cliff

i just purchased a set of 80W bulb for the foglights, i was wondering if it would burn the wire harness or is that still safe. i think the stock is 50/55W.

tell me what u guys think

DopeTL04

Long as the volts are the same, watts can be anything!!

ranberndt

it ain't the watts that get you...it's the amps.

You will increase the amperage thru the wire by 60%....not advisable.

jjsC5

Not true.

The size of the copper conductor, along with "temperature" ratings of the insulation (and applying ambient temperature factors) are what determine how many amps can be run through a piece of wire. Amperage is a factor of watts divided by volts. More watts at the same voltage equals more amps. Most systems have a safety factor that allows you to increase the watts to a degree, but you are taking a chance that you are going over the design limit. This would "fry" connectors or the wire itself, and could result in a fire in a worst case scenario (it will heat up considerably before the actual failure). The fuse should blow before a failure though, so that is an unlikely result if you leave the stock fuse in place.

The voltage rating (or capacity) is dictated by the dielectric stength of the insulation. In fact, the only reason to insulate wire is for safety. That's why overhead lines that are well out of reach of humans, and are sufficiently isolated from paths to ground have no insulation on them at all.

cliff

so i guess im safe to do it? because the fuse would take care of it if it overloads right?

Bxscig

eh that is just totally wrong. The voltage may be the same but the amperage isn't. More current going thru it. To safely say it is ok, you have to find out the guage of the wiring and then its length.

Bxscig

the fuse will stop the surge and all but not from the current from chewing away at ur wires

cliff

oh ok, thanks for clearing it up. but do you think that 80 watts will really chew it up? i would think it would just make it really hot.

DopeTL04

You will be ok with 80

Slava

Back on my '98 Prelude I used to by 100 "watt rated" PIAA super-white bulbs to replaces stock 55 watt regular bulbs. Supposedly they were still actually 55 watts but just worked like 100 watt. Never did cause any damage to the wires but the bulbs tended to burn out after only about 6 months use. May be you should consider these as even replacing bulbs every 6 months is cheaper than replacing the electrical wiring.

They did look very nice (very white) compared to stock yellow lighting.

cliff

the ones you got that says 100W is actually 55W. they claim that it looks like it has 100W of power. im in hong kong right now and i cant wait till i get back and install them. i miss my car i got 12000K color temp tho, its suppose to bring a purple hue to it. im prob gunna get yellow ones too.

cliff

anyone know what the color temp for the stock HIDs are?

jjsC5

Keep in mind that this is from the same person who thinks that Watts don't matter!

He may be correct, but I'm thinking luck would have to be on his and your side, not engineering expertise.

DopeTL04

Going from 55watts to 80 watts is not much of a difference if you think about it. This does not even require much expertise which you seem to claim to have. Maybe your lacking in common sense should tell us not to pay attention to what you have to say!

And by the way, watts does not matter as much as voltage and amps do. YOu can easily blow a fuse if you put in a different volt bulb, but a higher watt bulb will not neccesarily damage anything as in this case!

need4spd

I agree with jjsC5 on all his posts and points, today, car makers are cutting wire safety (which means how much amps they can handle over the rated load, ie 51W) to a minimum in order to save money (copper used in wires is expensive) and wieght (better fuel economy).

I would not chance it, go no higher than 55W bulbs, which are readily available in all colors.

Not only do you have the wire ampacity to worry about, but the relay contacts (or in some newer cars, and maybe ours, a power transistor is used for switching) overheating.

I saw the svc manual wiring diagrams and saw that the fogs are now controled through a electronic controler, so I would be extra leary of going to 80Watts, otherwise you can blow this controler (I am sure they will figure out it was due to an overload, not malfunction.

