04AcuraTL

I Think What Lexus has Over Acura is That...if u look at the acura's...they are just hondas with a emblem n a lil bit more Example: RSX Based off the civic the TL Based off the Acoord..the MDX based off the pilot with the expemption of the big boy RL. now look at lexus the only copy they have is the ES which is the camry theres no toyota version of the LS IS or SC..another Point Lexus has is..only the ES (which if im not mistaken the fist Lexus to be Made) is the only FWD car they have...as oppsed to Acura which all of their cars are FWD with the excepetion of the RL this yr is AWD

terse

i think it's all because of the integra...no integra = no ricers = high status

avs007

Infiniti is similar. With the departure of the I35, none of the Infiniti vehicles are based on Nissan cars sold in the US, nor FWD. I'm not sure about the QX56, but I know the others aren't. (G,M,Q,FX). And the upcoming M is supposed to be sweet. All the goodies like Bluetooth, touchscreen, etc.

As for the RL, the engine is still transversely mounted if I'm not mistaken, so the weight distrubution is still layed out like a front driver. I also believe the RL/TL/TSX are still sharing a common platform. I think the global accord platform comes in 3 flavors. Small, Medium, Large. aka TSX+Euro/JDM Accord, TL + USDM Accord, RL. Infiniti and Lexus don't share platforms at all between brands, with exception of ES300 and departed I35.

rick955i

Simply stated, AHM marketing hasn't done a good job differentiating themselves from Honda, and the dealers don't treat you like you are premium customer. The first step would be to physically seperate the Honda and Acura divisions, like Lexus and Toyota are. Until then, you are going to get the Honda mindset from the Acura people because they sit next to them in the same long beige, low cubicle building!

HondaOnly

When Lexus first debuted, they promoted their flagship sedan as a cheap alternative to Mercedes or BMW. They offered all the same features for a fraction of the price. Lexus' attitude was "We can give you a Mercedes with Toyota reliability for a lot less money than Mercedes. By the way, we also have this baby Lexus ES250". It was easy to compare the LS400 to the Mercedes or BMW cause it was the same size and had the same features.

What did Acura have? They had a smaller sedan, the Legend which had no V8. Acura's biggest mistake was not offering an equivalent of a 7-series or S-class. No matter how good their V6s are, people expect a flagship to be big and have a V8. People who can afford those ultra luxury cars don't care about the Honda philosophy. They're not impressed that your flagship isn't a gas guzzler. In that segment, it's all about image and Acura just didn't want to step up.

They also didn't act like a luxury player. Their dealerships are the same as any Honda dealership. Now that just reinforces the perception that Acuras are just fancy Hondas. It doesn't help that in some cities, the Acura and Honda dealerships are right next to each other. Can't they put some distance between them? I've never seen a Toyota dealer next to a Lexus dealer.

What Acura should do, and I think they're doing, is take on Audi. Offer AWD on all Acura cars and Audi will be in trouble. But they also need a real flagship. The RL is the equivalent of a GS or E-class. Most people can't buy an LS430 or 7-series but the flagship is a symbol of what your brand is capable of. People look at Acura and see the RL and think, "Is that the best Acura can do?" Acura needs an equivalent of an LS430 to prove they can match Lexus and the other players.

6mtV6

All Maximas were built in Japan until the 6th gen came out. I had a 5th gen Maxima. Not a single rattle. The body panels were put together perfectly. Never had a problem except for the warped rotors, but there was a TSB out and Nissan fixed it for free.

MR1

Respect is in the eye of the beholder as stated a few other times. When Acura first came out it was first luxury car from Japan to target European cars. Lexus and Infinity followed a few years later. Acura tested the waters and created the market segment. Then they spent a few years trying to figure out what to do next. Lexus and Infinity came out at about the same time and did Acura one better. Lexus sold, Infinity didn't. Toyota and Datsun (Nissan) are/were much larger companies than Honda. Honda has only been making cars since about mid 1970's. To date, Honda refuses to market a V8 engine and RWD on a wide scale basis. As 1sicklexus stated, these things mean respect to a large portion of the population, look at Escalades and H2's, no accounting for taste.

