Are these brakes a good deal?
#41
**The Catfish**
iTrader: (11)
ss lines are a huge waste for the street.. I have never had a rubber line rupture on my and have had an ss line rupture. really scary trust me.
#43
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
The brembos can get plenty hot enough on the street to warrant both ss lines and drilled/slotted rotors.
Don't forget, this is an enthusiast website.
Don't forget, this is an enthusiast website.
#44
ss lines are a huge waste for the street.. I have never had a rubber line rupture on my and have had an ss line rupture. really scary trust me.
#45
**The Catfish**
iTrader: (11)
first of all, they are at least 10x better than oem.
lets examine this for a second, the braking surface is less, however the blank rotors are more prone to warping because they do not disperse heat nearly as effeciently as the drilled/slotted rotors.
second, there is less of a bite that the pads can get on the rotors... with the drilled/slotted rotors, there is more bite therefore, better stopping power. i can tell you from expreience that these pads and rotors are far superior to the stock brembo blanks for braking, with exponentially less dust, and best of all, they look 100x better than the rusted sh** that stock blanks are known for
lets examine this for a second, the braking surface is less, however the blank rotors are more prone to warping because they do not disperse heat nearly as effeciently as the drilled/slotted rotors.
second, there is less of a bite that the pads can get on the rotors... with the drilled/slotted rotors, there is more bite therefore, better stopping power. i can tell you from expreience that these pads and rotors are far superior to the stock brembo blanks for braking, with exponentially less dust, and best of all, they look 100x better than the rusted sh** that stock blanks are known for
#46
**The Catfish**
iTrader: (11)
had them on my car for a months now and havent had one complaint. they still stop like the first day and Im sure sharksbreath will chime in here in a minute, hes had them on his car for even longer than I and he brags on how great they are.
#47
Vented rotors make use of this by increasing the surface area and airflow and directionally vented rotors are even more effective. A vented or directionally vented rotor acts in a similar fashion to an impeller blade/wheel (like a turbo compressor or hairdryer). The spinning action forces air outwards from the center and it induces airflow through the rotor with cold air being sucked in at the center and the hot air being flung out the edges. Vented rotors dissipate heat much better than non-vented rotors and directionally vented rotors improve the effectiveness.
Crossdrilling on the other hand does NOT show appreciable cooling differences when in use. They will help cool the rotor qucker when the car is stopped and sitting but they actually REDUCE the heat capacity of the braking system when the car is being driven hard maing the brakes actually run a little hotter. So you're thinking, "Wait a minute,... say what? If increasing surface area means better heat dissipation, then more holes means more surface area, so it should help at least a bit right?" Wrong.
The crossdrilled holes do not act the same as the vented passages in the rotor. The venting is radial to the rotation and draws air through the vanes. the cross drilled holes are axial to rotation. The difference in airflow when you're blowing through a straw (the vented vanes) as opposed to blowing across the hole of the straw is huge. Now you're thinking, yeah, but they use devices like paint guns that work by drawing paint out of the bottle by blowing compressed air over the thin tube. Well, you're talking about Bernoulli's principle here.
Fast moving air has lower pressure than slow moving or stagnant air. The fast moving air over the tube is at lower pressure than the air in the spray gun bottle so the higher pressure pushes paint out and Voila, you're apinting your car/house/whatever. The principle doesn't work when the air is moving fast over both ends of the tube (in this case, the hole drilled through the rotor. There is no significant airflow through those holes when the rotor is spinning and any airflow is FAR less tha the airflow through the vanes in a vented rotor. Ah... now you see,... but wait, wasn't there a mention of higher temps due to cross-drilling? Even if the airflow is minimal in the drilled holes, why would it cause higher temps? Because it reduces the mass of the rotor, thus reducing it's capacity for absorbing heat.
What happens when you use your brakes hard? Well the brakes get hot obviously. But what would a brake rotor temperature chart look like? Well, upon first application of the brakes, the temp rise is very rapid and increase as long as the brakes are applied and the wheels are still turning (friction still producing more heat). then when you let off the brakes, the temps level out and start to drop. They drop faster if the car is stil moving since there's more air flowing over the rotors, but they don't completely cool off that rapidly. if you're driving hard and braking a lot, the rotors never cool off, but each subsequent braking event adds more heat to the rotor potentially before it can dissipate it. This is where rotor size and thermal capacity comes in.
