TL 6MT - Performance Shifting
11-27-2004, 01:35 PM
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TL 6MT - Performance Shifting
When I'm not really pushing the car, upshifiting can be done very, very smoothly. However, when you really want to run up through the gears for maximum performance, it seems very difficult to do smoothly. I mean, if you wait the necessary time to rev-match for the upshift, then its seems that you are losing performance. But if you don't wait to rev-match then you are dropping the clutch and relying on the synchros. So what is the solution? Anyone have any thoughts on this? 
11-27-2004, 02:39 PM
#2
04 A-TL 6MT SSM/E N/Navi
Originally Posted by seamg
When I'm not really pushing the car, upshifiting can be done very, very smoothly. However, when you really want to run up through the gears for maximum performance, it seems very difficult to do smoothly. I mean, if you wait the necessary time to rev-match for the upshift, then its seems that you are losing performance. But if you don't wait to rev-match then you are dropping the clutch and relying on the synchros. So what is the solution? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
only practice
11-27-2004, 03:15 PM
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I can do it smootly if I wait to rev match, but that takes a few seconds, not much but still. I guess that is the point. Sometimes I wonder if the automatic could actually be faster? I mean, I prefer the 6MT over an auto for several reasons, but I wish the tranny was a bit sportier.
11-27-2004, 03:22 PM
#4
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You can come close to speed shifting this car, but I wouldn't try a full blown speed shift, mainly because the shifter is too weak to take that kind of abuse, not because of what you are worried about. I've pulled some pretty fast shifts with it but nothing like what I could do in my '66 S396/360 L34 Chevelle. With that thing, I was able to really do some serious speed shifting.
Incidently to clarify things, speed shifting is essentially shifting in a normal fashion, clutch in/gas off/shift/back on gas, only you do it VERY fast. In order to do a proper speed shift, you have to move a little forward in your seat and when you pull the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts, throw your whole body into the shift. That's why I say the shifter won't stand up to that kind of abuse. A lot of people confuse speed shifting with power shifting and I've run into such confusion on this site a few times. They are NOT the same.
Incidently to clarify things, speed shifting is essentially shifting in a normal fashion, clutch in/gas off/shift/back on gas, only you do it VERY fast. In order to do a proper speed shift, you have to move a little forward in your seat and when you pull the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts, throw your whole body into the shift. That's why I say the shifter won't stand up to that kind of abuse. A lot of people confuse speed shifting with power shifting and I've run into such confusion on this site a few times. They are NOT the same.
11-27-2004, 03:32 PM
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Southern Boy, would you please explain in greater detail what speed shifting is, including what is happening mechanically (I've read your explanations before, so I know that you know this stuff); and the same for power shifting (which I have never heard of).
thanks!
thanks!
11-27-2004, 03:47 PM
#6
04 A-TL 6MT SSM/E N/Navi
Originally Posted by seamg
I can do it smootly if I wait to rev match, but that takes a few seconds, not much but still. I guess that is the point. Sometimes I wonder if the automatic could actually be faster? I mean, I prefer the 6MT over an auto for several reasons, but I wish the tranny was a bit sportier.
Is it your first MT car?
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11-27-2004, 07:29 PM
#9
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To seamg;
Sure. There are basically three methods of shifting to employ in drag racing. I would like to emphasize here that I'm talking about street machines, not pro-stockers, funny cars, or AA/Fuelers. Also these street machines may or may not be modified, but for this discussion, I will be referring to American supercars of the mid-60's.
Speed shifting is nothing more than normal shifting, only you do it as fast as you can. This means you use the clutch and you let up on the throttle between shifts. But as I said, you do this VERY fast. You MUST have a strong shifter otherwise you risk damaging the one you have. If you do this correctly, you'll be amazed at how fast you can shift. I used this method in my '66 SS396/360 Chevelle 100% of the time when racing. The stock shifter in my Chevelle was made for Chevy by Inland Steel. Most of the guys running these cars in my area pulled this shifter in favor of the Hurst Competition 4-Plus unit, but I liked the Inland Steel shifter and could shift faster with it that the Hurst, so I kept it. I could outshift most of my competition and rarely missed a shift with this unit.
Power shifting is basically speed shifting, only once you launch the car, your right foot stays in the throttle the whole race.. you do not lift off the throttle between shifts. Power shifting is VERY hard on the clutch, transmission, U-joints, rear end, and if you miss a shift or hang in neutral, the engine can suffer damage.. usually you'll just take it to valve float, though.
Bang shifting is like power shifting, only you don't use the clutch. This is the most severe method of shifting and requires some tranny work before you try it.. DON'T try it. By tranny work, some use to remove every other tooth on the synchros to facilitate this method of shifting.
Sure. There are basically three methods of shifting to employ in drag racing. I would like to emphasize here that I'm talking about street machines, not pro-stockers, funny cars, or AA/Fuelers. Also these street machines may or may not be modified, but for this discussion, I will be referring to American supercars of the mid-60's.
Speed shifting is nothing more than normal shifting, only you do it as fast as you can. This means you use the clutch and you let up on the throttle between shifts. But as I said, you do this VERY fast. You MUST have a strong shifter otherwise you risk damaging the one you have. If you do this correctly, you'll be amazed at how fast you can shift. I used this method in my '66 SS396/360 Chevelle 100% of the time when racing. The stock shifter in my Chevelle was made for Chevy by Inland Steel. Most of the guys running these cars in my area pulled this shifter in favor of the Hurst Competition 4-Plus unit, but I liked the Inland Steel shifter and could shift faster with it that the Hurst, so I kept it. I could outshift most of my competition and rarely missed a shift with this unit.
