harddrivin1le

Yep...you are correct. That was my big error. I mis-stated Bernoulli's equation.

harddrivin1le

The link is to BERNOULLI'S EQUATION and NOT THE COMBINED GAS LAW!!!!!

And V in the BERNOULLI EQUATION IS VELOCITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click and see:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pber.html

Skeedatl

:lol1: Now you're saying that p1v1=p2v2 is Bernoulli's equation? What are you, retarded?



Bernoulli's equation IS NOT p1v1=p2v2 dumbass! p1v1=p2v2 is the COMBINED GAS LAW!!!!!!!!!!

This was your ORIGINAL stupid claim

TLover

I may have opted to quit engineering school after 3 years but I know enough to remember that one.

svtmike

Harddrivin's philosophy: "I link, therefore I am."

The links have nothing to do with your statement, other than to illustrate how incorrect it was.

harddrivin1le

Yes...I mistakenly over-simplified THE BERNOULLI EQUATION.

Shoot me.

Either way, RAM AIR works. Air actually IS compressible below MACH 0.5. Many equations "assume" that it's not for the sake of SIMPLICITY.

This is the source of my error:

Skeedatl

Over simplified? What are you doing? The new math? THEY AREN'T THEY SAME EQUATIONS, NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!

What's next, mass/energy equivalence is over simplified to PV=nRT?

Another stupid 1LE post brought to you by CTRL+C and CTRL+P.

harddrivin1le

No they aren't close.

But neither are your claims regarding aluminum heads and ram air.

harddrivin1le

No they aren't close.

But neither are your claims regarding aluminum heads, ram air and your assertion that I claimed V = velocity in the Combined Gas Law.

An understandable mix-up, I think, for someone who last took fluids 18 years ago:

TLover

OK ... :ar15: HARDDRIVIN1LE :rocketwho :bigun2:

Skeedatl

Oh yeah, aluminum heads can't run higher compression, ram air on the WS6 is anything other than domestic rice.

When you build a 300MPH Slomero, you can put ram air on it in get a few HP. But then you said it's only a cam only swap to get a POS Slomero into the 10s, so 300MPH is only another stick of super glue and a paper air filter away.

jjsC5

I have nothing constructive to add to this thread that already adds nothing that hasn't been added in many other threads on this forum.

I hope everyone is clear on this matter.

UminChu

Crystal. (huh?!)

1SICKLEX

I just wasted 3 min of my life reading this.....

harddrivin1le

Sure they can. All other things being equal (port size and shape, fuel octane number, etc), they can run ~ 1/2 point more STATIC compression. The resulting DYNAMIC compression is THE SAME because the aluminum transfers heat out of the combustion chamber more efficiently.

And in that case, the more advanced version of your favorite law IS applicable in that less retained heat results in lower (cylinder) pressure:

PV=nRT

Swat Dude

Dude, you should see how long we went on the Chrysler thread. Where were you? HD proved that although he claims to be an M.E., he has no clue about thermodynamics and failed to answer an elementary question about psychrometrics although he was arguing in his typical fashion like he was the expert on refrigeration.

harddrivin1le

I never claimed to be an "expert" on refrigeration.

But the BASIS of refrigeration concerns the process by which the refrigerant is initially COOLED.

What occurs in the evaporator coils themselves is simple heat transfer, which is not attributable to "the combined gas law" as you claimed.


http://www.hodsonhome.com/mna2001/c...s/adiabatic.htm
Everything has an internal energy, even gases. When pressure is applied to a gas its internal energy increases because we are performing work on the gas. As the gas expands its internal energy decreases because the gas is performing work by expanding.

(1) D internal energy (D U) = heat added or removed (dq) + work done to or by the gas.

Since there is no heat added or removed, the first term (dq) = 0. So (1) becomes

(2) D internal energy (D U) = work done by the gas (dw)(ii)

When gas performs work dw is negative so the internal gas decreases. Intuitively since we know that temperature is an indirect measurement of energy, we can guess that the temperature of the gas will decrease as it expands. This decrease in temperature is the Joules -- Thompson effect.

This is how your refidgerator or AC works. A compressor (left side of cylinder) pumps a gas (freon) through a throttle and into a network of coils (right side of cylinder) where it rapidly expands and cools.

DonVogel

In the evaporator, latent heat is absorbed into the refrigerant as it changes from a liquid to a vapor. In the condenser, the refrigerant changes from a vapor to a liquid as it releases latent heat. In each component sensible heat is also transferred, but the greatest heat transfer is in the latent state.

harddrivin1le

Yep...I can't argue that.

harddrivin1le

PROVE that the WS6 RAM AIR system was any less effective than the system used on that Kawasaki bike.

