JJH

iTrader: (1)

On my old TL-s, I never knew much about the DVD-A ELS system and what that all entailed. Today while driving my newest TL-s, my mp3 cord decided to stop working so I changed to the CD player input and saw that a disc was loaded so I decided to give it a listen because I thought it was something from the previous owner and what it turned out to be was an ELS promo demonstration disc for the DVD-A. All I can say is WOW. What a difference in sound quality over listening to something like a regular CD or even my Spotify premium through an auxiliary cord. Freaking awesome quality and really lets the system shine. I was amazed. If you haven't checked it out yet or don't happen to have that disc, I implore you to find yourself some DVD-A music and give it a try! You won't want to go back to regular! I know this is in the wrong section, but I wanted to get more eyes on it

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

i have the demo dvd too, it sounds pretty good for sure. i havent tried any other dvd-a discs though

JJH

iTrader: (1)

I intend to figure out how to burn some DVD-A discs.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Yep, they're fantastic. Too bad the format is dead.


Burning them will not guarantee you'll get discrete full surround.

JJH

iTrader: (1)

How come? I'm a wannabe audiophile, but never took the time to learn all about bitrates, quality, etc.

A SiQ TL

I've got the disc also. I love the track where they break down Grover Washington's Winelight. I just wish they would have put the whole song as the next track.





oh, and JJH

I hate cars

I loved the factory DVD-A disk, too bad I lost mine. It made the stock system sound better than a lot of aftermarket ones I've heard. The difference is huge. If that format was still alive I would have gone a different route with my upgrades. I would still have done the speakers and added a lot more power but I would not have used a processor, I would have kept 5.1 alive using the factory processing. I secretly hope it will get popular again bit I know that's not going to happen.

Adobeman

Yeah, It's almost as if it never really got "alive". Same for SACD.

Good luck with that these days. The "convenience audio market" (ipods, cell phones, streaming music) has really pretty much killed what was once called "audiophile". You can still find good stuff but you'll have to search beyond the box stores and the overpriced/over-marketed driver manufacturers. I gave up on it as priorities changed and now try and find the value spot in the middle. Sad but true is having all of my music on Google Play and phone wired directly into the car is so convenient, even if low quality, that I rarely even play discs in the car. But when I do play then I wonder why I don't more often.

As for the disks you can find them on ebay but it looks like they won't come cheap. (Note to self, sell mine when I no longer have the TL). If you want to make them then it's actually pretty simple. There's plenty of threads here on how to do it. Are you PC or Mac? If PC, what OS? (XP, 7, 8). If PC I have some things you can use. Even some test stuff I never linked on AZ (newer than the links in my sig). PM me if you want.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

welcome to 2004, Justin.......

bla8291

This is good and all, but you can't go wrong with a song played over AUX at a bitrate of 320 or higher. 192 is acceptable...I consider anything below that as poor quality. I always hear people saying that AUX quality is not as good, but then when I look at the source of their music, it's either YouTube at low quality, Pandora or similar set to low-quality, or an MP3 at 96 or 128 bitrate, which has that muffled sound to it.

I hate cars

I'm one of the few that still have a bunch of CDs. I have a 300 CD carrier full and a 50CD also full with my favorites. I just couldn't justify a near $10k system with the resolution it has and a crappy source.

If I ever go away from the stock HU, it's going to be for something that will take advantage of the SACD. With the equipment I have now and with a good tune, the difference should be very noticeable. That's part of the problem, it shows every flaw. Old recordings still sound great, you hear the flaws but that's ok. However, low resolution mp3s sound absolutely horrible, bad enough that it's worth it to have a bunch of CDs with me. I have a bunch of SACDs that I've bought over the years. I've thought about installing a headunit somewhere, where it's hidden and having it play into the aux port of my processor for when I want better sound quality. I have a ton of power because I love the dynamics it offers and I think I could really take advantage of the SACD.

JJH

iTrader: (1)

It's still 2 channel processing through - left and right. If it would process it in 5.1, that would be awesome.

