ITL

Not sure what to think of this...

Rarely do I carry passengers in the back seat...this weekend I noticed very odd behavior from my TL.

Friday night, I had a couple in the back and whenever we drove over an irregular surface, bump, etc... the rear of the car would abruptly kick out to one side or the other. Saturday night, I had 3 people in the backseat and this effect was even more pronounced. It is very noticeable above 15mph and was unnerving enough that I didn't drive too much over 40mph. It seems like it would kick to one side, then the other over the next bump. I have not the slightest idea why this would be happening. The only thing I could think of was the lugs, but I went and checked them this morning, and all the nuts were tight. I'd say the rear is jerking maybe 1 to 3 inches- defintely jerks the car and makes for a nervous driver. The more weight in the back, the worse it gets...

-driving me nuts thinkin about what it could be

Pearl04TL

i had noticed the same problem in my tl along with my friend's silver 04 tl. We don't know what it is but since we noticed both cars was doing it we never said anything because we thought it was normal. It is a pretty scary feeling because it feels as if it is going to tail out for couple seconds. i dunno what to say.

Treblig

There is a thread around here that discusses the instability coupled with rapid tire wear when carrying rear passegers for an length of time. Has something to do with the way the rear suspension is set up. Best do a search for that thread and the details.

ITL

I thought I had read something about that before...seems like a terrible issue and should/would have been noticed by many by now. The car feels so squirrelly with passengers, I get nervous even driving 40mph, which is strange b/c normally I am a confident, aggressive driver when there isn't any traffic around.

I wonder if those with drop springs have had anny issues. It seems like this suspension problem would be further complicated once lowered, which btw I have been planning on doing very soon. The geometry of the suspension, when lowered I would think, would be closer to this unstable behavior. And then adding the weight in the rear on top of that....see where I'm going?

Strange that a luxury sedan would behave so terribly when fully occupied with 4-5 passengers as intended. I've had nothing but respect and admiration for the TL since I got it... this puts a damper on that, at least when I have a car-full........anyways, enough whining, gotta get some sleep...hope there's a cure

rets

It seems the heavy loads in the back would make this happen. (Not all the TLs) Some ppl got the extreme abrasion on rear tyres, and some got their rear end skidded. Do you guys also have the abnormal wear on rear tires?

KJSmitty

This is a serious problem that I can't believe Acura has not addressed formally. I haven't yet had a "load" in the back seat/trunk thus haven't experienced it in my TL. I would highly recommend those experiencing this issue drive with extreme caution on icy roads while carrying numerous passengers (or if your TL has non-oem springs). Back in college I had a 72 Datsun sedan that had worn out springs and struts on the rear. It too had a bad rear "geometry" issue. Anytime you hit an icy patch the back end would have a terrible mind of its own. It was all I could do several times to keep the car in a straight line long enough to slow down....

Not saying your TL "will" do this, but from the symptoms described/resulting from a bumpy road,,,,, I am just saying drive carefully.....

PTN

i wonder if all this has something to do with VSA.

one snowy day i was waiting at a light to make a left hand turn in the outside left turn lane. as i started slowly across the intersection and began to turn to the left, the rear of the car suddenly shifted to the right, (drifted) and straightened the car into the lane that i was turning into. it was interesting because i thought to myself, "WOW the car is so nuetral that it evenly slid around the corner" but then i figured that the car might have been "pushing" through the curve so the VSA put it straight again.

i can't say for sure it was VSA since it only happened to me this one time and never on dry pavement, but reading some recent threads leads me to believe this might be a valid explanation for my particular situation. i wonder then if this might be happening over bumpy roads since the VSA might be sensing loss of traction or intended direction and trying to correct somehow.

i should add that i have the A-Spec suspension and was alone in the car at the time and i have had a full carload of people many times but have never experienced what was described earlier in this thread in any other road conditions.

Slava

Does this happen on all the cars? I drove passengers in the rear seat on 5 or 6 occasions and never noticed anything like that...

Car definitely should not jerk one way or the other unless the suspension is unbalanced or something... Is it possbile that there was something heavy in the trunk that shifter to one side?

techguy

I had 3 adults in the rear and a front passenger. My TL was very stable even upto 80 MPH.

arex

I've experienced this sensation many times, without any passengers in the back seat. Usually it's very subtle. At first I thought it had to do with the road surface, because it seemed only to happen on one stretch of freeway (I-8 West before the I-805). But I've since noticed it on other stretches of road. I haven't checked my rear tires for premature wear, but I will now.

RX

ITL

It has happened until recently...and no, there's no way something heavy could have this effect...too strange. Besides, the only thing in my trunk is a box of shop towels, some microfiber rags, cargo net, and trunk tray which total weighs less than 10 lbs...

