You did what very, very few FWD cars will ever do on street tire, a credit to the weight of the car. That would destroy most RWD cars off the line. I don't mind being proven wrong when you're setting records like this. But you will never ever hit a 4.5 sec 0-60......

 

Hahaha(really)..... I saw that one coming!

 

Below, you can see a sequence of pics showing how I picked the "5 mph" position.


Below, not there yet.




Below, this (0.167) is the one that I think most accurately depicts the "5 mph" position.











As established previously, the "60 mph" position is 4.571.

4.571 - 0.167 = 4.404

5 Mph --> 60 Mph = 4.4 Seconds

 

Found this while getting the info for Opel.

The tire pressure for both videos (4.6 & 4.7) was 33 psi (front).

 

You sure seem to have a lot of time to make these videos, but still resist going to HRP. You sure would gain a lot more credibility if you went to the strip and get some slips to back up your claims. HRP is one of the quickest strips in the nation. Surely you have a free Friday night to go out there and run. Grudge racing at HRP is every Friday night from 6pm to 12am. Why not go instead making these videos?

If your car is truely doing 4.6-4.7 0-60s, it should be seeing 12.9-13.1. I kind of find that hard to believe. I'm guessing closer to 13.8-14.0.

 

Impressive vids! That's one of the meanest sounding TL's I've ever heard.

time to gut Stacy!

 

just about to say. go to the track!!! that'll show some real proof. =)

 

Thanks guys for the acknowledgment and rave reviews of the videos. For many years, I have silently endured ridicule and hostile jealousy over my TL Diet. I am deeply touched to be receiving salvation from the ridicule. Your kind words do mean a lot to me. Thanks guys!

 

then it must be the gear ratios that make the manul faster than the auto.

wouldnt that mean that a 6 speed tl with the same weight as innacurate would theoretically be quicker to 60 than his?

 

i always knew that you were probably faster than most tl's on the board because the 3g is soooo heavy. (not that my 2g isnt heavy)

thats my biggest gripe with my car.

Costco: already lost 70 lbs last week

 

Better gear ratios, direct coupling of the engine to trans (clutch vs convertor), no hydraulic pump to drive, and slightly less weight. I agree with you, a good driver in a manual should be faster.

 

WELL DONE ... i never had a doubt

 

Are you ever going to go to the strip and see what it really is capable of?

 

Also, you're not yanking our chain about the tires are you? You said you're running the OEM size tires now? Why is that? Doing a quick calculation with a gear ratio calculator shows that the 1-2 shift with 25.5" tall tires should be occuring around 44-45mph. According to the video, the shift is occuring at a crack over 40mph. Granted, there will be some speedometer lag time, but it sure looks to me like gearing for a tire in the 24.5" range (1-2 shift at ~41-42mph).

 

Dave- you know I agree with pretty much everything you say but this one is a little off.

It could only be true of the speedo was driven using GPS or an external 3rd wheel. You could put 10" tires on it and indicated shift points vs indicated mph would stay the same while actual speed would be way off. I do seem to remember the tires may be smaller in diameter than stock but not for sure. I'm sure Inaccurate will let us know. Worst case it may be 0-58mph and not 0-60 but let's see what he has to say.

 

In addition to what I said above, these cars might offer GPS correction of tire diameter. In the diagnostics it does have a +- tire correction that looks like it's done automatically. In this case the scenario has the possibility of being true as the speedo is correctly recalibrated for a smaller diameter tire.

I'm not going either way on this thing, just talking out loud.

 

Even so, something isn't adding up. BTW, he did state these runs were on OEM sized tires. No reason was given as to why he's swapped back when he's so focused on shedding weight.

Here are the ratios for the 5AT.

1st 2.56
2nd 1.55
FD 4.428

235/45R17 tire (new) = ~25.5"

If you freeze the frame when the speedo hits ~60mph, you'll see the tach is right at 6000rpms. With stock size tires at 6000rpms, the MPH should show 66-67mph. 60mph@6000rpms with that overall gearing in 2nd, would indicate a 23.2" tire. That's a short freaking tire compared to stock, crapload more torque multiplication, and overestimated in gear mph. My point is data isn't making sense when you start caculating out the ratios vs mph. Something is off, way off which could definitely be influencing these stellar 0-60 times.

I guess I'm in the minority here. I've never put any faith in stopwatch times even though he's a done a really good job with this test. Also, I've put much faith in OEM speedometers and tachs, especially in a race situation. The proof, at least to me, would come from legit timing equipment at the strip. It levels the playing field. It shows what this car is capable of off the line and through the 1/4 mile.

