harddrivin1le

Their measurements translated into real world HP gains.

Here is the sister article which explains that.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

TLover

No one is disputing the gains. We're disputing the cause of the gains.

Skeedatl

Using pitot theory to explain ram air HA HA HA HA HA



1LE doing race prep.

harddrivin1le

You are?

What other variables are there?

Is the temperature dramatically changing during the ~ 15 seconds it took the bikes to accelerate to ~ 150 MPH?

What did the MANOMETER show? Answer: Net gains in STATIC AIRBOX PRESSURE.

Why did it show that?

"P = .5 x r x v2

Pressure (P) is force divided by an area. In the English system of measurement the units of pressure are (lb - force)/in2 which translates to psi. Density (r) is mass divided by volume. The units of density in the English system are (lb - mass)/in3. Velocity (v) is air speed, with units ft/sec. Plotting pressure vs. speed gives a graph that has theoretical pressure rising with the square of speed, and this is why ram air has much more effect at greater speeds."

Skeedatl

1LE changing plugs before a run in accordance with Hot Rod recommendations.

harddrivin1le

"P = .5 x r x v2

Pressure (P) is force divided by an area. In the English system of measurement the units of pressure are (lb - force)/in2 which translates to psi. Density (r) is mass divided by volume. The units of density in the English system are (lb - mass)/in3. Velocity (v) is air speed, with units ft/sec. Plotting pressure vs. speed gives a graph that has theoretical pressure rising with the square of speed, and this is why ram air has much more effect at greater speeds."

Skeedatl

Oh no 1LE! Your Nitrous solenoid stuck!!!!

harddrivin1le

"P = .5 x r x v2

Pressure (P) is force divided by an area. In the English system of measurement the units of pressure are (lb - force)/in2 which translates to psi. Density (r) is mass divided by volume. The units of density in the English system are (lb - mass)/in3. Velocity (v) is air speed, with units ft/sec. Plotting pressure vs. speed gives a graph that has theoretical pressure rising with the square of speed, and this is why ram air has much more effect at greater speeds."

Skeedatl

Still misusing pitot theory... HA HA HA HA

We're still waiting for the applied mathematics from you...going on 8 hours now. HA HA HA HA HA. :thefinger

Skeedatl

HA HA HA.

harddrivin1le

You FLAT OUT IGNORED the Bernoulli Effect when considering the scenario of RAM AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TLover

Hey I'm quoting YOUR article.

harddrivin1le

Good.

Now quote this one:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

so the manometer was cunningly strapped to the gas tank, green food coloring added to the fluid for added visibility, and a portable datalogger-yours truly-mounted to the bars.

Just riding from the dyno facility to the strip was illuminating. We'd reckoned on needing 90 mph before boost would register, but at an indicated 70 mph the manometer already showed 8mb of boost.

At the strip we were able to give the big Kwakker its head, with one eye on the slowly rising column of green fluid and the other on the rapidly rising speedo. At the end of each run we logged boost pressure against indicated speed.

The results were even better than we'd hoped for. At lower speeds (under 120 mph) the gauge was easy to read and the results quite consistent: at 70 mph pressure was 8mb; at 80 mph, 10mb; at 100 mph, 12mb; at 110 mph, 14mb. From this point things really took off: At 120 mph (indicated) the airbox pressure was approximately 19mb, at 130 mph about 23mb, at 140 mph, 26mb and at an indicated 150 mph, the gauge was beginning to pump out green liquid as it bubbled over the 30mb limit.

At a real speed of 167 mph, past experience shows that the ZX-9R's speedo indicates 181 mph; there was obviously even more to come, perhaps as much as 30 mph worth of additional air pressure. Plotting the air pressure figures against speed for a rough representation of the way the air pressure increases suggests that the progression isn't linear.

This is as we'd expected. Air drag doesn't increase at a linear rate but relative to the square of the speed. At above 25 mph, air resistance builds in proportion to the square of the air speed over the motorcycle: twice the speed, four times the resistance. The faster the bike goes, the greater should be the increase in pressure and thus intake pressure. When we plotted the rough course of the pressure increase on a graph and continued it upward, we came up with a projected 44mb (or more) of pressure at an indicated 180 mph, when the bike would actually be traveling at its real top speed of 167 mph.

SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

The maximum pressure we were able to generate on the dyno was approximately 30mb, which gave a peak of 131 bhp from a ZX-9R as compared to the 123 bhp measured at rest. In other words, each 10mb increase in inlet pressure is worth approximately 2.6 bhp at peak on a derestricted 9R.

At an indicated 150 mph on the road, the inlet pressure had already neared the 30mb figure. We can therefore say with confidence that the ZX-9R is producing at least 131 bhp at the rear wheel in real world conditions-8 bhp more than at rest on the dyno.

Flat out, however, the Ninja indicates another 30 mph on the speedo. If boost at this speed was, as seems likely, 40mb, then the gain over atmospheric pressure would be approximately 11.5 bhp, giving a peak figure of 134.5 bhp. If inlet pressure reached 45mb, which it might well do, then the increase would be as much as 12 bhp, or a peak of 135 bhp. In other words, 123 bhp measured normally on a static Dynojet rolling road dynamometer could translate to as much as 135 bhp or more on the street. Ram air works.

Skeedatl

:lol1: :lol1: You're right. I'm not a retard like you. :thefinger

I'm not stupid enough to think that you can get higher pressure from Bernoulli's Principle than still air. LOL.

You don't get higher pressure than still air from BP stupid ass :lol2: :lol2:

You're the only one stupid enough to think so.

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for your applied mathematics.

Tick tock tick tock...

You simply can't do it!!!! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

harddrivin1le

so the manometer was cunningly strapped to the gas tank, green food coloring added to the fluid for added visibility, and a portable datalogger-yours truly-mounted to the bars.

Just riding from the dyno facility to the strip was illuminating. We'd reckoned on needing 90 mph before boost would register, but at an indicated 70 mph the manometer already showed 8mb of boost.

At the stripwe were able to give the big Kwakker its head, with one eye on the slowly rising column of green fluid and the other on the rapidly rising speedo. At the end of each run we logged boost pressure against indicated speed.

The results were even better than we'd hoped for. At lower speeds (under 120 mph) the gauge was easy to read and the results quite consistent: at 70 mph pressure was 8mb; at 80 mph, 10mb; at 100 mph, 12mb; at 110 mph, 14mb. From this point things really took off: At 120 mph (indicated) the airbox pressure was approximately 19mb, at 130 mph about 23mb, at 140 mph, 26mb and at an indicated 150 mph, the gauge was beginning to pump out green liquid as it bubbled over the 30mb limit.

At a real speed of 167 mph, past experience shows that the ZX-9R's speedo indicates 181 mph; there was obviously even more to come, perhaps as much as 30 mph worth of additional air pressure. Plotting the air pressure figures against speed for a rough representation of the way the air pressure increases suggests that the progression isn't linear.

This is as we'd expected. Air drag doesn't increase at a linear rate but relative to the square of the speed. At above 25 mph, air resistance builds in proportion to the square of the air speed over the motorcycle: twice the speed, four times the resistance. The faster the bike goes, the greater should be the increase in pressure and thus intake pressure. When we plotted the rough course of the pressure increase on a graph and continued it upward, we came up with a projected 44mb (or more) of pressure at an indicated 180 mph, when the bike would actually be traveling at its real top speed of 167 mph.

SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

The maximum pressure we were able to generate on the dyno was approximately 30mb, which gave a peak of 131 bhp from a ZX-9R as compared to the 123 bhp measured at rest. In other words, each 10mb increase in inlet pressure is worth approximately 2.6 bhp at peak on a derestricted 9R.

At an indicated 150 mph on the road, the inlet pressure had already neared the 30mb figure. We can therefore say with confidence that the ZX-9R is producing at least 131 bhp at the rear wheel in real world conditions-8 bhp more than at rest on the dyno.