Brewmaster

I took my fully loaded TL (5 adult passengers) up I-95 into Philly in a torential rain. No adverse handling except at one point when I was in a truck rut. (It kinda wobbled back and forth in the rut) I adjusted my line to be more inbetween the ruts and had no other problems.

In fact it was extremely comfortable and well mannered.

acugirl

Hmmm, could this instability under load be common to sports cars in general?

http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.ph...pic=14568&st=0

indyman

I drove on snow/ice 3 months ago ... no problem

Hit a pothole and flat tire 2 weeks ago.

This weekend driving with two passengers in the back (unlike previous ice experience) ... had a HORRIBLE experience. The interstate was bad ... but not that bad. Dozens of people would pass me ... pickup trucks, semis, sports cars ... but I couldn't drive over 40 without skidding off the road.

Don't know if I have a suspension problems because of the pothole that they didn't see ... if I'll always have a problem with weight in the back.

Very scary.

direk_04TL

could this problem be attributed to the Turanza EL42s? I have the HPT option (Potenza RE030) on my TL and have never experienced anything like this -- with or without a heavy load on the car. just my

fasttl

I agree my TL has been transformed since my EL 42's were worn 50%. IT also behaved completely different with my blizzaks. When the tires were new the car's rear was loose and jumpy, they also howled when pushed over 140mph (though inflated at the optional high pressure). Mine are finally completely worn, I can't wait for spring to put some Michelin PS2's to the test!

JohnDoe2

I usually drive when my coworkers and I go out to lunch and the only difference I've noticed is slightly sluggish acceleration. A couple of these people are huge...including a woman that is pushing 220 pounds of which 100 pounds is all ass.

Maybe your passengers are swaying back and forth just to mess with you.

---- Free fat jokes below -----

She was so fat that when you look up lard in the dictionary, there is a picture of her ass.

She has more chins than a Hong Kong phone book.

She is so fat, you have to roll over twice to get off her.

Rick F.

ITL (and others w/ this problem),

That's a weird one. When the suspension is loaded, the rear suspension geometry can change. Typical example: A heavily loaded BMW almost always has major negative camber in the rear (easily visible--the tops of the rear tires are closer to each other than the bottoms). However, even a lot of negative rear camber wouldn't cause your symptoms.

Toe-out is another issue. If, as the rear suspension is compressed, the rear tires tend to toe out, that would give you a downright scary sensation. The more heavily loaded rear wheel (which, over bumps, could be either one) would tend to "steer" away from the car's centerline. It causes a very twitchy feeling, very much like the back end is skidding out, even those it's actually moving in that direction without the tires skidding. Such toe-out, over a sustained period, would also cause rapid tire wear.

Another possibility would be something broken in the rear suspension, but that would generally be accompanied by clunking sounds or other symptoms, and it would tend to happen with or without loading.

Bottom line: Get thee to a competent dealership, right away. This sounds like a major safety issue. The solution might be as simple as a rear wheel alignment. But it clearly needs to be fixed! Find some beefy mechanics to go for a ride with you.

Good luck, and please let us know what they find.

Rick

ITL

Nope. I've got the Potenza's (HPT option) on my 6MT...good thought though




Rick- Toe sounds reasonable, though I had my alignment checked about a month ago and it was within spec...I actually called my dealership and the Service Mgr said to come by and he'd get a bunch of guys to hop in for a ride...Now I've gotta find some time to get off work and check it out...ugh

crazymjb

I cannot imagine an extra 3-4 hundred pounds of weight making a huge difference. From what I hear it doesnt seem like this is normal through all acuras. After all there is about a 100 pound defecit in the fill level in the gas tank. As I mentioned somewhere else when we test drove in a sno storm and they(my father and dealer) were making tight turns on the ice in a parking lot, my father said they car hugged the ground the entire time. That was with 4 passengers (1 driver) and a full tank. We also went down some roads at 50-60 mph and had no problems. Get it checked out.

ITL

Pretty reasonable response from a 15 year old...


sorry, I HAD to

bluenoser

Actually the problem with several (if not all) 3rd gen TLs is dramatic change of negative toe when carrying weight (within the limits of gross vehicle weight). Acura Canada know about this problem and claim to be working on a solution. For now they have kept me in tires (three sets), will perform a rear alignment to compensate for extra weight alignment, whenever I travel with passengers, and have also set my rear alignment from negative toe to positive toe (which is outside the factory specs) all with the blessing of Acura Canada.

rets

bluenoser, thanks for your posting. Also, as I remembered, bluenoser has tried many different types of tyres, so it's not really the tyre issue but the car itself.


