boe_d

While there are many reports that getting a hybrid may never pay off in gas savings, people may get them for numerous reasons such as - -

1 Reducing dependence on foreign countries

2 Reducing trips to the gas station - save time

3 they might be more environmentally friendly (depending on the batteries of course - some newer ones don't have to be thrown away - they can be recycled)

4 even though you may not save money in the long run, just tired of paying so much for gas - emotional response.

5 fear that gas prices will soon exceed $4 per gallon - making them actually a financially sound investment.

6 potential to drive in the HOV lane (MPG requirements vary and some states are considering letting you pay a fee if your vehicle doesn't meet them)

I'm sure there are others but these come to mind for me. For some reason even though I've pointed out that there may not be any savings in vehicle cost vs. gas expenditure I'm sure someone is dying to post that fact again.

I'm not saying they need to make just a hybrid, they could make a hybrid, S type and so on. I'm only interested in the hybrid.

athlon03

sure but y not just get a prius

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Not until the ROI is there. Hybrids totally LOSE thier value around the 5 year point due to a massive (= multi thousand dollar) battery replacement requirement.
All the money you save in gas is lost in battery replacement at that point.

But alas, it will probably be the norm in a few years. Buying a high milage car used to be buying it after the timing belt was replaced... Soon it will be when the batteies are replaced.

subinf

Saving at the pump is not the only reason people buy hybrids.

boe_d

I don't like the dash (or lack there of) on the prius, I want a more pickup (willing to sacrafice some MPG). I prefer the NAVI in the Accord (probably will be in the 2007 TL) but everyone has their own opinions on what NAVI they like.

Basically I really like the Acura TL but would like a few things changed. It is one of my top picks by a large margin but I'd like some improvements before I trade in my current TL.

For reasons listed above, I'd like something with better MPG than the current TL. I don't need it to have any more power (not saying I would complain if it had more) but I'd rather have more MPG than more HP than the 06. I don't need the pickup of the TL type S rumored to be released this year. I test drove the Accord hybrid and it had adequate power but lacked the refinement in the TL - in my opinion of course.

boe_d

PS - regarding the prius -
Rumors about the new plug in/improved lithium cell Prius (85 MPG) lead me to believe that the Acura could get about over 40 MPG (pulled out of the air) if it was designed with some similar hybrid technology without reducing HP or torque.

subinf

^-I think you have taken a pretty good approach to your future purchase. You have identified what you want to see in a car and are not willing to pull the trigger until you are happy. I think there are a lot of people that will deal with the "i wish it had..." mentality. I admire your patience.

That being said, my 6spd gets much better gas mileage than the 2nd gen TL we have. I dont think its enough to sway you, but I'm happy with the increase.

boe_d

Yes and that is why I mentioned the new lithium batteries that can be recycled - not as expensive to replace. And again if you read the first post - it ISN'T just about saving money. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

boe_d

Thanks - can't tell you how much I'd love to buy an 07 to replace my 01 but I'm going to TRY and wait for the hybrid rumored for the 09 (08) release. I won't wait for more leg space in the rear as I doubt that may happen in the next 5 years. I think they should have a new Navi by the 09 release with better voice recognition (even better than the features in the 06 accord). I can live without the rear view camera although it would be handy - lots of parallel parking in CA and some of the sidewalks are about 10" high. It seems trivial but I would really really really like a cup cooler like the one in the new Chrysler. 35degrees - that would be perfect for my soda or water! I don't need the heater but I certainly wouldn't complain if that was the package.

I would be very happy with your car as well but since there is nothing technically wrong with my car, I can wait. I should buy new tires though

vkick

I would not be interested in a hybrid TL. I would rather see Honda make a 50 state legal diesel TL.

Diesel cars save more fuel than petro cars and hybrids, plus they are environmentally friendly. And the most important aspect of diesel powered vehicles is the torque. No more issues with a poor low end. Unfortunately, that still does not break the US's dependency on foreign oil.

I read that Honda will have diesel versions of the MDX, Odyssey and the Ridgeline by 2009. And if those diesels version sell well, then passenger cars will follow.

Ken1997TL

I dont see any point in a hybrid TL. Hybrids arent worth the cost, it'll take 10 or more years to recoup the added cost. In addition, you have to manufacture the batteries and dispose of them. I'd prefer VCM (variable cylinder management) or a refined diesel option.

