ive seen alot of people comment on how their type s feels better or has more power then their 04 tl. this really got me thinking that maybe it did. so i began to research... now granted this isnt a definitive post i just wanted to compare the two directly to see which "came out on top". we need more dyno graphs of stock and modified cars to gather more info.

heres what i had to work with or at least what i used:

fredrorn's 02 tl type s (AEM CAI, Comptech Headers & Axle-back Exhaust)
http://www.acurainspired.com/gallery...1123&pid=31234

mrsteve's cl-s auto (Comptech Intake/Header/Exaust, uni chip) dyno is about 1/2 way down the page
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...light=hp+wheel

stock 04 tl
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...ge%5fid=193390

now i know that the dyno for the 04 is a manual transmission. but the other two cars have some pretty heavy mods both have an intake, exaust and headers. this i felt should more then make up for the auto vs manual debate.... if anyone has other dynos i could look at it would be great, post them here please. any stock dynos, any year. or if there is a cl type s with a manual that would be great too.

the first link doesnt go by rpm but by speed.... so i cant refer to rpm on that specific dyno but im going to by averages and max reading on that one on that one.... on the other 2 where rpm is at use i can break it down even further and note it.... i will discuss from 3000rpm on up as that after both dynos have "takin shape"

here we go....

the first dyno:
(fredrorn) has a max hp of 223.6, and a max torque of 187.8. now the torque average hovered from 160 to 180 ft lb though the entire run. with the peak right in the middle (around 90 mph) giving a broad torque curve. hp starts at the 170 ish range and climbs all the way to redline giving the peak of 223.6 before it shuts down.... overall a nice run

second run:
(mrsteve) this one is good as it has 2 seperate dynos on the same sheet. although the dyno sheet doesnt tell me what the difference is, since the post is talking about the addition of the uni-chip i can only belive that it is that.... either way we will look at the higher of the 2 runs (the blue one, from 6/29/04, its only fair right?) this one says the maximum hp is 227.1 and that the max torque is 201.2. the horsepower is belivable, but the max torque is inaccurate. if you look the max torque took place as the dyno curve was still shaping up. thats why there is a flair, then comes down and stabilizes. i feel that isnt an accurate reading so we will take info from 3000 rpm and later. the torque curve on this motor is about as flat as they come (great for drivability). it hovers in the 185 ft lb range. it has a small drop in the 3700 rpm range but it is only about 5-10 ft lbs and for such a short period, that it is of little consiquence. and right about 6000 rpm, the motor hit its true peak of about 187 lbs or so. hp starts at 110 @3000 rpm and climbs up to a total 227.1 @6600. this motor has great pull and with a flat torque curve im sure it provides outstanding performance. good pulls mrsteve!!!

third dyno chart
04 dyno from temple of vtec. hp checks in at a maximum of 222.3 and torque comes in at 208.1.... let that settle in for a second.... a stock 04 actually has over a 20 ft lb difference in maximum torque then the type s. back to the curves... the 04 tl shows approx 200 ft lb from where the curve forms up @3000 rpm until it hits its spike at 5000 rpm (spike is a gain of 8-10 ft lb) at which point it drops back to 200 ft lbs for 500 rpm and then continues to drop from there. @ 6500 rpm the engine is only producing 175 lbs (still only 10 less then the tl type s). the engine is producing 115 hp @ 3000 rpm and climbs hard and fast all the way to its power peak of 222.3 @6200 rpm. the type s is at 220 hp at the same 6200 rpm. so the motors power curves are very close to that point. at which point the 04 timing is dialed back and the engine responds by losing power. and the type s will gain a few more ponies and hold them till red line.
an excellent showing for all the 04's out there

over-all: the 04 puts down far more torque then the type s 15lb over the entire powerband and 20+ at peak. it only starts to loose ground when the 04 powers past 6000 rpm where the the engine is pulling timing (with time this should be solved) when it comes to hp the type s is still at a disadvantage down low about 5 hp or so, they climb at an almost identical rate and then as the 04 motor peaks the type gains a small lead till it tops out some 600 rpm later. now... yes both of the type s motors are strapped to a auto tranny so it would suck a little more power then the manual that the 04 has. but the mods that both type s have should more then cover for the loss. mr steve said that his mods were worth 27hp so if you were to remove the mods that would put a stock type s at or about 200 whp. if you take a 5% difference between the manual and auto (im sure we can all agree that manuals sap about 15% of power, and autos about 20%) then 200 hp + 5% (difference between auto and manual) = 210 hp about what its rated behind the 04 tl (04=270, 03=260) and dont forget that k&n got an additional 6.8 hp with there typhoon cai. that would put the 04 power peak at 229.1 hp.

all in all i have to say that the 04 held up well and put down just what it should, also it doesnt give up anything down low to he type s, if anything it has the power advantage.... would appriciate comments or additional dyno graphs so that i can continue to reasearch....

thanks
ONAGER

 

Dyno a CL-S 6-speed vs. an 04 TL 6-speed.....

and an TL-S vs. a TL auto........