I hate cars

To add to that, having an actual processor with TA and lots of other features allows you to get an actual sound stage. It's "hidden" in a just about all 2ch recordings but you need the processor to make it work. Nothing sounds like it's coming from the speakers, all sounds come from above the dash. You can sit in the driver's seat and pick out where the singer is standing and where each instrument is at. You can hear as the singer walks across the stage, you can hear each key on a piano as it moves from left to right or back and forth with different notes and with that you can picture the angle of the piano during the recording, etc.

However, it's not as good as 5.1 IMO. 2ch with a processor and a good tune is really good but you can't match the realizm of true surround sound. Plus the resolution seems higher on 5.1 and on a good system you can most definitely hear the difference even in a pretty good mp3 and a CD.

cam_2

TA?

It looks like SACD-capable head units are rare. If you are feeling ambitious you could try an old PS3 (www.ps3sacd.com).

Neil Young is trying to spark interest in high-res music. Saw this last week: http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/m...music/6509169/

Had a lot of problems with DVD-A, and I went at it from left, right, top and bottom, couldn't get any to play, then gave up. Sent a PM.

One of the previous owners lost the disc but not the case, go figure - I'll post in the Black Market for a replacement.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

God love Neil Young. He's always been a strong proponent of hi-res audio!

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Put together a nice home rig. Seriously. You can do things with a modest home set up that can't even be approached in the car. There is a good used market for mid-fi to hi-fi stuff and you can put together a really nice setup with out taking out a second mortgage.

There is a lot of hype out there when it comes to "Hi-Fi Audiophile" systems. Don't fall for it. Just remember, if you can hear it, you can measure it, and if you can measure it doesn't necessarily mean you can hear it.

Also, that is a great way to get a reference for truly good sound and give you a benchmark to build a car system.

Let me preface what I am about to say with this. I have almost all the files on my iPod in 320 kbps AAC. Also, about 90% of what I listen to is compressed audio. Plus, in a car that is moving down the road most of what it below is completely moot.

That said, a 320 kbps compressed file is not even in the parking lot of the same ballpark of an uncompressed DVD-Audio file. DVD-As can resolve 192kHz of frequency response and have S/N capability in excess of 110dB. 3 things with that; 1)most don't 2) even if they did, you can't hear that anyway 3)Format is dead so it really doesn't matter anyway, but it holds true for well recorded 2 channel material as well (although not up to 192kHz). But there is SO MUCH information on a track like that that simply doesn't exist on a compressed audio format. Also, an "aux" of any kind is usually going to include at least 1 extra D>A and or A>D conversion meaning that if the chip doing that conversion is of mediocre quality it effects the whole reproduction. Also, in most cases, if coming out of a headphone out of a portable device you are also feeding off of the headphone amp circuit in the device. And finally, if the original track is poorly produced, you are hosed from the jump. (google "loudness wars") So, actually yes, there are many instances where you can go wrong with a 192-320kbps audio file.

Unrelated, 5 channel is INCREDIBLY difficult to reproduce properly in a car. I've heard it done well twice. Both in cars that had the value of my house in multiples invested in them.

JJH

iTrader: (1)

I like to consider our home theater system relatively modest. We have , , and a . It sounds great, but honestly, the sound stage with this DVD-A disc was so much nicer.

bla8291

All good info. Just like you said though, most of that goes out the window in a car, with all the ambient noise coming from the road, the engine, other cars, wind, etc., unless listening to the music at a stand still in a quiet environment. Now it makes me want to try one of those demo DVDs.

Also, when I said "you can't go wrong", I of course know that things can go wrong, but I was just assuming that the song was properly produced/recorded, and everything else along the line is functioning as it should.

