Fionn

I was at the G35 dealer the other day on Memorial Day. My friend and I were test driving cars. We test drive the Acura TL, Infiniti G35 coupe and Sedan, Nissan Maxima. When we were talking about the coupe, the dealer stated that the techtronic system is faster than a manual unless the manual driver is a speed shifter.. and even then it will be close. Supposedly, he said.. that because your foot is on the floor, you can listen to the engine.. and using the techtronic system.. you can make the car faster. Anyone beleive this or tested it?

TLove

Depends on the driver. I owned a G35 Coupe Auto, and beat the Manual 9 times out of 10 up to 60 mph. But, an experienced driver should beat a Manual. I have never put the TL Auto angainst the TL Manual, so I am not sure if it will be the same. I am assuming that it will.

NightRider

Well the man is somewhat right, these systems are getting more and more advanced...but manual will still be faster until they PERFECT these systems, which at that point would nullify a manual completely! The manual is faster because it's just that - you manually switch gears which means you can control RPM's better, not to mention get into your intended gear quicker and usually manuals have a slightly more "race oriented" gear ratios. In the TL for example, I have the auto which provides about 90% of the manual, because I also wanted smoothness and driveability. Just remember that if you have a manual it is ALL the time, not just when you are doing spirited driving. Too much hassle in my opinion unless you are driving it around like NASCAR.

PS: Manuals usually net less resale value too!

NightRider

It does also depend on the driver. Get an auto and work on your driving skills, you'll be fine

TLove

I just re-read my post. I meant to say that an experienced Manual driver should beat an Auto driver. Thanks NightRider for your explanation.

rets

I do agree with ppl above, the experienced drivers using manual should overpass most of Auto...

I think lots of Auto Sportshift/Tiptronic/techtronic are responding so slowly, for example, 04TL's SS mode is never swift enough. IMO, besides holding the gears, I don't know why I should use SS mode. Without improved Sportshift/Tiptronic/techtronic, the manual cars are still better in this topic.




NightRider, why did you say "Tiptronic aka "Sport Shift" aka CVT aka etc..."? I still remember that Audi, for example, A4 1.8 T has the five-speed manual, Tiptronic automatic, and multitronic Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT)... basically CVT isn't Tiptronic, CVT is more seamless than regular Auto or Triptronic. And the driving experience is totally different, too...

For my preference, I hate to drive CVT, it's not the car... need some time to get used to it. :o

NightRider

Ya your right, but it seems like CVT was developed with some of the same emphasis. Your right about our SS. To really get the most instant throttle reaction (below like 70 that is) hit the gas and switch to L simultaneously, otherwise it would be like being in 6 in a MT and shifting to 3 going 6-5-4-3...

astro

even if you're in an Enzo, a good manual driver, will out shift the computers.

prophet_RENAMED

I don't see a fully auto tranny ever outshifting a good manual driver, except maybe on upshifts. There is no way for a computer to determine what a driver wants to do. For instance going into a corner you might want to ride your gears high, an auto won't be able to do this without the ss mode (which is slow). Not only that, the gear ratios on auto and manual are so different on most if not all cars. Even if an auto can outshift a manual car, the manual car will tend to accelerate faster because the gears are in his/her advantage. Lastly I don't see how an auto can keep up in corners with a manual car.

This is obviously assuming that both drivers can actually 'drive'.

spidey07

go to the track and see the autos completely trouncing manuals.

A good auto will out run a manual simply because it shifts quicker and is able to deliver power with slippage. At least that's what I've been told by the guys with the SS, mustangs, cameros, etc - they've all got nice aftermarket trannys in them.

prophet_RENAMED

I understand on upshifts an auto will typically yield more consistent times. If you look at the funny cars, even they have 2 'gears' that they have to shift to. Going straight is fun, but typically whoever has the most money will win.

On a REAL track with you know..like turns and stuff... I highly doubt an auto will be able to keep up if the manual driver is half decent. Your exit speed will almost always be higher on a Manual car just because you can control the gears.

Fionn

When I play with the techtronics on the Acura, I can get the Ttronics to go faster than the Acura TL just using straight automatic.

caball88

aftermarket tranny's is the keyword. those tranny's are intended for drag racing and high peformance torque converters. the TL does not have this type of tranny with their 5AT. a 6MT will outshift it when driven correctly. we are comparing apples to apples here and not high performance auto tranny's. an auto will never outperform a manual unless we are talking about SMT where its really an electronic manual tranny. the clutch is engaged and disengaged by the computer. the M3 has this as an option and even that is a little slower than the 6MT that the M3 comes with. when they tested the shift times of the SMT vs 6MT the SMT was faster in every gear in the M3. but the 6MT still had the faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile (by very little). so as this technology advances it will probably soon surpass the ability of a human being(in a production car) but untill then manual is faster.

