ndabunka

Ahh, what if we own one of each?

ndabunka

Ahh, what if we own one of each (I have a GX470 and the TL)?

sufall96

I like your style. I don't know why people put Acura on the same level with Toyota. Perfect example: my mom had a $35,000 Toyata Avalon. A friend has a 2001 IS300 which he bought brand new and paid $32,000 for and you can tell that the Lexus side of the company puts more work into their cars. The IS seemed more of a solid car and more refined. The same applies to Acura.

chiefnet

I didn't go through everyone's responses, but I see a huge difference between Lexus and Acura. QUALITY! I have never experienced any squeak and rattles in Lexus, but the TL I have has countless number or rattles and squeaks. The car feels cheap. That leads to the service department. Lexus is top notch, Acura's is horrible. I was talking with the manager, did a drive wtih him, and he is CLUELESS on things about the TL. Then there was a very noticeable rattle from my sub, and he said he couldn't hear it. I couldn't beleive it. They couldn't fix any squeak and rattles, or the drive pulling to the right, and I've taken it in 2 times already. Never dealt with those issues with Lexus. They knew everything about their own cars. The manager of the service department of Acura was asking me about what the A-spec does for the TL, can you believe that?!?! There is a huge difference between the builds and quality of Lexus and Acura. Even the plants in north america for lexus sends out pages to all managers here and in Japan if there are problems while there are builds. The problems get fixed. Acura has no such system, and to me, talking to Acura employess, they don't seem to care. You can tell cars that are built here, you can't tell with Lexus. The probs Lexus faces, they fix, obviously Acura hasn't done that between their '04 and '05s. Hopefully one day that'll happen, but I don't see it anytime soon. My 2 cents.

Tommy

Before you trash Acura and blindly praise Lexus, why don't you read some of the quotes from Lexus owners (I have owned two new Lexus L400 and three new TL's):

(1)
My ES300 has been in the shop for 3 weeks due to a "clunking noise" when
reversing the direction of the steering wheel. The dealer service people
say
a yoke in the steering column needs to be replaced but that Lexus does not
have any in stock. I asked if it was a common problem and he said it
wasn't
common but had been a repeating situation enough to exhaust the supply of
replacement parts. We have a loaner Lexus so it really isn't bothering me
that it is taking so long but it seems kinda strange.

I was wondering if anyone else had experienced this situation or something
similiar with Lexus.

(2)
I have a 2004 ES330. There is a very definate hesitation when I hit the
gas if it is necessary for the transmission to downshift. For about 1-1.5
seconds, the motor accelerates only slightly, even if I've pressed the gas
pedal to the floor. Then, after the delay, the transmission downshifts
and the motor suddenly revs up. The net effect is that when I press the gas
pedal down either moderately far or all the way to the floor, if it is
necessary for the car to downshift, there's a 1-1.5 second pause during
which the car does nothing, and then it suddenly takes off like a rocket.
It's very disconcerting because I can never predict whether this will
occur, but it happens at least half of the time. I'm very nervous about changing
lanes with this car because of this transmission. As a comparison, I used
to have a 2002 V6 Camry, which had a similar engine but a 4 speed
transmission. That car had a very quick response to the gas pedal. This
car, although very luxurious and loaded with features like Navigation,
etc., has been a major disappointment. I will not buy another 5-speed
transmission car from Toyota, and I will not buy another Lexus again,
either. This car is supposed to be Toyota's top of the line product, and
it cost a lot, yet it has a design flaw that makes it substandard. I just
wish that Toyota would equip its 4 speed transmission Camry (I know it has a
smaller 4 cylinder motor, but it's quite capable) with amenities like
Navigation and VSC/TRAC. I would trade this Lexus in in a heartbeat just
to get the much better 4 speed transmission.

(3)
On MSN auto reviews, the es330 is being taken to shreds for this exact
problem. I hope Lexus notices soon. I have a 2004 es330, and have not
experianced the problem yet. Its around 500 miles, so I am not driving it
hard. I hope mine does not have that issue. Is there anyone here with a
es330 that doesnt have this issue?

