acuraddict

My car was in the dealer's hands for two days, undergoing tests. Acura made my dealer jump through several hoops, and perform several tests before arriving at what was a pre-determined party line. Acura has made their position clear. They say in their service bulletin to the dealers that the vibration at 50-55 mph is a "normal characteristic" of this car. Something to do with the torque limiter going into a lock up mode for fuel economy on the 5 Speed A/T. This "normal characteristic" line is basically what Nissan told its customers when they complained about the EL42 tire problems on their cars.

I believe there may be two totally separate issues here; vibration at certain speeds caused by the torque limiter, and flat spotting and horrible performance by what turns out to be the lowest rated tire I could find on tirerack; the EL42. Acura stuck us all with an incredibly poor tire. If they would just offer the option of the Potenza RE 030 that is on the six speed, I'm sure many of us would have taken that from day one.

I have been a loyal customer to Acura for many years. Seven Acuras in ten years means that I can demand the tires be replaced, and that is what is going to happen in my case. I have been dedicated to their product for a long time, and I have insisted that they honor my commitment to their product by rectifying this situation with different tires.

I'm afraid you guys are all on your own with your dealers and your district managers. Acura is not about to offer to replace thousands of EL42s around the country. Supposedly, I'm the only person in all five Los Angeles dealerships to complain about these problems up until now.

Here are a few thoughts and some points to consider when trying to decide what to do next:

1. Perhaps Acura is going to offer a chip upgrade to stop this torque thing from happening. Time will tell. But for now, they say the vibration is normal.

2. The EL42 is an EXTREMELY poor performing tire. The fact that it is also the stock tire on a $19,000 Altima is ridiculous. I bought a $35,000 car that comes with the same tires?

3. Acura probably cut a corner on cost by cutting a deal with Bridgestone on these pathetic "touring" tires, rather than use Michelins again.

4. Practically everyone on this site that replaced the EL42s says the vibration went away. What does that say about the torque vibration being normal line?

5. Most dramatically, on a scale of 1 to 10, the EL42 has an average comprehensive customer rating on Tirerack.com of 2.7, compared to a dozen comparably priced tires from Yokohama, Goodyear, Bridgestone (Potenza 750 & 950), Michelin, Dunlop, and more, that averaged around 8.5. The comments written in the reviews of the EL42 are shockingly bad in many cases, and many of them are from Altima and 04TL owners.

6. How could Acura make such a horrible decision as to use this tire? Didn't they know how poorly the tire has performed? Didn't they test the tire in different driving conditions?

7. Hydroplaning with the EL42 is one of the most common complaints on tirerack, and is a really big sticking point for me. I experienced it first hand last weekend while driving on the freeway in the rain. It was unbelievably bad. Why on earth should I have to be subjected to such blatantly sub-par performance when its raining? My ELs will be gone soon.

JZ39

My freind who works at the dealer said that the vibration was due to the tall gearing in 5th gear that is, in essence, "bogging" the engine in the name of fuel economy. And, he said, that for this issue there is nothing you can do since it is inherent in the gearing of the car. Putting on more low profile tires to change the gearing may help a bit, but no guarantee.

Sounds pretty bad.

JZ39

Also, he said that the dealer was starting to replace the Bridgestones with Michelins--although I'm not sure if this is on the new cars on the lot or for customers cars.

acur8ly

iTrader: (1)

man that sux, I am really glad I got my tires replaced before this bulletin. Hope you get some good tires acuraddict.

danno

As far as a "cheap" tire goes, they aren`t. I`ve got 1200 miles on my 6MT. Ran over a 4" nail. Practically every tire store here in CT i called, no one had that tire as of yet. One dealer had them in stock, for 276.00! Finally called Firestone store and had 1 tire in their warehouse 3 hrs away. Had it installed, for 227.00. Not Cheap!

RJC RSX

EL42 on tirerack != EL42 on 04TL

Animate

Here's more proof that it can't be a "normal characteristic". Not everyone has the vibration problem! I don't. And I've seen lots of other posts saying the same thing. How does Acura explain THAT?

svtmike

Perhaps if you complain they'll install the vibration feature that they forgot to install.

Mike

youngmic

Agreed Animate. I just went out specifically to see if I could detect anything. I drove between 50 and 55 for about 10 minutes, both in 4th and 5th gear (using SS). I didn't detect anything at all. I'm somewhat of a perfectionist - OK, I'm a full fledged perfectionist - so either this is very very subtle, or it does not occur on every car.