 

Torque convertor slippage. You'll get anywhere from 20% to 5% on a factory convertor at WOT.

I too would prefer track times to satisfy my curiosity. There's no doubt the rpms climb much, much faster than my 5AT TL but it would be nice to see this translated into ET and mph.

 

He's on 235/40-17 PS tires = ~24.4"

 

Thanks IHC for bringing this to my attention. I had not responded yet because

"This message is hidden because Dave_B is on your ignore list."


And Dave_B is proving why is on my ignore list. He has a lot of hatred toward me. He has for some time now.

!! Please closely read what I am saying. No speed reading please. !!

You could have 4 inch diameter tires on the car, and the tach and speedometer would have the same RPM-vs-speedometer relationship. The RPM-vs-speedometer relationship has nothing to with tire diameter. Put the car on blocks, take all four wheels off, and the RPM-vs-speedometer relationship would be the same.

Thus, we can see that Dave_B's conspiracy theory (RPM-vs-speedometer relationship) has no merit. But, he does bring up the tire diameter.

With different diameter tires, the actual MPH (for example, a radar gun) would obviously be different than what the speedometer is indicating.


I do not have access now to the video editing software to capture a picture, but this is close enough.



If you wish, you can say that my 0-60 is 4.7 seconds.

If I had included the typical rollout in my ET, this "revised 4.7" would had been approx 4.4 or 4.5 seconds.

Nearly everyone allows a bit of rollout, including a dragstrip. The only folks that I am aware of that are strict in *not* including any rollout is Edmunds. Everyone knows that Edmunds has very conservative numbers (slow) because of their strict "no rollout" policy.

I adopted this strict "no rollout" policy too in deriving my 0-60 numbers.

BTW - my car is Non-Nav. So, the car does not have the ability to self-correct.

 

I thought he was a 6MT.

Yes, all else equal, the 6MT should be a little quicker due to gear ratio, less drive train loss (i.e. effeciency) and weight of MT vs AT trans.

 

Hey Inaccurate,

Any plans to bring your car to the 1/4 mile track? It would be interested to see the 1/4 mile ET and trap speed. I though I read a post of yours saying why you weren't interested in doing so but I can't recall...could have easily been another post about by someone else!

Anyways, thanks for the inspiration...i'm trying to shed as much weight as possible now (on the TL...wouldn't mind gaining a few pounds myself).

Norm

 

I am here to share my experiences. I am not here to deceive anyone or myself.
I welcome “peer review”. But, please do so in a polite fashion. Presenting your arguments/concerns/questions in the fashion of “you're not yanking our chain … are you?” is very rude and accusatory.

Now that I am at home, I can get some pics for us.



In the pic above, this shows that I closed the throttle at 4.705 seconds. From 4.705 seconds and thereafter, my foot is off of the throttle. The car accelerates slowly from that point forward because the TL has a feature called something like “gear hold”. The computer holds the trans in that gear with slight throttle in case the driver decides to “get back into the throttle”. Cool feature by the way.

Below are pics of interest. I will let the reader decide what pic they want to choose for themselves. I am not here to bicker over the details. However, I do “have a bone to pick” in a minute.





Here is my “bone to pick”. In the pic below, No matter what the errors might be from wheel diameter, you just remember this much……

Inaccurate ran 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and that was with my foot off of the throttle from 4.705 seconds until 5.000….. For all my haters, you go to bed tonight remembering that.

 

I NEED A FAVOR....

I need someone with a 5AT J32 (*not* a J35...different trans) to try this. Put your trans in SS and keep it in gear "2". Slowly accelerate to 20, 30, 40 mph while in gear "2". Just slowly rev up to these speeds, *not* heavy throttle. Please see if your RPM's are as follows while in gear "2"

20 mph = 2,000 RPM
30 mph = 3,000 RPM
40 mph = 4,000 RPM

I did this on the way home today. Mine matched exactly. This should help to dispel some of the concerns raised by Dave_B.

 

Yes sir. Thanks.

Wrong. You misinterpret what I said. Under my "Factoids" section, I said

"This was on normal tires, Michelin PS2. These are the same exact tires that I have had on the car for the past few months. Nothing (including chemical treatments) was done to the tires."

When I said "normal tires", I did not mean OEM size. This *is* the racing subforum. I meant that I was not using drag slicks, drag radials, circle track tires, etc. By "normal", I meant a tire that a normal person (not a drag racer) would use on a DAILY BASIS.

I did *not* swap tires for these videos. These are my everyday tires. "No lug nuts were turned in the making of this video." Sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.

