I hate cars

No tweaking needed with IB. With a box, the box itself acts as the SS filter. With IB, you don't have that air spring to cut off the really low notes so you end up with huge excursion. Add the SS filter and you will be fine. Many amps have them built in and all processors have them. You can't really tune an IB besides basic eq.

Picking the right sub is very important. The AEs require zero equalization. In car response is flat from 20hz to 250hz. Most 15s will have a flatter response. Smaller subs tend to get peakier when used in IB. I loved the way my 12W6 sounded but I had to cut it 3db in the 50hz range where the AEs require none.

I hate cars

I was just thinking about this. An IB setup is capable of playing much lower with less power than sealed and even sometimes ported. With a box, you're stuck with whatever tuning frequency you have. With IB, you can extend the low range or cut it with a SS filter. You're electronically filtering it instead of mechanically so you have that adjustability.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

^ SS filter would help with the fear of over-driving the subs to thermal max or over excursion. Going sealed or ported will be easier to do, no doubt about that. You will lose more trunk space with sealed though, and quite a bit with ported.

With a budget of $750 for sub(s), amp and install, I'd be looking into a used amp without a doubt. You can get STEALS on used amps that will be just as good as new. Hell, even used subs are fine! I think you'll save a ton of money by doing most of the install yourself. We can help you through it AND you'll have that feeling of accomplishment. That money needs to be put into the system with that budget. If you don't feel comfortable doing say..the amp install, call a shop and ask them how much to install an amp kit and run everything to the trunk (or under seat if you wanted that).

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't sealed have the possibility of playing the lowest?? I thought I read that somewhere. It might not play it with the most authority, but it represents the type that can play lowest. Who knows...something I saw over at DIYMA.

OP- all you'd need to do is set the SS filter on the amp (or processor if you went that route later on) and you're golden. No over excursion or thermal limit will be reached to harm the sub.

I just went with a 3.06 cuft sealed box for my subs and they box fits all the way up to the rear seat. I have it about 3-4" off the seats but it leaves me plenty of trunk space to work with. I'll take a pic later if you'd like, but be fore warned....the wiring I have going in is HORRIBLE! Until I decide how to mount my amps and 3sixty.2, they are just laying in the trunk with wires everywhere haha. Woops.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Setups...(b/c I'm bored and done with class for the day!)


A.
(2) 10" SSA Dcon = $230
Amp (600ish RMS-- 300/sub) = $200-250
Install/$ Left Over = $300ish

Sealed: .75 cu.ft.
Sealed: .90 cu.ft. optimal
Ported: 1.00 cu.ft. @ 28-33 hz
Ported: 1.25 cu.ft. @ 28-33hz opt.

- Dcon's like ported from what I hear (not sure if they don't sound good in sealed or if most people get these to be loud) so you'll need a 2.5 cuft box in this setup. Not too bad


B.

(2) 12" SSA Dcon = $250
Amp (600ish RMS-- 300/sub) = $200-250
Install/$ Left Over = $300ish

Sealed: .90 cu.ft.
Sealed: 1.20 cu.ft. optimal
Ported: 1.75 cu.ft. @ 28-33 hz
Ported: 2.25 cu.ft. @ 28-33hz opt.

- In this setup, you'd need a 4-4.25cuft box...that's pretty damn big for our trunk. 12's would be nice for $20-30 more but I'm not sure if you'd be able to give them the proper ported box without losing 90% of the trunk


C.
(2) 10" Dayton HO = $270
Amp (1200rms-- 600/sub) = $250-300
Install/etc = $200ish

- The Dayton HO requires a smaller airspace ported AND sealed than the SSA Dcon it seems, but it's also a bit more expensive and higher powered. Supposedly they sound very with the ability to get plenty loud. Seems like most go sealed with these at roughly 1cuft/sub


D.
(2) 12" Dayton HO = $310
Amp (1200-1400rms-- 650ish/sub) = $300
Install/etc = $140


E.
(1) 12" SSA Icon = $265
Amp (1200rms) = $250-300
Install/etc = 240



Other Options:
- 1 15" SSA Icon = $275
- (2) 10" Sundown SA-10's = $390
- (2) JL 12w6's = $350-400
- 1 12" or 15" FI Q = $275-300

I hate cars

In IB, the thermal limit is the last thing you have to worry about unless you're playing only 50hz and up. You'll hit mechanical limits long before thermal. At 20hz, it takes under 200w to hit the mechanical limit of my 15s. By 40hz you can feed it the full 500w if you want.