These Acura auto trannys have been known to suck 25% of the power on the Dyno.

Here is Comptech's dyno of a 6-speed CL-S:
http://www.comptechusa.com/images/dy...spd_icebox.pdf

 

 

Onager - overall a good comparison. Of course they might not be as an accurate comparison as we might like since different dynos can have quite a bit of difference in what they record. I have seen a 15HP difference between different dynos but with the exact same vehicle.

Any info on test conditions such as if they were close to STP (standard temperature pressure)? I'd be interested in compensating for altitude and temps at the very least to make cross comparison's even more accurate.

My preceding comments were not directed at diminishing what you've done but to allow us to draw even more accurate conclusions. I know I appreciate the effort you put into this. That's why forums such as this one can be so useful.

 

i agree that this is not a deffinative conclusion thats why i posted that at the begining of my first post... i do agree with all the variables and that they can skew the data... but i just wanted to see for myself if the type s was superior. k&n dyno and temple of vtec (on an 04) came out fairly close to each other. so did mrsteve and fredrorn. so although there can be variables these dynos show a "pattern" and a pattern is better then nothing....

as an aside, dynos dont take into acct weather info? i know that tracks can, why cant dynos?

 

The '04 TL also weighs about 100-150lbs more than the '02 TL-S ('02 CL-S) .. that makes a difference.

As awesome of a job as you've done compiling/analyzing these realtime statistics .. I still have to say that on paper is one thing, but at the track is a whole 'nother ballgame. From all the posts I've read about stock '04 TL's (5AT) running down the strip .. and comparing them to the hundreds and hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts about actual 1/4mile times for stock '01+ CL-S's ... it seems the Cl-S is quicker by a few to several tenths at the track.

Seat of the pants feeling .. the '02 Type S still takes the cake for me (stock vs. stock) .. part of it has to do w/ the direct cable link throttle control that I miss so dearly in my '04TL (I hate ECT!) .. I also loved (as 2k2 mentioned) how the TL-S's shifts were damn quick .. and it seemed like it could rev another 500 rpms beyond what the '04TL revs to ..

Plus... I"m a big fan of how a car sounds, and 2k2 hit it on the head when he said the TypeS sounded so much sweeter --

 

I used to have a list of dynos that would specifically correct for STP. I don't recall anymore who does and doesn't. There aren't a ton of dynos in my area like when I lived down south. Dynojet dynos will correct but there can be issues with that as well. I prefer uncorrected but to see the underlying weather data and then figure it out myself. Since most of my cars are turbo'd or SC (TL the lone exception) uncorrected is usually better for me.

 

thanx for the dyno plot. looking at the lower curve, without the airbox. that cars dyno curve is almost identical to the 04 tl dyno curve. looking at the lower curve, without the airbox. including the power dropping off pretty quick after the power peak at 6200. both of the other type s car maintained there power all the way to redline (they actually made there power peak higher as well) the numbers all the way are so close. at @ 3000 the 04 put down about 115, this cl 116. at 4000 the tl had 150ish, the cl put down 152. @5000 the tl put down 200ish, the cl 198. they both hit there power peak at 6200, both in the low 220's with the tl being ever so slightly ahead. then they both drop off and the power falls off with both ending up at 210 hp at 6800. simply awsome, that they are that close...

i wonder what was done to the car for that dyno.... although the hp dyno says its just an airbox dyno, the torque dyno which is just below the hp one shows headers, down pipe and axle back exaust in addition to the airbox.... makes me wonder? if stock for the lower curve thats a stout cl, if the headers, and exaust are included it shows the 04 does hold a power advantage over the older cars....

the 04 tl torque curve is still just a little higher the the cl's (208 vs 203) but a 5 ft lb difference wouldnt be noticable. the cls to hovers around 200 ft lb for almost all of the dyno curve

what are the weight differences between an 04 and an 03?

now i want more dyno plots anyone got some?