Adobeman

Well said. I agree about home systems big time. As a hobbyist today there is an incredible wealth of info and supplies available to build remarkable home systems that just wasn't available 20 years ago (remember HiFi stores?, many don't) . Especially if you are interested in, and capable of, building loudspeaker enclosures. You can follow well accepted plans (good for starters) or "go for it" (maybe as second round) with your own designs. High quality drivers and even crossover design services are available on any budget and can make a dramatic difference. You can even buy pre-made, hi quality, enclosures but that erodes savings and limits design. Considering the mark up on in-store loudspeakers is in the 300% to 500% range the savings can be dramatic and let you put more funds into the areas you can't build (display, amps, projectors, etc.)
Well said again. Every time I hear someone say 320 kbps mp3s sound "just as good as ...xyz" I know they have never really heard xyz to it's fullest extent. That said there's something to say for the convenience of having so much music on a portable device. My gripe isn't with informed convenience, as in , "I know it sounds worse but I accept that because of abc" but rather with "it sounds just as good so who needs quality stuff". And lets face it, for a geek, it can be lots of fun. Back in the day did I ever think I'd have all my music in the cloud, play it on an Android phone in the car, and process it with ViPER4Android Audio Effects? No Way !!! Does it sound as good as CD? No, but it's tons of fun!

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

I was able to put together that setup for a fraction of new. Built the speakers myself (have since painted the stands black), bought the pre-amp used, bought the amp broken and had it fixed at the manufacturer, bought the CD/DVD player ($1500 new) for $83 and fixed it my self by replacing the laser pickup for $15, and even made the cables myself (don't get me started on cable prices). All in all Ive got less in the whole setup than what the preamp/amp combo costs new.

I hate cars

What I don't understand is if you have a bunch of money into a sound quality system, why would you not want to use the best source within reason. With a 6 disk changer you can fit quite a bit of music in there. As I've upgraded and tuned, I feel that the source has become more important than ever. Bad recordings sound worse than ever, recordings that on the stock system you don't notice they're bad.

I've heard a studio copy of a song in the Magic Bus. John played a normal high quality recording and then be played this ultra high resolution recording which I believe was on a DVD disk and it was only one song that apparently used a good portion of the disk. The difference was not subtle. I turned my head while he switched the disks out and I could pick out the high res one every time.

I'm a sucker for dynamics and retaining SQ at any listening level. That's the only reason I have 1,200w to the front stage which I'm beginning to realize may not be enough. To be honest I'm getting ready to go with a 750/1 on each midbass and a bridged 600/4 on the midrange and another one on the tweeters. In my opinion this is not overkill if you want to accurately reproduce material with a 10-20db dynamic range at a reasonable output without clipping. I assume but I'm not sure the higher quality recordings have a greater dynamic range.

The other part to getting what I want out of my system and it really makes bad sources evident is time alignment. I didn't realize just how important it was until I finally got it in the ballpark. It can make the system sound more dynamic but especially more detailed with a seemingly higher resolution but you can really pick out low quality recordings.

I can honestly say I've matched an average home system in some ways which is something I never thought was possible.

Adobeman

True enough. I recon perhaps 100 or so multi-channel songs or maybe 400-500 2 channel songs on 6 DVDA. But I've sold out a bit when it comes to the car. I keep a stack of favorites in the changer but with thousands of songs in the cloud and streaming radio on tap I tend to use the phone as a source. I know the SQ isn't there but sometimes tuning to a streaming station playing new stuff I want to hear puts me in a better state of mind.

That's what I'm talking about ! Cables, ha, I hear you on that.

cam_2

Well said. While the TL ELS system sounds excellent, it's undermined by high road noise levels. On the other hand, a Mark Levinson in a Lexus LS430/460 is an excellent system in an exceptionally quiet car.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Eh....

Excellent is a bit strong

pohljm

like way way way strong

cam_2

It sounds like you think that the Mark Levinson is over-rated, so curious about your thoughts.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Poor sub bass response (especially at volume), and poor headroom. Also, overall volume leaves a bit to be desired.

And that is across the board. I have listened to pretty much all of the iterations of the Levinson systems across the model line for about 10 years.