IB is like a sealed box in a way. It will play lower with less power. In theory a sealed box can go just as low but output will be so low you won't be able to hear it. The lower you go in a sealed box, the more the air spring will fight you. In IB, it will go low as easy as it will go high. There's nothing that's going to get you more low end more effortlessly than IB. I'm thankful I got to use the W6 in every popular configuration. Even compared to the large sealed box, IB had more low end by a long shot and with much less power.

With less power required you get less power compression, distortion, etc. You don't get any weird box resonances, and IB is usually more accurate.

FWIW, a SS filter is required for ported boxes as well. Once you go below tuning frequency you lose the reinforcement and it acts like an IB.

I hate cars

If going sealed or ported, I highly recommend the 12W6. It's still one of the best sounding subs I've ever heard. It's close enough to the AEs that I would have no issues running 3 of them in IB. I could exchange either and be happy.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Agh... I meant mechanical limits. My bad lol. They will reach xmax quick!

Btw, got the new...newer box in and it looked great. Got them in today and they sound much better. I feel like everything is smoother, digs a little deeper with more authority, slightly more punchy. Just all around smoother and a better sound. I haven't got to play with them too much but I'm sure that'll come shortly as I need to go play with my RK6 x-overs. Might put the ID CXS tweeters in there and see how they sound.

Oh and also, I up'd the gain for the mids a bit and dropped the x-over to 70hz w/ 24db slope....wowzers. I'm not sure if it's a clean sound as I haven't heard enough "accredited" nice SQ-setups to know what I'm after but they can surely punch the shit out of your leg and body. I'm getting almost no sub localization besides a slight punch in the back of seat on certain songs.


...what's funny is that I was just like the OP about a year ago haha. I wanted to spend about $700 on a system. Shit

eggyhustles

It should. You can make the box a touch smaller if you up the power. Minotour would be fine. In this specific case, i'd probably just save up for a dreadnought and use that to run it all.

...that is if this is gonna be a 2.1 setup.

Aaron Clinton

Hey Acurazine!, thanks to all those who had great things to say about our speakers.

Hi ya Eggy!

Ethernaut05 has been emailing with me back and forth and I have been helping him look at some of our options. As for power, the little IA 5.1 is enough power for daily on a pair of Dcon 10's due a few different things. My usual POV is try to make the most efficient system possible, making it less strain on the electrical and less strain on the wallet etc., not to mention greater power is usually the least effective way to gain output and all the IA amps are ratted conservatively. To add to that, the Dcon's are quite efficient, especially when ported.

Based on the emails Ethernaut05 (Jeff) has seemed like sheer peak output was not top priority, and space was more an issue. That is why I was leaning towards the smaller 10's in our smaller suggest ported enclosure design, along with a small foot print amplifier.

There are a number of customers that have jumped on our Sundown SAX-125.2 + (2) Dcon 10D4's special, and have really been happy with the results, especially for the money. The SAX-125.2 is pretty much a 500 watt @ 4 ohm mono, class-A/B amp, so that is plenty of power for daily needs for a pair of Dcon's ported.

Now the ZED was mentioned, here is where my lifer ZED fan bias may distort my response a little , but the Minotaur is one of the best small format class-D mono blocks on the market. You are really going right to the premier level with that. ZED branded amplifier's have always been at the top, with out having the Sinfoni or McIntosh uber elite price tags. I can attest to the Leviathan being an unreal amplifier, everyone who has left feedback on the new ZED model's performance has had nothing but glowing things to say.