NightRider

As myself and prophet have said; Manuals have better gear ratios that are more performance oriented. example: say in TL (i have AT) 2nd gear redlines at around 75, I bet in MT 2nd gear tops out at something closer to 85 or maybe 90. <-- HYPOTHESIS. Or could it be that manuals redline at lower speeds as they go thru gears quicker??? Anyways.... Manuals provide more instant feedback. Then again if cars have aftermarket auto trannies, those are probably race bred and may just be quicker that a standard manual. Just my thoughts....

NightRider

Read the first couple sentences....

Aegir

Perhaps you should qualify that, because it's not true for anything close to a stock setup. I'm pretty familiar with Mustangs, and it takes a lot of work on an automatic just to get it close to the manual cars. Typical would be a C4 swap, transbrake, high stall converter, and a very low rear gear - at least 4.11's. Very fast shifts - always, even when you don't want fast shifts. Oh yeah, and you get about 14mpg.

spidey07

Sorry if I didn't qualify it enough.


Its a fun conversation. But it is safe to say that as far as auto vs. manual there is no blanket statement. It depends on the car.

SlntSam

CVT seems cool! I've never driven one though...for those who have, are you just hammering the gas while the RPM's stay in one spot and the tranny is doing all the work?

As for manual vs. auto. I think in the real world where not every drive is a race with someone it's more fun to have a manual. Basically you drive a manual car where you only steer an automatic one. I drive in rush hour traffic sometimes too and sure it's a pain. But that pain is well worth it when I open it up or rev match to go into a corner and yadda yadda yadda.

That's my personal take on it anyways. Obviously many others feel differently and that's why you have the option of auto and manual.

spidey07

hehe, I was driving my girl's car last night (auto) and went to slow for an exit ramp.

left foot went down and right hand reached for shifter...something wasn't right here as my brain finally caught up to the ingrained motions and muscle memory that have been burned in for 15 years.
:banghead:

NightRider

As far as taking turns and such (yes, I still have the crappy EL-42s) I have noticed that turning is a lot tighter and controlled if you use sport shift and keep it in gear like maybe 3-4K as opposed to just leaving in D. On a side note, if I had ever learned how to drive a manual, I would have gotten one in this car

SlntSam

Same with a manual, you if you're down a gear then it's easier to control in a corner....espcially those long swooping corners.

rets

Doesn't F1 race uses Auto gears? Their cars set the clutch between the engine and the gearbox, and when changing up the gears, they simply press a lever behind the wheel to move to the next ratio. The on-board computer automatically cuts the engine, depresses the clutch and switches ratios in the blink of an eye.

If they can make their computer onboard running fast and precisely, Auto seems to beat Manual here... ?? If Manual is so good, for this kind of racing, they should not use Auto at all... ??

kilrb

How about the fact that autos are less efficient in getting power to the ground? You can make an auto that will shift faster than a manual (but they don't in most every day cars because they would shift annoyingly hard), but that doesn't change the fact that automatics are not as efficient in getting power to the ground. Couple that with the fact that car-for-car, manuals typically have an extra gear, and thus are geared lower gear-for-gear. What do you get? More power at the wheel with lower gearing. Who cares at this point if the auto can shift faster?

I think the dealer is trying to brag, saying that the tranny can shift gears faster, which is good in a race, but not necessarily as good as the other benefits of the manuals.

As far as Indy cars, their "autos" are totally different than the auto transmissions in street cars.

prophet_RENAMED

I think those are called paddle shifters? I'm not quite sure, but I consider anything that requires additional movements other than gas pedal to not be fully auto. What you are describing is more in lines of a clutchless manual, which is pretty neat. Just think SS all the time without a clutch and actually FAST and comfy.

Is it me or does the SS shift have a kind of a jerk to it when you upshift.

Aegir

F1 transmissions are a totally different beast. They are manual transmissions, but everything is computer controlled. Shifts happen in about .02 seconds. Hand built, lots of exotic materials, lots of $$$ to make that happen.

moeronn

This is turning into another Auto vs Manual :argue:

Yes, the gearing in the manual (6 gears) is more suited to spirited driving then the auto (5 gears).

Keep in mind, though, that they have been slowly been increasing the number of gears for both manuals and autos. I'm 'only' 32, but I can remember 3ATs and 4MTs. It's possible that some of these are still even being produced today. At some point the autos will catch up to/beat the manuals in speed & smoothness combined. They may even make them smart enough to learn your driving habits and even downshift when turning and/or braking.