if you plan on driving hard and doing a lot of hard braking, you need to make sure you have enough rotor mass to absorb all that heat because if you don't, you could exceed the thermal capacity of the rotors to act as heatsinks. When that happens, your rotors simply can't dissipate the heat as fast as you're putting them into the rotors and since any guven material of a set mass has a specific thermal capacity, once you reach this point, the rotor cannot efficiently absorb the heat anymore and the brake rotor and pad temperatures will rise very rapidly with each application of the brakes. The temps shoot up fast and high enough to easily exceed the MOT (maximum operating temp) of the brake pads and you get pad fade. You can also get things so hot that it boils the brake fluid in the calipers and this is also where it's possible to actually warp rotors. You can identify a rotor that has really been warped. It changes color. You'll see a bluish boundary somwhere between the rotor and hat as the heat at that point changes the molecular structure of the metal. The heat stress is visible.
Cross-drilling = less mass, = less capacity to absorb heat before this point is reached. when you're running close to the edge of the thermal capacity, the brake system will be consistently a little hotter because it's easier to push the system with less mass and thermal capacity over the edge.
There's also the problem that cross-drilling causes stress risers on the rotors. coupled with the thermal expansion that occurs during braking and repeated hard use, the holes make it much easier to develop deep stress cracks in the rotors. There's a reason NO race team that uses iron rotors has cross-drilled rotors. They use either plain or slotted rotors. The cross-drilling simply reduces the thermal capacity AND weakens the rotor courting the possibility of failure from stress cracks actually leading to a fragged rotor.
Crossdrilling on the other hand does NOT show appreciable cooling differences when in use. They will help cool the rotor qucker when the car is stopped and sitting but they actually REDUCE the heat capacity of the braking system when the car is being driven hard maing the brakes actually run a little hotter. So you're thinking, "Wait a minute,... say what? If increasing surface area means better heat dissipation, then more holes means more surface area, so it should help at least a bit right?" Wrong.
The crossdrilled holes do not act the same as the vented passages in the rotor. The venting is radial to the rotation and draws air through the vanes. the cross drilled holes are axial to rotation. The difference in airflow when you're blowing through a straw (the vented vanes) as opposed to blowing across the hole of the straw is huge. Now you're thinking, yeah, but they use devices like paint guns that work by drawing paint out of the bottle by blowing compressed air over the thin tube. Well, you're talking about Bernoulli's principle here.
Fast moving air has lower pressure than slow moving or stagnant air. The fast moving air over the tube is at lower pressure than the air in the spray gun bottle so the higher pressure pushes paint out and Voila, you're apinting your car/house/whatever. The principle doesn't work when the air is moving fast over both ends of the tube (in this case, the hole drilled through the rotor. There is no significant airflow through those holes when the rotor is spinning and any airflow is FAR less tha the airflow through the vanes in a vented rotor. Ah... now you see,... but wait, wasn't there a mention of higher temps due to cross-drilling? Even if the airflow is minimal in the drilled holes, why would it cause higher temps? Because it reduces the mass of the rotor, thus reducing it's capacity for absorbing heat.
What happens when you use your brakes hard? Well the brakes get hot obviously. But what would a brake rotor temperature chart look like? Well, upon first application of the brakes, the temp rise is very rapid and increase as long as the brakes are applied and the wheels are still turning (friction still producing more heat). then when you let off the brakes, the temps level out and start to drop. They drop faster if the car is stil moving since there's more air flowing over the rotors, but they don't completely cool off that rapidly. if you're driving hard and braking a lot, the rotors never cool off, but each subsequent braking event adds more heat to the rotor potentially before it can dissipate it. This is where rotor size and thermal capacity comes in.
if you plan on driving hard and doing a lot of hard braking, you need to make sure you have enough rotor mass to absorb all that heat because if you don't, you could exceed the thermal capacity of the rotors to act as heatsinks. When that happens, your rotors simply can't dissipate the heat as fast as you're putting them into the rotors and since any guven material of a set mass has a specific thermal capacity, once you reach this point, the rotor cannot efficiently absorb the heat anymore and the brake rotor and pad temperatures will rise very rapidly with each application of the brakes. The temps shoot up fast and high enough to easily exceed the MOT (maximum operating temp) of the brake pads and you get pad fade. You can also get things so hot that it boils the brake fluid in the calipers and this is also where it's possible to actually warp rotors. You can identify a rotor that has really been warped. It changes color. You'll see a bluish boundary somwhere between the rotor and hat as the heat at that point changes the molecular structure of the metal. The heat stress is visible.
