bored7one4

When will Acura come out with a Hybrid car? I think honda has the hybrid accord already so i wonder if they will build a hybrid TL or even better yet make a PHEV (Plug-In Hybrid) that will now run on the fist 40-60 miles on electric which is why more than enough for my daily drive. Hopefully honda can look into this like toyota is doing. I readed that they made a 130MPG PHEV prius.

check out these on the website for more info in PHEV.

http://www.hybridcars.com/index.html

http://www.calcars.org/

http://www.pluginamerica.com/index.shtml

jdb8805

I don't see how this can help with many electric providers strained to the max. If thousands of people bought plug in cars, wouldn't that just cause electricity prices to go through the roof and you'd end up paying for it in your electric bill?

More rolling blackouts etc???

BlueSkyzz

Hybrid cars do not need to be plugged in to recharge. Hybrid has both an electric and gas engine.

That is the advantage of a hybrid vs a fully electric car.

CL6

Firstly, sales of V6-powered hybrids are down. Secondly, the ownership cost of a hybrid vs. a non-hybrid are much higher. If you crack open your 2006 Consumer Reports car buying issue you will see this dollar amount can be as high as $6,500.00.

When you factor in other costs, such as the engery required to build the components of a hybrid you will find that it takes more energy than it does to build a non-hybrid. This energy comes from coal or oil-fired powerplants in most countries.

Toyota, most experts say, loses money on every hybrid they sell when they are taken as a whole. Honda is too practical to build cars that will lose money. This is why the hybriud Accord is about $3,000 more than the non-hybrid (and sales are down 40% I think).

Plug-in hybrids are interesting, but if you further investigate battery life you will see that the main reason for premature battery life failure is because batteries are charged too often to 100% or drained too much to close to 0%. Plug-in hybrids, by defintion, will abuse the battery more and thus shorten life. With replacement battery costs at anywhere from $3,500 to $6,000 (not to mention the hazardous waste created and the energy needed to recycle these batteries) this does not make much sense, either.

As a political credential hybrids are useful but, from what I've read and heard, in the real world with practical economic considerations to keep in mind they are not worth it.

CL6

People generally will plug in their vehicles at night when demand is very low. Rolling blackouts do not happen at 2am they happen at 2pm.

Black_05_TL_6SP

There are a few points here that you touched on that are not quite accurate. First, the sale of Accord Hybrids, you have to wait almost a year right now to even get one. They are that far behind, same with the Prius. Toyota has a great working battery system. If you had read anything on them you would know that they batteries have far outlasted there intended life and still going strong. The Toyota system never charges fully nor does it drain fully, it cycles the batteries in the middle.

With the advance in Lithium Ion cells a lot of the problems with batteries will change. The LI batteries are lighter, better charge rate and are not as painful to recycle come that time. They are currently more expensive then the NiMH batteries that are in the current cars, but manufactures are helping bring that cost down.

My grandmother has had a Prius since they came out, and loves the car! They have had some small issues with it since it was first year production, but Toyota has done a great job with that car.

The problem is the government in the US. There should be clean burning diesels and the use of electric cars in urban areas. We are a nation of consumption, this is shown in the fact that gas prices are averaging a little over $3 a gallon, and people are still wanting to buy SUV, Pickups and other large vehicles. Not to mention, they keep bumping up HP ratings on cars to sell and not the MPG!! We care more about the HP output then the efficiency of the car.

To those that think E85 is the answer, wrong!! Look at South America uses it. They wanted to have there energy independence, but one bad sugar crop killed that. We cannot be dependent upon a source that has to be grown, just look at the crops in this country right now. Then the processing of it puts more pollutants in the air then a gas burning engine.

The answer is going to be in Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Ford already has one working in a Ford 500, but says it will be 10 years before it is ready for production status. WTF!! 10 years!! If it is currently working and the government is worried about it, maybe they should invest some of our tax dollars to helping companies get this to market NOW!! ( or sooner then 10 years)

They talk about how important it is to develop new technology for cars, but at the same time don't do anything about it. Its all about the $$$$$, there is to much of it tied up in the capital.

I personally would love to see the option of a hybrid add to the TL line, I would be willing to pay the extra money for it. One of the things that is being developed for the Prius is the battery pack replacement with the LI cells and a plug in charger. This will take the car from 55 MPG to over a 100 MPG.

As for power, you can actually get the same amount of power from an electric car and in some cases more. Here is a site to check out if you want to see an electric car in action. Electric car.

We all know something needs to be done, as gas prices are getting ( or are already) insane. This is just my so please don't take offense.

Jason

chill_dog

1) The government has already invested tax dollars, in ethanol...since the money was spent on proven bad technology, there's none left for potentially good technology.

2) 10 years, yeah, that sounds right...have to give the oil/energy companies time to be the ones to develop the new technology...can't have them going under.

3) It's all scam, and we're the ones getting bent over.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Toyota/Lexus is FAR ahead of em all....the others are so far behind on their research if it does take off...Toyota/Lexus has positioned themselves well. They own boatloads of patents, ect that competitors will have to work around.

Drunkenmunky23

which always seems to be the case when it comes to the government...

Black_05_TL_6SP

1) Yep

2) yep

3) Without lobe or some dinner!!!!!! OOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!!

CL6

Accord hybrid sales are up? Check this out:

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1007?m...54846&mime=asc

Sales down 59.1% year-to-date.

Plug-in hybrids were what I was talking about concerning buring batteries out prematurely. Sorry for not making that connection more obvious.

You seem concerned about increasing horsepower not increasing MPG. We live in a free market economy. Consumers will choose which cars to buy and which ones not to. Those cars that sell more will push the market in this direction. If you lived under a socialist regime then you could have the government choose what you'd drive.