Dave_B - BTW, I will read your new replies in this thread for the next few days out respect and courtesy.

 

Dave_B always stirs the pot.. lol.. at least it's interesting.

 

its intelligent car talk as far as im concerned. Learning for those who dont know as points are proven..

 

I have no hatred towards you or anyone on this site. I'm sorry that questioning the validity of your tests and modifications is somehow construed as "hatred". That’s not my intent.

You make some pretty wild claims like walking C5 Vettes on the street, having an estimated static weight of 2950lbs, your car makes 250whp, such and such a mod should *insert claim*. From what I've seen, the only data you have to support your claims is either estimated, street races, stopwatch times, and what you may have researched. You haven't dynoed the car, weighed it, nor tested it on the strip. There's no doubt in my mind you've got the fastest NA 5AT 3rd gen TL in the world. As it should be seeing your modifications and weight reduction. But the claims without factual data is a bit too much for a numbers guy like myself. If you were on any other hardcore automotive sites, you'd be laughed away. Maybe that's why I come off sounding like a jerk. Years of doing this stuff made me put the mods to the test.

You seem to be pretty avid about the racing, improving the performance of your car, and sharing your findings with site. You obviously street race and clearly try to entice others to race, even in traffic. Why not keep the racing on the strip? I'd honestly expect a little more from a 49 y/o. Are you afraid to see that the results will be? Same goes for the dyno. It's $50 for three pulls. Same for the weight. Go to a truck scale, pay $10, and get the weight. I believe HRP has a track scale too and that's free. BTW, I'm not trying to have a "I dare you" attitude. Don't you want to know the answer? Don't you want to share the findings with the site?

As for the gearing, I did misread your post about the tires and appologize. I read "normal" has you were using OEM size tires. As for the rpm vs speedometer relationship. I disagree. Speed isn't captured the same way as it use to be with a gear in the tranny and wire. Speed sensors on the axles and hubs are all gathering the data. 60mph on 24.5" tires would mean 5700rpms. Like "I Hate Cars" pointed out one must consider torque converter sliggage under WOT. So I'll give you the 300rpms. Regardless, by just doing the math, the shorter tires could be showing 60mph when in reality you're doing 55ish or so. Regardless, even considering TC slippage, the speedometer vs rpm aren't matching up. Calculate the numbers yourself and you'll see where I'm coming from on this. The calculator is spot for my G35 5AT, my old Maxima 5MT, and old 94 Z28 A4.

http://xse.com/leres/bin/gearratio?t...rofile=&wheel=

 

WOW. That's astonishing. That thing PULLS. Please get a vid to 100 lol. You have to take your car to the track. With the speedo moving like that you are no doubt in the low 13s. You may have the fastest NA TL evarrrr!

 

I'll do it on the way to work in the morning. I already know the results though. What I'm going to do is steady state at the speeds and rpms you requested then do it under load to see how much convertor slippage there is. The under load portion won't be very accurate obviously since I have to see in a split second where both gauges are at the same time. Then there's the accuracy of the factory guages. I've found the speedo to be extremely accurate when tested against my friend's radar but the tach is an unknown.

Not that it will make a bit of difference but my tires are 255/40/17. I believe 1/4" shorter than stock.

 

Dave_B,

Yes, I knew that this would be hard to believe. There is a saying that extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. This is why I included detailed pics, “certified" the camcorder’s time track, was conservative in picking the Start/Stop points, including no roll out.

I am just presenting what I have to folks that choose to believe me based on my online persona.

We still disagree on the RPM-vs-Speedometer point. I said my part, you said your part.

You are wrong in saying that my tires cause the speedometer to indicate 60 when I am really traveling 55 mph. There is approx 2 mph difference, not 5 mph difference.

“You obviously street race and clearly try to entice others to race, even in traffic. Why not keep the racing on the strip? I'd honestly expect a little more from a 49 y/o”

I would appreciate it if you would not use this tone with me. This *is* the racing subforum. If you are upset by street racing, stay out of this subforum. In this subforum, we discuss racing, including street racing.. I don’t go to the general Acurazine forum discussing racing, so don’t come to the Racing subforum patronizing me.

 

IHC,

Thanks

As we both know, your tires have no effect. You could remove your wheels and it would read the same.

Don't worry about converter slippage. I have that answer already.

From working with the videos in the editing software, I noticed (was amazed) that the RPM's in 2nd matched perfectly to the ratio of 10 mph per every 1000 rpm. In going frame-by-frame in the video software, I can see that the tach reads EXACTLY 6000 rpm at 60 MPH on the speedometer. This is obviously at WOT.