Cross-drilling = less mass, = less capacity to absorb heat before this point is reached. when you're running close to the edge of the thermal capacity, the brake system will be consistently a little hotter because it's easier to push the system with less mass and thermal capacity over the edge.
There's also the problem that cross-drilling causes stress risers on the rotors. coupled with the thermal expansion that occurs during braking and repeated hard use, the holes make it much easier to develop deep stress cracks in the rotors. There's a reason NO race team that uses iron rotors has cross-drilled rotors. They use either plain or slotted rotors. The cross-drilling simply reduces the thermal capacity AND weakens the rotor courting the possibility of failure from stress cracks actually leading to a fragged rotor.
#48
Without data I don't think you can say they stop better than stock.
#49
**The Catfish**
iTrader: (11)
you can believe what you want. Without experiencing these brakes on your car you wont know. im not going to get out a tape measure and take down how long it takes me to stop, go home, put on the blanks and go do it again. I can tell you that there is a huge improvement over stock blanks because i know how my car stopped before vs. now. there is a whole thread talking about this exact thing with plenty of others that have bought the same kit and have experienced the same thing.
to all who are debating buying this kit, it is well worth the money for functionality and cosmetics. for the price Sean (BrakeMotive) is selling them for, how could you go wrong.
to all who are debating buying this kit, it is well worth the money for functionality and cosmetics. for the price Sean (BrakeMotive) is selling them for, how could you go wrong.
#50
BANNED
iTrader: (33)
i'm more than satisfied with the quality of these rotors/pads. i think brakemotive is able to sell these so cheap because he bought pallets full of these and got a discounted cost.
are there better packages out there? sure. but for $150 for 4 D/S rotors and ceramic pads...i'll take it.
#51
you can believe what you want. Without experiencing these brakes on your car you wont know. im not going to get out a tape measure and take down how long it takes me to stop, go home, put on the blanks and go do it again. I can tell you that there is a huge improvement over stock blanks because i know how my car stopped before vs. now. there is a whole thread talking about this exact thing with plenty of others that have bought the same kit and have experienced the same thing.
to all who are debating buying this kit, it is well worth the money for functionality and cosmetics. for the price Sean (BrakeMotive) is selling them for, how could you go wrong.
to all who are debating buying this kit, it is well worth the money for functionality and cosmetics. for the price Sean (BrakeMotive) is selling them for, how could you go wrong.
#52
**The Catfish**
iTrader: (11)
![Racing](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/racing.gif)
#53
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Ok, we all know more surface generally equates to better braking. Thus, drilled rotors are mostly for show.
But curved veins? Not so much.
But curved veins? Not so much.
#54
i dont ignore the "facts" just to do it. I found a good set of pads and rotors for a great price and went with it. Im not basing my side of the argument on articles i read on the internet (there are articles and "facts" to support both sides), im basing my side of the argument on personal experience. The car stops faster and cosmetically look better than the stock rusted blanks. ![Racing](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/racing.gif)
![Racing](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/racing.gif)
I challenge you to find any reputable source that claims merely drilling your rotors will decrease stopping distance. You will however get less structural integrity and poorer heat dissipation.
I would also like to mention again that you're going to have a hard time finding a shop that will turn drilled rotors potentially costing you more money in the end.
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#55
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WTF guys. vr6, learn to multiquote. Second, don't tell us that they're "overkill and worse", those conflict each other right there. Third, unless you've tested out the brake package and have valuable info for us to BELIEVE, GTFO. And lastly, if drilled and slotted rotors don't do shit, then why do professional racing teams use them?
/thread, pretty sure OP got his answer within the first few posts.
/thread, pretty sure OP got his answer within the first few posts.
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#56
WTF guys. vr6, learn to multiquote. Second, don't tell us that they're "overkill and worse", those conflict each other right there. Third, unless you've tested out the brake package and have valuable info for us to BELIEVE, GTFO. And lastly, if drilled and slotted rotors don't do shit, then why do professional racing teams use them?
/thread, pretty sure OP got his answer within the first few posts.
/thread, pretty sure OP got his answer within the first few posts.
About your second point, I don't need to install the brake package to know they won't help braking distances one single bit. The stock brakes can overpower (lock-up) street tires. What good is putting "better" brakes on?
Your third point, racing teams drill LARGE rotors to reduce rotating mass and unsprung weight. Additionally, modern F1 cars don't have drilled OR slotted brakes. What does that tell you?