Power shifting is basically speed shifting, only once you launch the car, your right foot stays in the throttle the whole race.. you do not lift off the throttle between shifts. Power shifting is VERY hard on the clutch, transmission, U-joints, rear end, and if you miss a shift or hang in neutral, the engine can suffer damage.. usually you'll just take it to valve float, though.
Bang shifting is like power shifting, only you don't use the clutch. This is the most severe method of shifting and requires some tranny work before you try it.. DON'T try it. By tranny work, some use to remove every other tooth on the synchros to facilitate this method of shifting.
11-28-2004, 12:38 AM
#11
Quicker shifts...
You could try Comptech's "Short Shifter Kit" for about $50 + installation. I did not try it yet, but I'm concidering it. Has anyone tried the kit yet?
11-28-2004, 01:06 AM
#12
04 A-TL 6MT SSM/E N/Navi
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
To seamg;
Sure. There are basically three methods of shifting to employ in drag racing. I would like to emphasize here that I'm talking about street machines, not pro-stockers, funny cars, or AA/Fuelers. Also these street machines may or may not be modified, but for this discussion, I will be referring to American supercars of the mid-60's.
Speed shifting is nothing more than normal shifting, only you do it as fast as you can. This means you use the clutch and you let up on the throttle between shifts. But as I said, you do this VERY fast. You MUST have a strong shifter otherwise you risk damaging the one you have. If you do this correctly, you'll be amazed at how fast you can shift. I used this method in my '66 SS396/360 Chevelle 100% of the time when racing. The stock shifter in my Chevelle was made for Chevy by Inland Steel. Most of the guys running these cars in my area pulled this shifter in favor of the Hurst Competition 4-Plus unit, but I liked the Inland Steel shifter and could shift faster with it that the Hurst, so I kept it. I could outshift most of my competition and rarely missed a shift with this unit.
Power shifting is basically speed shifting, only once you launch the car, your right foot stays in the throttle the whole race.. you do not lift off the throttle between shifts. Power shifting is VERY hard on the clutch, transmission, U-joints, rear end, and if you miss a shift or hang in neutral, the engine can suffer damage.. usually you'll just take it to valve float, though.
Bang shifting is like power shifting, only you don't use the clutch. This is the most severe method of shifting and requires some tranny work before you try it.. DON'T try it. By tranny work, some use to remove every other tooth on the synchros to facilitate this method of shifting.
Sure. There are basically three methods of shifting to employ in drag racing. I would like to emphasize here that I'm talking about street machines, not pro-stockers, funny cars, or AA/Fuelers. Also these street machines may or may not be modified, but for this discussion, I will be referring to American supercars of the mid-60's.
Speed shifting is nothing more than normal shifting, only you do it as fast as you can. This means you use the clutch and you let up on the throttle between shifts. But as I said, you do this VERY fast. You MUST have a strong shifter otherwise you risk damaging the one you have. If you do this correctly, you'll be amazed at how fast you can shift. I used this method in my '66 SS396/360 Chevelle 100% of the time when racing. The stock shifter in my Chevelle was made for Chevy by Inland Steel. Most of the guys running these cars in my area pulled this shifter in favor of the Hurst Competition 4-Plus unit, but I liked the Inland Steel shifter and could shift faster with it that the Hurst, so I kept it. I could outshift most of my competition and rarely missed a shift with this unit.
Power shifting is basically speed shifting, only once you launch the car, your right foot stays in the throttle the whole race.. you do not lift off the throttle between shifts. Power shifting is VERY hard on the clutch, transmission, U-joints, rear end, and if you miss a shift or hang in neutral, the engine can suffer damage.. usually you'll just take it to valve float, though.
Bang shifting is like power shifting, only you don't use the clutch. This is the most severe method of shifting and requires some tranny work before you try it.. DON'T try it. By tranny work, some use to remove every other tooth on the synchros to facilitate this method of shifting.
My method of shifting is Speed shifting when I race with some body from light.
I don't wona kill my cluch & trainy.
11-28-2004, 02:35 AM
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So, Based on SouthernBoy's descriptions I've only ever used the Power Shifting method when racing the TL. I've found the shifter and driveline component to function very well with this method. Additionally, if I was to miss a shift the computer would prevent the over rev.
On another note, this car can be shifted without the clutch...just a couple of notes. It works best when using rev matching. 1-2 is very tricky to do smoothly. and never, ever, ever try it until the car is completely warmed up.
So, how do you properly shift without the clutch. Start off like normal, take first gear to 3500-4000 RPM. You have to have a negitive-load on the shifter to pull it out of gear....this is done by pulling on the shifter as you gently lift off the gas. this take pratice, and it's about feel. If you do it right, the shifter will come out of 1st very easily. As I said getting into 2nd is tricky. If you've gotten it out of 1st cleanly, the rev match will take a moment to drop the RPM to about 2500RPM, as you're waiting for that to happen you need to place the shifter against the 2nd gear gate. You need to being gently pressing against 2nd as the revs drop, at about 2500RPM the syncros will, well sync up allowing the shifter to drop into 2nd. The tricky part is that you have to apply a little gas as it drops in, or it will buck a little. As for the rest of the gears the ratio spacing is much better and dropping into the next gear is very smooth. you can use this process for 1st-5th...6th is an overdrive, and you must use the clutch.