The answer will not be Hydrogen Fuel Cells. It takes more energy to produce hydrogen than you can get from it. So you will spend 100 units of energy to extract 70 units of energy from hydrogen? This is just plain stupid.

I didn't say hybrids cost more to operate than non-hybrids... Consumer Reports did. And it is not $50 more... it's is several thousand dollars more.

You need to look at the total energy expended with a hybrid compared with the total energy saved. Right now, from everything I've read, hybrids are a net energy loser. And ethonal, hydrogen, and other sources are, too. This is because the entire world economy and all its transportation costs are based on petroleum which, by volume, holds more energy than any other source we have right now.

These are the facts as far as I know.

bored7one4

check out the Telsa , 0-60 in under 4 sec and one charge can take you to 250 mile. what more can you ask for? this car make no noise at all. i heard in 2008 they will make a sedan verson for around 50k. cant wait for these technology to come out.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...news-highway_1

bored7one4

yes hybrid does cost more to operate but if we are talking about Plug in Hybrid than i think that would be a different story. On average we fill our cars up 45-50 time a year on gas and that around $50 for my TL, that $2500 bucks a year compare to 5 times a year with a Plug in hybrid. i only drive around 30mile from work to home so if my hybrid plug in can do 40-60 mile on a single car that i would never have to visit the gas station agian. The LI batteries are expensive now because they are not mass produce and like all electronic stuff it will go down with time and demand. just my two cents.

ding069

that is awesome, can't wait for technology like that to come out.

as for the hybrids, yes acura needs to make one, soon.

CL6

A plug-in hybrid will cost as much to build as a 'conventional' hybrid does.

You are assuming you will only fill you hybrid up with gas 5 times per year. That is a mighty assumption I think.

Things you are not taking into account in your math:

~ Hybrids suffer bad depreciation compared to non-hybrids so when you do trade your car in (or sell it) it will be worth very little.
~ Your batteries will need to be replaced at many thousands of dollars if you do not trade your car in (or sell it) and this will wipe out your fuel savings advantage.
~ Because a hybrid costs more you will pay more in interest if your finance.

There are no real plug-in hybrids, only home-brewed Prius models. Maybe a factory engineered plug-in will do great things but I am skeptical until I see it.

bored7one4

i know that a mighty assumtion to make but i think it will be true if the average driver like me only drive around 30 miles per day and if i have a plug in car that could go 40-60 mile on a full night charge. I know the math add up now but it will down the line and there alot of people out there that will pay a little extra just to get a car that dont popluted the air. Also high gas prices are making everything more expensive because it cost more to deliverd the goods. Remember if you have a electric car it will save you on fuel, oil change, tune up and all the extra cost of having a regular car.

bored7one4

Who Killed the Electric Car ?

It's a documentary that investigates the birth and death of the electric car, check it out, it doesn't play everywhere so check your local listing theatres. very intresting movie.

CL6

Another movie long on ideas but short on facts:

http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog.html#EV1

Most damning of all:

"A waiting list of 5,000 only generated 50 people willing to follow through to a lease."

avlcat

Does anybody know how much the plug-in night charge will cost in the electric bill? The electricity is not free and its price is rising also. That cost may be comparable with gas cost for the same 40-60 miles, right?

bored7one4

i think it cost like 9 cent per kilowatt so like so that comes out to .70 cent per gallon. some electric offer off peak charging as low as 2-3 cent per kilowatts.

bored7one4

check out this transcript from pbs now. it kinda long.


Transcript - June 9, 2006

BRANCACCIO: Welcome to NOW and welcome to the ozone layer. Carbon monoxide, too.

I can feel the traffic right here, some of the many by- products of the internal combustion automobile engine. Smog, global warming -- many of us are already trying to help...living closer to work, taking public transit where possible, or perhaps buying a hybrid. Hybrids can be a cool, efficient alternative, but don't kid yourself: in with the electric motor is still a gasoline powered one, with a tailpipe. Whatever happened to the promise of the fully-electric car? The plug-in kind, producing no exhaust out the back, at all?

About ten years ago, some big car companies started producing electric cars, quite a lot of them. They worked, owners loved them, they looked sharp and kicked butt coming out of a stop light. So where are they now?

Dead, by and large. Killed by their own creators in a stunning display of power politics and spin...that's the view of a provocative new documentary. Chris Paine's film is called "Who Killed the Electric Car."

BRANCACCIO: Chris, good to meet you.

PAINE: You too.

BRANCACCIO: I guess you're presenting us here with a whodunit?

PAINE: Yes, a bit of mystery. It's a -- "Who Killed The Electric Car?" is about why the only kind of cars that we can drive run on oil. And for a while, there was a terrific alternative, a pure electric car mostly in California. And then they all disappeared.

BRANCACCIO: But you know it didn't just happen that these cars became available. It had something to do with a marriage, of good, old American innovation both from the car manufacturers' point of view and also in terms of air quality regulation.

PAINE: Well, you know, Los Angeles has got very bad air quality problems. But --

BRANCACCIO: You think?

PAINE: Yeah. It was really bad in the 70s when I was growing up, and then -- in the -- in the 90's, 80s and 90s, it really began to increase too, because there's so many people moving to Los Angeles. And California was looking at like one in four kids had lung lesions and cancer and all these things were coming up.

So, they said, "We have to do something." And just then General Motors had built an electric car, and they had one at the L.A. Auto Show. And the regulators said, "Oh, you guys can do an electric car."

BRANCACCIO: They required these electric cars. They passed these rules in 1990 that by 1998 about two percent of these cars would have to be all electric, and by the year 2003, three years ago, what would it be up to, about ten percent?

