gtgrad95

I'm wondering why most people don't think of Acura as a "luxury" division. It simply doesn't get the same respect as Lexus does. The more I think about it, I can see how this point is valid:

1. The cheapest Acura (the RSX) starts out at $20K. This means that more people can get into an Acura, with a lot less money, even college students. It kind of diminishes the "luxury" image that Honda wants to protray for the Acura divsion. On the other hand, the least expensive Lexus (the IS300) still costs $30K, which eliminates a lot of people who don't want to spend more than 25-30K for a car.

2. There is no car between the TL and the flagship RL. Lexus has the GS that is b/w the ES and it's flagship, the LS. This draws more people over there who want to spend around 40K, want more luxury than the ES, both don't want to necessarily jump into the $50s.

3. The difference between a Lexus showroom and an Acura showroom is night and day. The Acura dealers I've walked into look exactly like Honda dealers with no difference. Walking into a Lexus showroom is light years ahead of a Toyota showroom. You get free drinks, snacks, leather couches, and much more. I wish Acura would distinguish themselves more in this area.

4. The redesigned RL still looks more like a "sports" car, than a true luxury car, like the LS. In my opinion, I don't think you need a sporty styling, sporty rims, etc. on a car that is meant to compete with the LS's, A6s, etc and the luxury minded 40+ crowd. Don't get me wrong, the interior is definately on par with the best luxury sedans.

In conclusion, I would like Honda to take more steps to better distinguish its Acura line as a true luxury division. I am a soon-to-be TL owner and am very excited. However, I don't get the same "wow" reaction from people if I tell them I'm buying a Lexus. If they could eliminate the RSX and add a car between the TL and RL, I think that would definatley be a start. Also, they could make the RL into a true luxury car much like the LS, that would work too. On the flip side, I guess if they are setting sales records left and right, why try to fix something that's not broke, right?

F23A4

:IBT1SICKLEXLISTSWHY: -in advance

Diver

That's actually the reason why I like Acura more then Lexus

MADCAT

Unfortunately, it has to do with money. Acura people have a bit less money than the Lexus people. But doesn’t mean our cars an inferior or less respected. It’s actually the other way around. Toyota cars are for more older people with more money, Acura cars for younger people with less money. For performance, we run rings around the Toyota cars.

You’ve seen how hot our cars can be. Can you really pimp out a Toyota Camry or ES3000 without being laughed at?

gtgrad95

Quote: "You’ve seen how hot our cars can be. Can you really pimp out a Toyota Camry or ES3000 without being laughed at?"

I definately see your point there!

soopa

1. Acura's cost less. This dilutes brand image.

2. Acura has not had a desireable car, until now, with the TL... and possibly with the RL... for quite some time.


The average joe can afford a vehicle with an Acura badge, a lexus... they cannot.

The grey area is the entry level 30k. Lexus with the IS... etc.


But even then, its 30k+


With Acura, you have the integra, now the RSX. The TSX is in a bit of a grey area itself.


But Acura will never improve their image while they offer sub 30k cars, let alone sub 25k.



Frog Design... a branding agency... has handled the brand image of Acura for a few years now. Acura seems to ignore them in practice. They used to have a full page report on the brand image of Acura on their site... i just checked quick and it seems to be gone. But have a look... www.frogdesign.com

EDIT: Or this: Frog Design's Acura Client

xfact0r

Part of it has to do with Lexus' marketing. They market strictly towards a higher end market whereas Acura markets to a much broader market. I tend to find more Acura drivers are car enthusiasts as opposed to Lexus drivers, based on personal experience. When you mention to a Lexus owner that the IS300 is really a Toyota rebranded with the Lexus badge and only offered for sale as a Lexus in North America, they chose to live in ignorance. My 2 cents...

cM3go

if Lexus owners or the general population wants to think they have a better car because they paid more, so be it, I was in my friend's new 2004 545i this past weekend, he even said the interior is lame, said the TL's was nicer, and the navigation on the BMW blows, I can attest to that, smart buyers choose the right cars, who cares what other people think, you know you have a nice car, and thats all that matters

F23A4

However, IMHO Bimmer mainstreamers are more into name/image than features.

soopa

You do realize we drive Honda's rebadged as Acuras? For the most part.

But I'd agree with marketting, read Frog Designs report... their the marketting agency Acura uses.

EMF213

I think Acura has it right, and generally are better at giving consumers what they want; near-lux level, extremely well-performing, well-built cars at a fair price. To hell with the perceived "respect...."