BTW, you will grind the gears from time to time as you learn to do this. So you need to be sure not to try and force it into the next gear...as I said it's a feel thing.
Happy Shifting!
Wicked.
On another note, this car can be shifted without the clutch...just a couple of notes. It works best when using rev matching. 1-2 is very tricky to do smoothly. and never, ever, ever try it until the car is completely warmed up.
So, how do you properly shift without the clutch. Start off like normal, take first gear to 3500-4000 RPM. You have to have a negitive-load on the shifter to pull it out of gear....this is done by pulling on the shifter as you gently lift off the gas. this take pratice, and it's about feel. If you do it right, the shifter will come out of 1st very easily. As I said getting into 2nd is tricky. If you've gotten it out of 1st cleanly, the rev match will take a moment to drop the RPM to about 2500RPM, as you're waiting for that to happen you need to place the shifter against the 2nd gear gate. You need to being gently pressing against 2nd as the revs drop, at about 2500RPM the syncros will, well sync up allowing the shifter to drop into 2nd. The tricky part is that you have to apply a little gas as it drops in, or it will buck a little. As for the rest of the gears the ratio spacing is much better and dropping into the next gear is very smooth. you can use this process for 1st-5th...6th is an overdrive, and you must use the clutch.
BTW, you will grind the gears from time to time as you learn to do this. So you need to be sure not to try and force it into the next gear...as I said it's a feel thing.
Happy Shifting!
Wicked.
11-28-2004, 05:18 AM
#14
Guys, take it easy on your car, it's a sport sedan not a race car. I cringe every time I hear people treating their TL like a race car..it's not. I like my car, and would never consider abusing the car like you mention. Just my .02 cents.
11-28-2004, 07:31 AM
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I am also a MT newbie. However, I want to mention that when you "speed shift" it will not be as smooth as if you were shifting at a normal pace. I believe that was seamg's initial question. If someone can be as smooth at speed-shifting as shifting regularly, they are probably not shifting fast enough (at least from my understanding). In the TL, when you are shifting that fast, the revs don't drop enough to the appropriate level where you can let go of the clutch you get no jerks from the car (because it will be at the appropriate revs for the next gear). But when you speed shift, you are looking to reduce the time between shifts, not particularly focusing on smoothness.
I've never powershifted in my car, and I do not plan to. I think it is very tough on the car, from everything that I've researched about it, and on the street it might gain a miniscule amount compared to the damage I'm doing to my 30K car.
SouthernBoy: as usual, thanks for the explanations.
I've never powershifted in my car, and I do not plan to. I think it is very tough on the car, from everything that I've researched about it, and on the street it might gain a miniscule amount compared to the damage I'm doing to my 30K car.
SouthernBoy: as usual, thanks for the explanations.
11-28-2004, 08:01 AM
#16
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From the postings here, I suspect few if any of you have ever really done any drag racing with machinery made for that purpose.
This is not a flame or a put down, but simply an observation. I say this because the three methods of shifting which I descripted are common knowledge and two are commonly used in the sport of drag racing.. the most common for the weekend racer being power shifting.
Certainly when speed shifting the engine would have virtually no time at all for the RPMs to drop since your shift is completed usually in under 2/10ths of a second. The result is spinning the tires a bit when the clutch comes out because it comes out FAST. The whole shift should not take longer than a quarter of a second and preferrably less. I venture to say, I was shifting my Chevelle in well under 2/10ths of a second.
I would HIGHLY recommend against power shifting this or any other street driven FWD car. The parts are just not strong enough for this kind of continued abuse. DON'T DO THIS with this car. Use a variant of speed shifting (that is, not a full speed shift but rather slightly slower).
Bang shifting, as described, is shifting without using the clutch and with the throttle wide open the entire time. THIS IS THE MOST ABUSIVE AND DANGEROUS METHOD OF SHIFTING.
You definitely do not want to do this with the TL. You'll trash the tranny along with a lot of other things. This is a method I never used nor would I with my street machine. Heck, I only power shifted my '66 Chevelle one time, just to say I did. I could speed shift that car so well that I never had to power shift to win races (I only lost one with that car). Besides, it was my normal street driver.
In answer to WickedWiz's question about how you bang shift. Let's say your engine reaches maximum HP at 7000 RPM. You start pulling on the shifter some at around 6500 RPM. As the R's get close the 7000, you start pulling a lot more and soon after going beyond 7000, you'll pull the tranny out of gear because you'll overcome the force of the engine holding the transmission in gear. With synchro teeth shaved off, you'll be able to slam the gearbox into the next higher gear. VERY BAD FOR EVERYTHING AND I VENTURE TO SAY MOST DON'T DO THIS ON THE TRACK with their street machines.
Finally for seamg, I take it easy on my cars today. If I'm going to get it with another car from a stop light or such, I shift fast, but I don't speed shift like I used to because the shifters in these cars are not made as well as they were in the mid-60's and neither are the transmissions. So I shift pretty fast, but not what I would call speed shifting. But it's fast enough to break traction a little in second and third on the shift.
This is not a flame or a put down, but simply an observation. I say this because the three methods of shifting which I descripted are common knowledge and two are commonly used in the sport of drag racing.. the most common for the weekend racer being power shifting.
Certainly when speed shifting the engine would have virtually no time at all for the RPMs to drop since your shift is completed usually in under 2/10ths of a second. The result is spinning the tires a bit when the clutch comes out because it comes out FAST. The whole shift should not take longer than a quarter of a second and preferrably less. I venture to say, I was shifting my Chevelle in well under 2/10ths of a second.