Doesn't sound like a "normal characteristic" to me either!

acuraddict

I forgot to mention that in the tests done at the dealer, the vibration only happens in Automatic, not in sport shift.

Animate

I could barely afford the NAV. No way I could pay for that extra "vibration" option.

youngmic

Tried automatic for a while as well - still nothing. I'd really like to know what this is and what it feels like so I can be on the look out for it but I haven't been able to detect it.

rkilian

After changing my tires to the Potenza 750's I have not had any vibration issues since. Yes the engine feels bogged down in 5th (auto) when you're going 55 but it's simple, switch it to SS and drive around in 3rd.
I don't think they can rechip the car or change the software since this affect the Federal Emmisions for fuel efficiency and possibly their ULEV rating.
On the positive side, here in Ca. cruising speed is normally 70-80 or 10-15 I've only traveled at 55 in passing to 80 or slowing to 10.

DaveB99

Thought I'd give you a guys my review of the Turanza LS'Z's I installed Thursday to replace my EL42's. I have 5AT.

Good new: Quiet, smooth ride. Real improvement over EL42's. The car feels more solid and smooth. It feels like a grand touring tire which it is. Takes corners great. Haven't checked it out in rain or snow yet. Riding this tire you can tell the EL42's are a cheap version of this highly rated tire.

Bad news: It flat spots just like the EL42's. I have my usual 8 minute vibrate till the tires get hot.

I have a 30 day trial on these tires. My feeling now is I'm going to keep them because they are so good when they are hot.

I have never had the vibrate problem that is not related to morning flat spots.

SSH

Ditto. I've got the EL42s (inflated to about 35 psi front and 32 psi rear) and I've not had any vibration problems on my automatic.

Could the Bridgestone's simply be inconsistent from tire to tire? If it happens in F1 I'm sure it happens on consumer tires.

Maybe cars experiencing the problem have "bad" EL42s that are basically unbalanceable and thus cannot be fixed unless you replace the tires.

Has anyone received a new set of EL42s as a fix for the vibration issue?

JZ39

No re-chipping on this one--if it is the gearing, there is nothing electronic you can do about that.

Donte99TL

Well, I have the 5AT and have not felt the vibration problem at 55. I tried to get it to happen but I could not reproduce it. Doesn't seem to be "normal characteristic" to me.

scelipt

You should my post today about tire vibrations. I myself have had the same problems so it might be of interest to all of you out there.

Here is the link

http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=67438

ndabunka

Production number 4467 and no vibration problems here. However I DO have the HPT RE030's instead of the turanza's

rets

acuraddict,

Vibration and tires issue should be improved after having the new brand's tires and software/chip upgrade. Yes, I agree what you said. It makes no sense that vibration is normal if new tires make vibration disappeared. Definitely, it's the cost cut consideration from Acura, but add four better tires should not cost more than $200, Acura should know $32,850 makes no different to $32,650, if we merely upgrade this option. Or Acura should have more than one options for us to choose in the beginning. (I'd say Bridgestone has worked so hard to make this deal through.)

Not only is EL42s over water-full roads pretty bad, but they make some disagreeable noise from their treads. I may change it sometimes next year.

svtmike

I spoke with the Customer Relations Manager at my dealership yesterday. I had responded unfavorably to the survey I received about my last service visit, because the 50mph vibration in my car is not resolved.

She assured me that Acura knows it's a problem, that it is a widespread problem, and that Acura is working on a fix but doesn't have it yet.

I hope that her information is accurate.

Mike

P.S. My vibration is present regardless of gear (4th, 5th, neutral) and throttle position (cruising, accelerating, decelerating). It's not the drivetrain 1500-rpm bog vibration.

MDC

I have the vibration issues in my car. It is a auto and it is a 12000 car build. Have had it since day one. After I drive for about 7-10 minutes it is way better but still noticeable. For those of you who dont have it be very happy. If you had the vibration you would know because it is very, very noticable when the car is cold.

need4spd

Acuraddict, the last time I called customer care, they recomended that I talk to my dealer with regards to switching out my tires and that they may be able to do something. When I spoke to the dealership, they said, Acura said what?

Seems like Acura will be pushing this off on the dealers to fix.

Glad you had so much weight with the dealer, that helped you a lot.

Not sure I have as much.

The one MAIN question is DOES replacing the tires REALY help? Some have posted it happens with other tires, so what does this mean?