Flat out, however, the Ninja indicates another 30 mph on the speedo. If boost at this speed was, as seems likely, 40mb, then the gain over atmospheric pressure would be approximately 11.5 bhp, giving a peak figure of 134.5 bhp. If inlet pressure reached 45mb, which it might well do, then the increase would be as much as 12 bhp, or a peak of 135 bhp. In other words, 123 bhp measured normally on a static Dynojet rolling road dynamometer could translate to as much as 135 bhp or more on the street. Ram air works.

Skeedatl

HA HA HA, more of the flawed experiment.

How about applying relativity to ram air HA HA HA.

Oh wait...how about a GUT of ram air ROTFLMAO.

Bernoulli's principle and pitot theory applied to ram air LOL!!!!! Whatah dumbass HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!


BTW...we're still waiting for the applied mathematics HA HA HA HA.

Just can't do it can you HA HA HA HA HA...

No E is eggwhites in the mass energy equivalence LMAO!!!!! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

F is farts in Newton's 2nd law LMAO!!!!

harddrivin1le

P1static * V1^2/2 = P2static * V2^2/2

Pretty obvious that P2Static MUST RISE when V2 falls.

In that scenario and assuming that P1 static = atmospheric Pressure, P2 static would then be HIGHER than atmospheric.

Skeedatl

OMFG HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...

Wait...I'm going to barf up my Cheez-it's. You're killing me. HA HA HA.

Now HA HA HA
use that HA HA HA HA
equation HA HA HA
ROTFLMAO and actually do some applied...HA HA HA HA
mathematics with it...HA HA HA

No wait....whew...show us the math of how you get higher than still air pressure from BP. That's the best one.


No wait...tell us all again how V is velocity in the Cah ha ha ha ha COM ha ha ha combined gas law HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

Better yet, how you can't get...oh boy...higher compression from aluminum heads compared to iron BRAHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

harddrivin1le

P1static * V1^2/2 = P2static * V2^2/2

Pretty obvious that P2Static MUST RISE when V2 falls.

In that scenario and assuming that P1 static = atmospheric Pressure, P2 static would then be HIGHER than atmospheric.

Skeedatl

ROTFLMAO...do the applied MATH genius. Of course you keep reposting different formula after different formula...obviously not knowing what they are or how they're applied. Hell you can't even keep the variables straight.

Show us all how that WS6 ram air kit in that WS6 article you posted generates HP. HA HA HA HA HA.

harddrivin1le

This link that you posted to support your claim ACTUALLY supports mine.

http://www.snowgoercanada.com/tech_ram_air.shtml

"...the pressure gain... Because this is a dynamic effect, it is proportional to the square of the air velocity."

Skeedatl

What's next...you gonna tell us Avagadro's number is 6-7/8th's LOL.

harddrivin1le

P1static * V1^2/2 = P2static * V2^2/2

Pretty obvious that P2Static MUST RISE when V2 falls.

In that scenario and assuming that P1 static = atmospheric Pressure, P2 static would then be HIGHER than atmospheric.

P.S.

This link that you posted to support your claim ACTUALLY supports mine.

http://www.snowgoercanada.com/tech_ram_air.shtml

"...the pressure gain... Because this is a dynamic effect, it is proportional to the square of the air velocity."

Skeedatl

And HA HA HA HA HA, you attribute that HA HA HA to Bernoulli HA HA HA HA.

So at 250MPH you get barely 1PSI HA HA HA HA.

Go get a 1 PSI turbo genius...you'll run 10's.

Oh wait...you already did the CAM ONLY HA HA HA HA HA swap HA HA HA HA.

vtechbrain

Besides the math the 300 is a POS. The hemi is marginally faster than the TL and is far inferior in all other performance area plus it is 5k more expensive to boot (32vs37K). The six cylinders are not even worth mentioning. My predictions is that it will keep company to lonely Pacificas in glutted Chrystler lots.

Skeedatl

Oh yeah...isn't L lemons in Hooke's Law? Or is it Lemurs?

harddrivin1le

so what?

A GOOD RA system produces a QUANITIFIABLE increase in power @ speeds that are MUCH lower than 250 MPH....

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

It's not "huge," but I never claimed otherwise.