I would HIGHLY recommend against power shifting this or any other street driven FWD car. The parts are just not strong enough for this kind of continued abuse. DON'T DO THIS with this car. Use a variant of speed shifting (that is, not a full speed shift but rather slightly slower).
Bang shifting, as described, is shifting without using the clutch and with the throttle wide open the entire time. THIS IS THE MOST ABUSIVE AND DANGEROUS METHOD OF SHIFTING.
You definitely do not want to do this with the TL. You'll trash the tranny along with a lot of other things. This is a method I never used nor would I with my street machine. Heck, I only power shifted my '66 Chevelle one time, just to say I did. I could speed shift that car so well that I never had to power shift to win races (I only lost one with that car). Besides, it was my normal street driver.
In answer to WickedWiz's question about how you bang shift. Let's say your engine reaches maximum HP at 7000 RPM. You start pulling on the shifter some at around 6500 RPM. As the R's get close the 7000, you start pulling a lot more and soon after going beyond 7000, you'll pull the tranny out of gear because you'll overcome the force of the engine holding the transmission in gear. With synchro teeth shaved off, you'll be able to slam the gearbox into the next higher gear. VERY BAD FOR EVERYTHING AND I VENTURE TO SAY MOST DON'T DO THIS ON THE TRACK with their street machines.
Finally for seamg, I take it easy on my cars today. If I'm going to get it with another car from a stop light or such, I shift fast, but I don't speed shift like I used to because the shifters in these cars are not made as well as they were in the mid-60's and neither are the transmissions. So I shift pretty fast, but not what I would call speed shifting. But it's fast enough to break traction a little in second and third on the shift.
11-28-2004, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PoochaKannInc
I am also a MT newbie. However, I want to mention that when you "speed shift" it will not be as smooth as if you were shifting at a normal pace. I believe that was seamg's initial question. If someone can be as smooth at speed-shifting as shifting regularly, they are probably not shifting fast enough (at least from my understanding). In the TL, when you are shifting that fast, the revs don't drop enough to the appropriate level where you can let go of the clutch you get no jerks from the car (because it will be at the appropriate revs for the next gear). But when you speed shift, you are looking to reduce the time between shifts, not particularly focusing on smoothness.
I've never powershifted in my car, and I do not plan to. I think it is very tough on the car, from everything that I've researched about it, and on the street it might gain a miniscule amount compared to the damage I'm doing to my 30K car.
SouthernBoy: as usual, thanks for the explanations.
I've never powershifted in my car, and I do not plan to. I think it is very tough on the car, from everything that I've researched about it, and on the street it might gain a miniscule amount compared to the damage I'm doing to my 30K car.
SouthernBoy: as usual, thanks for the explanations.
PoochaKannInc perfectely interprets my question once again and, SouthernBoy provides the perfect explanation once again! Thanks guys! I think the final analysis is as follows (correct me if I'm wrong/confirm if right): If you want smooth up-shifts, you must "rev match" which requires an extra .5 seconds or so for the revs to drop, this necessitates that you lose that .5 seconds in your overall "lap time" for the sake of smoothness. However, if you want to move faster, you must sacrifice smoothness for quicker clutch engagement and more rapid "lock up" for power delivery.
11-28-2004, 10:37 AM
#18
Registered Member
To seamg;
You're pretty much on target, but I would say that for "normal" driving, it takes longer than 1/2 a second for the RPMs to drop enough to rev-match the next higher gear.. more like several seconds.
Now as a final on the topic of speed shifting (I left this off of my last response). To I speed shifted my Chevelle, once I launched the car, I would poise my left foot JUST on the clutch pedal and when the time came to shift, I would stab the pedal all the way in and release as fast as I possibly could. While I was doing this, I was shifting to the next gear. This might give you some idea of the speed at which I was able to shift that car. Those cars were deliberately built for this kind of action.
You're pretty much on target, but I would say that for "normal" driving, it takes longer than 1/2 a second for the RPMs to drop enough to rev-match the next higher gear.. more like several seconds.
Now as a final on the topic of speed shifting (I left this off of my last response). To I speed shifted my Chevelle, once I launched the car, I would poise my left foot JUST on the clutch pedal and when the time came to shift, I would stab the pedal all the way in and release as fast as I possibly could. While I was doing this, I was shifting to the next gear. This might give you some idea of the speed at which I was able to shift that car. Those cars were deliberately built for this kind of action.
11-28-2004, 11:48 AM
#20
Registered Member
If by your statement, "would you say that the TL takes longer to rev-match than other MT cars?" you are referring to normal driving which constitutes normal shifting, then I'd say "yes" to some degree. The engine in my former car, a 2002 Altima SE, lost RPMs more quickly between shifts than the engine in my TL. However, the engine in my 2000 SVT Contour would actually gain RPMs, sometimes up to 1500 RPM between shifts. Ford explained that as being a feature, but in reality, it was done just like the rest of the companies.. to help burn off any fuel pudding in the intake manifold.
However, I find that when I am getting into it wiht my TL (that means going WOT), the Rs drop more quickly between shifts which is good because if I am of a mind to shift more aggressively (read that as fast), I don't want the engine to be slow about lossing RPMs.
But under normal driving conditions, I've found the best engine speeds within which to operate, so all is well here in Virginia.