RJC RSX

people with vibration: are you entirely sure that all 4 tires are inflated to regular specification?

does anyone know how the EPA highway mpg figure is tested? perhaps it's at 50-55mph, and that's why acura has the torque converter lock up for fuel economy at that point--so they could maintain the highway mpg rating from the last-gen TL.

no vibrations here, btw. but i deflated the tires to spec on the first day, if that makes a difference.

acuraddict

need4spd, I'm no mechanic. Having said that, I believe there may be two separate problems with our car; Lousy tires (don't get me started again), and a "normal condition" vibration caused by a torque converter lock up designed into the car to reduced emissions and improve fuel economy (did I say that right?).

I don't buy it. When I put the car in neutral while traveling at 55 mph, the vibration is still there. The tires are ridiculous.

RJC RSX

i don't see how it's the tires if only a minority (it seems) have this problem. also, surely these tires are better than the michelins on the last-gen, at least in traction.

neuronbob

No, not at all. The wet and winter traction was much better with the stock Michies on the old TL. The complaint with those tires was that their dry traction was not ideal.

Once the Xmas season is over, I've budgeted for Michie Pilot A/S....

RJC RSX

i have the same tires (i think?) on my rsx and they're absolutely dreadful in the rain. snow i won't even attempt. easy to squeel on dry pavement too.

need4spd

Part of the problem with all-seasons is that to ballance the tire for each driving condition (hot, cold, ice, snow, wet, dry) there are trade off's and none of the tires give equivalent performance to summer tires, nor snows.

So, all seasons tend to be average performers, with some excelling in some areas vs others.

Unfortunately the EL-42's don't do anything well except maybe dry performance, but even then, with a tread contact patch 1" (in width) less than the Potenza RE030 counterpart for the TL (and other summer tires), that is even limited, that 1" less dim is most likely to try to provide for better snow traction (the smaller means more pounds per square inch, which benifits snow traction as it is able to dig down to the pavement instead of floating on the top).

Even the P-Zero nero has a trade off, from what I can tell, it has minimal siping which helps in snow traction and especially ice, and also lacks the horizontal groves (but does have verticle rain grooves) needed to compact the snow and provide grip in snow. Contact patch also apears to be wider than the EL-42

The Pilot A/S tires seem to have these features, but the contact patch apears to be smaller, like that of the EL-42, giving the tire a less agressive look, and compromising on dry traction.

Unfortunately, you need to ballance what your priorites are, and possibly based on this, a summer tire may be your best option (and for those in colder cliamates, a set of snows for the winter).

EDIT - this does NOT mean that the EL-42 should flat spot, or vibrate the car! Vibration is a fundimental build issue due to lack of symetry, and remember, tires are still built by hand!

svtmike

Something's terribly wrong with the tires/wheels. My dealer found 3 of 4 weren't balanced right, and one wheel out of round. After all that, the vibration still isn't gone, and like acuraddict, my car has the 50-55 shakes even in neutral.

Mike

fsconsult

______________________________________________
"I have read a lot of this guy's posts, and I can't help but wonder if part of his problem in getting what he wants from Acura has to do with his approach and attitude when dealing with them. I'm not saying I'm a saint (on this website I've made some forceful opinionated statements that might rub some of you the wrong way), but as a consumer who has gotten what he wants from companies like Acura on many occasions, I can tell you that the old addage "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" is applicable in most parts of life."
______________________________________________

accuraddict;

You are probably the only poster in this entire forum that I have absolutely no respect for.

You would probably recognize the above quote. Just in case you don't, this is the exact quote (response) that you made to one my post when I was merely discribing my terrible experience with Acura's customer service. This was a personal attack on me without you knowing the facts behind my experience while making a bunch of assumptions.

They had your car for ONLY 2 days!!! The final result was that Acura telling you that the vibration was a "Normal Characteristics" of the TL.

Buddy, imagine service having your car for 18 days! End result...Acura telling me that the vibration that they have been working on for 18 days was a "Normal Characteristic" of my car.

Also, imagine that I do not have the history with this dealer as you have had with yours. This was the first Acura that I've purchased from this particular dealership.

Obviously, you have read a lot of my posts, as you have stated in your reply, so you must have known what I have been going through.

Just for your information, I am a Business Process Improvement (BPI) and ERP Consultant and have worked for 2 of the top 10 Consulting firms in the world. I've provided consulting services to various Fortune 500 companies, and yes, I do know how to be diplomatic when it comes to dealing with people. So your assumption that I've received "bad" service from Acura as result of something I've done was completely unfounded.

