So this was done by accident. I lifted up the passenger side floor mat with the system running and noticed a huge change in sound. I figured the mid might be reflecting off of the bottom of the floor mat so I tried it with the carpet side facing the mid and got the same result. Long story short, if I divided off the foot well by lifting the floor mat or later a piece of cardboard, the mids came to life with more detail, better vocals and a better stage. Vocals were definitely better but the detail I gained was impressive. I had the GF hold the cardboard in place and move it without telling me while I had my eyes closed and I got it right 100% of the time.

My mic for the RTA is with a friend right now so I can only go by ear unfortunately. I started by opening the passenger door. No change, midrange still drastically changed by dividing off the floor well. All it takes is placing an object in the footwell anywhere from 6" to 1' in front of the speaker. The farther away, the less of a change it makes.

Next, I removed the under dash cover, the hard plastic cover that covers the blower motor. The second I removed it, I knew I found the problem. It instantly sounded the same as when I blocked off the foot well. I tested it by blocking off the foot well and no change anymore.

I now have even more detail in the midrange, vocals are improved, and the stage is more focused. I think this is why I've always had the best results high passing the mids at 1,600hz instead of a more normal 2-300hz. I've had to cut 1-3khz. I need to do a retune and I might try a 300hz highpass and see what happens.

If anyone has kick panel mounted mids, this might apply.

 

Interesting. My damn under dash cover keeps falling down so maybe I'll just leave it off if it'll help in a 2-way. I'll do a little investigating this tomorrow and see what happens. I'm sure it'll have a large effect too as most people run their door mounted mids up to around 2-3kHz.

 

I'm very interested in your results. I saw no difference from the midbass speaker other than maybe a tiny bit less midbass but I'm not completely sure. I don't know if its frequency based or speaker location based. Let me know what happens with yours.

I've been playing with it for a while now. Did a calibration using the same crossover points and wow, the stage is better than its ever been, listening to Norah Jones actually produced sounds I've never heard befor and what sounds like a mic moving and definitely a chair moving on the floor. I noticed a few of these new details while writing a post on DIYMA so I wasn't paying super close attention but I noticed them anyhow. The realism is just unbelievable. It not only sounds live, you can hear every pick of the guitar every breath, even saliva lol. The midrange is more responsive to eq as well.

I literally feel almost as large of difference as when I first installed my first Dyn set. The Esotar mid is truly amazing. I liked it before but now I can honestly say its 10x better than the 142 mid and hands down the single best speaker I've ever heard.

The question now is this a common TL thing when the mids are mounted in the kicks? Maybe Jerry can give an opinion.

 

If I'm ever in Cali...I need to hear your setup. Or Jerry's setup if I ever head North a little ways. I don't want to invest any more money in this car as I likely wont have it much longer.

I'm about to head outside to reset my gains, do some EQ, etc and I'll try to remove the under-dash covers and see what happens in a 2-way.

 

Now that you don't care about advice from the "pros" and just want what sounds best, try those MR in the pillar. The stage does not get narrow like you have heard and it sounds better without all of the crap in the car getting in the way (like your legs, feet, jeans, etc.). I won't promise that you like it better, but I can almost promise that you will not feel that the experiment was a waste of time.

 

How hard would it be to make a-pillars that fit a tweeter and a 3" midrange?? I definitely don't have those skills, but if someone made a few and then sold them...I'd be all over it

 

It would be pretty hard for beginners like me an u but I paid to have mines made. The most important thing would be how it sounds over how it looks.

 

It would be possible, The enclosure requirements are incredibly small, just big enough to clear the magnet and basket or IB as well.

My whole thing is stealth. Right now from the outside looking in, there's no evidence of a system. I've been house hunting for over a year now and still haven't found anything. I need to accept I may be in an apartment for a while and I can't mount them that way until I move.

The narrow stage thing came from DIYMA and right after that I listened to one of the class runner up guys with Focal Be in the pillars. His stage was very narrow and that was the biggest problem he was facing. It was incredibly focused but all sound was coming from a 4" area.

That might have been and probably was coincidence. I definitely don't believe every car with pillar mounted mids has a narrow stage.

You're right though, I might listen to advice but I tend to experiment on my own because many of the so called "experts" have steered me wrong.

I've learned what sounds best to me and for daily driving at high levels isn't necessarily best to the judges. I know of several people that admit some of the crossover points used for competition would end up blowing several of the drivers if the volume was cranked like I do every day and it seems like almost all of them that use a street driven car have a comp tune and a street tune.

I could temporarily mount the mids on the pillars in less than 30 minutes. Maybe next weekend if I get the chance and I'll revive this thread when I do.

 

When you get them up there, the only thing that you have to worry about is the best xover point for the drivers. Slope can also be optimized.

You won't fight the awful dynamic of different locations, distances, materials (huge), geometry, etc. The only real reason to get a 3-way set, IMO, is to have everything over 250-500hz (or whatever your pleasure) coming from the same place with no obstruction between you and the drivers.

Some double sided tape can tell you all that you need to know.