Yes, the manual, when driven by an expert driver will edge out the auto 0-60
Yes, by selecting your gears (SS or manual), you can get more control and power out of the car.
No, not everyone wants to drive a manual.
No, not everyone wants to drive an auto.
No, I don't care if you can beat me by 0.1 or 0.2 seconds in a race.

Live and let live.

kilrb

Do you think they'll get around the drivetrain loss the auto's have? I have driven the auto and manual versions of the TL and felt a significant difference. I used to have a '94 Z-28 (6mt), and I remember the autos were juuuuuuuuuuuust about as fast in a head-to-head race. I mean, they were close. Do some autos tend to be closer to manuals in drivetrain power loss?

caball88

similar to SMT(Sequential Manual Transmission) found in the M3. it has a clutch that is electronically controlled. think about the realestate available in an F1 car. there is not alot of room for a gated shifter or even a clutch pedal in the nose of the car.

rets

Well, kind of understand what SMT it is now... thanks for everyone's contribution... :o

A sequential manual transmission (SMT) should not be muddled with "tiptronic", which is Auto transmission. The tiptronic system could copy the shift lever motion of a sequential gearbox. But, because tiptronic has an auto transmission at its core, it still has the torque converter and usually does not shift as quickly.

Vicman17

The BMW SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) and the Audi DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) are actually manual transmissions (with clutches sans pedals) that have an Auto function option. The Tiptronic/ Shiftronic/ Sportshift and whatever else tronic are just auto trannies with a sequential Manual shift option. Whatever newfangled technological name they call AT these days, they are still auto trannies and still subject to the advantages/ disadvantages of the same old auto trannies of old minus the "gate". The power transfer of an AT is totally different than that of an MT car. That's why on the same car (like the TL/CL) it does feel totally different. However drivers profess their AT's to perform close to an MT car, it never will be the same.

Exotics like the Ferrari 360 Modena and the Enzo use Manual transmissions with electro-magnetic clutches that gets rid of the clutch pedal. Indy and F1 cars now use the same technology. But 2 pedals does not mean these cars drive like Auto because they are far from it. They still require the driver's understanding of power delivery that is much more than just driving each gear to the redline.

If one initially learned to drive cars with stick, switching to AT would be a "convenience" as there is less work involved not having a third pedal and there is much less feel of putting down performance on the road. If a driver learned to drive AT's firsthand, a stick shift would be a chore (as what they would feel driving MT on bumper to bumper traffic where AT is more practical). It's personal preference these days as even ultra high performance cars like the Porsche 911 Turbo, one of the fastest cars on the road offers an AT with Tiptronic.

Core MT drivers (like myself) would sometimes feel that even with a manual mode option (SportShift), the car still lacks performance as compared to an actual stick. Personally, I dislike the "coasting" that AT cars have while decelerating that AT's even with S/S functions can't duplicate what a manual tranny actually feels and does. For me this S/S mode is just a nifty, nice to have gimmickry that comes with the rest of the gadgets in the car. Nothing more.

leeherman

If by "track" you mean dragstrip, then yes, automatics are generally more successful.

The reason for automatics performing better on a strip is CONSISTANCY. A stick car may yield slightly better elapsed times or trap speeds, but an automatic car is more consistant since there is no human error in shifting.

Bracket racing is generally done based on a stated "dial-in" time, which is an estimated ET. The name of the game is to match or come as close to the dial-in time as possible without going UNDER it. The driver who comes closest to his/her dial-in without going under wins. Ultimate speed has little to do with winning if you dial-in properly and the variables inherent in driving a stick car make the desired consistancy more difficult to achieve.

I've taken my automatic Dart to the track many times (see my Avatar). My racing technique sucks, but at least it sucks consistantly!

Regards,

PoochaKannInc

Woohoo! I was waiting for someone to say this. In my affordability range, the M3 (w/ SMG), the TT (with DSG) and the MR2 Spyder (w/ Toyota's version of clutchless shifting) is the only options for me.

The simple way to understand these trannies is that they are actually a manual tranny with an automatic mode. The SportShift of Acura, Tiptronic of VW and Porsche, is an auto tranny with "some" manual functions.

The problem with SMG (from what I have heard) is that it can be jerky in automatic mode, and it is not as smooth as a good manual driver can be. The advantage is that it can shift much faster than the average manual driver (there are different modes you can drive in to increase or decrease the quickness of shifts). DSG (Audi's clutchless manual) is supposedly much smoother because it has dual-clutches sort of like a relay set up.