PAINE: Ten percent. Yeah. So this is a rea -- This is as big innovation as, for example, the catalytic converter that California also led the nation on. And New York and Massachusetts and many, many states said, "Hey, this is a good idea, electric cars. Let's see what happens in California."

BRANCACCIO: Well, you've got some experience behind the wheel of one these EV1's. Does it go?

PAINE: Oh, oh, my God. I mean, most people think the electric car -- you know, golf carts or something for a little old lady, like it was in 1900. But these modern, electric cars, I sat in a EV1, and you step on the accelerator. And she -- whoo -- incredibly fast. And almost totally quiet, just like a spaceship taking off. And I think at that moment, the first time I drove in the electric car, I was -- I was hooked.

Very convenient. You just plugged it in at home overnight, charged the car. And then one day, the car was taken away.

BRANCACCIO: It was actually taken away from you.

PAINE: Well, not exactly like that. They leased the cars, so you knew you'd have to give the car back at a certain point.

BRANCACCIO: You couldn't buy one if you wanted to buy one.

PAINE: No. No, what you said, "Hey, okay, my lease is up." We said, "What's the cost to buy the car out?" They go, "Oh, no option. We take the car back." "No option? I wanna keep my car." "No, you can't have it." So everybody who had these electric cars were mostly people who really wanted to keep them. And they said, "No, we need the cars back."

BRANCACCIO: You mean really a lot of passion about a stupid car?

PAINE: I know. I never even liked cars until this EV-1 electric car. This was something special.

BRANCACCIO: So, cut hard to this, people who love their EV-1 electric cars so much that when they're taken away, they stage a mock funeral for their dearly beloved, but dearly departed cars. Let's take a look.

BEGELEY: What the detractors and the critics of electric vehicles have been saying for years is true. The electric cars are not for everybody. Given the limited range, it can only meet the needs of 90% of the population.

SEXTON: People used to ask me, "Why do you do what you do?" And I -- especially after I had my son -- told them, "I figure if I do my job well enough, my son will never know a time before there were electric cars on the road." And he rode in an EV1 on the way over here. And he said, "I wish we could keep the EV1 for a long time." And all I could say was, "Me, too."

PAINE: Only in Los Angeles would you have a funeral for a car, a bunch of celebrities and so forth. But when you started going in to it, you began to realize that something really had happened. That it was foul play.

BRANCACCIO: Foul play implicated in the death of these cars.

PAINE: Well, because the cars represent something bigger than cars, right? This is a -- The idea of the film is why is it so hard for us to get off of oil. Why even when you have an electric car can't they be given a real chance in the marketplace? And -- And my experience is that almost no one knew about these electric cars. So that's why we wanted to make the film to like let people know that it really was an option. And whenever you have big change, there's big forces that say, "No, no, no, we don't want the change." And I -- I -- I think that's a good reason to make a film.

BRANCACCIO: They were pretty strict about this. They took the cars away. And they didn't wanna just store them somewhere in the off-chance that gasoline would ever go up to $3 gallon. Which P.S. I think it has. They wanted these babies destroyed

Was it just GM that wanted the cars back?

PAINE: No, it was all the car makers. You know, I mean, even Toyota and Honda which are green car makers, supposedly, were after these cars. Ford, Chrysler, they -- they took them all back.

BRANCACCIO: And it comes down to this perverse little scene in your film where a legendary California broadcaster by the name of Huell Howser uses his considerable charm to get into one of these places where they crush cars. Let's take a look at this.

HOWSER: So we're gonna be able to see some cars shredded today?

MALE VOICE: Absolutely.

HOWSER: Which is not something most of us get to see

MALE VOICE: We shred the car -- about a car a minute. A thousand cars a day on a good day.

HOWSER: And what's interesting -- the first thing we noticed when we drove up here -- you're gonna be shredding some new cars here, too! These look like perfectly good cars! Why are you shredding them, too?

MALE VOICE: Little bit of a mystery, really. Since I've been here the last eight years, they bring us these cars from the dealerships. And they say that they're test cars. And they've been brought over to -- to test various emissions. And the insurance companies won't reinsure 'em. So we have to watch 'em destroyed here.

HOWSER: That seems like a shame!

MALE VOICE: It's a terrible shame.

HOWSER: I'd like to drive off in one of these things. Ladies and gentlemen -- that's the sound of a crushed automobile being shredded into a million pieces.

BRANCACCIO: Chris, undeniably sad, but really, I mean, the EV-1's pretty expensive. You can't drive even from, if it was on the East Coast, New York to D.C. in the thing, because of the battery range. Was there really demand for these things?

PAINE: In reality, every single electric car that was made, people wanted. And they just stopped making them. They claimed that people didn't want them, but all the evidence suggests, the waiting lists, that there really was demand.

BRANCACCIO: Maybe it's time just had not come.

PAINE: Yeah, well, that's what they claimed. Gasoline was $1.50 a gallon, and people were in love with SUVs. That was sort of what was happening. That was the landscape.

Clearly, of course, by now, 2006, the time for the electric car should be here, and it's unfortunate that they don't have any to sell. But even then, even when these cars came out, the way they tried to sell these cars to the consumers is almost sort of reverse psychology. Like they didn't really want people to buy the cars.

BRANCACCIO: What do you mean?

PAINE: Well, they would have these campaigns where the -- the car would look like it was being introduced in the middle of nuclear winter or something. So it's like --

BRANCACCIO: You mean the ad sort of had that look to it?

PAINE: The ads had this dark, scary look. You don't really want one of these cars.

BRANCACCIO: So you would argue an unusual way to sell a car. In fact, here is an example of what some critics say is an odd way to sell an electric vehicle...

VOICE: How does it go, you will ask yourself. And then you will ask, how did we go so long without it? The electric car:

PAINE: Yeah, the first time I saw that ad I thought it was like a civil defense ad for nuclear war.