To me, Lexus is waaay overpriced for what you get. I have always loved the GS (my in-laws have one), but to be honest, I'm not paying $40k for that car! It's just not worth it. My 04 Maxima was bigger, tons more powerful, and had more features and was almost as nice on the inside...for $10k+ LESS! My TL, IMO, is also more powerful, and a better built car with higher quality components than the GS, and it's $10k LESS!!

As for the LS, I don't understand anyone paying mid $50's for THAT car....WHY?? If I was to spend that amount, I'd be looking at a 5 Series or an E320.

Agreed, Lexus does a good job marketing, but to an educated consumer they're not worth it.



PS - To the point that Acura hurts itself by offering cars in the $20k range....This might be a valid point, but both BMW and Mercedes realize that not everyone can afford a car between $40k and $100k, and both offer smaller cars starting in the upper $20s...

soopa

The navigation blows, yes.

As for the interior design. Thats all eye of the beholder.


Personally, I agree with you. But many would not... for no reason other than they trully think it looks better.


Theres something for everyone... nothing wrong with that.

te3point5

Well built? I think your falling headliner gave you a concussion...

OK, i'll be nice, seeing as how its the first of a new mode...
But if all the issues that I'm seeing on this board regarding quality continue, Then I will have to disafree with that quote.

Goldglv

I agree here, definitely not well built, car feels too 'loose' when driving, it doesn;t have that 'tight' feeling I had with my Lexus. Don't get me wrong, I really do like the car but it doesn't feel well put together at all.

Jerky

Acura is making leaps and bounds with the new TL, the brand will certainly be elevated with the new TL and RL.

It's true about Lexus, they are a luxury car, for an older crowd, Lexus does not have a flagship sports car, like the NSX.

Acura markets and targets a different segment, this is the law of marketing...

J RIDE 81

I personally think of Acura and Lexus as being almost the same, I dont think Lexus has anything on me, except for the LS of coarse.

gtgrad95

I guess the SC400 would be it, but doesn't come close...

gtgrad95

I think that a lot of this (I hate to say it) has to do with the fact that Lexus' are built in Japan, whereas most Acuras are built here. The quality control is probably much tighter over there.

I may be wrong, but I think that the S2000 had less quality issues than other Hondas b/c it's built in Japan in the same factory as the NSX.

cblackburn

I would never think of my Acura as a 'luxury' car. It's an upper end car for sure, but not luxury. Whenever I start to think of it as the same level as Lexus, I quickly recall the vibration rattles that I still have, then paint peelng from under the passenger headlight, and the bad rattle whenever I play any music with the slightest bass. Acura has a ways to go before than can compare themselves to Lexus on the 'luxury level. Acura is more fun tho. *Perhaps* the RL is closer, but I don't know.. I haven't driven them before. But heck, I'd even consider the ES330 more 'luxury' than the TL and it (the ES330) is nothing more than a dolled up camery.

Eduardo

Would tend to agree 'generally' with this statement . Thought you find people into the image-mentality with most entry-level/luxury automobiles.

Now those people into 330i ZHP's are into the performance of their automobile rather than the gadgets and image an automobile is supoosed to convey!

HEHEHE.

blackjackman

ACURA is the Rodney Dangerfield (RIP) of cars.

Avatar72

Ever seen this?

A Always
C Catching
U Up
R Rarely
A Ahead

F23A4

My wife is potentially one of those BMW mainstreamers. She's more than willing to drop $35-large on a well optioned 325i but wouldnt consider doing the same for a TL or G35 w/navi.

TXTL

I hate the fact that Honda and Acura share parts. It's OK to use the same part but they should be brand named. This is my 4th Acura and all the windows say "Honda". As for price, Acura has taken the approach of offering a value priced line of autos. I'm more than able to purchase a Lexus or BMW but why spend the extra money. Acura offers a similar if not better auto less money. I'm very happy with my Acura logos vs. those others...

Dkrudop

Hey we all know about "perception." BMW/M-B/Audi....and to a lesser extent, Lexus.....have the public's perception as "Oooooooo factor" cars. BUT.........(and I know....getting a great rating from Consumer Reports is like kissing your sister...though I've never kissed YOUR sister so I can't comment)...look at the "reliability" ratings of BMW, M-B, & Audi as opposed to Lexus AND our beloved Acura. Then look at the number of recommended models from each company. You'll find that Lexus & Acura both fare FAR better than the Germans. I think I'd rather drive my TL and know it's there for me every day than to have the caché vehicle that might not start tomorrow morning.