One other thing about fuses protecting over current on a wire, fuses do not blow at rated current, infact they are happy at 110% of rated current (for 10A fuse, 11A is 110%), and will not blow for hours and days at that level, at 135% they blow in an hour (which could fry the wire), at 200% they blow in 2 minutes (which is a long time to a wire). Inbetween 110% and 200% the time is proportional.

fuse are thermal devices, so they heat up and melt, and like the wire, ambient temperature of where they are located effects when they blow. If the fuse is inside the kick panel of the car (under the dash) and the AC is on, but it is 93 outside, the wire outside can overheat way before the nice and cool fuse blows (and way above its rating since it is cold where it is).
Basically think of it this way, if a fuse is rated 10amps and it is 0F out, it may not blow untill a much higher rating, this is ok if the wire is there also, but if the wire is under the hood where it is nice and toasty, and the fuse is nice and cold, you have a problem.

Best solution!

You can always wire them direct with a relay rated to handle the extra power, the current fog postive wires would turn on and off the new high power relay, which is wired to the battery with an in-line fuse. This is the safest and recomended method if you MUST use an 80W bulb.

need4spd

Dope04TL, Sorry but you are wrong.

Watts is amps in this case for cars where the volts are a constant, and especially for tungsten where it is a resistive load (not inductive or capacitive).

Watts = Volts x Amps

so comparing bulbs:

80W/12V = 6.67Amps

Stock bulb is:
51W/12V = 4.25Amps


An increase of 2.42Amps (roughly a 60% increase in the amps the wire has to handle without frying the insulation and burning sourrunding plastic parts, hoses, other wires in the same bundle, etc that could cause other safety issues), not only this, but remember there are two bulbs, so somewhere from the control point, there is one wire where the increase in amps is 4.84A (so the wires go from handling 8.5A stock to 13.34A with 80W bulbs), this is a sizable jump!

An overloaded wire becomes a heating element, and who knows what Acura did to protect it, hopefully they fused it correctly, but many engineers forget that fuses do not blow at rated current (see my post above)!

Dope04TL - If I were you, I would stick to something other than electricity, especially since you do not know what you are talking about and trying to give others advice on with your lack of knowledge is flat out dangerous!

DopeTL04

Seems like your trying to get into a subject that you are not too familiar with. I would quit while your BEHIND! I changed my bulbs in a 96 galant from 55W too 100W, only problem I had was the bulb did not last more than 6 months, other than that, nothing!! that is just how it is, If mitsubishi wires dont fry, I dont think acrua will, esp at just 80 Watts......do some studying before you talk foo

PhilB

This post proves that you SHOULD NOT listen to DopeTL04 on this subject.

First of all, the 80W bulbs will be trying to draw 45% more current than than the 55W bulb at the same voltage. This is a large difference. Sometime try speeding up you PC CPU clock by 45% without changing the voltage, power supply or cooling. You'll see what could happen with your car.

DopeTL04 obviously doesn't understand the relationship between watts (power), voltage and amps (current). Power is equal to voltage multiplied by current. Thus for a given voltage, watts matters the same as amps. You will not blow a fuse by putting in a different voltage bulb. You may blow the bulb if you put in a bulb which is rated for a lower voltage than the car provides, and the bulb won't shine as bright if the bulb is rated for a higer voltage than the car.

You probably will blow a fuse if the bulb tries to draw more current (watts at a given voltage) than the car is rated to provide - but you could just as eaily fry the wire, connectors, or power supply first.

I would think you would have a hard time convincing your insurance to cover a fire claim in your vehicle if it was started because you used a bulb which was out of spec.

-phil

PhilB

Dope,

Why don't you go check out the thread that need4spd created detailing how to convert the side markers to blink. If you can properly describe how that circuit works, then I will agree that you know what you are talking about on this subject.

In the mean time, just because you stick a gun up to your head, pull the trigger and live to tell about it doesn't mean I'm going to look down the barrel of that same gun.

-phil

DopeTL04

Well you can do and think whatever you want. I am speaking from an actual experience with upgrading from a 55W to a 100W with no problem on a 96 mitsubishi. All I'm saying is that it is absolutely safe to change from 55W to 80W on a 04 Acura......I think real life experience tells us a lot more about something than some BS opinion that you guys are trying to explain! SO STOP!