So next time you make a personal attack on someone...know all the facts.

Finally, I apologize to everyone for unloading this "dirty" laundry.

chas083

this is my post from another thread that has apparently solved my vibration issue.
I had vibration problems since day 1. I have 4000 miles on the car now.
Definitely worse when cold and tires not warmed up. (I get on the freeway within .5 miles of leaving home and work.) Dealer rebalance did not work. Took to tire shop and they found 2 of the EL-42s out of round. I decided at that point , because of the unceasing problem that I would try the Conti Extreme Contacts. Still no improvement. Road Forced balanced , but still exibited flat spot vibrations. Next EL-42s put back on ( 2 new ones) . Better but still flatspot type vibrations. Next replaced with Michelin Pilot Sport A/Ss. Vibration gone and no flat spots. SMOOTH! The question is why? One possible explanation is is that Pilot Sports don' t use nylon belts that I've been told may have a memory, thus making them more likely to flat spot.

acuraddict

Pretty harsh statement.

You would probably recognize the above quote. Just in case you don't, this is the exact quote (response) that you made to one my post when I was merely discribing my terrible experience with Acura's customer service. This was a personal attack on me without you knowing the facts behind my experience while making a bunch of assumptions. [/B I read several of your posts and got a sense that you're a volatile guy with a short fuse who might have reacted a little strongly to the dealer. From the tone of this reply of yours, its looks like I was right about you.

They had your car for ONLY 2 days!!! The final result was that Acura telling you that the vibration was a "Normal Characteristics" of the TL.Did I say final result? If I did, I was unclear. This isn't over yet.

Buddy, imagine service having your car for 18 days! End result...Acura telling me that the vibration that they have been working on for 18 days was a "Normal Characteristic" of my car.Maybe its just because I'm not a consultant like you, but I don't see your point entirely. It sounds to me like you're making the point that in two days I was able to get what it took you 18 days to get. I'm no "fortune 500 consultant" but it sounds like you might be able to learn something from me on this one. I was able to get the service manager to dedicate the majority of his time during those two days on my car. I'd be glad to "consult" with you on how I managed to do that, but given the fact that you have such disdain for me, forget it.

Also, imagine that I do not have the history with this dealer as you have had with yours. This was the first Acura that I've purchased from this particular dealership. Now here's a little free "consulting" for you: My service manager is fairly new in the position. I have made it a point to get to know him over the last few months and develop a rapport. I treat him with respect and am genuinely interested in his succeeding because I think he's a terrific guy. Last week he went to bat for me. I have been in sales for many years, and I have learned how to cultivate relationships.

Obviously, you have read a lot of my posts, as you have stated in your reply, so you must have known what I have been going through.Yes, and I formed an opinion about what might be happening. For having done that, I got all this hostility from you.

Just for your information, I am a Business Process Improvement (BPI) and ERP Consultant and have worked for 2 of the top 10 Consulting firms in the world. I've provided consulting services to various Fortune 500 companies, and yes, I do know how to be diplomatic when it comes to dealing with people. So your assumption that I've received "bad" service from Acura as result of something I've done was completely unfounded.COLOR=blue]With all your success and accomplishments with various Fortune 500 companies, you seem to have a somewhat "raw" part of your ego that got a little shaken by a total stranger on a website. You know, you are starting to remind me of several different "BPI and ERP Consultants that I have seen come into companies that I have worked for or with. These are guys who looked down their noses at people, had a tangible remoteness and egocentricity that made it clear that with all they learned in graduate school, they still didn't have the people skills to understand the human factor of business. Frankly, I think there are far too many consultants out there, and evidently many of them are now looking for work in today's economy. [/COLOR]

So next time you make a personal attack on someone...know all the facts. [ Are you kidding? You're the one making personal attacks. I can't believe what a nasty post you made. You wrote this thing at 3:30 in the morning. Were you just waiting for the right time to come after me for having suggested that "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"? Get some sleep, get some therapy, and the next time you think someone has made a personal attack, take a deep breath, look at your resume, and remember that you are a Fortune 500 consultant who has worked with yadda yadda yadda. You big baby!

acuraddict

I didn't post this one correctly. One more time.