While I would like for Acura to treat their customers better as far as service, I'm generally happy with the market perception. I like the price point and didn't want to spend more money for my TL. If I could have gotten this content for $10,000 less, I'd be even happier. IMHO generally Toyota/Lexus thinks a lot more of their products than I do. They have worked to build a high quality product for the most part have been successful. Nissan has a really spotty product and quality history. Honda's initial marketing campaign was "We Make It Simple". To a large extent, they still do. They are a smaller more conservative company and the products reflect this. Honda remains independent but small. Toyota is huge and independent. Nissan is mostly owned by somebody (Fiat?).

This is not a knock on anyone but if you obtain your respect from what you drive, Acura is mostly not for you. Go buy youself a MB/BMW/AUDI/Lexus or something larger and more expensive. To respect myself and my money, Acura did it for me this time. How the hell does MB/BMW sell a luxury brand and convince people to pay extra for paint? Whatever floats your boat.

Re build quality; at first models were introduced in Japan only. They had their problems all sorted out before they were sent here a few years later. That's mostly not the case any longer. The 04 TL is a case in point. The 05's (sorry) don't seem to have nearly the problems so-far. OK, of soap box for now.

Mike

Roleez

My sister is an RN too and she drives an 04 TSX. And not a slushbox automatic mind you, a 6-speed! I've seen SO many RNs driving "Lexi" (and Benzes) for the showoff factor, yet they still can barely afford their mortgage, have poor health, and can barely afford to raise their children properly. I wonder why?

On the other hand, I personally believe Acura is finally getting it right in designing their cars to be more luxury-like rather than Honda-like. They're almost there, but it'll take time. The interior of the current TL is a big jump from the interior of the old Legend. I agree that the notion of luxury gets a bit hindered due to the fact that the RSX is part of the Acura lineup and does need to be rebadged a Honda. Plus the J32 (or is it the J30?) also resides in the engine bays of the V6 Saturn VUE. But hey, there's that C230K coupe-looks-like-hatchback, and there used to be a 318ti. Yet BMW and Benz STILL have luxury and bling on people's minds despite these $20K-something cars. (And some Benz engines rest nice and comfy in certain Chrysler models, too).

Bottom line: just be proud of what you own because you worked hard for it. I might have the letters "DR" before my first name, but I refuse to join the ranks of others that drive the S500, XJ-R, 545i, Cayenne, etc. The way I look at it, why waste $10K-20K on a more expensive car with the same features when you can use that extra money to invest in real estate? That's where the REAL bling is! I've been a loyal Honda/Acura fan since I was 16, and I can't picture myself driving anything else I could be more proud of. And I'll still continue to alternate between my 03 CL-S6 and 92 Accord EX 5MT on my way to work.

subinf

I dont like toyota luxury cars, oh wait, Lexus, sorry. At least Nissan has the piece of mind to offer different chassis for the Infiniti. Every single lexus engine part is a toyota part. I will take my infiniti (or acura for this thread) and stomp on those lexus' out there.

orrorin

Nissan is mostly owned by Peugot the french car company. Couple of interesting news items about Nissan.

1. they are planning to use a hybrid engine from toyota to put in their hybrid altima
2. nissan will be forced to shutdown their plants in japan for 6 days, apparently they run their (steel) inventories so tight that any supply disruptions can knock them out, as is happenning now. [btw, on the positive side nissan apparently has the best profit margins.]

loungn14

I find this extremely interesting....as I have had 2 lexus's before the tl..

First....paint

Lexus is know for paint problems! They have extremely soft paint! Drive any IS300 or GS300 on the hightway and check for chips...they will be there! I was on the IS300 forums and every member there was having the same problem....and lexus would not do anything about it.

2nd...build quality...

Is Extremely good...both cars never went in for drooping headliners or anything like that.

but...
When I sit in my TL every day...I can't figure out why I ever like the IS300..
It may be a lexus...but it has no features what so ever. And if you don't spend 40+ on the GS you are in the same boat. You have a nice shell of a car, but no guts.

willz822

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the IS300 a Toyota Altezza in Japan. Toyota just chose to slap on a Lexus badge and sell it here in the US at a premium. Higher price, same car.