As it is, I get up to 34 mpg on the freeway.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

In Washington DC it is... and they allow you to access the "High Occupancy Vehicle" lanes all by yourself legally to avoid some of the traffic. I know not one of the 17 or so hybrid owners I've met that give 2 shits about the rainbow that comes ot of the exhaust pipe. It's all about the HOV lanes and $3 gallon gas around here, THE largest hybrid market in the USA (according to the local Honda dealrs).

No, you made your question very clear, I gave you my 2cents on if I was interested in a TL hybrid. I'm not going to buy a car that costs more to maintain, increases complexity, increases cost, and reduces performance. Ive heard of these new lithium batteries, but have seen noting indicative of less maintenence/cheaper costs. That's a long way away.

Did you consider an Accord Hybrid?

I came from a VW Jetta TDI (diesel). That thing rocked. 260 ft lbs of torque after I was duing tuning on it... oh yeah, and 55 mpg!... Diesel, the hybrid killer.

Stevie B

in a heartbeat I would get a hybrid to improve mileage, lessen the crap we are hurting our enviroment, save at the pump and have access to HOV lanes to move along faster in Atlanta GA which has some of the worst rush hour traffic

crazymjb

The TL is already ULEV and if I want more power I would(hypothetically) get the comptech supercharger and save all the weight of battery packs. Driving conservativly 36MPG highway has been reported. If I wanted a hybrid, I would get a prius with the plug in kit.

Mike

Rapid1

I just saw a show on Speed TV about the Lexus GS 450h hybrid. I was impressed. If Acura went the same route and didnt give up performance, I would be interested. while there is no big gain in either aspect, every little bit helps. biggest thing would be costs...purchase and maintenance. I wouldnt buy it to save money, just to be doing what I could do to be environmentally friendly without having to drive a butt ugly Toyota...

boe_d

[QUOTE=Kennedy
Did you consider an Accord Hybrid?
QUOTE]

I did - I took it out for a couple of test drives and actually was quite happy with the performance. I realize there are some forum readers looking to get more than 300hp and more torque but I doubt they are as concerned about MPG as they are the joy of additional power (nothing wrong with that, that is why they make chocholate and vanilla ice cream - that is why I'd be happy if they made a type S for those looking for something sportier even though I don't want one). I thought the accord hybrid power was fine - not significantly much different than the TL from what I experienced but then again I don't drag race. I took the 2006 acura out for a couple of test drives though and loved the seating, luxury appointments, the headlights...

Basically I'd be fine with the TL if it had the engine of the accord in it. Of course the 2006 accord is just putting their toe in the water (in my opinion). I'd say in about 2 more years, they should have refined that engine quite a bit - improving the MPG significantly.

A_UFO

http://times.discovery.com/convergen...gy/energy.html

How long will it take to break our addiction to oil?

http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/play...bclid=86183180


Panel Discussion

http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/play...clid=138214387

Black_05_TL_6SP

Heres a all electric car that will wax any high performance car!!! Check this thing out. There are a couple other companys that are working on concepts like this.

Wrightspeed Electric car

Also, going with a hybrid does not mean you have to give up power, the Accord hybrid offers more power then the standard V6. 15 more horses to be exact and it gets far better MPG.

Jason

RJANACONDA

iTrader: (1)

kinda on topic kina not but i was reading on popular science that bmw is developing a gas-steam hybrid!!! they claim that not only does it add about 35% to the gas effeciancy but it adds 20 lbs of tourque the only draw was it adds about 220 pounds to the car and their working to scale that down that would be tight in a tl

RJANACONDA

iTrader: (1)

whoa my numbers were all wrong here is the lionk to anyone who is interested

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...cbccdrcrd.html

boe_d

RJANACONDA,

Nice. I thought I read something about that a few years ago and then nothing. If all cars were just 10-20% more fuel efficient it would drastically effect the price of fuel.