Just for your information, I am a Business Process Improvement (BPI) and ERP Consultant and have worked for 2 of the top 10 Consulting firms in the world. I've provided consulting services to various Fortune 500 companies, and yes, I do know how to be diplomatic when it comes to dealing with people. So your assumption that I've received "bad" service from Acura as result of something I've done was completely unfounded.
With all your success and accomplishments with various Fortune 500 companies, you seem to have a somewhat "raw" part of your ego that got a little shaken by a total stranger on a website. You are starting to remind me of several "BPI and ERP Consultants that I have seen come into companies that I have worked for or with. These are guys who looked down their noses at people, had a tangible remoteness and egocentricity that made it clear that with all they learned in graduate school, they still didn't have the people skills to understand the human factor of business. Frankly, I think there are far too many consultants out there, and evidently many of them are now looking for work in today's economy.

fsttyms1

im pretty sure hes not talking about the PRICE! but the quality of the tire being CRAP!

KJSmitty

Wow.....

Lets all take a deep breath and say Merry Christmas

Maybe Santa will bring many of us some Michelin PS A/S's...


I will say I know everyones pain here when it comes to vibration, having your car worked on numerous times, then told by the manufacturer that it is "normal". I was just as passionate over my recent 2004 Maxima vibration saga as you all - the only problem with the Max was tires didn't fix it. With the TL (even though mine currently hasn't exhibited any vibrating) changing the tires is the fix. Nissan wouldn't even try diagnosing the problem. Their idea of "all known repairs" was balancing/replacing the tires - even though with the tires off, spinning the drivietrain on the hoist resulted in the same bad vibration..... They even tried to balance the drivetrain by placing weights on the rims like you would balance a ceiling fan - by trial and error. Thus, they knew something was out of balance/out of round in the drivetrain but Nissan would not let them "replace/remove and inspect" components in order to alleviate/pinpoint the source.. A blatant disregard for the customer and a known issue. My dealers owner knew and stated: "Nissan won't help so I will", and purchased the car back from me at minimal loss to "both" of us.

Anyway, in the spirit of Xmas, lets restrain from personal slamming
/flaming and focus the aggression on Acura and constructive info for the rest of the masses.

As always - just my 2 cents..... easy for me to say due to I having near 0 complaints with my new TL.

dcarlinf1

Let's see a show of hands, please.

1. Do you (or did you) have the vibration problem?

2. If yes, have you replaced your tires?

3. If yes again, did the vibration go away?

fsconsult

[QUOTE]Originally posted by acuraddict
[B]Pretty harsh statement.

You would probably recognize the above quote. Just in case you don't, this is the exact quote (response) that you made to one my post when I was merely discribing my terrible experience with Acura's customer service. This was a personal attack on me without you knowing the facts behind my experience while making a bunch of assumptions. [/B I read several of your posts and got a sense that you're a volatile guy with a short fuse who might have reacted a little strongly to the dealer. From the tone of this reply of yours, its looks like I was right about you.

Accuraddict....

hahahahaha. You really are something you know that.

I am not going to respond to evey line or comment that you made on my post...but to say...take some Prozac.

My god...you say I'm volatile? I have a short fuse?

Man...lets summarize your post...you not only attacked me again personally, but generalized and insulted my whole profession from your limited, one sided prospective.

Boy...I found out something new about you though, "you can dish it" but you sure "can't take it"

DaveB99

1. I had/have morning vibration flat spot problem.

2. Replaced with Turanza LS'Z's Tires from the Rack

3. Still have morning vibration flat spot problem.

Which proves it is not only the cheap EL42 problem but the basic design component of nylon in the Turanza series.

The LSZ's are the highest rated tire on the Rack.

So the cure for morning vibration is to buy the Sports.

Modeler

These tires are unbelievable piece of CRAP! I've been only driving my new TL for three days, but I'm ready to replace them ASAP!

My car does NOT exhibit the vibration problem some of you are experiencing: nothing out of the usual around 50-55mph other than kind of a lower growl/minor vibration of the engine, but my 2003 TL-S sounded EXACTLY the same.

What I did experience was the horrendous flat-spotting of the EL42's. I expected the tires to have flat spots after I was gone for a week-long trip. And they did, but the characteristic flat-spotting vibration and whomp-whomp-whomp sound went away after about 10 minutes of driving this morning. BUT, the flat spots have formed again afte the car has been parked at the mall for about 2 hours in 45 degree weather!!! That is unacceptable! No other tire I've ever had would get flat spots from even an overhight cold parking.

I'll be ordering new tires in the next several days, as soon as I do more research. The Continental ContiExtreme (or something like that) seems to be very well liked by tirerack crowd, but the reporting sample size is not very big. Maybe I should just splurge for Michelins....