Honestly, the only OEM "Premium" system I have been legitimately impressed with is the Dynaudio system found in some newer Volkwagens and Bentleys. Even then, it isn't that those systems can't be improved but the cost to do so becomes pretty high.

Kind of like it is pretty cheap to make a car that runs a 17.0 flat run a 16.5, however to make a car that runs 11.0 do a 10.5 is a whole different ballgame in terms of cost.

letsgomario

I bought my car used and I never had the pleasure of listening to the DVD audio demo. But I am very curious and I love music so I did some research and found DVD-Audio Solo from Cirlinca. I purchased the software and I make my own DVD-A. It is not difficult at all but you do have to be patient because you will be handling Gigabytes of music and it takes time to process it all and burn the discs. I love having 70 to 80 songs in one disc and selecting the "Random" feature so I never know what is coming next ... but I do know is good. The sound quality is very good. However, you cannot take a compressed MP3 file and expect to get high quality sound out of it. The software will try to enhance it but you are much better off saving your songs directly from the CD in its native format and NOT a compressed file and using that file to create your Audio DVD discs. You know what happens when you try to enlarge a picture that was shot with low resolution (or low pixel count), it degrades or becomes fuzzy as you try to enlarge it. Same thing for creating DVD-audio. I really love the sound and the convenience of having a bunch of music available to me in a single disc. No, I have not installed any aftermarket equipment to hook up my MP3 player or iPod but I don't really need to when I have DVD-A. Just my two cents.

cam_2

What kind of discs do you use? I've used Imation -R and some other brand +R but neither worked. I need try Verbatim.

Interesting. Can I assume that the ELS system doesn't impress you?

I hate cars

I think the DVD-A disks are a great way to pack a lot of CD quality recordings on one disk. However, you still won't have 5.1 surround. I suggest anyone who hasn't heard it try and find a factory disk. It's amazing sounding.

It's all about what you've heard. If a factory system impresses you, that's great and I'm not being sarcastic. I used to think the TLs system sounded good. Then I upgraded to Infinity and then to ID and there was an improvement. Mostly in output since I had triple the power but also in sound quality. Then one day I tried a Dynaudio 3-way, passively and it changed everything. I had no idea music could sound that good in a car and that was the beginning of the end for me. Now I have 1200w and almost $4,500 in speakers just on the fronts and I'm a couple months away from going to a different amp setup for 2,700w on the front stage. Not to get loud and be heard around the block but for the realism it brings to the music.

My friend bought his IS350 6 months after I bought my TL and his sounded a little better and had much better bass response. I remember being impressed with it. It has remained stock so I have something to gauge my system off of. When I hear his I wonder how it ever impressed me.

Believe me when I say I wish I had never upgraded. If it sounds good to you that's all that matters. It's like Blu-Ray. I was perfectly satisfied with DVD quality for years. I didn't think anything was missing at all. Then I got a good 1080p television and a few months later a Bluray player. Now I can't watch non HD movies. I literally don't watch anything that's non HD because it looks like crap to me. HD is cheap now but it's the same thing, don't get carried away and set you standards pointlessly high.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

No. But I'm jaded and a bit of an audio geek.

Nuhtles

This may be a serious noob question but is the DVD-a a completely different disc then lets say the DVD-r or DVD+r?

cam_2

Hi and welcome. Yes the disc is the same as the same as +/-R. I think that the consensus is that -R have a better chance of playing than +R. Poke around in the FAQ: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-audio-bluetooth-electronics-navigation-94/3g-tl-audio-electronics-faq-605299/

1995hoo

To try to explain this in as succinct a manner as possible:

(1) The physical shiny disc is essentially the same. Various users have reported better success creating their own DVD-A discs using DVD-R instead of DVD+R. I've always used -R because of such comments.

(2) The significance of the DVD-A aspect is the encoding used to store the information on the disc. To make a long story short, when you create your own DVD-A disc, you use software to translate all the music into a single computer file with a ".ISO" extension. Then you burn that .ISO file to a DVD-R or DVD+R disc, finalize the disc, and it may play in your TL or on another DVD-Audio player. (Depending on your software, the DVD-A creation software may handle the burning for you, or you may need to use something else. Any old software will do for the burning, because essentially you are just burning a file—although a very large file—to a shiny disc. I used to use Roxio for the burning because it came with my old PC.)