Additional info...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...eral/align.jsp


Camber








Caster








Toe











The toe angle identifies the exact direction the tires are pointed compared to the centerline of the vehicle when viewed from directly above. Toe is expressed in either degrees or fractions-of-an-inch, and an axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge. The toe setting is typically used to help compensate for the suspension bushings compliance to enhance tire wear. Toe can also be used to adjust vehicle handling.

A rear-wheel drive vehicle "pushes" the front axle's tires as they roll along the road. Tire rolling resistance causes a little drag resulting in rearward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Because of this, most rear-wheel drive vehicles use some positive toe-in to compensate for the movement, enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Conversely, a front-wheel drive vehicle "pulls" the vehicle through the front axle, resulting in forward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Therefore most front-wheel drive vehicles use some negative toe-out to compensate for the movement, again enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner.

Before adjusting toe outside the vehicle manufacturer's recommended settings to manipulate handling, be aware that toe settings will influence wet weather handling and tire wear as well.

Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."

Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life.



http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...n/racepres.jsp


http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html





Appendix: bluenoser's cases
https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/good-shot-britney-bikini-lifting-her-leg-99768/
https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/car-stereo-subscription-want-one-free-76995/
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78084
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78744
https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/%2A%2A%2A-sale-pioneer-amp%2A%2A%2A-78793/
https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/why-i-love-toronto-79402/

rets

.

aw1

Can the problem be the suspension? Any TL'ers with the ASPEC suspension, do any of you's have this problem? Havent driven my car with a full load of ppl/luggage so I cant say I have experienced this shifting of the rear end of the car. going to change the original suspension to aspec and add the comptech sway bar in the rear. you guys think this will help?

rets

It seems not all of all 3GTLs get this issue. A few of TL'rs have this serious problem, especially when they have heavy loads in the back. Lots of ppl are not experiencing any skid when loading their cars. The rest is not having chance to add any weight in the rear yet.


But since this thread is getting more and more attention, hope more TL'rs with similar issues could post their experiences over here. And, someone may be able to specifically and directly respond your question more.


This is not the common issue for all TLs, but definitely is the case we need Acura to know and find ways to fix it permanently. IMO.

acuraTL44

Could this possibly mean that the TL would not be a good family car??? Are many tl's doing this?

ITL

rets, this is a wonderful explanation for the exact symptoms I am receiving...I am never amazed at the help in this forum. Thanks! I need to get to the dealer soon.






Possibly those who are having the problems can submit their VINs to a poll associated with this thread. What part of the VIN is associated with a batch of cars? isn't it the last few digits or something? I wouldn't want to put my entire VIN out here, just the necessary ident piece.

crazymjb

Thanks, I think. I am in the auto shop club at school and am Taking automotive exploratory(gonna major in it) and so far i have an A+. Although looking at the size of people in my area the 3-4 hundred pound difference could be more like 8-9 hundred. One benefit to getting a nice car is weight loss. NO MORE DRIVE THROUGHS.

indyman

I called my local dealer ... he said he has never heard about this, and it most be the suspension. I'm not sure it will be that easy. My concern is I usually don't have passengers in the back ... and not usually on slick roads. So, I can think it's fixed ... but won't know until I'm in that situation again. I can't tell you what a nightmare that was.

If Acura Canada is really aware of the problem, I would think all dealers would get somekind an update or concern.

crazymjb

yah, that could bring up a nasty class action suit and recall.

PoochaKannInc

I frequently take trips with my car loaded up. I have not noticed any nervousness. Of course, I have not done that when the weather was really bad, but through rain storms & light snow, it performed just fine.

ONAGER

dont forget you may be over grossing the tls weight limit.....

many belive you cant over gross a car, but acrua states the maximum weight you should carry of cargo and passengers is 850 lbs.... anything above that will adversly effect handling, and braking....

these #'s can be found on the b piller sticker after opening the drivers door.

now that being said.....

here is a quote form the honda news website:

REAR SUSPENSION

The TL rear suspension is a 5-link independent system with struts, coil springs and anti-squat and anti-lift geometry. It mounts to a steel subframe to improve road isolation and a help provide a quiet interior. The rear suspension geometry adds "toe-in" when the suspension is compressed, improving handling stability over bumps and during hard cornering and braking.