However, I find that when I am getting into it wiht my TL (that means going WOT), the Rs drop more quickly between shifts which is good because if I am of a mind to shift more aggressively (read that as fast), I don't want the engine to be slow about lossing RPMs.
But under normal driving conditions, I've found the best engine speeds within which to operate, so all is well here in Virginia.
11-28-2004, 11:57 AM
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Thanks again SouthernBoy
....questions:
1. What is "WOT"?
2. What do you considter the optimal operating RPM range for the TL?
3. Does it make any sense to shift at higher than 5000 RPM?
....questions:
1. What is "WOT"?
2. What do you considter the optimal operating RPM range for the TL?
3. Does it make any sense to shift at higher than 5000 RPM?
11-28-2004, 01:46 PM
#22
Registered Member
To seamg;
#1 WOT = Wide Open Throttle
#2 This depends upon the instant situation at hand. Generally under normal conditions, I like to keep the engine somewhere between 2000 and 2500 RPM. But I emphasize that's for normal conditions.
#3 Only when you need the acceleration offered at those engine speeds. Otherwise, if it's normal driving, the answer to this is "no".
#1 WOT = Wide Open Throttle
#2 This depends upon the instant situation at hand. Generally under normal conditions, I like to keep the engine somewhere between 2000 and 2500 RPM. But I emphasize that's for normal conditions.
#3 Only when you need the acceleration offered at those engine speeds. Otherwise, if it's normal driving, the answer to this is "no".
11-28-2004, 04:58 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by JetJock
Guys, take it easy on your car, it's a sport sedan not a race car. I cringe every time I hear people treating their TL like a race car..it's not. I like my car, and would never consider abusing the car like you mention. Just my .02 cents.
If you practice a technique you can execute it without causing damage. I've driven many different MT cars/trucks under many different conditions for over 25 years. I spent the first 5000 miles in my TL learning how the drivetrain functions. Only under intense racing conditions do I shift without letting up on the gas petal, also I never push the clutch all the way in(under any condition)...it's just not needed, and slows your shifting.
When just driving under normal conditions I never use the clutch at all...again, it's just not needed with a fully syncro'd tranny.
Just my .02 cents, and 25 years of experience.
Wicked.
11-28-2004, 09:38 PM
#24
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To WickedWiz;
It's your car so you're certainly welcome to do as you please, but I have to tell you that you're off base about " never use the clutch at all...again, it's just not needed with a fully syncro'd tranny".
Synchronizers are not for shifting without the clutch at all, but rather for shift with the clutch and not having to rev-match. However, rev-matching, when done correctly, does increase clutch assembly and transmission life. Yes, I can shift without using a clutch and have when the need arises, which in 41 years of driving a manual, has only happened once that I can recall. I had no choice if I was going to get myself and three other people home and since I knew what I was doing, all worked out Ok.
But I HIGHLY recommend using the clutch whenever you shift. If you do it right and there are no exceptional situations, your clutch should last well into the 6-figure mileage range.
It's your car so you're certainly welcome to do as you please, but I have to tell you that you're off base about " never use the clutch at all...again, it's just not needed with a fully syncro'd tranny".
Synchronizers are not for shifting without the clutch at all, but rather for shift with the clutch and not having to rev-match. However, rev-matching, when done correctly, does increase clutch assembly and transmission life. Yes, I can shift without using a clutch and have when the need arises, which in 41 years of driving a manual, has only happened once that I can recall. I had no choice if I was going to get myself and three other people home and since I knew what I was doing, all worked out Ok.
But I HIGHLY recommend using the clutch whenever you shift. If you do it right and there are no exceptional situations, your clutch should last well into the 6-figure mileage range.
11-29-2004, 02:30 PM
#26
WOW..this thread is really interesting..seems like a lot of people are into drag racing...and I also was years ago...the smell of nitro still gets me excited, but I don't consider my TL a race car, so you guys go ahead and power shift away....I'll be the one up ahead in the right lane so watch out for me. j/k...I'm usually in the left lane trying to pass trucks before they kick up stones on my car.
11-29-2004, 08:20 PM
#30
Registered Member
To JetJock, Aegir, and PoochaKannInc;
An old adage in drag racing which you may or may not have ever heard, goes something like this;
"If you want to win, you have to drive it like you're trying to break it."
All well and good, but I can't do this to my street car. I drove my '66 Chevelle harder than any of my other cars (in terms of racing, that is), but that car and ones like it at the time were built for that kind of thing. Car companies weren't stupid. They knew perfectly well who was buying the supercars and what was being done with them and it wasn't taking Grandma to the grocery store. Another old adage;
"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday."
I'm afraid the TL wouldn't stand an ice cube's chance in hell if it were driven like we used to drive those machines in the 60's.
So, like y'all, I'll have my fun carefully and cautiously so as not to tear the thing up. And you something.. I'll be smiling all the while.
An old adage in drag racing which you may or may not have ever heard, goes something like this;
"If you want to win, you have to drive it like you're trying to break it."
All well and good, but I can't do this to my street car. I drove my '66 Chevelle harder than any of my other cars (in terms of racing, that is), but that car and ones like it at the time were built for that kind of thing. Car companies weren't stupid. They knew perfectly well who was buying the supercars and what was being done with them and it wasn't taking Grandma to the grocery store. Another old adage;
"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday."
I'm afraid the TL wouldn't stand an ice cube's chance in hell if it were driven like we used to drive those machines in the 60's.
So, like y'all, I'll have my fun carefully and cautiously so as not to tear the thing up. And you something.. I'll be smiling all the while.