(4)
Transmission is not very good; there is a hesitation when you press on the accelerator which can be dangerous when you're trying to pull out into traffic. It is jerky when you press the gas at low speeds. Lexus says this is just the way the new 5 speed transmission is, and they have had a lot of complaints, but they aren't doing anything about it right now.

(5)
The drivers seat was very uncomfortable, stering very vague, car was sluggish, TRANSMISSON DIDN'T RESPOND WHEN PUT INTO PASSING GEAR, 1ST GEAR OF TRANSMISSION WAS VERY SLUSHEY, WHEN IN SLOW TRAFFIC ON FREEWAY TRANSMISSON SHIFTS ERRACTICALLAY. WHEN I TEST DROVE THE CAR I DIDN'T PICK UP ON THESE PROBLEMS. TEST DRIVE A CAR MORE THAN ONCE AND FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. TAKING CAR AROUND THE CORNER DOSN'T WORK.

(6)
The Transmission is a problem. Cannot decide what to shift into when traveling between 25 to 40 mph. Traded the vehicle in for an Acura because Lexus did not respond to my complaint in a timely manner.

(7)
Terrible transmission downshift delay, poor gas mileage, instrument panel gauges (speedo, tach, gauges) not as snazzy as those of Camry

(8)
Car Drifts. Dealer could not fix it. Had to use an outside shop. Car Rattles. Ever hear of a Lexus that rattles? Service Department has been awful. They sell the car of quality and service. I have not seen either.

(9)
The drive is good if you are driving straight. This car does not have the handling ability that Mercedes or BMW have and it does not corner well. The car separates the driver from the road more than American cars do. It is one thing to be comfortable, but this car feels like you are driving a bus. The drive is a constant challenge, which makes me feel there is something wrong with the overall design of this vehicle.

(10)
It has been a year that I have this car but I still can't get used to the front headlights, or the front beak. They are about 3 feet long each and I never understood the reason for such a horrible design. Whoever designed this car has no sense of proportion and should be fired. This car does not respond to the gas pedal. It takes time for this car to accelerate after you press the gas pedal and it is unpredictable. The drive is extremely Boring. The leather feels eecky. Also sometimes I can,t tell the difference between this car and a Toyota Camry without reading the model name.

I am not saying Lexus cars are bad. In fact I think they are excellent cars, just like Acura are excellent cars. But it is biased to sing praise to one brand while trashing another when they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

sufall96

:a

chiefnet

Just like everyone you quoted here, I also have my own opionion and have owned both also. I did not have an ES, I had an IS, but quality is quality. My cousin has a 4 year old ES and he said he never has had a rattle and the only time he took it in for service was for oil changes and maintenence. I also had 3 Fords, Jag S, and Nissan maxima, and out of all the cars, the TL has had the worst and most problems. Maybe my dissappointment is that I always praised japenese cars and quality (I also worked at a Japanese company for 4 years), but looking at all the complaints in the forums, I'm not the only one. I just wish the service was atleast good, but they don't seem to competent, so that has a lot to do with it. By far, in its class, this car has the most interior appeal. I'm just surpised with the number of problems with a fairly brand new (1 month when the problems became annoying) had.

gtgrad95

Tommy, thanks for the perspective from a first hand ES owner. I'm confused though, do you still have the ES or did you trade it in for a TL?

RedRSXGrrl

The only Lexus that I'll get is the IS300. When I think of Lexus I think of the older generation. Don't ask me why, but I just do, so I don't want to associate myself with that age group as yet

Basically, I'm a sports car type of gal.

Tommy

Sorry for the confusion. No, I previously had two new Lexus L-400 (company car) and 2 TL's (97 and 00). When I was thinking about replacing my 00-TL I looked at the ES 330 but I found all these complaints particuarly about the hesitation problem. Then I looked at the TL and I liked it a lot better than when it first came out. So I ended up with a new 05-TL w/NAV two weeks ago. Have been very happy - no rattle, no right leaning, no problem large or small whatsoever. My experience with the 97 and 00 was also postive, but I was more used to the body style of the 97 and 00. It took me a while to like the 3G look but I must say it is growing on me.