Bxscig

If the wires they used are thicker and/or shorter then it is cool. It just needs to be able to substain the current.

temp, length, guage all affect it.

ndabunka

Too bad your point of reference is flawed. Even you point it out. The product you put in that car was designed to "act" like a 55w bulb. Maybe it had addtional capactiance induced in it whereas this poor guy is just trying to understand what a non-adjusted bulb will do. I'll ask that he post the pictures of the car AFTER the fire and send you the bill. Be carefull with the advice you provide. Someone might actually try to use it.

DopeTL04

YA IF THERE SMART!

need4spd

Until you have done it successfully in an 04TL then I would not say you have the experiance to speak on it either.

A 96 car's electronics and controls are much different than an 04TL, I have read the svc manual, I know.

There used to be a quick mod on the 2nd gen TL to get the fogs to come on with the parking lights, such a simple mod does not exist as many, including the fogs, are controled through a electronic controller, power is even feed trough this, cars in 96 were more direct wire, 04's are not.

Did you know there are two local area networks (LANS) in our car that control most of the functions of the cars, one is at 33.3Kbps, the other is at 500Kbps? It even has hand shake protocols and the two LANS interface in the gauge cluster?

Cars today are much more integrated electronically in an effort to reduce wires, copper, and wieght.

Do us a favor, how about you change your fogs to 80W, after a month, let us know how they work, then you will have first hand experiance at changing them, forget the mitsubishi, that does not count!

PhilB

I'm sorry, you're not helping your cause. Please learn simple english.

-phil

cliff

sorry for causing all this madness, i think ill just return the bulbs and get myself white 55w ones instead.

KeithL

Don't trust just the fuse, years ago I had added some light accessories to a circuit in a car and the fuse was fine, what was not was some switch and conductors in the steering column that the ignition turned on and off, the added current while not enough to trip the fuse generated enough extra heat to eventually soften some plastic parts by the contacts, casuing the ignitions switch to become flakey. The fuse may supply several circuits so you may not overload the fuse, but overload one of the feed wires in the circuit.

need4spd

Thanks KeithL, I think that summed up what was said rather nicely, and quickly, sort of the "cliff notes" of 80W bulbs.

Cliff, no problem, you asked a great question, glad you did. It is unfortunate that I did not recognize the troll earlier.

Road Rage

A German named Ohm might disagree with you - what do they teach in schools these days?

jjsC5

Dope, I have been in the electrical industry for 30 years. 14 of it has been in the wire and cable industry. I was in the technical sales part of the business selling highly technical power, control and instrumentation wire to large industrial complexes, electrical utilities etc. Part of what I had to know was what electrical parameters required different sizes and classes of cable.

I already stated earlier that there is excess capacity built into many circuits - which is why you were able to get away with changing the wattage of bulbs in the past. But when answering a post like this, I think it is only prudent for people like myself who happen to know more than just a little bit about the subject to give a technical answer that might prevent a problem.

And your assertation that watts does not matter as much as volts and amps shows that A) you don't understand what you are talking about, and B) you did not read my first post. I know it has now been stated several times, but watts is simply a calculation that is based upon voltage input and amperge draw of the load (the load being the light bulb in this case).

mbwmn

i've had 80w bulbs in for about 200 miles of foglight use w/ no problems.
-miike

cvajs

without all of the technical talk, most incadescent car bulbs are rated 12/14v, so i think you'd be ok on the voltage side as far as driving the bulb element. the current draw is what you need to watch out for. a 10 or even 15% increase in current should be ok, but i would be weary of a bulb that draws 45% more current as the other poster has pointed out.

really what you're after is a BETTER BULB, one that produces more lumens at 55w. Philips has come a long way in the bulb arena and their technology in bulbs seem to produce more lumens per watt than most other non-specialty bulb, they also produce a better light.

check out http://www.autolamps-online.com/index.htm

kosh2258

And of that 200 miles, how many minutes (or hours if you like) have you actually had them on? Run them continuously for a few weeks and let us know what happens since heat damage is a cumulative sort of thing.