11-30-2004, 12:25 AM
#31
Team Nghthwk Whipping Boy
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...and I hope you all got the extended warranty! 
After reading SouthernBoy's post last night, I did a little research. I found a website that an BMW M5 owner created. It has some "instructional" videos the guy made...I think they'd be good review for the MT novices among us (and a good refresher for us "know-it-alls").
Here's the link to his text:
http://www.bmwm5.com/greg/school/
and the direct link to the videos:
http://www.vidload.de/script/kategor...&sort=filename
Wicked.
P.S. I also found a post about a tranny that was shifted clutchlessly...even though the technique was done "perfectly" during the life of the tranny, when the tranny was taken apart the teeth on all of the gears had indications of rounding. Based on this, I won't be shifting clutchlessly any longer.
As for Power Shifting...the rule of thumb I came across is "if you don't have a rev limiter, don't do it". Since the TL does have a rev limiter, I'll still be doing this technique....but, only when necessary.
After reading SouthernBoy's post last night, I did a little research. I found a website that an BMW M5 owner created. It has some "instructional" videos the guy made...I think they'd be good review for the MT novices among us (and a good refresher for us "know-it-alls").
Here's the link to his text:
http://www.bmwm5.com/greg/school/
and the direct link to the videos:
http://www.vidload.de/script/kategor...&sort=filename
Wicked.
P.S. I also found a post about a tranny that was shifted clutchlessly...even though the technique was done "perfectly" during the life of the tranny, when the tranny was taken apart the teeth on all of the gears had indications of rounding. Based on this, I won't be shifting clutchlessly any longer.
As for Power Shifting...the rule of thumb I came across is "if you don't have a rev limiter, don't do it". Since the TL does have a rev limiter, I'll still be doing this technique....but, only when necessary.
11-30-2004, 01:38 AM
#32
Gearhead
Keep in mind that when you see road tests of MT cars they don't normally baby the gearbox. Often you will find that a 5AT car will be a similar MT car UNLESS the driver is willing to abuse his car for the sake of winning.
Just to add more historical perspective to SouthernBoy's comments as we might be from the same area, Muncie used to have a gearbox called the "rock cruncher". You can only guess how it got that name. It was a darn near indestructible tranny.
Also keep in mind why many super fast cars have tranny shields. If you have ever had a tranny blow you will know why it is nice to have that little ballistic shield between you and a clutch or tranny that came apart at high rpm!
Don't forget the double clutch style of shifting that can help you save wear on your syncros too. This has also helped me keep my WRX tranny from blowing itself all over the place. When done properly this can be quite fast allowing you to match revs more quickly and save wear on the syncros which normally take a lot of abuse in speed shifting. If you hurry the syncros your tranny WILL wear prematurely. Even supposedly self healing syncros can't compenesate for everything.
Just to add more historical perspective to SouthernBoy's comments as we might be from the same area, Muncie used to have a gearbox called the "rock cruncher". You can only guess how it got that name. It was a darn near indestructible tranny.
Also keep in mind why many super fast cars have tranny shields. If you have ever had a tranny blow you will know why it is nice to have that little ballistic shield between you and a clutch or tranny that came apart at high rpm!
Don't forget the double clutch style of shifting that can help you save wear on your syncros too. This has also helped me keep my WRX tranny from blowing itself all over the place. When done properly this can be quite fast allowing you to match revs more quickly and save wear on the syncros which normally take a lot of abuse in speed shifting. If you hurry the syncros your tranny WILL wear prematurely. Even supposedly self healing syncros can't compenesate for everything.
11-30-2004, 04:55 PM
#33
Registered Member
To wavshrdr;
The Muncie "Rockcrusher" transmission you referred to was the M22. This box had straight cut gears and was made to handle engines producing roughly 1300-1400 lb/ft of torque. It was the standard transmission shipped in the 1966 SS396/375 L78 Chevelle, the 1966 427/450 L74 Corvette, and the 1967+ 427/430 L88 Corvette among a few others. Arguably the best manual transmission ever released to the public in production machines.
Double clutching when upshifting is not recommended however, when downshifting, this is a definite plus method.
I have found that the various magazines and TV shows that road test cars, do so in differing ways. For example, MotorWeek most definitely does not do any kind of serious shifting.. at least in the videos they show. You just ain't gonna get good times doing this. But when the cameras are not rolling, who knows? How could they have gotten a 0-60 in 5.9 seconds for a stock 2002 Altima SE with a quarter mile in 14.4 seconds at 100 MPH? They had to have been shifting more aggressively fo those times.
Scatter shields are a MUST if you are doing any kind of serious racing with your car. I've seen a number of clutches blow and you're right.. you don't want to have that happen without one.
To WickedWiz;
I just took a quite look at one of the websites you supplied and saw either an error or a BMW design problem. The writer said, "Taking your foot all the way off the clutch pedal does not mean the clutch is hooked up! "
I have to tell you that if this is the case with an M5, don't buy one! 'Cause this just ain't the way it's supposed to work. When you have fully released the clutch pedal, you'd better have full and complete engagement, otherwise you have a real problem on your hands. I'll read some more when I can find the time.. this could be interesting.
Oh, he also said something else that made me pause.