A stabilizer bar further improves handling by limiting body roll, while a special "pillow joint" for the lateral links improves camber rigidity. Rubber shims on the leading and trailing arm bushings improve ride comfort.

what does this mean? that the suspension "toe" does change when the rear suspension is compressed. it toes in for stability.

why is this a problem? and to me its more of a driver learning tool then a design flaw. the suspesion was designed with an average load in mind.... you cant please everyone at the same time, comprimises have to be made....

so when the car has an average load (1-2 people, maybe some bags, and1-2 people will almost always sit up front) when you have this average load, the car starts with some suspension travel and normal toe. so as your driving and you hit a corner the inside of the car "unloads" and the outside of the car "loads" up. weight transfer causes the cars weight to move around as you drive.... the outside tire will toe in to aid the car in making the turn, it will steer into the turn. the outside tire remains straight as there is little weight on it. the harder the turn, the more the suspension will compress, the more toe-in the rear suspension will see. this makes for a much more agile car. as the rear end helps steer the car through. chevys newer trucks have a similar system called quadra steer (i think). but chevys uses a steering ram to change the steering and not compression of the suspension.

with a heavier load, the suspension has already started to load up, or compress. so you will begin to get some toe-in going in a straight line. this can make the car a little twitchy, as the tires follow grooves in the road. especially if you hit a bump. as one tire will stay on the road (with the toe-in) while the other compresses and rebounds from the bump. also as the car corners the suspesion will compress even more and the toe-in amt will go up..... the cars rear will try to steer harder as its loaded up with the extra weight, almost like your turning harder then you are... the cars "true" stability isnt changed the back end just moves around a little more then your used to....

and weight in the back will wear down your tires quicker due to this toe-in effect.

again this is a comprimise manufactures have to make, EVERY suspension system has its issues.... the five link rear (tl) has some of the fewest and smallest flaws... i belive bmw has used / is still using the 5 link design on many of there cars

A-TLvic882

Another BS from honda news website, First -- https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108179

NO NO NO NO A-Spec suspension won't help.......

so it's not really the tyre issue, but the car suspension. We have to do something.


My with this problem. VIN 19UUA65554A0153**, and I don't like it.

ITL

ONAGER- I had from 600 to 750 lbs in the car when I noticed it, nowhere near the gross weight you quoted of 850lbs. I've noticed it more when driving in a straight line...and the symptoms I am feeling are those of of toe-out, not toe-in.....

A-TLvic882

We have to File a Complaint on http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/


The campaigns include motor vehicle products which experienced a safety-related defect or did not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards.

so it's not really the tyre issue, but the car suspension. It's not safe!!!!

arex

I took delivery of my TL on 8/30/04, a 6-speed with HPT. Last six digits of my VIN are 068859.

Since this always seems to happen on the same stretch of road, I wonder if it's not at least partially a road surface issue. Could the grooves in the highway be causing our rear ends to become unsettled?

And I've only noticed the problem on straightaways--never when the suspension is under a heavy load as in a turn.

ONAGER

even with 5 people? that makes for some light people..... especially if you have anything in the trunk. might just be me, as im 225.

i have had up to 5 in the car, i have even been over the gross weight.... and all though the car felt different i wouldnt call it dangerous. it didnt react as quick and the back did tend to dance around a bit more....

how do you know the difference from toe-out to toe-in? either toe in or toe out can cause the symptoms you are describing, and depending on the road condition can cause the car to "dart" either alot or a little. florida has very good roads so its no where near as noticable as somewhere with bad roads. and as you add more weight the cars rear toe in would increase, not toe out as you are saying.... and being that it gets worse with wait its a toe out problem.... a toe in issue could cause the cars rear to dart out by hitting even small bumps, as neither rear tire is straight, as one losses traction from the bump, the other will steer the car....

put it on a rack and find out..... check the toe/alignment with no one in it, if it all specs out, check the toe with some weight in the car.... ask to have some guys in the car.... if they wont allow that, go buy bags of rice (big 50lb bags) and put it in the back and check again.... rice is fairly cheap and when you are done you can donate it and write it off your taxes.....

ONAGER

it is safe, the car wont spin out unless you are abusing it, this is essentially true for all cars. they will bite you if your not careful.

this is a design issue, EVERY suspension design has its flaws.

take solid rear axles, great for drag racing, good on smooth roads. but if you take a cornor that has some bumps in it and the car can jump over a few feet or even come around on you.... why? one tire upsets the other as they are joined by a soild rear axle....

my old 280zx had semi trailing arms with coil srings and struts, while this design laid the power down pretty well, if you let off the gas mid turn, the suspension would unload so fast, you were swapping ends before you even realized it was happening.... and yes i have done that many times, a few on the track and a few out on the streets....

its all a comprimise, you have to live with the design faults, but you cant say acura is negligent just for choosing this design, especially when it better then most

A-TLvic882

TL experienced a safety-related defect with rear end. Read all posts from forum