P.S. Bernoulli tells us that air does NOT have to compress in order to gain pressure!!!! That's because a DROP in Velocity produces an INCREASE in pressure. So your claim that Ram Air doesn't work because air "isn't compressible below Mach 0.5" is just plain ludicrous:

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/airfoils.html

"Combining these, we conclude:

P + ½ ρv2 = Mechanical Energy per volume (3.3)
Next, we make the approximation that we can ignore non-mechanical forms of energy (such as chemical reactions or heat produced by friction), and that we are not adding energy to the air using pumps, pistons, or whatever. Then, using the law that total energy cannot change (see chapter 1), we conclude that a given air parcel's mechanical energy remains constant as it flows past the wing.

Now, if the right-hand side of equation 3.3 is a constant, it tells us that whenever a given parcel of air increases its velocity, it must decrease its pressure, and vice versa. This relationship is called Bernoulli's principle.

Higher velocity means lower pressure, and vice versa
(assuming constant mechanical energy)."

In fact, the claim that air doesn't compress below Mach 0.5 is itself ludicrous!

TLover

Sigh. Can't we learn just to each other

harddrivin1le

Not until we all "agree" that aluminum heads permit "vastly higher" compression ratios, that ram air is "a myth" and that air must compress in order to undergo an increase in pressure (despite the fact that Bernoulli tells us otherwise). :lol2:

We can all agree once we become as enlightened as the person who made those statements.

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bern.html

UminChu

In other words, when everyone else caves in, bows down and pronounces HD right all along, all hail HD. Not likely.

Skeedatl

The math shows that ram air in the WS6 won't build HP. It's simply there to dupe mulletheads like you into buying plastic covered domestice rice.

Go ahead genius...do the math proving that the ram air system on the WS6 builds HP in street applications. Of course since you claim it's only a cam only swap to get a Slomero into the 10's you should have to problem getting a WS6 to do 300MPH.

There is a reason air isn't considered compressable at slow speeds for computation purposes. It's because the amount of compression is nearly ZERO at speeds below Mach .5. Certainly not enough to build HP in a street application. I've already shown you the math why...you simply don't have the engineering and fluids background to understand it.

You obviously don't understand Bernoulli's Principle any more than you understood the Combined Gas Law. Bernoulli's Principle is not the physics behind "ram air".

LOL V is velocity in the Combined Gas Law ROTFLMAO...you are laughable. :lol2: :lol2:

Tell is all again how aluminum heads don't permit higher compression, how it's only a cam swap for a Slomero to get into the 10's, how cotton doesn't outflow paper filters, HID sucks, and how the center of mass on a small wheels is different on a big wheel.

harddrivin1le

I never ONCE stated that V = velocity in the combined gas law.

harddrivin1le

Aluminum heads permit SLIGHTLY higher CRs; not "vastly higher" CRs as you claimed.

This "Cam only" LS1 is EXACTLY how I told NORSE396 it was - cam as the only INTERNAL engine mods and a lightened car with bolt-ons (but normally aspirated). That you misconstrued it to mean something else is YOUR error:

harddrivin1le

1) What happens to STATIC PRESSURE as velocity slows?

Answer: Static Pressure RISES!

2) What happens to the velocity of the air as it makes it's way from the ram air intake and through the intake tract?

Answer: It SLOWS

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bern.html

TLover

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a LOT of years since I took aerodynamics/thermodynamics), but that assumes all the fluid (air) in the system remains in the system. Bernouill's Principle explains why airplanes fly. In a ram-air system, doesn't the increase in pressure at the inlet divert fluid (air) away from the system?

harddrivin1le

Bernoulli also describes "incompressible" flow of fluids through pipes @ sub-sonic conditions.

RAM AIR obviously "works," as was readily demonstrated in this real world test (both on a dyno and on the road/drag strip), It's effect isn't "huge," but it is quantifiable at speeds that are readily approachable in today's performance cars (and bikes).

It was good for a ~ 2% boost in power in this bike @ 100 MPH.

It was good for a ~ 7% boost in power in the same bike @ 150 MPH:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

DonVogel

Great engine that LS1; pulls from idle and extends torque to a high enough RPM to develop some good power; in a robust lightweight fuel efficient package.

:diablotin The god-damned fools should have used it in the Catera in 97 when the LS1 came out, mated to a T56 and the rear suspension from a C4 adapted to a suitable rear subframe. It all would have easily fit with only minor changes to the body. The car might have sold, without dragging down the CAFE numbers. The GTO is 3/4 of a decade late IMO, and won't do much to repair GM's image at this late stage.

harddrivin1le

The GTO would be "decent" - IF it had the LS6 to offset its portly weight.

It also needs a useable trunk.

harddrivin1le

I'd rather have my 1LE/LS1 AND my '04 Accord EX/V6. The combined $$$ value (present day) of those two vehicles = 1 new GTO.

Even the '05 GM 5.3 truck engine gets LS6 heads...The GTO is still using LS1 heads. The LS6 is old news now that the LS2 has arrived. A slightly "detuned" LS6 should therefore be the standard engine in the GTO.