Yes, we know there are TL's with problems....no car is perfect.....but in general, it appears as though the reliability rating of Acura is solid and resepctable. I must admit, too.......sometimes I wonder if there are driving habits which contribute to the rattles and feelings of "looseness" we hear complaints about from time to time. Not ALL of them of course.........but don't you think it's possible some of our brethren are bordering on abuse of their vehicles when they drive (especially the "I beat a C5 going 390 mph on Lombard St. in San Fran with my handbrake on" types)?

ward148

I have know idea who Lexus targets? Anyone with money would never even consider a Lexus...I have never seen any successful person driving a lexus, so i have no idea why thay would even be considered a luxury car. (but i guess thay are) Anyone that wonts a luxury car knows were to go and it's not the Lexus dealer .....

BMW= luxury car (all ages)
MB= luxury car (all ages)
Lexus= considered luxury (dont know what ages)
Acura= highend car (younger to the young at heart)

And sense 1SICKLEX loves to roast the Acura TL maybe he can teach me alittle about the lexus and why its great


I must unfortunately agree, thay put cars together better. But i would rather keep the jobs here, then to have them built elsewhere

aGenKa

does anyone else think acura needs a v8 in its lineup?

i think the ls430 is a very respectable car and people do opt for that instead of the s-class/a8/7-series. it just won the motor trend comparo for luxury cars i believe

te3point5

ther LS wins alot over the Sclass and Bimmer and Audi. THe main thing is the quality of the build, the second thing is the utter reliability of Toyotas engines.

Mercedez and BMW have the name... And to be honest, knowing how German cars are going (down hill) Given a choice between 7 series and Lexus, I'd STILL choose the 7 series. I guess I'm vain

Eduardo

Registered Nurses drive Lexus.

EMF213

1) I have no problems with my TL, Headliner is fine....

2) I had an Integra for 9 years (got it when I was in college), not ONE problem.

04tlnbppar

When you bring your Acura for service, you would realize that it's just another Honda car. All Lexus are made in Japen. Acura are made in US except TSX that's why it has less problems.

dabuda

i think one of the main reasons is there's no V8. honda has always been thought as manufacturing economical and fuel efficient vehicles. not heavy, powerful, ultralux vehicles.

te3point5

Yeah but I'll bet the Integra you had was built in Japan. I am not making up the problems the TL has, everyother thread on this forum is, "my tires suck", "My headliner keeps falling", "rattle this", "Rattle That", "my leather wrinkled" "My lip spoiler fell off""... the list goes on.

Its a build quality issue with things being made int he US. I have the same thing with my Maxima, I had a 1997 Maxima (built in Japan) and I now have a 2003 Maxima, (built in US) ANd the build quality is horrible. Not well put together at all. I want my next car to be japanese made.

You said in your originial post that acuras make quality, and just by reading the posts, that seems to not be the case..

Like I said, I'm not making it up, look at the threads on this board.

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

http://www.frogdesign.com/client/acura/index.html

caha14

I don't think it's simply a "made in the US vs. Japan" thing. My 3 Accords (built in Ohio) have been fantastic. My 2002 TL-S (which I got rid of) was an absolute embarrassment. Rattles, a misterious vibration (sort of like the one in the '04 TL - the driveline one, not the tire related issue) that the dealer couldn't fix so they said it was "normal" (after replacing a ton of parts), crappy leather, brake problems, you name it. Interestingly enough, my tranny never died...

I hate to admit this, but I had more problems with the TL than with the Detroit-built Grand Cherokee it replaced. Things got so bad with the TL that I got Acura Client (Dis)Services involved. They treated me like shit, like my satisfaction as a customer didn't matter. Needless to say, neither the quality of the car nor the customer service was much of a "luxury" experience. As I've said in other posts, it's not about the problems (which all cars can have), it's about how you handle them. I've been a huge fan of Honda engineering and products over the years (this is why I hang around here), but my experience with Acura has turned me away. It is a shame to see that such a beautiful car which is ahead of the pack in powertrain, features, and price can have so many issues still.

I now own a Lexus, and the build quality is way superior to any Acura, even the TSX which I really liked when I had one as a loaner last year. The fun factor is definitely less, but I feel that my business is appreciated and not taken for granted. Hopefully I won't have any serious issues, but if I do, I hope the service experience will be better. The sales experience (for me personally) was great, though from what I've read at clublexus.com there are quite a few rotten apples selling Lexus out there... Definitely, no car company is perfect, but some are better than others.