HondaOnly

They do it because there are so many people out there obsessed with image. I see so many suburban housewives driving Mercedes or BMWs and I wonder if these women have a clue what a V8 is or what traction control is for. They buy these cars because they want to show off. They buy them because all their friends have one and they don't want to feel inferior. The bottom line is that these people are insecure if they can't feel good about themselves unless they have a prestigious name brand to flaunt. I personally don't find validation in name brands. My TL could be the Honda TL instead of the Acura TL and I'd like it just as much. Instead of getting a Mercedes, these people need to get a Chrysler and just put a big sign on it that says $80,000. As for how Mercedes/BMW convinces it customers to pay extra for paint. It's because they know how shallow and insecure their customers and the extremes they're willing to go to in order to impress people.

avs007

I thought that was because the Altezza also comes in a 4 cylinder (IS200), which is not sold here. I think that's why it's more expensive here, because we don't have an IS200, only an IS300.

As for BMW and Mercedes selling cheap cars too.... It wasn't always like that. BMW and Mercedes only import their higher end cars. They established their image... Then they brought one cheaper model each. Acura pretty much always had the RSX/Integra before it entrenched it's image.

It's funny, that I think BMW and Mercedes are only status symbols here in the states (and maybe asia). When I was in Germany last month, I saw the BMW 1 series, the Mercedes A class, BMW/Mercedes Taxis, etc. When I was in Asia a few weeks ago, I say BMW 718i, 316i, etc. Mercedes C160, E180, etc. Not quite the same as the US.

As for extra charge paint. I don't know about other companies, but I know Cadillac for example, only charges extra for colors that have special paint process. Like the ones that have multiple different color base coats and such. I don't think it's far fetched for Cadillac to charge for premium paint. I thought it odd that a "premium" company like Acura charge for Air Conditioning in the old Integra.

ericajackhannahjamie?

I respect Lexus, today, I still think most Lexus vehicles are better than Acura. Up until the 2nd generation of Acura TL.. I was never an Acura Fan. Always HONDA though (Accords, and Civics)... I think Lexus puts more time into making a BETTER car than Acura. But I bought an Acura (TL) why? Because it's affordable, most prices for a Lexus is rediculous. I rather spend extra few grand and get a BENZ... so there you go, why do more people choose Lexus than Acura? (they rather spend extra few grands and buy a Lexus instead of an Acura)

mporter410

Personnally I could give a hoot about what the dealership looks like on the inside, or the free soda and snacks.

Before I bought my TL I researched every European and Japanese sports sedan on the market, and the TL beats them all hands down in performance and features. THAT is why I own a TL. If someone driving a Lexsucks or a Bring Mucho Wages (BMW) sees me driving my Acura and thinks their car is better, than they can contemplate their superiority while I blow their doors off! I love running down those arrogant bastards.

loungn14

pretty much the same....we used to get group buys together from japan for parts and accessories for the is300.

Funny part about it is if you dig into parts on the "lexus" all of them say toyota on them and are referenced by toyota part numbers

Legend2TL

Nissan is owned by Renault.

The CEO of Nissan is a Lebannese named Carlos Ghosn who will soon be taking over as CEO of Renault.

Legend2TL

If you are interested in a very good book on the current state of US and foreign auto manufacturers check out "End of Detroit".

It had individual chapters on Honda and Toyota, and gave a comprehensive history of each company and their business and engineering philosophy

Website info

http://www.michelinemaynard.com/

sufall96

I don't know if you all pay attention but I believe the Landcruiser and the LX 470 share a platform. Not only that, they may not share a platform but the new solara drop top strongly resembles the $61,000 SC 430. The Avalon resembles the last generation LS 400. Now I must admit the GS and IS don't have a car to compare with Toyota but I thought I ought to bring that point up. Let's be fair here.

Legend2TL

The Lexus/Toyota ES300, Camary, Highlander, and RX330 all share a common platform. It's strange but it's also true for the Honda Pilot, Acura MDX, and Odyssey minivan. The hybrid SUV's from Toyota and Honda have alot of parts in common with other products.

midas69

Wow, I can't believe I just got done reading this whole thread. But I want to get back to the original question.