This afternoon, I did the SS in "2" with light throttle, slowly rev'ing and watched the relationship. Same "10 mph per every 1000 rpm" relationship under no load.

Based on this, there is no discernable slippage that can be seen on the instruments (tach and speedo).

I just need someone to "backup" my story that we have this "10 mph per every 1000 rpm" relationship. THANKS

 

That's great and all, but all we're seeing is a video of tach and speedometer ripping through the gears. I could go make the same video, turn off my traction control, induce some wheelspin, and show you an NA G35 doing 0-60 in 3 seconds. I'm in no way implying you did anything of the sort, but the point is timeslips and track video is worth a lot more that videos of the dash cluster and some stopwatch data. I know you disagree.

You're correct, this is a racing forum, but it's also a public forum and I'm entitled to my own opinion about street racing. All I said was I'd expect a little more out of someone who's 49. I'd expect street racing posts from an 18 y/o, but 49 is a rarity. Don't you have kids or are an uncle? Do you not understand what could happen if hurt someone while racing.....in TX of all places Could you live with yourself if you wiped out a family simply because you wanted to show the guy in a Mustang what a TL is capable of? I'm no saint and I did my share of street racing back in the 1990s. I grew up, saw the stupidity in it, realized I was a total ass by putting the public in danger, and I saw the outcomes of street racing accidents. I took the racing to the strip where I could do it legally, improve my driving, beat cars I shouldn't be beating, and most importantly, getting legit numbers. Numbers that allowed me to assess modifications and how they impacted the car's performance, increment by increment. It also allowed me to realize just how many mods out there are pure BS (ie UDPs).

Finally, if it bothers you so much to have a debate, then maybe you should consider not posting to public forums. You seem to be quite the touchy fellow.

 

inaccurate....i asked a 5-60 mph because generally, especially on manual cars...times are slower than 0-60, but in ur case i suspect the opposite or about the same...
looking at ur vid and trying to pick the time between 5 and 60 isn't the right way to do it, because its still as a 0-60 launch. momentum is already gained as opposed to riding at 5 mph and then punching it.

 

I did some reading on the 5-60 thing. I found that it is called a "street start".

From my reading, I found that the reason most cars are slower is because it removes the opportunity to use wheel spin as a form of "slipping the clutch" to get the engine in the powerband.

Right, in my case there would be no difference. As you know, I was using traction control. My times did not rely on artificially getting the engine into the powerband.

 

ok now i read the rest of the rambling....about the speedo and tach being diffferent with diff tire sizes...thats not true at all...tire sizes will only change the speed at which the car is moving, nothing else.

 

yes thats correct, it is called Street Start, some manufacturers also provide this info along with 0-60 times.

reason, i asked you bcs i wanted to see the difference with ur shaved weight.

yes i know about lack of wheel spin, but even so, it still allows you some initial climb in the rpm till TC lockup...yes its a fraction but i just wanted to see the difference on the 5 mph street start

 

The street start was originally to show how tractable the powerband was. The idea is to start the car with the clutch fully engaged at 5mph and low rpm and floor it to see how it pulls. It also takes some of the wheelspin out of the equation in some of the cars.

 

I concede to defeat. I was wrong about the speedo vs tach relationship. I looked into it further and you are right. I was trying to apply the same findings to when I've run my 23.5" drag radials on my G while keeping the 26.3" tires on up front.

I still feel that the shorter tires are influencing the 0-60 times though and that you're at 56ish mph when it says 60mph. Also, I, along with a lot of people on this site would like to see what this TL is truely capable of on the strip. You still haven't given a reason as to why you're avoiding the strip. Inquiring minds want to know

 

I just did the 2nd gear 10mph/1,000rpm increment test.

What I found is steady state 20,30, and almost 40mph are pretty close. At 40, the tach is showing 3,700/3,800rpm. At 50 it gets farther off and at 60 it has over a 500rpm discrepency.

I tried putting it under load with the brakes on holding at each increment and I can easily go over the 1,000rpm/10mph rule until 40mph. At 40, I can get it even at 40/4,000 at 50 and 60 even under load the rpms are lower than the mph.

I'm not sure why mine would be different other than tach/speedo error. I'm sure the trans fluid was not up to temp so the thicker fluid may have had a small influence on convertor slippage. I waited until 5 minutes after the water temp came fully up so hopefully the oil was warm enough but any longer I would be at work. I'll do a longer drive after work today but I don't think it's going to make much of a difference.