While Fuel Cells are probably a likely future - 20 years from now, we better gets our ducks in a row quickly with fossil fuels. By that time they can improve the fuel cell cars and work on the supply and distribution of the hydrogen for those cars.

your_mom

If I wanted a hybrid TL, I would've bought a hybrid Accord and rebadged it like GM rebadges SUVs - slap a big A on the grill and shave the back. I'd really rather have RWD. That's the only think keeping the TL from perfection in my opinion. Well, and more horsepower!

boe_d

I'm surprised at the results - I wouldn't think as many would have opted for lower hp - not that that is a bad thing - I'm just surprised. I'm happy with the HP on the current model but some people seemed so agitated by the idea of Acura not putting all of their efforts toward more HP, I thought I might be in the minority in being satisfied with the current HP. Seems like in other threads a lot of people assume Acura would only make one model TL and it should focus on more HP than the current model. Perhaps if Acura does release a TL type S again they'll relax about the notion of a hybrid.

Again, I'm all for Acura making 2 or even three models of the TL
- a TL type S for people who live for power
- a standard TL
- a Hybrid model for people who want a hybrid for many possible reasons.

DMZ

Problem with hybrids is when they get to be about 5 years old, you have to replace the batteries, BIG $$$$

subinf

Hey Kennedy, if you are going to quote two people in the same reply make sure you get their names right. I only said the first thing. Pay more attention. Thank you.

And please read my statement again and then your answer and tell me if your reply makes any sense whatsoever. I said there are alternative reasons for buying a Prius...not just saving money at the pump.

Hybrid

Where did you get THAT info from?

Since both Toyota and Honda are saying they haven't had to replace any batteries yet, and KBB doesn't support that information on used Prius models (some 5 years old and older, many now with well over 100K miles!), it doesn't sound like correct information. Toyota now says that the batteries should be expected to last the life of the car. Battery life is turning out to be much better than even the manufacturers hoped. They apparently lead a pretty "ideal" life as far as charge/discharge cycles, and getting used frequently.

Quote from Toyota:
"How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear. "
From: http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases...T2004062345528

Also, go ahead and look up KBB (or other site) values on used hybrids (Prius, Civic, Accord..) and see if they are worth less than non-hybrids. You might be surprised.

boe_d

Good point - don't forget the new battery plant opening up in the US which will reduce costs and increase availability of the batteries which are currently only available from one plant in Japan as far as I remember - location may be off but I believe one supplier makes all the batteries used in Honda, Toyota, etc.

boe_d

I just noticed this - kind of interesting. The least selected item was I would be interested in a hybrid only if it increased HP I don't care about MPG. Rumors from Acura are that the 2009 TL Hybrid won't get better gas mileage, just quicker acceleration and more HP.

That is one of the reasons I posted it since it is pretty much the opposite of my goal for a hybrid TL. Too bad Acura didn't bother with a poll of their own before starting their hybrid TL. Tom Elliot, EVP for Honda has been quoted on this.

However lackluster sales of the Accord hybrid may get Acura to realize that 40mpg is the magic mark for Hybrid sales as evidenced by which hybrids sell well. Replacing the batteries, pulling it back to about 240HP and adding the Plug in option should easily get it to that mark.

Mind you - I'm not knocking acura/honda - I think we all live and learn. I just think they could have learned faster if they bothered to put up a poll on their web page. They send you annoying questionairs after you buy one of their cars - who wants to fill out anything and mail it these days. They could have just had a poll/form on their web page for recent buyers and another one for POTENTIAL buyers to find out what they need. Not sure who is in charge of marketing at HONDA but I'm putting money on it that they are someones son or daughter of the president.

boe_d

I think that if enough people let them know they should add a poll section to their web page, they might get the idea of what is more important HP or MPG. http://www.acura.com/help/help_feed_index.asp?bhcp=1 I think in the end they'll have a reasonable divide and make a type s that sucks down gas but gets 320HP and then a gas sipping model that gets about 255 HP but gets about 40 MPG based on a hybrid engine that uses new recyclable lithium cell batteries and an optional plug in. Who knows - with nanotube lithium cells in a few years, it could easily exceed this!

You probably won't save money on the hybrid (then again you might with gas prices potentially passing $4 by next year) but at least the batteries are recyclable, it will reduce your trips to the gas station, better for the environment and less dependence on other countries . Oh and if they do get it to 40mpg you can use the HOV lane in many states.

jackal4eva

Dude, you got it right.