MR1

Regarding quality...every make has problems at some point. Old timers tried not to get an American car built on Monday or Friday. Today, some still get a car put together with not the best of care. I think most here can agree the the Acura dealership service experience can also leave something to be desired.

There is a learning curve for everything new. In the past, most foreign cars were introduced in their home markets a few years before being sold here. Some models still are. This prior sales history gave mfg time to get the kinks worked out prior to our receiving the 'new' model. We then preceived that all of their cars were problem free. So far I'm happy with my Honda/Acura purchases but still, always hope for a little more.

Regarding respect... many in our society think more expensive is better, anyone want Acura to just raise their prices so we get more respect?

chiawei

the hesitation problem on the 5 speed is not due to the transmission itself. It's simply a very poor job of mapping the electronic throttle. And problem is not as severe as those post on the edmunds.com. People tend to over exaggerate the problem. The hesitation is almost none existent.

As far as why acura does not get respect. Simple, the cars are not that greatly assembled, nor comes with high grade of material.

I had numerous problem with my 00 TL. Even though I had a chance to buy another TL for my commute, at the end I pass and bought a E500 instead.

I will not go back to Honda/Acura until they really take the time to get their act together.

Lexus/BMW/MB are not over priced, because after owning one, you would notice the difference in terms of build quality and mechanical soundness.

BMW/MB are not trobule free, but mechanically and design wise are much better than Honda. I never had any issues with BMW/MB/toyota/lexus brakes warpage or as bad of a fade as brakes on Acura/Honda. Transmission wise, my 00 TL transmission is horror show. I had tons of rattles and broken interior piece. This is not what an entry level luxury car should have.

ES330 is expansive and is a luxury version of camry. But a similarly equipped Camry SE is not that cheap either, you are looking at $26k large already. No one is buying ES330 at sticker. So the real market price is not a huge difference.

Respect is gained by offering better product, not just on paper. Acura has done a good job in release product that looks good on paper, but can't stand up to real world ownership. I don't think you would see butt print on a 30k car other than acura.

SilverCL225hp

There is no doubt all Acura vehicles are excellent vehicles. But being excellent doesn't mean they exude the luxury feelings. It is lacking two important factors. First, the flagship of Acura lineup, RL, still uses a V6 engine. Nobody cares how good this engine is, because a V6 is just not a V8. Second, almost all Acura vehicles are front wheel drive, then what is the difference between Honda and Acura? There is very clear difference between Lexus and Toyota as well as Infiniti and Nissan. Having excellent fit and finish is good, but don't forget the basic-the mechanical parts of the car. Buying luxury cars actually give the buyers some kind of bragging feels, while the actual content isn't that important. Also, I do agree that RSX is hurting the Acura's image, so it should really be put on a Honda badge instead. Without HIDs and Navi even as options, I don't know what is RSX so "luxurious" about? After so much comments, I guess Acura still doesn't care. Why should they? As long as their cars sell. Nowadays the true and successful luxury car companies are actually Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Lexus. Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti, Audi, and Volvo are following but not yet there. Land Rover and Porsche are taking different routes. Jaguar, Saab, and Lincoln never come to my mind when talking about luxury cars.

sufall96

I do agree that the RSX should be dropped from the Acura name. But other than that I disagree that there's not much difference from an Acura to a Honda. My wife and I recently went to a local Honda dealership to look at an Accord and man after driving a 04TL everyday I can really tell a big difference. In the TL the leather is better, the car is more sealed in the TL than the Accord. The Accord felt hollow compared to the TL. Of course the TL is much faster and handles much better. It has more features must I go on. I might add I owned a 97 Accord and then went to a 03TL Type S. And if you're talking TSX it feels almost as good as the TL only not as much power but after driving one it actually handles better and has stonger brakes than the TL. Anyway I'm getting off the subject Honda is no comparison for Acura. It only has some DNA Traits.

rjheard

Is it really worth arguing about? Both Lexus and Acura make good vehicles as a general rule. Both will have some lemons but it's really a matter of personal preference, one make is not the best for everyone across all models. Burger King or McDonalds, Huntz or Heinz, Mayo or Mustard. Buy what you like and if it's the best car you ever owned great, you'll still probably be looking for something different in a few years.