 

Peter,

That's why I can't get rid of my Type S. I love it too much for those reasons......

 

bump...

any one know the exact weight difference between an 04 and an 03 tl? what about the cl?

also does anyone know wether that dyno curve that 2k2silvertl-s provided from computech was stock? or did it actually have the exaust headers, down pipe, and exaust?

what are the stock quarter mile times for the 03 cl/tl type s? i know nitrotiger ran a 14.2 @ 98.33 with just a drop in.... any stock 03s running close to the same?

 

i checked the math on the cl dyno sheet and have come up with the fact that the dyno sheets for torque and hp are matched. meaning the lower sheet which lists mods as header, downpipe, and axle back exaust is probably accurate. so the cl had slight mods when this graph was produced.... so the newer tl does hold a very slight power advantage over the older models. now i know different dyno can produce different results, this is just what i had to go by. i wanted to know if the two dyno sheets from computech were matched to each other and they are.... the lower sheet shows the mods

feel free to check my math

torque X RPM /5250 = horsepower

203.5 ft lbs * 3000 rpm = 610500
610500/5250 = 116.28 hp

199.9 ft lbs * 4000 rpm = 799600
799600/5250 = 152.3 hp

207.7 ft lbs * 5000 rpm = 1038500
1038500/5250 = 197.8 hp

192.5 ft lbs * 6000 rpm = 1155000
1155000/5250 = 220.0 hp

 

Sounds like we may need some SteVTEC analysis to confirm your findings!!

 

With the site changing late last year, my dyno graph that was in my gallery is gone. I don't have a scanner here either, but I was with scalbert and the TOV guy when they dyno'd the auto '04 TL. Additionally, I didn't look it up but I thought the new TL was also about 100 pounds heavier that the 2nd gen.

My car was at 233.7hp/196.7tq ('02 TL-S with intake, headers, crank pulley). The peak hp is at 6700 rpms with peak torque at 6100. My torque bar stays about 185tq from 3300rpms onward to 7000rpms when it finally reaches back to 175tq. The car makes 200hp starting at 5400 rpms...

I'm too lazy to link, but the auto '04 put down (I think) like 208hp/202tq) but it indeed started strong but dipped early for the torque.

In my other posts, you will see where I have run an '04 6sp. Every time the car will take me off the line by about 1/2 to a car length but by 60-70mph I am already catching and beginning to pass it. The driver was also a VERY GOOD driver.

My best 1/4 was 14.239 with poorly tread tires and the car regularly runs 14.3xx. This is also simple 'stomp and go' style as I can't drive for crap when shifting this car in s/s or gate shifting. I say this because unless you know how to really drive the 6mt, auto with mods will keep up or beat you.

 

my stock 04TL 6mt will take a stock typeS any day!!!!


who wanna test me??

 

I'm your huckleberry...

 

6MT vs 5AT, it had better!!

 

representing for the 6 mt yeah baby!!! go school him....

 

i understand the new tl is heavier the the old tl... thats probably why people feel there faster, also the sound more agressive... sound can go a long way to making me think my car is quicker. my contour felt quicker then my tl because i remember that charge to redline, the shriek when the secondarys opened.... the tl is so wisper quite it fools me as to how fast it really is.

if you could please post your dyno graph i would appriciate it...

208-210 sounds about right for a stock 04 with auto it probably should have a little more (215ish) but, we will take what we can get...

now that means that your car is 25 hp greater then the new tl. how much power is an intake worth? headers? pulley? also do you have an exaust? please dont tell me you got headers and no exaust... if you do, how much is that worth? its hard to compare stock cars to modified just for that reason, we dont know.... the dyno of the cl type s from computech is almost identical to the new 04 tls, and it had headers, down pipe, and exaust.... with the intake it did pull ahead in power.

i started this thread to compare the old type s to the new 04. people said the old car felt better, more powerful... in fact thats not the case, they so far are less powerful. but perception is everything. weight, gearing, chassis dynamics, and sound, all change how we perceive acceleration..

 

LOL! Yes, headers and no exhaust. I didn't want anything any louder than stock and I've seen people's dyno's done within the same day or within a coupld of days that had intake and headers, and after adding the Comptech exhaust (I think one guy had a louda$$ A'pexi), they gained less than 5hp...I sacrificed...

Anyway, I am agreeing with your post for the most part, just not entirely. I believe the older car "feels faster" as their appears to be a larger "surge" in power as the rpms build almost to the redline itself. The newer car makes better use of its power over a greater range, making it feel less slow because of less surge.