Side note: I believe we have one more Dreadnaught in SSA stock handy. Also, please excuse me if I don't answer topics on here super quickly as I am already spread way too thin across the net and struggle to keep up with all the forums. :p

eggyhustles

The owner of SSA himself

*bows* lol

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Hey Aaron, nice of you to join us!! Always a pleasure to see owners that are behind their products and active within the community. You sure as hell won't see that from the "big box store" names!

I got lazy for a bit and didn't check to see what the rated was on the 125.2. If it does 500 @ 4ohms and can give each dcon roughly 250, that'll be a very nice budget setup OP. After install and box, you should be right at the $750 and it'll be PLENTY loud for you. SQ should be darn good for that budget too!

What do these little dcon guys like to be ported at?? I mean is the SQ still there when tuned low? I wish I could go to a show where I could hear all these different subs and combos. I hate not knowing! lol

eggyhustles

Depends on the goal and setup.

Usually wanna stay in the ballpark of 28-33hz

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Well it seems like he's going after SQ and not taking up a ton of space. Wondering if some 12" Dayton HO's sealed would be better SQ-wise than 10" dcons? Or maybe even a single 15" sealed

I hate cars

An IDQ15 in a sealed box would be nice for SQ. Small box requirement and great SQ.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

possibly hard to find though right?? I was searching earlier and couldn't find them...just to see what their going for. The FI Q seems to get a lot of love for being a good SQ sub that can get plenty loud. I'm sure a 15" Q sealed would be pretty solid. JDA has a 12" q I believe...maybe he will chime in

Ethernaut05

Ha! The Noob (me) brought the owner of SSA in to our lil' playgroup! cool... that definately speaks volumes for the product.. IMHO. Waiting to hear back from Audible Customs (Aaron's recommended vendor for enclosures) they have the dimensions on there for the box...I think it's actually not bad; quite doable. Now..to find preowned amps!!! Pre owned subs??? And fyi I have gone back and read some of your first posts and ya..guess we were all noobs once!

I hate cars

I'm getting rid of my Infinity Beta Digital 300 soon. It's rated at 1,000w into 2ohm and actually puts out 1,300w. I wouldn't ask more than $50 for it since it's old and does not have a crossover built in. It was NIB 3 years ago, I took it out of the wrapping but it's still old regardless.

I'm also getting rid of my AE IB15s as soon as the SBP15s come in.

eggyhustles

so the beta will do 500 @ 4 ihc?

I hate cars

I just had to look it up again, info is hard to find on it.

It does 1000@4ohm bridged. It was measured at 1,100 so it slightly exceeds rated power. No built in crossover. Just a gain and a "Q" control.

eggyhustles

that will be plenty for the dcons

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

500 per for dcons..nice. Can't beat that bargain OP!! Very nice budget setup. IHC, is there any way to call AE and see when your subs might be ready?

geekybiker

I'd be interested in those when that happens...

I hate cars

My order just got processed lol. What's that, 2 months to process the order. I think we're right on track for another 5 month delivery.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Haha wow! That's just retarded. At this point, I think the peace of mind and CS behind the product would steer me away from AE. That's just dumb to take that long. I mean no way in hell should it take that long. No matter what problems he had in the past.

Like Geeky...might be interested in those IB15's when that day comes. Although I'm really starting to like this sealed setup as it doesn't take up too much room at all and sounds good and punchy but can get real low with authority

I hate cars

I'm glad you like it. Have you had any more seat time with the larger box?

AE is annoying as hell. I just about filed legal action on them the last time. Now I'm expecting a long wait and I already have the IB15s so it's no big deal. Last time I had already sold the W6s and had no subs which is why I bought the Tempest X for a while.

They are VERY worth the wait but it's the promise of 3-4 weeks and taking 5 months that makes me mad. If they said 5 months in advance I would have no issues with them. You are getting a product that the owner of the company hand builds and refuses to let anything out the door that's sub par.