"Asking the clutch to transfer the engine's full power while it is still slipping produces a lot of heat in a hurry. This heat will quickly destroy a clutch. Proper launch and shift technique requires you, the driver to ensure the clutch is fully engaged, or "hooked up" before your right foot commands the engine to produce significant power. "
In a drag race, this is exactly what you are doing.. slipping the clutch while going full throttle. I used to come out of the hole in my 1966 SS 396/360 L34 Chevelle at 3000 RPM and slip the clutch for maybe 15 or twenty feet while nailing the throttle. The tires would burn a little for the time I was slipping the clutch, but not badly. Traction came pretty quick with the 10" Mickey Thompsons. Also, the GM supercars of that era came with traction bars and the weight transfer was excellent. Anyway, when I sold the car at 83,000 miles, it still had the original clutch and the original brake linings (they were good for over 100,000 miles). And the car would still break traction in all four gears.. the clutch was tight and true. But then again, those cars had far better clutches and transmissions than an M5 I would venture.
The Muncie "Rockcrusher" transmission you referred to was the M22. This box had straight cut gears and was made to handle engines producing roughly 1300-1400 lb/ft of torque. It was the standard transmission shipped in the 1966 SS396/375 L78 Chevelle, the 1966 427/450 L74 Corvette, and the 1967+ 427/430 L88 Corvette among a few others. Arguably the best manual transmission ever released to the public in production machines.
Double clutching when upshifting is not recommended however, when downshifting, this is a definite plus method.
I have found that the various magazines and TV shows that road test cars, do so in differing ways. For example, MotorWeek most definitely does not do any kind of serious shifting.. at least in the videos they show. You just ain't gonna get good times doing this. But when the cameras are not rolling, who knows? How could they have gotten a 0-60 in 5.9 seconds for a stock 2002 Altima SE with a quarter mile in 14.4 seconds at 100 MPH? They had to have been shifting more aggressively fo those times.
Scatter shields are a MUST if you are doing any kind of serious racing with your car. I've seen a number of clutches blow and you're right.. you don't want to have that happen without one.
To WickedWiz;
I just took a quite look at one of the websites you supplied and saw either an error or a BMW design problem. The writer said, "Taking your foot all the way off the clutch pedal does not mean the clutch is hooked up! "
I have to tell you that if this is the case with an M5, don't buy one! 'Cause this just ain't the way it's supposed to work. When you have fully released the clutch pedal, you'd better have full and complete engagement, otherwise you have a real problem on your hands. I'll read some more when I can find the time.. this could be interesting.
Oh, he also said something else that made me pause.
"Asking the clutch to transfer the engine's full power while it is still slipping produces a lot of heat in a hurry. This heat will quickly destroy a clutch. Proper launch and shift technique requires you, the driver to ensure the clutch is fully engaged, or "hooked up" before your right foot commands the engine to produce significant power. "
In a drag race, this is exactly what you are doing.. slipping the clutch while going full throttle. I used to come out of the hole in my 1966 SS 396/360 L34 Chevelle at 3000 RPM and slip the clutch for maybe 15 or twenty feet while nailing the throttle. The tires would burn a little for the time I was slipping the clutch, but not badly. Traction came pretty quick with the 10" Mickey Thompsons. Also, the GM supercars of that era came with traction bars and the weight transfer was excellent. Anyway, when I sold the car at 83,000 miles, it still had the original clutch and the original brake linings (they were good for over 100,000 miles). And the car would still break traction in all four gears.. the clutch was tight and true. But then again, those cars had far better clutches and transmissions than an M5 I would venture.
11-30-2004, 05:16 PM
#34
Registered Member
Ok, I reviewed the video but still have to read his article. The video is good and shows what I have been doing for 40 years.
But I'm still worried about the clutch on the M5.. hope it's not a weak unit.
But I'm still worried about the clutch on the M5.. hope it's not a weak unit.
11-30-2004, 07:08 PM
#35
Gearhead
SouthernBoy- the syncro's on my Subie aren't great so the only way to get it to do a quick 1->2 shift without grinding a pound of Subie syncros is to double clutch on the upshift without blipping the throttle like on a downshift. Anyother way causes it to graunch like you wouldn't believe. I've tried every type of lube known to man and it's a chronic problem with these cars. Make the lube too slick and the syncros don't work as there needs to be a little bit of friction. I know it may sound strange but that is the only way I've found to shift it more quickly that the very tedious slow normal method. The revs seem to drop more quicly this way.
The entire reasons trannies have syncros is to try and match the speed of the input shaft from the motor (which is the same speed as the motor when the clutch is engaged) to the speed of the gearshafts in the gear box. If you could perefectly match the revs between shifts there would be no need for syncros. Rev matching is how it was done before syncros anyway and by learning this technique you can save lots of wear and tear on a gearbox.
I once was competing in a TSD rally when my clutch master cylinder failed on my Mazda. I had to finish the event without using the clutch for the next 3 hours.
The entire reasons trannies have syncros is to try and match the speed of the input shaft from the motor (which is the same speed as the motor when the clutch is engaged) to the speed of the gearshafts in the gear box. If you could perefectly match the revs between shifts there would be no need for syncros. Rev matching is how it was done before syncros anyway and by learning this technique you can save lots of wear and tear on a gearbox.
I once was competing in a TSD rally when my clutch master cylinder failed on my Mazda. I had to finish the event without using the clutch for the next 3 hours.
12-03-2004, 11:14 AM
#36
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York, NY
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Southernboy,
With regards to the videos of the M5, is it better to use the double-clutch downshift method or the single-clutch downshifting method? Which method would cause less wear?
With regards to the videos of the M5, is it better to use the double-clutch downshift method or the single-clutch downshifting method? Which method would cause less wear?