Squealing3.2

I beat the living shit out of my 2000 Acura TL. I'm the second owner and four wheel drifts are normal on the way to work. No issues yet.

mio

lexus .... luxury? why? I can only see a f ugly unfashionable interior.... (well, except the new GS.)

I cannot see nothing is better than ACURA.... (oh, the price is higher than ours!)

I only like the 2006 GS300/430 ....

but for that price, I'd rather to get an German car~

boltjames

Mercedes Benz and BMW are alone at the top of the Luxury Car pyramid.

Lexus is lumped in with Acura, Infiniti, Jaguar and other brands a step below those two.

BJ

Magnutz

Agree

kilroy

Part of the problem with Acura's image is that the quality of the dealers isn't nearly as consistent as Lexus or Mercedes. I bought my 00 TL from a dealer in Houston that wasn't nearly as nice as the new Honda dealership down the road. Everytime I got a loaner, I would have to sit down with the service advisor for what seemed like an hour while he filled out paperwork by hand.

Contrast that with my brother's loaner pickup at Lexus - he would drive up and they would have a car waiting for him. They had everything computerized so they didn't need to redo all the paperwork. They even managed to keep their service advisors for more than three months.

I know there are much better Acura dealers than these (I have one now), but crappy dealers are a turnoff the general car buying public.

mickey3c

The quality of an acura is not as good as a lexus .. period!

boltjames

The perception of a luxury car has NOTHING to do with quality. If it were, Mercedes Benz and BMW would be considered budget cars. The mechanical problems, the expensive repairs.....I know at least 12 people who own these cars and spend more time in the shop than on the road.

We're talking about PERCEPTION of luxury, nothing more.

In that regard, the average Man on the Street American sees MB and BMW at the top of the heap and the rest of 'em lumped together in "not quite there yet" land. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Jaguar are in that second-tier group.

BJ

Legend2TL

Quite true.

jtow

First of all, you'll have to remember that people usually post more negative things than positive about their cars. I haven't had any problems with my '05 and i'm not going to sit here and geek out on every little thing I love about my car. Honda is an unmatched product bar-none. You don't see Acura owners questioning if they should have gone with that Daewoo right? The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Acura owners will always wonder if they should have gone with Lexus, it's part of shopping for a car. A lot of the complaints are with the service departments rather than the product itself. To all my Acura-owners out there who think Lexus service is infallible: in 2002 when I dropped off my IS300 for service, they gave me an old Chevy 2 door crap-box to drive (Enterprise rental car's cheapest vehicle) because they didn't have any more Lexus loaners and yes it was a POS. They had to replace my in-dash CD changer 3 times because certain brand CD's that were burned would get stuck in there.. Yes, things like this happen at Lexus too. I had to get rid of the IS300 for personal reasons, when it was time to get another new car I could have easily bought another Lexus. It's not that I have more or less money than someone that drives a Lexus but when my 1994 Acura Integra GSR saved my life in a 60mph head on collision, coupled with the astounding performance and luxury per dollar value you get with the Acura, it's earned my loyalty for LIFE. I could give a crap if the service department doesn't hand me a cup of coffee when I'm dropping off my car for service. If I can drop off my car and get an Acura loaner to get to work that's all I need.

-JTOW

jtow

Why would you determine what is and what is not "Luxury" by it's price? Again mentioned in other threads, it's the "perception" of luxury, and Acura owners are smart enough to see through the fluff of high prices and mentions in rap music.