I know it's easy to say your newest product is the best ever. I've been guilty of that in the past. But if you heard these things I think the wait wouldn't bother you so much. They can be so delicate and detailed where you can barely tell they're contributing when called upon and have impact unlike anything else when demanded. I've never heard a sub that can do absolutely everything perfectly. You know how normally even though your sub might sound good on every type of music, it has one type that it does best. These don't. They're just as great on classical, country, rap, rock, etc. That's why if the OP is willing, it's not a bad idea to get a cheap sub for now and get these on order. I know it sucks to have to do that and I hate their business practices as much as anyone else. There's no excuse but I think John knows there will always be demand for the best no matter how terrible the business practices are. Or another way of saying it, he knows he has us by the balls.

Aaron Clinton

Thanks for the welcome. Being a small, build in the USA to order, mostly on line only brand, I feel I need to do everything I can to inform or help in any regard to our products. Only problem is trying to keep up with all the questions all over the net. The 125.2 has been tested to do well above ratted, the issue is currently in the industry, the mind set is only class-D for sub duty.

As for the Dcon's ported, taking into consideration of cabin gain and how they spec out along with a numerous different installs, 32-34hz is a nice sweet spot. You could go up into the upper 30's and see a little boost in output with out much change in the response curve. Personally, I don't like tuning much above 33hz, regardless of sub woofer, in my daily installs.

Sound quality, when porting the Dcon takes no downward turn. There are a few people who have gone from the IDQ to the Dcon and loved the increase in output with no loss of clarity. I need to sit down and have a session with both drivers in the same install back to back to speak from my own experience. (We had a couple of IDMax to Icon converts too , to be up front, part of it was price advantage in addition to the performance)

In terms of hearing our speakers, that is our greatest obstacle, because I can't say stroll on down to your local big box store and have a go. Though, I would not really want that anyway, as we would have to sacrifice a lot of quality and performance to meet the profit margins they want.

Aaron Clinton

The Dayton is an excellent option, the Dcon also comes in a 15.

Ethernaut05

If I do this I do it..I don't think I can do a temp set-up. Aaron at SSA is, behind the scenes, making me an offer I cannot refuse if I do the DCON pair AND the Minotaur together (both new) It's obviously a great setup and one you ALL pretty much agree will sound (remember I'm not an audiophile, yet) great.

I worked last night, so I have all day to scour the net to find another amp that may be cheaper that will have ALL those things that the ZED has, crossovers, eq, etc. (i'm not even sure) but it seems to the noobish mind that the higher end amps pretty much smooth out and control the quality and volume of the subs and take a lot of the guess work out. That may be money well spent for me. Audible Customs can make a nice side ported enclosure 2.5 cubic feet
35.75 square inches of port
tuned to 32 hertz
24.25" wide x 12.5" tall x 26.5" deep
for a great price...I'm looking on AZ now for a nice photo-walkthrough on a basic sub install with a full out build list, including wires, tools, etc etc...

Still worried cuz the shop told me they would fix the problem of the internal Acura mic that needs to be disabled but still maintain full bluetooth.

IB sounds freaking amazing....near perfect sound for less money MORE space..its a win win...but the AE product wait and service blow..I do realize it's a golden goose so you stick with it. Here; on the other hand if I give up the 2.5cu ft. I have the owner of SSA personally giving me a discount and writing me personal LONG emails within AN HOUR!!! WOW...SSA..Aaron..that's just cool to me.

Ethernaut05

Dang...!! Just measured out my trunk again and the Audible Custom box for dual DCON 10s puts the depth at 24" and leaves me less then 15"!!!! that's not even a case of beer!!! IHC you think I can buy your AE IB3s??? IB may just be the trick if I really do have to sacrifice uber-space here.

eggyhustles

how about 1 icon sealed?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if you told them the wrong dimensions but that box isn't very wide or tall at all! That's your problem. We can go a little wider and that will bring that depth in. and height can be up around 15" to 15.5". Here's the dimensions of my new sealed box and it's length is PERFECT. Fits rights up snug next to the rear seats without hitting those little humps that come out on either side.