12-03-2004, 12:12 PM
#37
Seamg and SouthernBoy –
A couple quick thoughts – SothernBoy has it about 99.9% right. I my experience though, he should have been driving Mopars. My Hurst 4-speed Plymouth was very quick – especially the 2-3 shift, which happened by pushing forward and right at the same time. And you just let your foot slip off the side of the clutch to get it to re-engage quicker. It wasn’t smooth, but it wasn’t supposed to be.
Also, has anyone tried to replace a clutch and pressure plate in a TL? I think its going to much harder than an afternoon job in the driveway. We used to do it by disconnecting the drive shaft and dropping the transmission. Now it looks like a complete engine/transmission pull. That won’t happen at your home, only at the dealer.
These cars now cost well over 10 times more than a 60’s muscle car did new. They are going to be very expensive to fix when abused. The drive line in a TL is not built for the shock of hard shifting nor is it built for easy repair. Remember, this driving style was done to keep the engine in its power band and to keep the power going to the wheels.
And like many others have already said, you DO NOT want to in a car when the clutch lets go. I’ve seen it and very bad things happen to the people on the inside. Can you image shrapnel going through your foot and leg?
A couple quick thoughts – SothernBoy has it about 99.9% right. I my experience though, he should have been driving Mopars. My Hurst 4-speed Plymouth was very quick – especially the 2-3 shift, which happened by pushing forward and right at the same time. And you just let your foot slip off the side of the clutch to get it to re-engage quicker. It wasn’t smooth, but it wasn’t supposed to be.
Also, has anyone tried to replace a clutch and pressure plate in a TL? I think its going to much harder than an afternoon job in the driveway. We used to do it by disconnecting the drive shaft and dropping the transmission. Now it looks like a complete engine/transmission pull. That won’t happen at your home, only at the dealer.
These cars now cost well over 10 times more than a 60’s muscle car did new. They are going to be very expensive to fix when abused. The drive line in a TL is not built for the shock of hard shifting nor is it built for easy repair. Remember, this driving style was done to keep the engine in its power band and to keep the power going to the wheels.
And like many others have already said, you DO NOT want to in a car when the clutch lets go. I’ve seen it and very bad things happen to the people on the inside. Can you image shrapnel going through your foot and leg?
12-03-2004, 12:30 PM
#38
Team Anthracite Member
SouthernBoy, quick question. In many places you said the shifter in the TL isn't strong enough. When you say that, do you mean the actually shift shaft not being thick enough/made of strong enough steel? Or do you mean the linkage to the transmission or do you mean the transmission itself? Just curious...
12-03-2004, 08:23 PM
#39
Registered Member
To wills822;
What the video calls "double-clutch" downshift (it actually is this, really) is the preferred method for the least amount of wear to ALL components of the clutch assembly and transmission. If you read my post of how to properly operate a manual transmission, you'll see I refer to this method redundantly.
To bobt;
I remember the Mopars of the mid-60s, but I was not a fan of their shifters. I never owned a Mopar. Question: were their 4-speeds available in close ratio like the Muncie M21 and M22 units? Also, what year and model was your Plymouth and what engine were you running in it? As for your statement, "especially the 2-3 shift, which happened by pushing forward and right at the same time".. that is precisely how I shifted my Chevelle. The Inland shifter was perfect for this shift.. better, in my opinion, than the Hurst Comp 4 unit. Anyway, it looks like you and I have some similar experiences in our past.
To zax123;
Comparing a cable-operated shifter to one of the older, linkage types is like comparing oranges to apples. Hurst had a standing policy that said if you could break one of their shifters, they would replace it free of charge. I suspect that if you were to feed a steady diet of perfomance shifting the TL like I and my friends did with the cars of the 60s, you would break several parts of the shifter in short order.
"Or do you mean the linkage to the transmission or do you mean the transmission itself?" No, just the shifter and its parts. I've seen the shifter on the 2002 Altima SE and it's just not as strong as what we had back then. I'd be afraid to throw my body into a shift with something like that. And the TL shifter is too short to get a really good hold on it for serious work.
What the video calls "double-clutch" downshift (it actually is this, really) is the preferred method for the least amount of wear to ALL components of the clutch assembly and transmission. If you read my post of how to properly operate a manual transmission, you'll see I refer to this method redundantly.
To bobt;
I remember the Mopars of the mid-60s, but I was not a fan of their shifters. I never owned a Mopar. Question: were their 4-speeds available in close ratio like the Muncie M21 and M22 units? Also, what year and model was your Plymouth and what engine were you running in it? As for your statement, "especially the 2-3 shift, which happened by pushing forward and right at the same time".. that is precisely how I shifted my Chevelle. The Inland shifter was perfect for this shift.. better, in my opinion, than the Hurst Comp 4 unit. Anyway, it looks like you and I have some similar experiences in our past.
To zax123;
Comparing a cable-operated shifter to one of the older, linkage types is like comparing oranges to apples. Hurst had a standing policy that said if you could break one of their shifters, they would replace it free of charge. I suspect that if you were to feed a steady diet of perfomance shifting the TL like I and my friends did with the cars of the 60s, you would break several parts of the shifter in short order.
"Or do you mean the linkage to the transmission or do you mean the transmission itself?" No, just the shifter and its parts. I've seen the shifter on the 2002 Altima SE and it's just not as strong as what we had back then. I'd be afraid to throw my body into a shift with something like that. And the TL shifter is too short to get a really good hold on it for serious work.
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