#57
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I never said they but Brakemotive packages on racing cars. Regardless, the info you're posting doesn't concern anyone, the people with the Brakemotive package bought them for looks, guaranteed, and if they stop just as good if not better then so be it. We don't need you to shove shit down our throat telling us our $150 brakes are worthless. The OP was asking a simple question and he got an answer, if you'd like to continue knowing everything about brakes, move it to another thread.
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#58
Moderator
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![](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5109/5663369070_1a2bb00a24_z.jpg)
#59
I never said they but Brakemotive packages on racing cars. Regardless, the info you're posting doesn't concern anyone, the people with the Brakemotive package bought them for looks, guaranteed, and if they stop just as good if not better then so be it. We don't need you to shove shit down our throat telling us our $150 brakes are worthless. The OP was asking a simple question and he got an answer, if you'd like to continue knowing everything about brakes, move it to another thread.
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#63
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#70
#71
A6 and TL
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No reason to attack vr6vdub. He posted information that is valuable to anyone considering purchasing brakes....not sure why everyone is getting so jumpy. Like said before, this is website for enthusiasts, we share our research/knowledge with others, and vr6vdub was sharing his research that he had done on the brakes.
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#73
well no matter what at the end its your money your car so it dont really matter what anyone says. I mean i might come on to ask if anyone like a brand if they dont I still will get it
..
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#74
Racer
So........ According to vr6vdub....
Mercedes is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/mercedes.jpg)
Lexus is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/lexusbrakes.jpg)
Lamborghini is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/lambo.jpg)
Ferrari is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/Ferrari_Carbon_Ceramic_Brakes.jpg)
and BMW is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/BMWM5.jpg)
I have had my brakemotive brakes for about a year and a half now and all I can say is...
I LOVE MY BRAKEMOTIVE BRAKES
Mercedes is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/mercedes.jpg)
Lexus is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/lexusbrakes.jpg)
Lamborghini is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/lambo.jpg)
Ferrari is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/Ferrari_Carbon_Ceramic_Brakes.jpg)
and BMW is doing it wrong...
![](http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/jonboy10/BMWM5.jpg)
I have had my brakemotive brakes for about a year and a half now and all I can say is...
I LOVE MY BRAKEMOTIVE BRAKES
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#75
Chapter Leader (San Antonio)
iTrader: (3)
No reason to attack vr6vdub. He posted information that is valuable to anyone considering purchasing brakes....not sure why everyone is getting so jumpy. Like said before, this is website for enthusiasts, we share our research/knowledge with others, and vr6vdub was sharing his research that he had done on the brakes.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
Nonetheless, they're decent breaks (Brakemotive) and I rarely see any complaints. It is almost like comparing Chinese quality steel and American quality steel. Chinese quality steel usually blows, but at times, it can be as good as American grade. Like this situation, usually, a cheaper brand brake package means lesser quality in rotors and pads. Thankfully, not in this case.
#76
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^i agree.
i think there was a misunderstanding. someone said my brakemotive brakes stop better than OEM. vr6 argued that statement with factual information.
the brakemotive package probably "stops better" because your OEM rotors/pads were at the end of their life cycle and you slapped on some shiny new D/S rotors and beefy pads and were wow'd by the change in stopping distance. makes sense.
i know when i changed mine out, i also flushed the brake fluid and for sure felt an increase in stopping power. new rotors/new pads/new fluid...of course it's going to feel good.
nonetheless, these are nice rotors for what its worth. mine are still shiny to this day and stopping power is fantastic.
i think there was a misunderstanding. someone said my brakemotive brakes stop better than OEM. vr6 argued that statement with factual information.
the brakemotive package probably "stops better" because your OEM rotors/pads were at the end of their life cycle and you slapped on some shiny new D/S rotors and beefy pads and were wow'd by the change in stopping distance. makes sense.
i know when i changed mine out, i also flushed the brake fluid and for sure felt an increase in stopping power. new rotors/new pads/new fluid...of course it's going to feel good.
nonetheless, these are nice rotors for what its worth. mine are still shiny to this day and stopping power is fantastic.
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#77
Racer
Despite what is right and what is wrong and what increases heat and what decreases heat, the big companies still use them.
Whether it is to save weight or reduce heat, they still use them. I know that what he copied to this site includes some great information, but if some of the biggest names in the super-car business use drilled and/or slotted rotors, then I will too.
Whether it is to save weight or reduce heat, they still use them. I know that what he copied to this site includes some great information, but if some of the biggest names in the super-car business use drilled and/or slotted rotors, then I will too.
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#80
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