17"D x 32"W x 14"H


I'm sure if you really wanted more trunk space and it was slightly wider, you could cut a little on the trunk liner to make it not stick out and bend back a tad for the box to sit down. Hopefully you get what I'm saying. I'll take pics soon. Anyways, here's a few box plans that I've used before. I hadn't ever built a box but I built a very nice ported box with just me and another person. It wasn't very hard at all and all the materials cost me $50-70 (that's enough materials, though not MDF board, for another box to two also!). 3/4" MDF can be found at your local Home Depot, Lowes, or hardware store.

ROE Box Page
http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/en...-box-page.html

--- I built the first box in Post #23 and it came out perfect. My write is in one of my big threads on this site. I've got a list of materials you need, and a walk-through!! I've gotta go to class but I can find it for you later if you can't find it. Let me know


SRT Forums Box Page
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f40/...56k-no-435910/




I'm also with Eggy now. I think going with 1 12" or 15" Icon would be perfect! Same price as 2 dcons but should get louder or just as loud and sound better. I'm impressed with SSA and Aaron so I'll definitely be trying them soon/next. That Icon looks tempting if my w6's ever give in (knock on wood!).

I hate cars

I fully understand. Customer service goes a long way and SSA seems to be the exact opposite of AE. There's no doubt those subs would sound great in your car and I'm sure you're going to get a great deal. I know that would be hard for me to pass up.

With AE pretty much out of the question due to lead time, it seems like your decision is space and an IB sub like Fi or lose a little space for a great SSA sub in a box that would be a drop in.

I'm guessing Aaron does not think any of his subs are suitable for IB use?

geekybiker

I was kind of wondering that since the video of the 15's list them as "free air"

Aaron Clinton

We do not have any models specifically designed for just IB, the demand is just too small to for us at this time to afford to have a dedicated IB model.

One obstacle we have explaining to customers, is that we have a few limitations because of our VERY high build costs (built to order in the USA is about as expensive as it gets, currently I have two model lines waiting until we have the capital to release them, one has only reached prototype and the other is floating around in the synapse connections). But that also gives us more flexibility then the monster brands.

Now with that said, a few of our drivers are very IB friendly, meaning spec wise they map out fairly well in IB, especially the larger models.

The Dcon 15 is getting a decent amount of IB attention from the DIYma crew, and the Xcon 18 loves the big enclosures. If Jeff's perspective box design is not what he wants to do, the Dcon 15 is a good sealed or IB option.

(Jeff I forgot to mention in email that we already have a few free 3D Google Sketch up models of enclosures for our sub woofers available, here is the dual 10 Dcon ported: http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/i...category_id=22).

Side note, there is always those drivers that do not spec out for a certain alignment, but some times they just work out.

Aaron Clinton

Which video? A number of people upload videos and I never know that they are their until they tell me, or I take time out to scour Youtube.

I hate cars

I would love to see someone do one of your 15s or 18s IB.

Just the fact that you build these in the US would make me buy from you. I had no idea. I don't mind the added expense for made in the USA products and practice this whenever I can. If no one else does, I'll try one of your larger drivers IB when the time comes. I've always wanted a pair of 18s and I think I could squeeze a pair in the GN at an angle.

I fully agree with you on the IB specs. I tried a Tempest X which seemed perfect for IB and it was ok... if you only play 40hz and below. The IB15s with similar specs couldn't sound more different. Sometimes you just have to try it (or model it). I got an e-mail back from JL audio saying my 12W6 is not suitable for IB use and it turned out to be one of the best sounding setups I've every owned.

I can imagine the headache of trying to explain to people the power limitations and how to setup IB subs so they don't xmech too easily. It would probably be a warranty nightmare.

Aaron Clinton

We are working on the made in America advantage a little more. If you notice, our Xcon and Zcon back plates have a new addition. The Icon will follow suit shortly. I hope it is ok for me to post a picture for an example: [img]http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/images/products/2011/xcon/10/XCON-10_03.jpg[/mg]

Aaron Clinton

I hate cars

That would look awesome especially in an IB setup that would show it off!