Skeedatl

DO THE MATH PROVING THIS QUANTIFIABLE INCREASE IN POWER...

WE'VE BEEN WAITING 8 HOURS FOR IT.

PROVE THAT THE WHOPPING .27 PSI GENERATES MEASURABLE QUANTIFIABLE VERIFIABLE HORSEPOWER...

And not from some retarded flawed experiment.

DO THE MATH YOURSELF.

PROVE IT!!!!!!!!

The increases in pressure are so small as to be INSIGIFICANT TO THE SYSTEM where temp changes, diameter changes, flow mechanics, bends...ALL rob those SUPER TINY differences back.

PROVE IT ALREADY!!!!!!

And show us how you get the PSI above STP from Bernoulli's Principle. You give us some sample EVALUATIONS of Bernoulli's Equation showing PSI ABOVE STP.

Skeedatl

EVALUATE THOSE FORMULAS YOU CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND (while not being able to keep the variables straight).

To those of you driving Slomaros the Mathematics definition of Evaluate is to calculate the numerical value of; express numerically.

TLover

OK, here you go. EIGHT MILLIBARS!? What's that, 0.1 PSI? At that's at the airbox. What happens to the air AFTER the airbox?

harddrivin1le

Look @ the dyno results and see:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

Skeedatl

Yeah it's an incredibly massive 0.11603 PSI. Even according to the article at a whopping 160MPH it's a tire burning 0.551143 PSI. LOL.

TLover

You still haven't addressed these two articles that offer alternate explanations. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just asking you to have an open mind.

harddrivin1le

I've addressed the SNOWGOER article SEVERAL times.

It says exactly what I'm saying: Velocity is a 2nd order determinent of static pressure.

The author states that Ram Air's effect is miniscule - AT NORMAL SNOWMOBILE SPEEDS (like riding on a frickin' trail @ 35 MPH). And he is correct - on both counts.

The 'Vette article ignores the BERNOULLI EFFECT and the fact that static pressure rises in proportion to Velocity squared.

And neither of those two articles addresses/contains ACTUAL TESTS. These do:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9910_ram/

Skeedatl

He just keeps posting the same flawed test which doesn't control inlet temperature. Even in the article they contradict themselves. They pull 8 HP from 30mb while another contributor "Steve" gets only 5 HP (which can easily be the margin of error for the dyno) from a full PSI (about 70mb)...which doesn't occur till around 250MPH, far faster than any street car or bike save for the new 1 million dollar Bugatti.

So which is it?

They themselves prove their testing faulty and any HP gains from their joke of an experiment questionable.

Skeedatl

Ha ha ha, now you have Bernoulli's Effect RAISING static pressure as velocity INCREASES.

Holy crap HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

And in the 99 article they use the Pitot Theory to explain ram air HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

TLover

DOH!!!

harddrivin1le

They met to say "an extra 5% for every 70 mb."

That's obvious when you read their predictions in the sentence below that one.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/

"...but Steve's experience with varying boost levels on his 250-bhp turbo-which churns out approximately an extra five [PERCENT] for every 70-millibar (one-psi) increase in boost or intake pressure-suggested that if it were possible to create one psi of pressure in the airbox, we could be looking at an increase of 5 to 6 bhp."

Skeedatl

He can't keep ANY of these formulas straight. :lol1:

Skeedatl

That's not what they said. Steve says he gets about 5 HP from every PSI increase in boost.

They even WRITE IT OUT. EXTRA FIVE HORSEPOWER. The paragraph says that if Steve gets 5 HP from boosting and extra PSI, then they should see 5-6HP if they can boost 1 PSI.

Where the hell are you getting percentages from. You're rewriting their article.

The article is clear...their experiments flawed and you're buying it hook like and sinker.

Steve is more believable. 5 HP from an addition PSI of boost. That's 5 HP, well within the dyno's margin of error from pressure not seen until around 250 MPH.

So you aren't going to see MEASURABLE, QUANTIFYABLE, VERIFIABLE HP increases 'till Mach .5.

HA HA HA HA HA.