Talked to a Honda parts guy and a service tech about pressure switches/Type F fluid
03-03-2011, 08:37 PM
#1
Talked to a Honda parts guy and a service tech about pressure switches/Type F fluid
This is a pretty long post. Sorry in advance.
So today I felt would be a good time to start getting the parts together to replace my 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches and start changing my ATF to redline racing ATF. I went over to the local honda dealer to see if they had the switches. When I told him the part numbers he asked what code I was throwing and I told him none, just preventative maintenance.
He said that I shouldn't need to replace them unless a code is being thrown. A tech walked by and got involved in the conversation too, saying that the sensors work together so when one is failing, the other can notice and throw a code. I don't really believe this since it seems like good preventative maintenance. From my understanding as they get wear on them, the upper and lower pressure limits get closer together, so even if no code is thrown, its not 100%.
I asked them what they thought about using type F ATF fluid in these honda transmissions. They both immediately said ONLY use OEM honda fluid. The tech was trying to explain to me that with no friction modifiers, I'd break the shafts immediately. I responded with "Isn't it the slipping from the soft 'luxury' friction modified shifts that wear out the clutch packs?" He said no, OEM fluid is the best for these transmissions. He then pulled up a diagram of the shafts and said that "no other manufacturer uses transmission like this so you NEED to use honda fluid." I tried my best to say that I believe the only use of these friction modifier heavy fluids is to soften the shifts. I don't mind the firm shifts and think it'd be easier on the clutch packs.
Long story but I left being completely polarized about this subject. Everyone on here who has tried racing ATF has met with no ill effects that I know of which goes against the "catastrophic and quick failure" vibe I was getting from these 2 dealership guys. They also thought I was crazy and that it was completely unnecessary to change the pressure switches. The parts guy said: "The only thing you need to do is change your transmission fluid every now and then."
Anyways, just wanted to post this and get some responses saying I'm not crazy and that pressure switches/redline racing ATF are a good idea.
I'm honestly kind of astounded at how opposite everything they said was to what I've heard from IHC/inaccurate/the rest of acurazine.
So today I felt would be a good time to start getting the parts together to replace my 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches and start changing my ATF to redline racing ATF. I went over to the local honda dealer to see if they had the switches. When I told him the part numbers he asked what code I was throwing and I told him none, just preventative maintenance.
He said that I shouldn't need to replace them unless a code is being thrown. A tech walked by and got involved in the conversation too, saying that the sensors work together so when one is failing, the other can notice and throw a code. I don't really believe this since it seems like good preventative maintenance. From my understanding as they get wear on them, the upper and lower pressure limits get closer together, so even if no code is thrown, its not 100%.
I asked them what they thought about using type F ATF fluid in these honda transmissions. They both immediately said ONLY use OEM honda fluid. The tech was trying to explain to me that with no friction modifiers, I'd break the shafts immediately. I responded with "Isn't it the slipping from the soft 'luxury' friction modified shifts that wear out the clutch packs?" He said no, OEM fluid is the best for these transmissions. He then pulled up a diagram of the shafts and said that "no other manufacturer uses transmission like this so you NEED to use honda fluid." I tried my best to say that I believe the only use of these friction modifier heavy fluids is to soften the shifts. I don't mind the firm shifts and think it'd be easier on the clutch packs.
Long story but I left being completely polarized about this subject. Everyone on here who has tried racing ATF has met with no ill effects that I know of which goes against the "catastrophic and quick failure" vibe I was getting from these 2 dealership guys. They also thought I was crazy and that it was completely unnecessary to change the pressure switches. The parts guy said: "The only thing you need to do is change your transmission fluid every now and then."
Anyways, just wanted to post this and get some responses saying I'm not crazy and that pressure switches/redline racing ATF are a good idea.
I'm honestly kind of astounded at how opposite everything they said was to what I've heard from IHC/inaccurate/the rest of acurazine.
03-03-2011, 08:49 PM
#2
Suzuka Master
dont believe them, thats the party line, I would not be suprised that they can barely read codes and swap parts
Last edited by pohljm; 03-03-2011 at 08:58 PM.
03-03-2011, 09:00 PM
#3
AZ Community Team
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They don't have the "luxury" of experimenting and trying different things.
I suppose they'd say GM Synchromesh doesn't fix the 3rd gear MT problem either. But it does. Not cover it up. Actually fixed it.
And I suppose they'd defend Acura/Honda glass transmissions. But they can't explain how to lessen or slow the failure rate.