My answer is, I don't know. But frankly, I'm glad it doesn't. Why do you want to pay for a name? Is prestige really that important to you?

Try and find a Lexus or BMW or MB that has the same performance and features as a TL and you'll be looking at paying at least $5K more. Why would I want to do that? I want the most value for my money. Prestige doesn't do anything for me.

I mean, if you want a car that will impress the neighbors, sure, grab something else. But if you want a car that makes you smile everytime you get in, then get a TL.

sufall96

I AGREE 100%. Acura need to put out cars that make people say damn!!!!!!!! Like the E55 Benz, M5 BMW, S600 Benz, BMW 760 ect.
I love Acura's but when I think of if I ever had tons of money, the cars that I would buy Acura's never seem to fall in that list. Some of them would be the cars I stated above. I would love to stay in the family but Acura just doesen't have anything to compete with them.

TLVR

Two words: Marketing and snobbism!!!!!!!!!!

UglyPsycho

once again this is uglypsycho's girlfriend. i work at lexus in the service department and my boyfriend owns a TL. most of the customers that are coming in for their service dont even know what kind of car they drive. i had one guy on the phone earlier asking me how to open his hood. now i find that acura drivers are more into their cars and they're way more knowledgable. majority of lexus owners are retired citizens. their whole reason of driving is to get from point A to point B. i find that acura drivers just like to drive. i personally think that the acura is by far better than the lexus by a long mile.

DarkBlue

That it does come down to marketing. I can't recall any past campaign (3+ years ago) for an ACURA. However, where I live in metro St. Louis it was word of mouth that carried interest in the brand. When I first saw a Legend, I was suprised that it was made by Honda. What finally sold me on Acura was the value (price / features) compared to Lexus, Infinity and BMW (never really wanted a MB).
I could not have all the standard stuff on my TL on another brand w/o giving up my arm, leg, and first born. Especially knowing that Lexus is rebadged Toyota, and Infinity is dressed-up Nissan. As far as "Dayum" factor, every one who has seen my car, loves it. The best part is the fact that I get to save $10 - 15k for something other than a car payment (icing on the cake! ).

NFLblitze1

one big reason is they don't really have a great ad campaign but the theyve done a good job with the new RL and also i like lexus's service better..

Neorick

Whew!!! That was a long thread to read.

Let me get this straight, the question is why Acura does not get the same respect as Infinity and Lexus?

It is not a matter of respect, remember "Logic is emotion does".

IMHO -

Acura - is very well respected in the "Luxury Arena". The niche for Acura is luxurious and practical. European competitor Audi.

Lexus - is respected as the Asian BWM. The niche for Lexus is compete with European Design with Japanese technology. If you notice how Lexus is famous for having close resemblance with MBZ design.

Infinity - is respected for bold design and performance. They did get respect in the early 90's as Japanese luxury & performance but quality started deteriorating (Q45's).

Again the comments here are IMHO.

chas083

I think that Lexus is more like Mercedes and Infinity like BMW with Acura in the middle.

matelot

like Acura <= Audi ??

Yoda117

Hey, all I'm going to say on the topic is this... I work in a place where we have a lot of Infinitis, BMWs, MBs, and Lexus vehicles. Yeah, they all have their own little fanclubs and the like, and each has its advantages and disadvantages.

That said, I also work with a bunch of engineers... so they analyze everything to death.

This week I drove my brand new TL and while we have a few TLs roaming around, they are definately not the most plentiful car on the lot (thank goodness), and the comments and stares from people tell me that it may not be a Lexus, but it deserves it's own respect.

Or as one employee said when he saw me getting out of the car, "Elegant and sporty... can't ask for a better combo than that."

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

As long as Honda's continues with its philisophy of building the best car at the best price using the best practices it will never attract customers that have more money than sense. Lexus, BMW and Mercedes have huge mark ups on their products and cater to a different market segment than the customer Honda is trying to attract.

PandaBear

Like others said, why buy the badge, there are better use of your $ than buying a badge for $10k extra.

