jime

At 27,400 miles I got the “B2 Maintenance Required” warning and decided to replace my standard filter with a “permanent” K&N filter. When I replaced the filter I found a small plastic Kragen bag under the filter that had obviously been sucked in and was blocking about 4/5 of the filter. By the looks of the dirt patters on the filter and the multiple baffle patterns on the bag, it appears the bag kept falling down and then being re-sucked in. I think the bag was sucked in fairly early in the life of the car as some of the filter is very clean. I suspect it happened during the break-in period when I was still taking it easy and that is why I didn’t now the difference on hard acceleration.

So for few days I have been “experimenting” with my new (much more powerful) TL:

When operating below 3000 RPM I don’t feel any difference and gas mileage did not improve at all.

When operating 3000-4500 RPM (medium acceleration), I notice a slight difference as the engine seems to be laboring a little less.

When operating at over 4500 RPM – BIG DIFFERENCE!! Still getting used to the power increase. The car accelerates through 2nd so fast that it hits the RPM cutoff before I am ready to shift – every time (3 times so far).

Damage to the engine – I think the computer probably kept the mixture correct and that there was no damage. It’s just like I have had a governor on the accelerator for 2 years.

HOW – beats me. I don’t think I have been to Kragen more than once or twice in this car and only have opened the hood to check the oil – never at Kragen. The bag must have blown up under the car on a windy day.

Pictures:
Air filter and bag: http://home.comcast.net/~jherick/TL/bagboth.jpg
Just filter: http://home.comcast.net/~jherick/TL/bagfilter.jpg

Brettg

Its a good idea to check the filter every oil change.
K+N filters are no good.
Besides the oil coming off and ruining he maf sensor, they dont filter well
and dont boost power noticably.

I heard that before, and got lots of dirt in the motorcycle engine when I tried
them, but just read about the bob the oil guy tests....

Brett

scrb09

I dont think there is any permanent damage done even during break-in period. All the bag must have done is hinder the air flow and robbed you out of power and gas mileage.

Also the intake pipe for the air filter box is in front of the car (behind the plastic grille in the bottom left in your bumper) I am still wondering how the bag passed through there all the way up to your air filter box.

XtraKrispy

That's crazy! How would that bag get stuck in there?

I think the real test would be to put the old filter back in and see if there was any change in performance. I would think that a brand new K&N filter would be better than the stock.

SouthernBoy

TL's don't have a MAF.. at least the late model year '04's don't.

SouthernBoy

The entry point for air flow into the TL engine is not behind the bumper. It is in front of the battery, just behind the top of the grill and partially hidden/protected by a plastic "cover". The is how it is with late model year '04's.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Correct, Honda hasn't used MAF in probably about a decade now. They use MAP, Manifold Absolute Pressure. MAP is not easily susceptible to damages like MAF sensors are.

Legend2TL

minor correction, Honda/Acura engines have always used MAP's, they have never used MAF's for their engines with fuel injection.

And yes the MAP is not easily damaged by the oil from a K&N filter like a hot-wire/film MAF.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, I was under the impression that early 90's Hondas used MAF. But you're probably right. Thanks for the correction.

ttliang

i was just look at it last night. the entrance of the pipe is covered fairly well by the plastic cover. how'd the plastic bag that big get in there? you'll see what i mean when you pop the hood. the cover in front of the battery can be ezly removed by unplugging both black clips attach to the front end. no room for the plastic bag to even travel up through the tight space from underneath. weird. u sure it's not a prank?

scrb09

I am pretty sure the "late model 04's" DONT have anything different then the other 04's. Here are the diagrams.

The entry point is behind the bumper, which goes up along with the the front of the battery opening before heading out to the air filter box.

mio

is it ok only changing the intake without changing the exhaust?

JDM5lugHatch

Hmm..... Guess I got lucky then huh. I ran a K&N filter (Neuspeed P-Flow) on my '98 VW Golf GTi VR6 for 2 years with no problems. I also ran K&N filters on my WRX which uses a MAF sensor as well for about a year and numerous other cars like toyota's etc. all of which never had any problems with the MAF sensors.

JDM5lugHatch

Of course.

SouthernBoy

Go look at your TL closely as well as your drawing. While a lot of air enters through the lower portion of the grill, the actual entry point for the intake system( pickup tube, etc.) is where I said it was. If you closely examine your engine bay, you'll see what I have described. If you wish to prove it, remove the cover over the opening to the intake (by the battery), start your engine, then place something over the opening to seal it from incoming air.