BRANCACCIO: Well, I mean, they spent millions of dollars advertising the car.

PAINE: Yeah, well, that's what they say. In fact they say they spent a billion dollars, they spent millions advertising, but those of us that watch the story, that -- where -- where's the evidence? Please show us the numbers. The -- the numbers really aren't there. And then, if you look at the advertising -- the advertising does not, what shall we say -- make one want to buy one of these cars.

BRANCACCIO: Well, let's take a look at what General Motors says about all this. They said look, they tried -- they tried to do advertising, they tried to come up with a cool car. Nobody wanted it.

BARTHMASS (GM EXEC): Our goal at GM is to make the full functioning battery electric vehicle a commercially viable business opportunity for general motors.

NARRATOR: GM spokesman Dave Barthmass has worked for GM for nearly 10 years...

BARTHMASS (GM EXEC):We spent in excess of one billion dollars to drive this market -- to build a market. That means award winning advertising. Developing the vehicle. Developing the re-charging infrastructure. And in a four-year time frame -- from roughly 1996 to 2000 -- we were able to lease 800 EV1's.

BRANCACCIO: But, what's in it for the car companies to stop a program like that? I mean, you see Pulitzer Prize-winning car critic from The Los Angeles Times. His name is Dan Neal. He's in your film. He says, "Come on, if the consumer wanted a car that ran on -- ran on pig dung, GM would make it. They just don't want this thing." What's in it for killing something that works at least a bit?

PAINE: Well, you know, this is a -- this is really the heart of the movie. It's like why would car companies destroy the very car they created in the first place. It's -- One of the characters says it's like an act of cannibalism. And certainly it seems like it now when you look at General Motors with nothing to sell, except for their trucks and SUV's and a small number of compact cars.

Well, the thing is is that car companies since -- for 100 years have been selling the internal combustion engine, and that's an engine that needs to be fixed and re -- repairs. And there's lots to it. They know how to do it, and they have a big margin. If you say how about an electric car? You know, it's -- it's a totally different game.

BRANCACCIO: What? There's less maintenance on electric cars?

PAINE: Well, there's -- there's almost no maintenance, because there's no internal combustion engine. So there's no carburetor. There's no tune-ups. There's no air filters to change. There's not even a transmission. So the electric car really challenges the whole fundamental business structure for the car companies. And unfortunately the -- the electric car's another problem. It doesn't use any oil. So, the electric car instantly goes after two bedrock industries in the country, and that makes it a very difficult sell.

BRANCACCIO: The oil industry that provides the fuel and the lubrication for a -- for a conventional car and of course the car companies that --

PAINE: Yeah.

BRANCACCIO: -- would rather what? I mean, in your film, you argued rather sell rather larger cars.

PAINE: Yeah.

BRANCACCIO: Let's take a look at this.

ROMM: There's no question that people who control the marketplace today -- the oil companies -- have a strong incentive to discourage alternatives. Except alternatives that they themselves control. And, you know, just as General Motors 40 or 50 years ago bought up the trolley systems and shut them down, the oil companies have opposed the creation of an electric infrastructure.

PAINE: Well -- In the process of making the film, I began to think of cars, especially SUV's and trucks, as being like those printers you get you know from the office supply store for $49. And then you buy these $79 cartridges to make them run. And that's kind of the way it is with the gas car.

They might practically give it to you, like I think some of the big car companies are giving 'em away, but then you add up the repairs and the gasoline over the years. And that's where the money is.

BRANCACCIO: You know, Chris I open all these big ads from the oil companies these days, and they're touting all this cool alternative fuel research that they're supporting. Our hydrogen future for instance. I mean they -- that could undermine their -- their business model, yet they seem to be embracing some alternatives.

RIPPEL: If hydrogen can do a better job as an energy carrier than electricity then by gosh it should be the carrier of choice, the problem is that it's not even close.

BUSH: How far will this car drive on that amount of fuel?

GAS STATION ATTENDANT: It gets about approximately about 100-125 miles a gallon.

BUSH: Really

GAS STATION ATTENDANT: Uh huh.

BUSH: Interesting.

NARRATOR: A fuel cell car powered by hydrogen made with electricity uses 3 to 4 times more energy than a car powered by batteries.

BUSH: This is the beginning of some fantastic technology and, uh, thanks for having us out here we are going to look at some other vehicles in a minute but, uhh, you know hydrogen is the wave of the future.

PAINE: Well, hydrogen fuel cell was a big surprise for us as filmmakers. Because, California, when they said, "Okay, car companies you don't have to make electric cars anymore, you win." And the car companies said, "Great. We'll build zero emission vehicle hydrogen fuel cell cars."

And, we were all very excited about them. But, as we began to look at the evidence, it turns out the hydrogen fuel cell was a really bad deal. And it certainly doesn't -- doesn't warrant quite all the enthusiasm it's been getting.

BRANCACCIO: What's wrong with hydrogen? I mean it would be cleaner.

PAINE: Well, I think the reason the oil industry likes hydrogen so much is that hydrogen is basically a way for them to ship something around in their trucks, to charge to fueling stations, just like oil. It's the same exact paradigm for the oil industry.

BRANCACCIO: As opposed to plugging something in, in your garage.

PAINE: Plugging in, very different. The oil industry doesn't want people plugging in, they want people filling up. So -- hydrogen works for them in that sense. But this is all 15, 20 years down the road if they perfect this technology.

And -- the work we did -- the research we did on film indicates the hydrogen fuel cell is a lot farther off than industry would have you believe.

BRANCACCIO: So you're not intrinsically against it, it's just that you are, from your study of this, skeptical this is something that could come to our environmental aid anytime soon.