Anyway, back to my original point... As other people have stated, the difference is in quality standards and control, not on the location of the plants... Check out this article about Toyota's Tahara plant quality control. It will shed some light...

http://www.detnews.com/2004/specialr.../a15-70498.htm

Sorry for the long post...

vtechbrain

The CRV's that burst in flames are made in Japan. Mitsubishis are also made in Japan (where they hid recalls on faulty parts). All subarus come from the land of the rising sun. Most of the bad Honda V6's trannies were designed and built in Japan.
The truth is that the country of origin is inmaterial, what is important is the corporate structure, the relationship with suppliers and the corporate quality control mechanisms. The truth is that most assembly jobs don't take much skill at all, thats why machines have and will continue to take over those jobs that are just boring and repetitive and do a better job at it than people ever will.

Shoot2Thrill

IMHO Lexus/Toyota makes the finest cars in the world. They may not be the sportiest! The paint on a paint alone on the ES 300 Lexus is so far superior to the TL. The bumpers actually match!

planman

And don't forget that Audi is bringing over the A2 (I think?) and BMW wants to bring the 1-series to the States. Most high end car makers are shifting focus to create customers for life...brand loyalty.

Guess we'll see if it works or just weakens their "luxury" status...

Avatar72

I think Lexus has the nicest car paint than any other maker. Every color thay somehow make is nice and looks classy. Especially black. I hate white cars but I'd take a LExus white over some other makers black any day.

1SICKLEX

This thread=
Lexus is superior to Acura is almost everyway possible. We are not talking TL vs Lexus. We are talking Brand for Brand. Since boths inception;
Looking at Acura, they entered the market first in 1986 but were never considred luxury until the 2nd gen Legend. The 1st gen Legend won Import Car of the Year. Since then, I don't think any Acura has ever won an award from a magazine. Acura never intended to fight Benz or BMW head on. Acura was a brand created for people to have a nice Honda to move up too.
Lexus on the other hand spent $1 billion on the 1st gen LS 400 alone to compete head to head with BMW and Benz. The funny thing is they laughed it off. Lexus became the #1 selling import brand in 3 YEARS!
Now Lexus is revered and the term "Lexus-Like" comes to mind with luxury, isolation, customer service etc. The LS 400 was voted one of the 100 most important cars ever created. Nice start!
Lexus is the best selling and the highest quality car out there. This is a fact.
The SC 300/400 were import car of the year, 6 time Automobile picks, etc etc.

The car companies are on 2 different wavelengths.
LExus is sold worldwide. Finally in 2006, in Japan as well.
Acura is ONLY sold in the United States.

That right here is a HUGE difference.

If you look at the lineups, you will see the 2 really don't compete head to head. Lexus goes after BMW and Benz. Acura is still a car for Honda owners to move up too.
RSX 20k-nothing
TSX 27k-niothing
TL 35k IS 300/ES 300 35k
MDX 40k RX 330 40k
nothing-GS 300 40-45k
nothing-GX 470 50k
RL 50k-nothing
nothing-GS430-50-55k (V-8)
nothing-LS 430 (55-70k)
nothing-LX 470(70k)
nothing-SC 430 (65k)
NSX 90k-nothing

Looking at the cars sold currently, Acura offers the new V-6 only RL and NSX over 40k.
Luxury cars are determined at 40k and up. Lexus offers 5 cars above 40k.

Even looking at popular culture, i.e celebrities, atheletes, musicians, they do not buy Acuras. They buy Benzs, Lexus and BMWs. Those real wealthy ones don't fock around and buy Ferraris, Bentley's etc.
Shoot just listen to any rap song (what is now the top selling music). Acura is never mentioned.

Lexus has the highest rated car plants in history for quality. Lexus understands one of their main sellng points is quality.

Lexus has made mistakes. The ES 250 was literally a rebadged Camry. The 1st gen GS 300 did not offer a V-8 and sold poorly (hello Acura, u watching?).

9,000 deposits are made for a 42k RX 400h Hybrid. That is unheard of for such an expensive car.

If you go to the Acura website and go to the Lexus websites on awards and accolades, there is no comparison. I don't want to cut and paste it again.

Acura does make good cars. They have woken up from that silly 1994-2000 period. Their lineup is a great improvement. The Tl is one of the best new cars out there period from any brand.