Check the fuel mileage for the GTO auto; it's awful (16/21, I believe). Something's "wrong" there, as well. Generally speaking, the car itself is wrong. Of course, it's still the quickest/fastest GTO ever built (stock vs. stock), so I suppose it could be worse. (The only "stock" one that was quicker/faster is referenced below). It was one of the more "legendary" lies in an era that was full of them:

http://www.contes.com/ccvmore.htm

"At any rate, Royal performed their famous "Royal Bobcat" treatment on the GTO, the very first GTO so equipped. The car was, in Jim Wangers' own words, "well set up." The GTO was then loaned to David E. Davis, Car & Driver Magazine's Editor- in-Chief. Wangers and Davis came up with the idea of testing the Pontiac GTO against a real Ferrari GTO (from which Pontiac had stolen the GTO name). In the resulting road test, which was published in Car & Driver's March 1964 issue, the Pontiac GTO turned the unbelievable times of 4.6 seconds 0 to 60 MPH and 13.1 seconds through the 1/4 mile. Jim Wangers was happy. John Delorean was happy. Pontiac sold tons of GTOs. The "Muscle Car" revolution was born and the rest is history!

UPDATE:

In his book "Glory Days," Jim Wangers finally admits on pages 106 & 107 that the "Car & Driver" GTO was a ringer! Wangers did have a 421 Super-duty installed prior to the roadtest!"

Skeedatl

We've already posted 2 links showing you did.

Skeedatl

Now it's INTERNAL mods. Never you mind about the $10K-$20K in other mods.

harddrivin1le

No, you posted two links where you ASSUMED that's what I said. Those links referenced THE BERNOULLI EQUATION!!!

Skeedatl

Bzzzz, wrong. The experiments were flawed and their conclusions questionable. I've already shown how the tests were MASSIVELY flawed. You just continue to live in your little dream world, where a cam/valve spring swap and $20K in suspension work is only a cam swap, and a 170MPH motorcycle and better yet a WWII era airplane are street applications.

Ram air doesn't add HP in street applications...PERIOD. And that 10s Slomero is running 10's not 'cause of the cam, but 'cause of the thousands and thousands spend on the chassis.

harddrivin1le

I clearly stated in my first post that it was "cam only" as far as INTERNAL MODS and that the engine remained NA.

harddrivin1le

Sure it does...

And the tests weren't flawed.

They were measuring static airbox pressure ON THE STREET/STRIP!

This link references:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pber.html

A) The Combined Gaw Law

B) The Bernoulli Equation

C) The "fact" that aluminum heads permit "vastly higher" compression ratios

P.S.

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bern.html

"The fluids problem shown on this slide is low speed flow through a tube with changing cross-sectional area. For a streamline along the center of the tube, the velocity will slow from station one to two. Bernoulli's equation would describe the relation between velocity, density, and pressure for this flow problem. Along a low speed airfoil, the flow is incompressible and the density remains a constant. Bernoulli's equation then reduces to a simple relation between VELOCITY and STATIC PRESSURE. :cop:

Skeedatl

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: Yeah, and V is velocity in the Combined Gas Law, it's a cam only swap to get a slomero into the 10's, paper outflows cotton filters throughout their life, and WS6 ram air is more than domestic rice. You stupidly claim Bernoulli is responsible for ram air working LOL...the airbox isn't even designed that way. Obviously you don't understand fluids or you would realize that would require a DIVERGENT air box which the WS6 DOES NOT HAVE. YEAH RIGHT. No wonder you were duped into buying that POS plastic Slomero.

Keep dreaming. In the meantime, actually get EDUCATED in fluid mechanics before you molest more formulas.

You lied about aluminum heads not permitting more compression compared to iron. You lied about having taken fluids while claiming V is velocity in the Combined Gas Law (which you even deny after being showed 2 posts of yours to the contrary). You are full of sh!t claiming that Bernoulli's Principle is the physics behind ram air and you lied about the 10s "cam only" swap. And let's not forget you claim to be an engineer while making the retarded statement that the center of mass on a small wheels is different than on a large wheel. You even lied about ram air...first posting obvious street applications like the WS6, then changing your position to that of it working on 170MPH motorcycles and 300MPH airplanes...when obviously your point was that ram air works on STREET applications...which is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE and the math PROVES it.

harddrivin1le

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bern.html

I've always stated that aluminum heads permit SLIGHTLY more STATIC compression. All other things being equal, the net change in dynamic compression is ZERO.

"Center of mass" was a misnomer and you know it. I clearly stated the correct intertia formula and any reasonably person KNOWS what I was saying.

"The fluids problem shown on this slide is low speed flow through a tube with changing cross-sectional area. For a streamline along the center of the tube, the velocity will slow from station one to two. Bernoulli's equation would describe the relation between velocity, density, and pressure for this flow problem. Along a low speed airfoil, the flow is incompressible and the density remains a constant. Bernoulli's equation then reduces to a simple relation between VELOCITY and STATIC PRESSURE."