PAINE: Yeah, I mean, that's really it. I mean, electric cars -- battery powered electric cars is a technology that exists today. We could all have them.

We could have millions of them on the street right now working very effectively, using domestically created electricity, charging off solar panels. Hydrogen fuel cell -- which they convinced California to wait for, is ten, 15 years off and, unfortunately, it turns out to be a much less efficient -- user of energy than if you just used a battery in the first place.

BRANCACCIO: So, your film actually renders judgment in some of these cases. You -- you stamp on your screen, "Guilty." When it comes to -- the car companies, they would argue with that. You stamp on the screen, "Guilty" when it comes to the oil industry, they would argue about that. But, what about you and me -- us, the consumer? I mean, we may not have run out initially. I lived in California at the time, I didn't think to get an EV1, maybe I'm partly guilty in this story.

PAINE: This is why we -- took on the consumer as part of the suspects for this -- for our story.

BRANCACCIO: But, ultimately, you don't lay blame on the consumer?

PAINE: Well, no, ultimately we do.

BRANCACCIO: Really?

PAINE: We -- we -- in fact, when we first showed this to some of our producers, they're like, "I'm not sure you want to make the consumer guilty. I mean, after all they're -- they're your audience for your movie."

BRANCACCIO: People who pay money to get in to see this movie.

PAINE: Yeah, it's like --

BRANCACCIO: But you do have a guy in the film who, about the consumer, says this, when we hear energy efficiency -- I'm paraphrasing.

PAINE: Yeah.

BRANCACCIO: When we, the consumer hear energy efficiency, he says, we think smaller cars. We think cold houses. We think living like Europeans.

PAINE: Right, right. Well, it's really true isn't it? I mean, ultimately we, as consumers, are -- have a lot of herd mentality. And, whatever's hot, we go, we buy. And -- clearly when the electric car came out in the 90s everybody was buying SUVs.

THOMAS AND DIVINE: When SUVs first came out people were like, oh I can't drive that it's a tank I can't see over that, I'm going to murder somebody in that, oh that's too big but they convinced people this is safer, you need a big car, you need this for your family, bigger, safer...

NEIL: The idea of a penny pinching ev1 that was super green, you know that didn't get a lot of traction where as the idea of a gigantic SUV that would crush your neighbor, that did get a lot of traction

PAINE: Commercials were about SUVs, your neighbor had an SUV...

BRANCACCIO: It also helps as your film points out, there was a big tax break for many people if you bought an expensive SUV.

PAINE: That's right. You -- if -- you could get -- if you bought a 6,000 pound -- SUV or more, you could get a -- I think a $100,000 tax deduction as a small business owner.

BRANCACCIO: And 6,000 pounds is a pretty big vehicle.

PAINE: Yes, it's very big. In fact, a lot of these cars are -- are too big to go on residential streets, but they've never enforced those laws. The problem is, is that the electric car was given small incentives. And a lot of times -- government incentive makes a big -- big difference in what succeeds and fails.

BRANCACCIO: Alright, so the electric car, in that version, doesn't make it, but when you look around you now, the so-called Hybrid is hotter than the San Diego freeway during a mid-summer rush hour. I mean, everyone's grabbing those things. Success there!

PAINE: Yeah, yeah, it's terrific. The hybrids are taking off. And this is a great thing, because hybrids get people used to the idea of having electricity in a car.

In fact, you'll find that when people drive hybrids -- within the first couple months, you begin to see them just trying to keep their car in electric mode. They don't want to hear that gas engine turn up -- turn over. And, I think this is very good.

BRANCACCIO: So, we can change behavior.

PAINE: Yeah.

BRANCACCIO: This shows.

PAINE: Yeah, but the problem with the hybrids is that they still run on gasoline.

BRANCACCIO: There's still a tailpipe, there's still some pollution when the gas engine turns on.

PAINE: And you still have the internal combustion engine.

BRANCACCIO: Well, it's interesting to me in the film, you could have left it with these images of -- of death -- the demise of the car, but you don't. You come back towards the end of the film, with a -- a different vision of the future.

PAINE: I think -- United States is particular good at creating innovation. And, even though the electric cars in our film were destroyed -- a lot of new electric technology is coming to the forefront now. For instance there's the plug-in hybrid.

BRANCACCIO: Plug in hybrid.

PAINE: Yes.

BRANCACCIO: Now, for people to understand this -- typically -- if people don't understand this, a hybrid now, you never plug in. You either turn it over, gas engine runs it and puts energy into the electric part of it, but it doesn't plug in the wall.

PAINE: Right, yeah. Well, the difference with the plug in hybrid is you take your hybrid car and at nighttime you plug it in your garage and it charges overnight and then the first 40, 50 miles of your next day driving is all electricity. So, your gas never kicks on. So, suddenly you're seeing the equivalent of 150 miles per gallon in a car.

BRANCACCIO: And if your batteries run down then there's a little engine to get you where you're going.

PAINE: Then the engine turns on and it keeps you going.

BRANCACCIO: So some people are making these modifications, turning hybrids into the plug in kind?

PAINE: Right, right -- right now it's mostly people doing conversion kits. But -- there are rumblings from Toyota and others that -- plug-in hybrids may be coming around the corner. I -- I'm hoping to hear it out of -- General Motors and Ford too.

They could do it, it's just they don't -- so far, they've lacked the will to really invest in electricity as a way to power cars.

BRANCACCIO: But if you're bucking for sort of the ultimate revolution here in clean transportation, you gotta have a bigger coalition than these kind of Tom Hanks, Ed Begley Jr. characters that you've got in the film who love their EV1 cars. You need more people focused on this.

PAINE: Yeah. Well, in the film -- at the end of the film, we have -- what is this new coalition? And this includes -- what groups do we have? We have -- What Would Jesus Drive?