Of course I would agree that a new TL with i/e/pulley would likely be as fast if not faster than my car, but the headers do add at least 20hp. That being said, 100lbs of weight is about a 10hp differential as well in the long run. My post further confirms the newer car is stronger off the line--stronger than my modified car. My advantage over a newer TL is definitely more from a roll than a stop where the newer car's added torque helps.

Lastly, if we can get the scanner working over here again I'll post my dyno. Either way, scalbert would vouch for my numbers...

ps: That day we tried the AEM set-up and though it added more power (up to 239hp), it was a rather a crude gadget for me with the whole harness issue and at that time, I was contemplating the s/c rather than the AEM or Unichip. He also laid over 320whp in his CL-S 6sp...

 

320 whp in a six speed cl.... thats just plain crazy.... that over 100 more then i have right now, and my car fights for traction... if i unload the clutch with anything more then 2000 rpm the tires go up in smoke... i have to pedal it to get a good run.... thinking about buying some drag radials and taking it to the track...

i knew the headers are a big advantage that you guys have over us.... although we cant buy "headers" i know the racing tl had a down pipe (or what ever you want to call it) bolted to the new manifold setup. i think that if you were to port match the exaust manifold to that down pipe we would pick up a few ponies, especially since it would delete the two close coupled cats.... just dont get caught. id like to get my hands on a set to see...

also this closed manifold setup might make it easy to bolt a turbo kit up later on... (real later as the motor compression is way to high in my opinion). it gives a strong mounting flange for the pipes to be run off of. or maybe bolting 2 small turbos right to the flange on either side (i havent looked for clearence, im just speculating)...

im waiting for a good chip to come out too. supposedly the 04 computer pulls timing on the top end and lowers the power. at least thats what they report over at temple of vtec.

we will wait and see

-onager

 

It indeed pulls the timing. Hence the AEM unit we were playing with more for his CL-S. It picked up some extra hp, but there were a lot of spikes and the a/f was getting all out of whack. We were there almost three hours doing multiple pulls to no avail...But that was like February of last year...

I personally have decided to move to the G35c because of the fwd limitations. My car is hard enough to keep down. I have driven an s/c'd TL-S and it was very quick, but even more hard to hold on to. Like Comptech, Stillen provides a great warranty and is starting to get some dealer support so s/c will be the way for me on that car...

 

http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/21-...Acura%20TL.pdf

aem dyno with intake, corrected

this was a very stout tl to begin with.... but this intake looks very promising

 

Yabutt....

This is AEM's marketing spin. It comes from the people trying to sell the thing.

Remember that the people selling the Tournado propeller thing for your intake promised 20% improvement in gas mileage too. Bogus.

Might be accurate but I'd have more confidence in a dyno chart done by a disinterested party.

It is interesting, however. Thanks for linking.

 

I believe the dyno chart.AEM claims 19whp with the v2 for the RSX-S and people been getting around 18whp.U can search RSX-S forums.

 

I would still like to see stock vs stock 5AT vs 5AT 2g 3g.

One other thing that is if the 6MT has that much more over the 5AT on a dyno then why does acura state this in their marketing. Or it is the fact that the 0-60 times matters the most.

As for an 04 having that much more torque than a 2G (I know you cannot check all cars), then are people thinking that acura understate the torque at 238... was the older car more tired... etc..

 

haha, this must be a joke. (comapring the type-s to an 04 and up 6spd mt. i had an 02 tl type s , an 02 cl type s with comptech headers - a big whoopty-doo by the way, a 2000 s2000 , and now currently an 04 tl 6MT. I WILL TELL YOU STRAIGHT UP IN MY OPINION THAT NONE OF THE CARS JUST LISTED, except for s2000 of course, CAN EVEN COMPARE TO MY 04 tl 6MT IN TERMS OF POWER AND real life street light encounters. NOT EVEN A COMPTECH EQUIPPED CL-S CAN BEAT ME, which i was shocked by the way since i thought they'd for sure beat me-lighter-comptech equipped. OBVIOUSLY when acura went to the drawing board to conjur up what they advertised as a measly 10 hp increase from 2G to 3G TL, they were speaking softly and carrying a BIG STICK.

 

Holy thread resurrection Batman....

 

X2 this thread is 2 years old

 

who cares there will alway's be faster car'!

 

you bumped this thread to say that?