Comp guys, and models, also cannot factor in the difference in noise coming from the kick vs. the windshield when driving - they test their cars in park. My cars are always quieter near the acoustic glass... at least until the seals & weatherstrip start to wear after 10+ years and a trip to the moon in mileage.

 

There definitely seems to be a difference between real life and comps. I was thinking about competing just for the heck of it but daily driving comes first. My car is extensively sound deadened with not only Damplifier but Luxury Liner Pro sound blocker. Not a whole lot of noise in the floor area. I do need to replace the door seals, especially the rears.



I'll try just about anything now, even if it's said it won't work.

 

(was doing taxes the last couple days).....I just read this and I can say I have never seen a change when putting items down there, but I can play with it and let you know.

With that said, I carpeted the dash cover (the one you referred to) on both sides to stop the possibility of reflections from underneath the dash. I never heard it without it being carpeted because I knew that has cause major reflection problems for others in the past.

As far as pillar mounting the midrange....you can, but if you are having problems with reflections, mounting them in the pillars will only further reflect off the windshield, dash, side window, and decrease your width and create problems integrating with your midbass. I used to have mine in my firebird off the a-pillar on-axis and it sounded MUCH better when moving to the kicks in this car. As you can see on DIYMA, the trend is moving away from a-pillar mids and going to either the kick or dash mounted (kirk's car).

But you can definitely experiment and see what you like best. I would carpet the bottom of the dash and see what you think first.

 

When you angle mount them, you can avoid nearly all of the dash and windshield as long as you don't wedge them all the way back. Side windows can be a problem depending on how you angle them, but the direct path to the people can vastly outweighs this. I do not recommend bouncing them off of the dash - this have almost never worked for me.

When I said pillar mounted, I meant next to the tweet - wherever you have it. The dash would have nearly the same effect.

 

Off-axis response. You can never avoid the dash and windshield when pillar or dash mounting midrange speakers. Can't be done. With off-axis response you will get lots of late reflections coming off the plastic and glass. I have heard very few cars sound good like this and that was even at finals.

The newest thing is to cut into the dash and mount the speakers on angle with the windshield. I've never tried it and personally never will (don't want to ruin an entire dash or rebuild it from scratch). Kicks give the least possible reflections from hard surfaces while keeping the stage very wide and creating more depth in the sound stage.

One of the other problems with the dash is the instrument cluster hump....very hard to avoid.

 

So even if you took a good on axis tweeter and mid and mounted them in the a-pillar on-axis..that would still have reflections? Granted I know you'll always have reflections, but if they're pointed towards the center of the car or middle of drivers headrest then I would think that the reflections wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm not stating anything here...just a simple question lol. You guys have heard MANY more systems so I'm still learning

 

Yes. Off axis sucks when trying to put speakers up high. Hard for most to tame. Now if you had the right speakers, ring radiator tweeter and mid that has terrible off axis response, then you would have better luck!

 

We had this discussion when we talked about how you can get so much less off-axis reflection with inverted dome vs. dome just by design - off axis at 5 degrees is nothing like off axis at 90 degrees and these cannot be lumped in together. For me, the ultimate driver would be perfect from -50 to 50 degrees (2d mode) and then fall off like a brick afterward... if only this could happen. With my Be 3.5s, the output is so diminished after 60 degrees that as long as you mount them facing you forward enough so that 60 degrees gets into the visors or headliner, then there is very little hitting the windshield or dash. For me, this is about where the stock tweeter holes are, or forward 3/4 of an inch. Academically, there is 90 degrees to be concerned with, but in reality there is not much actually there after some point (results will vary).

As I have said before... take your ENCLOSED driver on about a 30' cord and lay it on a table in the middle of your yard (nothing around). Use your ears, or a even a cheap-o db meter, along with your protractor (you know that you have one in your shirt pocket) and see where the sound really starts to fall off. Then use this angle in your install. Nothing that you get from manufacturer, or from a website about somebody else's install, can help more than this simple test.

I would love to know where the dyns are effective. I never tested the set that I had.

The side windows can be an issue, depending on install. ...another topic for a different day.

I am not saying that one way is any better than another, or that people all like one way over another, but you can eliminate a lot the dash and windshield if you plan/install accordingly. Ultimately, you are always trading one evil for another in these small boxes called cars.

 

I absolutely agree 1 million percent. Also, each car handles thing differently due to the shape of the dash, angle of the glass, etc, etc. I am speaking from experience, but have not experienced every car out there to know. The very BEST practice is to try it. Experiment. Hell, I have heard of people placing speakers in places you would never think would sound good and it would turn out amazing. The things with car audio, everything is a trade off and nothing works for everyone!!

 

^ which is why you see me on this board and not on DIYMA, or the like, unless I am looking to buy something (looking for some Phass or Thesis 3-ways). You all have the same car as me, so I at least know that we have some basis for comparison. This is why I always stress to people to consider the source and the ability to apply their situation dynamically to yours when asking for advice. Most people are not dynamic enough, IMO.

 

^^^BTW, I am a dealer for PHASS.