BRANCACCIO: So you have Christi-Evangelicals --

PAINE: Evangelicals.

BRANCACCIO: -- in making the world a better place.

PAINE: And we have the tree huggers and we have a lot of Reagan people that are -- part of a group called, Set America Free.

BRANCACCIO: Well, you're talking about them as neo-conservatives. What's the neo-Conservative -- pony in this race?

PAINE: Well, I -- I think conservative because these are people that look at the transportation issues from a National Defense point of view. And they go, "If we spent so much money protecting the flow of oil --"

BRANCACCIO: From the Middle East --

PAINE: From the Middle East, this was not good. Whereas if we use electricity, this is domestically produced and it's possible that it can be renewable. This is good for the long term.

So, these neo-Conservatives, if you will, have joined with the Environmentalists and really anybody who says, "Okay, I'm done with gasoline. How can I get off this stuff?"

BRANCACCIO: I mean, given the price of gas these days -- given the uncertainty in the Middle East and so forth -- one wonders if these car companies are having second thoughts about their decisions involving the electric car.

PAINE: I think they really are. I mean, car companies have all of these big cars sitting in their lots right now. And even last week, Rick Wagoner at GM said that axing the EV1 was probably the worst decision he made on his watch.

It's too bad. I feel like the electric car story was an example of us losing two years, maybe five years at a time when we don't really have a lot of time to play with.

BRANCACCIO: Well Chris, thank you for this.

PAINE: It's been great

BRANCACCIO: Chris Paine is director of, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" It appears in some theatres in New York and Los Angeles on June 28th. And it's likely to show up at a theater near you sometime this summer.

And that's it for NOW. From the middle of traffic somewhere, I'm David Brancaccio. We'll see you next week.

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bored7one4

heheh here is the mp3 of the transcript. if you want to listen and not read

http://www-tc.pbs.org/now/rss/media/...mp3?mii=1&play

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/index.html

CL6

An interesting piece however I have trouble with the fact that GM would essentially throw away $1 Billion (what they spent on the EV1) because of some Big Oil conspiracy theory. I also have issues with the statements that oil companies want to stay with hydrogen because they can continue to mark things up as they have done.

Electric cars could never travel that far, battery technology was not very advanced from what we had in 1920. And I fail to understand why people gripe about the price of gasoline ($3.02 here for regular unleaded) when they will gladly pay $1.25 for a pint of bottled water.
And GM managed to lease only 800 EV1s. If there was so much consumer interest why were so few leased? GM very heavily subsidized the cost of these leases.

And what if GM had allowed people to buy their EV1s. Who was going to maintain them? There were no parts for them. Who would be at fault if a part failed and somebody was killed? The EV1 seems to me to have been like many Dot Com businesses... who needs to turn a profit? Any business that continues to not make a profit on its products will not stay in business very long. With an installed base of only 800 vehicles how could the EV1 ever turn a profit?

Black_05_TL_6SP

You are wrong on that, they are not depreciating in value, they are actually selling for more then retail!! As for the GM EV1, the government has been giving money to these large car companies for years to "Develop" cars that use less gas!! So the Billion dollar loss was chalked up to our tax dollars, not to GM.

You must own stock in a oil company, because you have done nothing but dog hybrids and any possible solution that is on the table at this time. SO please, if you are going to continue with the dogging, just leave.

chill_dog

You're right, there's no government conspiracy over anything, never has been, nor will there ever be. The government and corporations are looking out for out best interests, not their pocketbooks.


Who knew about them? I don't remember seeing them advertised anywhere. You can't buy/lease what you don't know exists.


I bet they'd lease more than 800 now.

CL6

Sorry if 'dogging' this thread means using facts.

Look, the used market for hybrids is all screwed up. Why? The government offers tax credits on new hybrids, sometimes up to $3,500. Granted, for Toyota these are running out but they make it easier to buy a new hybrid not a used one. The used one is worth less as a result. Sure, some people can flip their hybrid over and make a profit but not necessarily if it's a few years old.

GM spent more than $1 Billion on its EV1. You don't think they had any ads? $1 Billion is a hell of a lot of money. Seems to me they put their money where their mouth was. Maybe more people would be interested now, maybe not. But GM got burned so badly who else wants to try? Toyota had an electric RAV4 for a while but that never took off, either.

I never brought up 'government conspiracy.' The EV1 went 80 miles before needing overnight to recharge. And battery packs do horribly in very cold weather, which cuts their life quite a lot.

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/2000/...0/news/11.html

The quote I find most interesting is:


But after an initial flurry of interest, few buyers came forward, and the EV1s limitations became clear. EV1 leases cost between $400 and $600 a month, and for their money, owners got a car with a range of 80 miles that needed several hours to recharge. Of 703 prospects who went through a special sales pitch for EV1s in the first three months, nearly 80 percent decided against it. GM increased the EV1's range, but sales didn't improve.

Last year, GM leased 137 EV1s, and has leased about 600 since 1996. Pearce said the EV1 appealed mostly to die-hard fans of electric cars, and not a mass audience.

''Range, two seats, recharging ... those are very real concerns that consumers have,'' Pearce said. ''We have spoiled customers with respect to motor vehicles. They want normal range, they want four or five seats, they don't want to spend any time recharging.''



It's great to talk about alternative fuels but most of what you're saying is pie-in-the-sky kind of stuff. Facts are pesky things, particularly when you're trying to ignore them.

bored7one4

[QUOTE=CL6]
battery packs do horribly in very cold weather, which cuts their life quite a lot.