If Honda offer TL or TSX or Integra instead of Acura for a cheaper price I will buy it in a heartbeat. I don't understand why people buy ES300 when it is just a prettier camry, and A4/A6 base model over Passat up scale model for $$$ difference.

My point is, you can never understand these badge wh0res using value. To them price and scarity is everything, value comfort and performance is nothing. (think Jaguar buyer that need to live with the quality problems, MB C class buyer that doesn't even get leather, Lexus ES buyer that is getting a camry, and TSX buyer that is just getting an Accord).

People doesn't view acura as luxury as much because:

1. Many integras were riced out, by teenagers
2. Most Acuras are FWD
3. Most Acuras have smaller engines (can I here 2.0L and 2.4L)
4. Acuras have lower cost of entry

I own an integra and is thinking about getting a TL because it is good looking and good value, (plus I hate the way current generation Accord's rear end). If it was a MB or BMW or Lexus with 40k entry cost I won't consider it.

You have to decide for you own whether you want the "Luxury" of the car or the "badge" of the car. BTW, Lexus dealers do have hotter girls with bigger boobs and more skins. But when you were to pay $120 for an oil change? No thanks, I rather to use those savings to do those girls in the Lexus dealers every other oil change instead.

(J/K about doing the Lexus girls part)

sufall96

I totally disagree. A friend of mine has a IS300 and he is on his second engine. I have a sister in law that just purchased a 2005 ES 330 AT $33,000. Which is the same price I paid for my 04TL and is about the same price of an 05 IS300 if the IS isn't 1 or 2 thousand cheaper. Let's be real the main reason Acura doesen't get the same respect is because of a status symbol. Acura needs a status symbol like the LS 430. If Lexus stopped at the GS 430 and was it. They would not get the same respect in my opinion. They would just be another good car company that would get lost in the wind by BMW and Mercedes, that has a $50,000 flagship (like Acura) rather than a $70,000 flagship like the LS 430. I might add they also have a $63,000 SUV(LX470).

PS It's all about price. The more it cost, the more respect it will recieve. to more expensive cars.

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

i somewhat agree tho Lexus is a great brand cuz its cars r less (yes) compared to other brands lik mercedes-benz, jag, and infiniti.... id take the ls430.... rather than s series.....

Tommy

I looked at the forum on Lexus ES 330 before deciding on a 05-TL. There are a lot of loud complaints about ES' hesitation problem when putting on the gas. Some kind of design problem, claim the owners.

avs007

If that was the case, VW should be getting more respect than Acura, because of the Phaeton.

I think that pretty much sums it up. FWIW, I think even if Lexus did stop at the GS430, they would still be recognized on a higher pedestal, simply because they would still have a RWD V8 car. Something that Acura, still doesn't have.

sufall96

I don't know about where you live but in New Orleans the Acura dealership is just as nice as lexus, benz, bmw ect. It is only about 2 1/2 years old. It feels like luxury.

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

If only Honda could get a few more rappers, thugs, drug dealers and over paid athletes to purchase and promote thieir poducts maybe they' would be as popular as Lexus.

sufall96

When I said the more exspensive the better I was being sarcastic. Even though I do think that has something to do with respect to the general population. As far as the V8 issue goes I agree with you, but as far as the RWD issue goes I thought they took care of that with the AWD. Audi has been doing it for years.

The reason you can't put VW in that league is because I think Acura has established itself as a luxury auto maker. Unless it's just me or Acura is supposed to be Honda's luxury line of cars. Just as toyata/lexus, nissan/infiniti ect. From what you are saying that's like building a $90,000 car with a W12 or V12 in it and slapping a Nissan sign on it. It just wouldn't work. VW was stupid for that because besides that car I don't think they make a car that's over $30,000 if that.

It is a gradual process. For Acura first the V8, then the big AWD luxury sedan, a few in between vehichels like the Infiniti M45 or the CLS 500 then you can get into making V12's and things of that sort. Then redesign the NSX with some serious power and I guarantee major respect and prestige from everybody. But first things are first. Acura rock on!!!!!!!!!!