If you're comparing.....
i.e.:

RSX 20k-nothing
TSX 27k-niothing
TL 35k IS 300/ES 300 35k
MDX 40k RX 330 40k
nothing-GS 300 40-45k
nothing-GX 470 50k
RL 50k-nothing
nothing-GS430-50-55k (V-8)
nothing-LS 430 (55-70k)
nothing-LX 470(70k)
nothing-SC 430 (65k)
NSX 90k-nothing

I could easily ask, where is the Lexus supercar to contend with the NSX..? Oh.. that's right.. the Supra got pulled because it was OVERPRICED, Or what about Honda being the only company in existance to produce the most horsepower per cylinder of any engine with a PRODUCTION vehicle (Type-R Integra). I would never badmouth Lexus/Toyota because they make a fantastic product but I'll take the Pepsi challange with my TL over an IS300/ES300 any day of the week.

F-Prices
NSX vs. Nothing
S2000 vs. Nothing
TL vs. IS300/ES300 a Camry?
If you can do this with a Flagship vehicle on the Lexus side, let me know:

TLVR

IMHO-It all boils down to marketing, Why should anyone develop an inferiority complex because they ended up with a TL instead of a LS 430? The Lexus crowds spends more and should get all the warm and fuzzy treatment it can get. I am happy with my choice- the most bang for my hard earned buck -$30K worth! We should be more concerned with good engineering ,which we got,han what others think of our decisions. The marketing Lexus people are geniuses at pushing our buttons but us TL ers know we did good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lodi781

The fact is, in the 25-35 age range, you can't find a better quality car that is within your price range. Let's face it, most of us in this age demographic are making fairly good saleries, but not enough to buy a high end car. I'm trying to buy a house(ridculus prices) and can't drop 40k+ on a car. Acura fills that viod for most of us. plus it's reliable as hell. As a former nissan owner, I would never go back to that company. For one, they are owned by a french company(renault). 2 there waranties aren't worth the paper they are written on, and 3, I think the nissan line up is ugly as hell. Lexus is a great car, but rear wheel drive, and living in new england, that just isn't feesable with our winters. I know lexus makes an all wheel drive version of the g 35, but I think it's ugly. Just my two cents........

MattB

Acura's problems in my opinion can be traced to its flagship, the RL, and its low end, the RSX. The RL has always tried to span the class between the Lexus GS and LS. almost answering a question that nobody asked. The RSX should have a Honda badge; it's not a luxury car in any way, shape or form. And because it and the Integra before it have sold well, I get the impression that many people think of the Integra, not the TL and RL, when they think Acura.

njzprettyboy

this thread is a joke.

KJSmitty

True, but maybe we can get just a few more repeated emotional opinions so this "luxury" 8 page write-up can hit the 200 posts mark.....

They're all "cars". Some just cost more than the others....

"Stop the insanity"

Cheers

jdone

The new Lexus I250 coming in September offers awd.

tims1448

This is a funny debate, since Acura is not meant to be a "total luxury" line. You are all forgetting that Honda made Acura to make $$$, plain and simple. The line was designed to have 2 luxury cars (TL and RL), 2 sport cars (RSX, TSX) and 1 SUV (MDX) to take the market share in the 20-40K range, which they have done very successfully. They marketed it beautifully, you all are just missing the point of the marketing.

Acura is just like Nissan, they have regular cars and then offer the Maxima as their Luxury option. Both Acura and Nissan are particularly profitable.

With all that said, I have 3 friends with IS300's, 2 with 330's and one with a Maxima, all of which drool over my TL when I pull in..so who cares? If you want to be perceived as rich, buy a BMW, but realize that a TL will smoke you on any track in the world.