[QUOTE]

Electric cars were mostly release in california and we dont really have that much cold weather here.

this has been a nice thread to read !!!

the only thing i want to see right now is all the car maker when make hybrid offer a plug in hybrid that would save us soo much gas. i think the only reason toyota is doing it is because a group of car guru converted there pirus into a 130+ mpg car and if they can do it for around 10k extra imangine what the car make can do and how much cheaper it will be if mass prodouce. even college professer and some students can do it. check this quote out at http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?sect...le&storyid=504

---Professor Frank counters that not only will his plug-in hybrid Explorer weight nearly the same as a conventional Explorer but more importantly, it will have more power, to the tune of 330 horsepower when the gasoline engine and electric motor outputs are combined. He jests that not only will his vehicle pull anything a V8 Explorer will pull, but that his vehicle might just pull the hitch right off the frame.

As for added cost, he tells EV World that according to his estimates, a plug-in hybrid system would add only 10-15% to the total price of the car, comparable to the cost of adding leather seats and a sun roof. This is due, in part, to the use of newer, more powerful and cheaper Phase III NiMH batteries built to custom specifications for the UC Davis team by Ovonics. He estimates these new batteries will last 150,000 miles because of the university's battery management system. ---

Ford should take a look at what Dr. Frank and his students are doing and start making cars beucase there race in the car market will be short live when toyota is leading the way !!!

Black_05_TL_6SP

Facts??? You are just throwing things out, snippets from here and there, not the whole story. We as a nation, have to have an alterantive fuel or source of energy for cars. Until we can all have small nuclear reactors in the car or something with an endless supply of energy, something has to change. Hybrids are going in the correct direction. The EV1 was one of the most advanced cars of its time, but cost was a huge factor. Not to mention the cost of fuel went back to being under a $1. Why would you buy it. The FACT now is that gas is at 3+ a gallon and it isnt going to go back down to the $1 mark ever!!!

To state the Hybrids don't hold there value is so far from the truth, so to state that is a fact would really make it a lie!! Toyota themselves has stated that the battery packs in the Prius has far outlasted what they ever thought it would last, thats a FACT!! This means your theory of having to recycle the batteries every time you sell the car is crap!! Honda's Hybrid system is not as advanced as Toyotas at this time, but it is getting better.

There is no decline in Hybrid sales, the problem is supply, they are not able to make them fast enough to fill the demand for them, there for they buy something else as consumers don't want to wait a year for a car to be made, and yes that is how far behind they are on hybrids.

So please get your FACTS straight before typing crap. There are always going to be articles out there that are on both sides of the fence, you just seem to be on the wrong side. Gas engines are quickly becoming a thing of the past, get over it, things have to advance and we have to move on.

You just don't seem to get the Fact that government has been subsidizing alternative fuel research for car and gas companies for some 20+ years. They want it to look like they are trying to help us, while making there pockets fatter and staying in office. Politics my son, politics.

bored7one4

very good points black_05.

it has been very fun read what you and CL6 have been saying in this thread !!!

bored7one4

what i dont understand is why GM would crush the EV1 cars and not just keep them. if 10 people wanted to buy out there lease for lets say 10k, why crust them when you can make a extra 100K and charge for service when they are needed???? Remember GM took the trolleys system in san francisco off the track when they purchase the company.

Black_05_TL_6SP

Thank you, I think!! Its just the truth. There has to be an ends to the means, and until there is something to take the place of crude oil, that will be good for the environment and on the old pocket books, we have to keep looking. That’s the only real fact that we can all count on. Crude oil is going to run out, maybe not in our life time, but it will. Not just that, but the fact we are damaging the environment. I am by no means a tree hugger (and I don't mean it in a bad way), but I do feel that we need to protect our planet from the pollution we are making. Our nation is not the worst in the world, but we need to do what we can here and help the other nations do the same.

We are very fortunate to live in "free countries", where we can voice our opinions and have debates. But we can not sit ideally by and not do anything. Electric cars and hybrids, once built, are very clean, with the introduction of the Lithium Ion battery usage in hybrids, it will help it to be even cleaner on recycle day!!

CL6

Did you see the link I posted about Honda sales for July (ah.. a FACT). The Accord hybrid is down about 40%. The Lexus RX400h is down. I said the V6-powered hybrid sales are down (FACT) but not hybrid 4 cylinder sales (FACT).

I did not state that hybrid cars do not hold their value, I said that if you look in the Consumer Reports car buying guide THEY say they do not hold their value (FACT). The government is offering up to $3,500 in tax incentives on hybrids (FACT) this artificially manipulates the market and skews the values of used cars downward (FACT) because why by used when for the sale amount you can buy new?

I never made any statements about how long batteries would last only that eventually they will need to be replaced (FACT) and that this would be from $3,000 to $6,000 (FACT). The battery for the Honda Insight is $3,000 (FACT) call Honda and ask them.

I have cited multiple sources while you have... cited nothing! Opinions which are not based on facts are not worth very much.

I never said we did not have to find an alternative fuel source I only said that hydrogen takes more energy to make that it gives back (FACT) and that Ethanol is the same way (FACT) and that it depends upon petroleum in order to grow it, refine it, distribute it (FACT). I never said hybrids are not going in the right direction I only pointed out that they are more expensive to own than non-hybrids (FACT).

There is a waiting list for the Prius but not for the Accord hybrid (FACT). I do not know about the Civic hybrid.

You have no more idea what goes on inside the government than I do. Unless you work for the government and sit in on meetings you are merely speculating.

Our entire world economy is based on petroleum (FACT) and having and change will be very difficult and will have to happen all over the world and will take at least a decade.

EVERY single source of alternative energy system we have on earth is based on our petroleum economy. What do you think powers the machines that makes solar cells or wind machines or nuclear plants? Oil, gas, and diesel do!

As I said earlier... look at the INPUT energy needed to produce a unit of energy (hydrogen, ethanol, bio-diesel) and you will see that you get less OUTPUT energy (FACT).