(3) DVD-Video discs that people use to watch movies and the like use a different encoding for the material on the disc. Hence, DVD-A discs will not play on most "DVD players" unless you see the same DVD-Audio logo you see on your TL's ELS stereo.


Somebody else asked earlier why burning your own DVD-Audio disc will not get you the full discrete surround sound, but nobody really gave a direct answer why. When you burn your own disc, basically the sound you get from that disc will be only as good as the sound you burn to it. In other words, garbage in, garbage out. If you do take a two-channel recording and use a DVD-A multichannel encoder, you may get multichannel sound, but it will be artificial because the music wasn't mixed that way—it will be more like using Dolby Pro Logic to simulate surround-sound from a VHS tape, or perhaps like that ghastly fake stereo EMI used on the butchered American Beatles albums in the early 1960s.

You can burn hi-rez material to a DVD-Audio disc. I've purchased high-rez 24-bit/96-kHz .FLAC albums from HDTracks.com and burned those files directly to DVD-Audio. They sound great. They're not multichannel, but I don't care.

If you want to hear an excellent multichannel DVD-Audio disc, buy the Beatles' Love album. Music Direct has the set with a CD and a DVD-Audio disc for $24.99. It's well worth it, especially if you know the Beatles' music really well:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7792-th...dvd-audio.aspx

cam_2

Much better than my explanation

What discs have you used? My couple of attempts have not played properly.

1995hoo

It's varied over the years. The ones I have right now are Verbatim DVD-R discs. I special-ordered them from Staples.com because I wanted LightScribe discs and my local store didn't have that type. My PC has a LightScribe drive and I use that to burn a disc label to allow me to tell easily what's on a disc, given how much music I can fit on a DVD-Audio disc. Yeah, I could just use a Sharpie or some such, but the LightScribe looks better. I prefer not to use a label that sticks on the disc for fear of jamming the player.

There could be any number of reasons why you might be having problems. Typically if I've had a problem, it's either been due to a bad burn or a compatibility issue with the source files. I've found a few things over the years:

(1) I disable my screen saver and close memory-intensive applications like web browsers and the like before I start the DVD-creation process.

(2) Burn at a slow speed even though it takes longer. I don't know why, but it often seems to resolve problems. Start the process and leave your PC for a while to go get something to drink or take a dump or whatever, basically some activity that will keep you from doing anything on your PC while the process is underway.

(3) If I want to transfer CDs to a DVD-Audio, I rip the CDs into dedicated directories on a second 2 TB hard drive and I use .WAV encoding. Back when I had a Vista PC I did NOT use Vista to do the ripping because it never encoded the .WAV files correctly (no idea why), so I started using CDex and I still use that now.

(4) Always "finalize" the disc (some people refer to this as "closing" the disc).


I've had quite a few posts on the DVD-Audio creation issue over the years, so if you search my posts you should be able to find a lot of thoughts. I use Cirlinca's software to create my discs and it works very well. On my old Vista PC I used Adobeman's software, but I had a few compatibility issues on my current PC so I sprung for the Cirlinca software instead.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Well written, hoo!

cam_2

Thanks. I tried the Cirlinca software with FLAC and Adobeman's software/scripts with WAV from FLAC, but the discs would play a few seconds or minutes, skip to the next song, and keep skipping songs. It might have been a disc issue. I researched disc quality but gave up before trying good ones (Verbatim); I used Imation -R and another brand +R. They were all burned at a slow speed (I think) and closed/finalized. I'd have to try again with Verbatim and an external hard disk.

pohljm

I have a stack of Memorex -R that have been working.

1995hoo

I don't know why, but some tracks simply refuse to play, period, no matter what I do. I wish I knew why that happens.