SouthernBoy

Good question. Makes you wonder if someone was having lunch while your TL moved down the assembly line.

SouthernBoy

I just went out to my garage where there are two 3G TL's: a 2004 with manual transmission built in July of 2004 (mine); and a 2005 with automatic transmission made in March of 2005 (my wife's and mine). I removed the plastic cover held by the two push pins and just in front of the battery. This exposed a "down" tube which is the intake system's air intake entry point. There is no other passage way or conduit or anything of the sort rising from behind any part of the grill to act as the entry point. Both cars are the same.

ChuckDu

If the title of this thread was meant as a question, here's a bit of food for thought...

In THIS LITTLE READ THREAD , Michael Wan purported that the flashpoint and viscosity of my latest used oil analysis were negatively affected due to a dirty air filter; ie., reduced airflow. If a dirty air filter on an '05 TL with 20,000 miles on it can cause my engine to run rich, perhaps the bag clogging your intake caused the same effect in your car.

Maybe Michael or someone else can weigh in on the affects on an engine of a partially blocked intake.

Jesstzn

I have run K&N in numerous cars and never have had "Don't Filter well issues nor the oil coming off" .. Some VWs had MAF problems after the owner did a poor job of recharging the K&N. This doesn't mean they all did .

I have also done swipe tests on my air boxes with dessicated filter media and found no measurable traces of residue after the K&N.

Ron A

Here's the pictures of the air cleaner and the air intake system through the resonator. There doesn't seem to be any place for anything to get all the way up to where the air filter is.

Maybe you're missing a part somewhere in that mess of stuff, or someone might have left the rag in there when they assembled it or checked it.

AIR CLEANER


RESONATOR CHAMBER

Brettg

I looked at my car tonite, and noticed that there seems to be an air scoop
that feeds to the battery compartment.
In front of the battery is a little cover held on by two push pins, if you remove it,
its just an open duct to the lower front grill.
Air cooling for the battery I guess.

I looked at my air filter, there were some leaves in the box, so stuff
can get in.

I did not know that there were cars out there not using a maf sensor, is honda
the only one?
The Jaguars have them, the Lincoln LS had one, the Passat had one, the taurus
had one.
I like the map sensors much better, much less fragile, but I did
not know you could get the fine control with one.

I need to order a service manual for the TL, I can see they do things a little different...

Brett

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Fine tuning is what Honda does best.

SouthernBoy

I used to own a 1988 Mustang LX 302CID. It used what was called a "speed density" system for mapping fuel and ignition timing as well as other parameters. In 1989, Ford went with the Mass Air Flow system (MAF). GM did just the opposite at the time, going to speed density on their Camaros and Firebirds.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

But they switched to MAF for '93 on the LT1, no? Or was that for '98 with the LS1?

Brettg

Well, I would guess there are not a lot of brands using the map sensor, maybe
its just to simple and reliable?

I have to look at the air intake with a light and room sometime, looking at the diagram, it seems like air goes into the battery box from the scoop, and the air
filter intake picks it up somehow.
Maybe this is to prevent water from getting into the engine...

Brett

mbwmn

hhhmmmm,
i thought Honda/Acura were only required to use "restricter bags" on the larger tracks, like Daytona _+ Talledega....

scrb09

Exactly my point. The bag cannot get to the "actual" entry point that you are mentioning about unless it comes from the grill which is in the bumper...unless it slides under the hood or bounces up from under the engine...

ttliang

oh this thing with stock intake can at least run thru 2' of water no problem.

be stupid to actually do it tho. ha.

scrb09

Nascar Fan from NJ, interesting

SouthernBoy

Yeah, I don't know know when, though. The '88 Mustang 302 with speed density was better than what was then being used with MAF systems.. at least up to 282 HP in the small block Ford engine (according to a mazazine I have where they modded an LX 302). Ford used the fantastic EEC-IV ECU in that Mustang. In 1989 when they went to using MAFs, they also converted to the EEC-V.

SouthernBoy

As a side note, I find it interesting that Acura touts the TL intake as a "cold air intake" when in fact, it's not. Cold air intakes, by definition, draw their air from outside the engine bay. The TL draws its air from inside the engine compartment, albeit from a part of the bay likely to have cooler air than some other sections. But it is most definitely not a CAI. However, I will admit it works quite well as designed.

BTW, your Panthers are having a great start this season. I'm a Skin's fan, but I do like the Panthers as well.