Washington

I'm only addressing this from a marketing perspective: I think Acura is pretty well positioned. Confine hybrids to Hondas until there's more evidence that there will be demand for hybrids in upscale cars.

I'm not certain that Toyota will be successful with their hybrid Lexuses. So far, the only cars they offer it on the GS, but the ES and LS will apparently follow.

July Lexus car sales:
Overall : 16,157
GS (all): 2,075
GS 450h hybrids 157

Lexus does a little better with the hybrid SUV sales, ~10% of total sales.

jackal4eva

I see your point - but I still think there is a market for fuel efficient/environment friendly/statement making & comfort/luxury just as there is a market for performance/luxury and size/luxury (7 series, S-series, etc).

Washington

Well, you're in good company. Toyota is increasing market share faster than anyone else, and their plans for Lexus indicates that they agree with you.

Black_05_TL_6SP

Not just that, Toyota at this time has the most advanced system. And with the Lithium Ion cell replacement and plug in coming out from indepent companies, they are going to fly past everyone.

The replacement they are working on for the Prius bumps it up to over 100MPG over the normal of 55MPG. Add to this that there is now a factory for manufacturing the batteries here in the US and the costs will be coming down for maintance.

KeithL

I loved my 06TL, but can't deal with $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. I can afford it, but refuse to waste my money on it. I got a Camry hybrid, and while it is a great car, Toyota is very plush and I prefer the TL erginomics and styling. A small 6 cyl with IMA to maybe give you 200 HP and say upwards of 30MPG woudl be ideal! I would snap one up in a second. Seems no one is going after the slightly upscale market with a Hybrid, Lexus does it for performance, but a decent performer with decent MPG woudl be killer.

CL6

So you:

1. Lost money on the TL's depreciation
2. Lost money by paying tax & license TWICE
3. Spent thousands extra for the 'hybrid'

I bet if we add all that money up, plus the interest, etc... and we take the mileage you're getting now vs. before then we'd find you'd be able to buy gas for a decade at least!

Hybrid

So, people are saying you shouldn't buy a hybrid because the "return on investment isn't there". So what's the return on investment of the following:
- A-spec kit
- non-stock wheels, bigger tires, etc.
- Navigation system.

You get some enjoyment out of it, and probably get a little bit of money back on the "investment" at trade-in time, right?

Guess what, the same applies to the hybrid "option". I still have yet to see a supposed economic analysis of hybrids that includes Resale Value in the equation. They all assume the hybrid will be worth exactly the same as the non-hybrid while it costs a few thousand $$ more to purchase. So far, resales are very good on hybrids. Nobody knows what the future holds, of course. You don't need to save nearly as much gas over the ownership period to make it worthwhile if you consider resale value. (Plus, there are assorted and significant rebates and other benefits in various states, like HOV lane driving, for a hybrid that help the equation). Also, the "they'll be worthless due to the impending battery change cost" (meaning nobody will want a used one) is turning out to be completely false.

Do the people that complain of the HUGE environmental problem of battery disposal even know that the Honda battery pack consists of 120 D-Cell batteries, essentially? It's not all that big - sort of like a largish lead-acid car battery, and about the same weight. Toyota uses a little more battery, I think. Even if the batteries aren't recycled, how does the impact compare to everything else in the car (seat foam, plastics, airbags, fluids.... if you argue that that stuff will be recycled...why won't the batteries?)

CL6

The poster, and many hybrid owners, cite high gas prices as their motivating factor, hence my post. Now if somebody buys a hybrid not caring that they're spending more money then I wouldn't say anything.

And where do you think those 'significant rebates' come from, anyway? You think they are 'free' money or something?

DMZ

Consumer Reports estimated the average hybrid owner would have to keep the car for at least 4 or 5 years for the fuel savings to offset the car's original purchase price difference. Then when the hybrid car gets to be 5 years old, whoaaa! battery replacement time for big $$$.

KeithL

I didn't really loose much on the TL, it holds its resale exceptionally well. Tax was only on the difference, I get $2600 from Feds on Tax Credit. And DMV fee is like $18. My math says if I keep it 2 years I am ahead and that was if I get 30-32MPG, I am currently getting average 34-35MPG. And Gas has gone up more since I bought it and more statiosn now are spreading the gap for Premium, so in many stations here Premium is not 25-27 cents more than regular.