I would love to try one out in a TT, or better yet a Ferarri 360 Modena...

dcarlinf1

The transmissions in F1 cars are referred to as "semi-automatic". It's true that they are very expensive, but everything, and I mean everything that is cool in production cars (multi-valve engines, turbos, traction control, etc) came to be in F1 first. It's only a matter of time before things like this trickle down to production cars. Isn't the new RL going to have "paddle-shifters" in '05? That's a start. Give it time.

TireSmoke

I'm really surprised (or maybe I missed it) that no one has mentioned one of the key factors that make manual trannies a little quicker... weight. An auto will almost always weigh more than a manual model.

As for drag racing, as someone who traded in an '02 Trans Am on my TL, the reason people go with an auto over a manual has less to do with shifting and more to do with launch and consistant times. If you have a high HP car and you drop in a turbo 350 or 400 with a high stall, launches go like this:
(1) pull up to the line,
(2) hold left foot on brake,
(3) hold right foot on gas until RPMs match whatever predetermined level you figure out,
(4) wait for light,
(5) lift left foot and depress right foot, and
(6) stop after you break the 1/4 mile beams.

There is no worry about letting the clutch out or spinning the tires more or less than last time or missing a shift or shifting earlier or later, etc, etc, etc... all this means consistant launches and times (especially great for bracket racing). Not to mention the fact that a lot of these premium auto trannies can take a lot more torque/HP than a lot of sticks can handle before going belly up.

However, when I was running my TA against similarly equipped automatic models is that even if their times were quicker, my top speed was faster -- a sure sign that the manual cars would be quicker if the driver was better at launching... hey, I never claimed to be good at driving.

Go to a road race track, and you'll see the gap get huge depending on the set up... autos are notoriously bad for AutoX because you can't use engine braking or pick the right gears to enter and exit corners. The "manu-matics" are getting better and better at this, but there still is a lag in shift times and responsiveness.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider choosing the TL with an auto because I like to feel I'm actively participating in the driving experience. However, the TL is not a Viper, nor is it meant to be... a lot of people (probably the vast majority of TL buyers) would much rather get in, close the door, and let the car carry them to their destination in style. There's a lot to be said for that as well... especially in stop-and-go traffic.

sleeks

Tiresmoke, well said.

I have a 2002 Camaro SS with an Automatic. My car is just as fast (time wise) in the 1/4 mile as the Manuals that run there. However, their trap speed is faster. It is just easier to launch the A4 vs. the M6.

That being said, most cars with Automatics do not perform as well as the same car with a Manual. (the camaro, firebird, and Gto are exceptions).

I can't wait for more of the TRUE clutchless manuals to become available on more affordable cars.

There are rumors of a clutchless manual six speed for the '05 RSX. Well see.

Goodie

A quick side note on the M3 SMG. The SMG has a control next to the stick that adjusts how quickly the computer responds to gear change requests (either from the paddles of the stick).

When the slow setting is used you can actually feel the computer slipping the clutch a bit as it shifts, especially from 1st to 2nd, resulting in a very smooth shift. On the slowest setting the car shifts so smoothly that it actually feels like a slushbox (traditional automatic) tranny.

When the shift speed is set to fast there is a noticeable thunk, especially at higher engine speeds or WOT. It feels much like someone driving a "true" manual slamming a downshift from 4th to 2nd to execute a pass.

While I find the SMG system technically amazing, it is really quite eerie. It actually feels just like a person is shifting the gears, even blipping the throttle on downshifts and slipping the clutch to "hill hold". When you stop to think that it really is the computer, imitating a person, it kind of freaks me out.

Aegir

:phatyo:

I didn't know the M3 had this. That's a pretty slick feature. Thanks for posting this.

PoochaKannInc

Yup. The M3 has 5 Automatic modes (from most luxurious to sporty) and 6 manual modes (the highest manual mode offers the quickest shift.)

You can read some more about it in this Car And Driver article:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

yield2s

your 2nd gear max speed are completely wrong, My TypeS redlines at 64mph in 2nd( same 5spd) why would you think a 6spd would get more max speed out of a "shorter" gear?
The fact is the max speed on the 6spd in 2nd is probably just UNDER 60mph which of coarse will only hurt the 0-60 time but really means that there's a huge gap in acceleration between auto and man thats not really evident in the 0-60 numbers.

NightRider

Yes forgive me, I have 5AT and at the time, my car had been in the shop for a month so I became unfamiliar with it. Good point though