To see sales of the Lexus RX400h for June 2006 you may click here:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...03/013559.html

Sales are down 1.3% over last year (FACT).

I hope I had enough facts in this post for you.

ding069

thats teh funny

Black_05_TL_6SP

Parts, unable to maintain the car down the road. They are responsible if something where to happen. Any given # of things. In 1996 gas was still in the low $1 range, and there was no real call for electric or hybrid cars. Its not until this last few years with the Hurricanes and the war's that we have really worried about it from a savings stand point. In the past it has always been about the environment, now when it starts to hit out pocket books, people want change, and then chalk it up to environment.

Even if hybrids are not the way to go, then maybe we need to look into clean burning diesel. You do not need to rely on crude oil, as you can use Crisco instead. Or even a bio diesel, which all run very clean. The only real by product is the hunger for French fries all the time. I would love to see more turbo diesels applications in the US, and as much as I loath Jeep products, they are introducing a turbo diesel Liberty. It will be a Mercedes engine in it and has been used in Europe for some time. In South America, they offer the Ranger with an inline 4 turbo diesel. Why has this never taken off in the US you ask, because when they tried it in the early 80's, no one wanted to buy a car that ran on diesel and at the time diesel was more. Diesel does a lot better on fuel then any unleaded car, just ask any one of the VW guys with a TDI.

Again, there is too much money tied up in crude oil, and every politician has there hand in that pocket. As far as a conspiracy goes, no, but corrupt politicians, yes.

bored7one4

iv'e read somewhere that when the first hybrid came out for lexus everone wanted one but what they didnt realize is that all hybrid dont save gas on freeways miles and the true value of the hybrid is for city stop and go driving. maybe that why sales are down.

Black_05_TL_6SP

CL6, I did agree with you on the E85, not only does it cost more to produce, it puts more pollutants into the air during processing then a normal gas burning engine.

As for the V6 Accords, I was looking at that as an option for my wife in December, they where not available, and would take some time to get one, upwards of a year. Sales will go down if availability is not there. Not all of us live in California, where the majority of hybrids go from the factory, there for it is much hard to get one. Most people don't want to travel such a distance to purchase it either.

Another problem I have found with the sales of hybrids and TDI cars, is that fact that the salesperson will try to talk you out of it. As they don't want to wait for that car to come in, they want to sell you what they have on the lot.

As for the cost of replacing the battery packs, that cost is coming down now that there is a factory in the US that can produce them, they no longer have to ship them in from overseas.

Diesel may not have the same energy potential as gas, but that is the purpose of using a turbo diesel. They burn cleaner, cost less to produce, no by product from the production of biodiesel and anyone can produce it. See, there is where the problem lies!! If we where all to produce our own diesel, how would the government tax it? You said it, loud and clear "Our entire world economy is based on petroleum (FACT)". This is very true, that is where the problem is. We are dependent upon nations such as Iraq, Iran and many others. So when they feel like it, they control the cost of the fuel. We have a very large stock pile of crude oil in this country and there is no need for fuel to be at $3 a gallon.

So why should we rely on these countries to allow us to use there oil when in fact we could have such things as clean burning bio diesels or electric cars. The real solution would be to combine the two, use a diesel generator to power and charge a electric hybrid. WOW, what an Idea, this gets rid of gas and helps us save money and saves the environment.


There’s no need to get into a pissing contest here or to see whose e-peen is bigger, the fact remains that something needs to be done, the car manufactures are trying, it would be nice to at least have the option to purchase the hybrid. You may not choose to drive one, but why would you want to limit the next person from doing so? Why is it that you don't like the V6 hybrid? With the technology advancing in batteries, it will get better. The batteries will be offereing reduced weight, better life and much cleaner to recycle. That is why independent companies have develop the Plug in Lithium Ion replacements for the Prius. Cost right now is 12G's, a little high, but within a year they plan to have that down around 6500. If I owned a Prius(other then the fact its ugly as sin), I would be all over it, to take my car from 55MPG to 100+, that to me would be worth the extra cost. You may not feel that it would be worth it to you, but there are plenty of people out there that do. The reason I like the Accord hybrid, it still looks like an Accord. This is the problem electric car and hybrid sales have had in the past, is the fact the cars are ugly and only a true environmentalist would drive it.

Personally, everyone that I talked to that owns a Hybrid Accord, loves it. If offered in the TL I would have bought it, even if I had to wait for it.

bored7one4

well what i really looking forward to is the tesla sedan that they will produce in 2008 for under 50k. that is really the next generation of EV cars.

Black_05_TL_6SP

That will be hot, so will the wrightspeed X2. sweet!!!!

bored7one4

are you guys willing to sell your TL for maybe get the tesla sedan verion when it comes out, no matter how it looks?

I think i would it in a heart beat.

CL6

Two things. First, you are mixing up your math. Why do sales decline? Simply put, because fewer people bought a given product this year than they did last year. The fact that you say there are waiting lists and not enough Accord hybrids can be produced has nothing to do with a sales decline. As long as Honda is able to produce (and sell) as many Accord hybrids as they did last year sales will not decline. Sales are down nearly 40%. This has nothing to do with shortages and everything to do with the fact that fewer people are buying these cars than they did last year. What does this mean? Guess the demand isn't there! It's simple math/economics.

Where does 'bio-diesel' come from? Vegetable Oil, right? Where does that come from? Vegetables? How are those grown? With petroleum products for fertilizer, with diesel to move the farm machinery, to market, etc. So you think bio-diesel is the answer? It's not because, as I've said many times, your INPUT energy is far greater than your OUTPUT energy.

And as far as hybrid battery costs... you're saying things like: 'should' 'would.' These are not FACTS my friend. My end of this conversation is rooted in the facts.