80 watt bulbs are great! I use 'um and I love 'um. (thanks, RR for a good one liner!)

imax

Come on Phil, check his user name "DopeTL04".

UglyPsycho

i put 80w in my fogs and they blew up. it messed up the whole inside of the foglight and cracked the lens. wouldnt suggest using it

supdawg

Yes, going from 55W to 80W will eventually kill your wiring harness.

On my car now, my stock headlights are 55/65 watts. I used a 90 watt bulb. It lasted little over a year. Eventually my harness melted.


I think that the key here is the gauge wire the harness is. You can buy upgraded wire harness through some places. Although it might a little bit harder to find a wiring harness for them.

Something like this.

http://store.yahoo.com/southwestauto.../wiruphar.html

mbwmn

[QUOTE=kosh2258]And of that 200 miles, how many minutes (or hours if you like) have you actually had them on? Run them continuously for a few weeks and let us know what happens since heat damage is a cumulative sort of thing.
QUOTE]

perhaps u misread"about 200 miles of foglight use" ??
-i'll do the math for you, and keep it simple by using a 50mph average...
200 miles / 50mph = 4 hours.


i don't run them continously. i run them when i need them, like driving 2 hours each way through pouring rain w/ deer littering the sides of the highway.


btw, i've been running 90/130w H4 bulbs in the headlamps of my Toyota pickup for at least 325,000 of it's 350,000+ miles life w/ no damage to the harness. these actually have run continously for periods of 10+ hours while hauling racebikes across the country.

if i do have any problems w/ the TL's harness i'll be sure and let everyone know how the harness replacement/upgrade goes. and i'll expect a prompt "i told u so" from you



-have a nice day-
-miike

mbwmn

was this an '04 TL?

SpecialFX

I would be very cautious about changing almost anything electrical in the car. The electronics are all integrated in today's cars that if you upset the "balance" who knows what could happen. Just because the car doesn't immediately explode in your driveway doesn't mean all is well. You could have problems down the road.

And for anyone who thinks Dopey's advice is worthwhile, try reading through this mess:
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83335
Every time Dopey shows up he's telling people they don't know what "there" talking about. Then when the truth becomes clear he disappears.

żGotJazz?

OK. I'll think about it. Let's see: If voltage stays constant (and it will), your current through the system will increase in a direct relationship with wattage. Thus, the current increase will go up: (80/55) = 1.45, or 45%. Considering that fuses should be sized somwhere between 50% to 100% of expected constant load, this is a significant difference.Now THAT's very funny! Obviously, DopeTL04 - you need to read more basic physics / electronics books. Since one of the most basic laws of DC electronics is: P=IV, where:
Watts matter as much as volts and amps, because it IS volts and amps.

Continuing on ... A different volt bulb? Where do you buy your equipment? If it is made for automotive applications, it will be a 12 Volt bulb. That is, until the new automobile voltage standard gets introduced (Which is currently proposed at 48 Volts, I think - with the intent of lowering current requirements within the car).Well, if it actually does make the wire hot due to the extra current load:

1) The resistance of the wires will increase. Electrical resistance of a conductor rises with temperature.

2) If the resistance of the wires is insignificant compared to the load on the end of the wires, the current will stay fairly constant. And, as the resistance of the wires goes up from (1) above, the power dropped across the wires will increase.

3) As the power drop across the wires increases, their temperature will increase.

4) Since the temperature of the wires has increased, got back to step (1) to repeat.

This would continue until something gets in the way to stop it - such as your wire burning up, or a fuse popping, or the resistance stops increasing with temperature because of non-linearity of the resistance/temperature equations.

BTW, this is how lots of fuses work.

The length of time for the wire burn-out depends on how the increasing temperature affects the increasing wiring resistance. If the increasing tem

The reason this doesn't occur under normal circumstances is because wires don't normally get hot due to current loading if they are sized properly. Which gets us to the main point: What is the gauge of your wiring to the bulbs? Somebody with a 04TL maintenance manual may be able to provide info on this.