NFLblitze1

i havn't read through this whole thread...but im gonna answer the topic question...the one HUGE REASON why LEXUS is so much better than ACURA....is SERVICE....acura service is probably one of the worst, my cousin owns a saturn, and they get better service from saturn then i do from acura. alot of people say you pay for the service when it comes to BMW, MERCEDES, LEXUS...which somewhat is true aside from BMW service going down the shitter...

tims1448

unfortunately you cannot have one blanket statement like "Lexus service is good." it is all based on the dealer. There are pleny of bad Lexus service centers as well. Don't make that mistake. Every dealership has a different committment to excellence, so when you choose a place to take your car in for service, you have to check it out.

We have one Horrible Acura service center near where I live, but there are 2 a bit futher out of the way that have made me 100% happy with my investment. Likewise, there is a Lexus dealership locally that is absolutely horrid, but several good ones.

Turbowhat2

Lexus doesnt make cars that have fucked up transmissions like the 2g TL

Lexus also doesnt make cars that leave you with butt prints after 1 year

Lexus costs more than Acura, and in the current market for cars, you wont understand why one is better than the other until you own a car from each company.

In our house I have the TL, and my parents both have Lexus' You can tell the difference in build quality between the Lexus' and the Acura

NFLblitze1

of course its a matter of dealership commitment, but Acura isn't known for their service im sure that there are plenty more Lexus dealerships that are more accomadating and professional than most Acura dealerships.

boltjames

As you pull up to the country club, the Acura and Lexus both get the same parking spot.

The Mercedes and the BMW's get the good spots right in front.

It's PERCEPTION, not quality.

There are plenty of Seiko watches out there that keep better time and are more durable than their Rolex counterparts. The Seiko won't get you a hot girl, though.

Perception.

BJ

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

It's interesting -- when people discuss how they "interpret" build quality in their vehicles, it's important to note, I think, that their "interpretation" is coming exclusively, oftentimes, from only the interior/cabin: like the feel of the leather, the joints and seams and the fit and finish of the buttoms, dashboard, center console, etc. The next most common source of reference seems always to be exterior paint finish, paint flaws, and seams at the doors and how well the gaps b/w doors are parallel and perfectly spaced, etc.

I've never read anyone report that the wheels on the lexus/mb/bmw were torqued down better than the Acura, or that the fuel injectors were screwed in tighter than the bimmer. I dunno, I guess my point (if there is one) is that for me, sensory input is huge when driving -- i.e. what you see, feel, smell, hear (rattles!!!) .. and these sensory inputs convey to me a sense of 1) good build quality, or 2) not good or average build quality.

However, the most important benchmark of quality, ultimately, should be what's not seen normally -- like the everything that makes up the engine, the tranny, and the drivetrain, etc. And where Acura does compete very strongly w/ BMW/Mb/Lexus, I think, is in the category of all those mechanical things that aren't seen (engine/tranny(the '04+) etc).

MattT516

I love how this JDM car has a V8 and 18'' alloy wheels, whereas the RL offers some weak ass stock alloys and a V6. That picture does nothing for the argument whatsoever. If the RL had a smooth V8 and some better features like that off-the-hook Mugen has, Acura would be having a hell of a lot more buyers for the RL.

And as for the argument, I love how everyone is mentioning how bad the quality of Lexus' are based on a few special cases when we all know it's top of the line in the world of automobiles. There's a reason why Lexus wins #1 in J.D. Power and Associates almost every single year and Acura is in the middle of the field. I love my Acura to death but there's no doubt in my mind that Lexus is a better quality automobile than an Acura. Transmission problems, door panel peeling off, headliner falling apart, tons of undetectable rattles, that's what we have with our cars. I do however, like Acura's features and exterior much more, and I find the Lexus brand to be boring aside from a few cars here and there. That's why I picked the Acura... now enough of this Acura vs Lexus crap, it's really going nowhere.

Turbowhat2

Actually here in the Plano area you would be dead wrong. Lexus/MB/BMW are almost equal here. Lexus does not make a serious performance line, so of course the M models and SL models are better than lexus because lexus doesnt even have a car in that class. However the LS430 competes with the 7 series and S class very well. and there are about 10 people at my school with IS300's that could have bought 3-series or c-classes.