I don't buy everything I read on this site and I'm VERY leary of the Type-F arguements. But some will experiment. And overtime a history of success or failure will develop.
I suppose they'd say GM Synchromesh doesn't fix the 3rd gear MT problem either. But it does. Not cover it up. Actually fixed it.
And I suppose they'd defend Acura/Honda glass transmissions. But they can't explain how to lessen or slow the failure rate.
I don't buy everything I read on this site and I'm VERY leary of the Type-F arguements. But some will experiment. And overtime a history of success or failure will develop.
03-03-2011, 09:16 PM
#4
Instructor
I like to look at how 2 sides would approach their position in any argument. In this case...
Honda/Acura has no choice but to tell you their fluid is essentially required. What company is going to speak out against their product. They also don't really have the luxury of experimenting with their vehicles.
The pro Type F people on this forum are going to refute all of their statements by saying "of course they said that" and "it's all marketing" and things of that nature.
It's inevitable in an argument such as this because there is little to no empirical data to back it up as these cars aren't all that old. All you can do regarding the Type F argument is draw a conclusion about the results of the people on this board who use(d) Type F. There are people with tens of thousands of miles on Type F fluid that have had zero issues, and in some cases it has improved or eliminated other issues. Personally, for me, that's enough for me to try it out.
Additionally, the fact that they said a Type F would have a "catastrophic and quick failure" honestly kind of strengthens the argument that Honda/Acura is merely stating the script. I put Type F in my TL this past weekend and it honestly feels better than it has before. I guess I'll keep waiting for my catastrophe.
I dislike when people get up in arms about this argument. No side is right or wrong because it's too new for there to be a winner. You can draw your own conclusions based on the evidence that we continue to gather, that is all.
Honda/Acura has no choice but to tell you their fluid is essentially required. What company is going to speak out against their product. They also don't really have the luxury of experimenting with their vehicles.
The pro Type F people on this forum are going to refute all of their statements by saying "of course they said that" and "it's all marketing" and things of that nature.
It's inevitable in an argument such as this because there is little to no empirical data to back it up as these cars aren't all that old. All you can do regarding the Type F argument is draw a conclusion about the results of the people on this board who use(d) Type F. There are people with tens of thousands of miles on Type F fluid that have had zero issues, and in some cases it has improved or eliminated other issues. Personally, for me, that's enough for me to try it out.
Additionally, the fact that they said a Type F would have a "catastrophic and quick failure" honestly kind of strengthens the argument that Honda/Acura is merely stating the script. I put Type F in my TL this past weekend and it honestly feels better than it has before. I guess I'll keep waiting for my catastrophe.
I dislike when people get up in arms about this argument. No side is right or wrong because it's too new for there to be a winner. You can draw your own conclusions based on the evidence that we continue to gather, that is all.
03-03-2011, 09:39 PM
#5
Yea exactly, I know this topic has probably already been done to death but I'm still debating on if I should try it out or not. I do get a sense that the honda employees are only towing the company line, but I still tend to worry they might be 100% right. I had a 99TL before my 05 and the 99 had transmission trouble so I'm trying to do what I can to keep my 05 running alright.
03-03-2011, 09:46 PM
#6
Instructor
Yea exactly, I know this topic has probably already been done to death but I'm still debating on if I should try it out or not. I do get a sense that the honda employees are only towing the company line, but I still tend to worry they might be 100% right. I had a 99TL before my 05 and the 99 had transmission trouble so I'm trying to do what I can to keep my 05 running alright.
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03-03-2011, 09:59 PM
#8
Chapter Leader (Houston)
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Yea exactly, I know this topic has probably already been done to death but I'm still debating on if I should try it out or not. I do get a sense that the honda employees are only towing the company line, but I still tend to worry they might be 100% right. I had a 99TL before my 05 and the 99 had transmission trouble so I'm trying to do what I can to keep my 05 running alright.
03-03-2011, 10:17 PM
#9
Drifting
^I'm in TLDude's camp on this one.
I'm going to replace with 4 quarts of Type-F every 20K miles. This will be my hedge on this debate. I think I'll weigh the drain plug each time and see how the Type-F improves wear as well so there should be some decent results in 1.5 years (I changed at 20K previously with Z1 and have a change due at 40K soon)
At least Honda didn't talk about catastrophic failures changing sensors.
The dealer also has an incentive from a few angles: income from fluids and potential labor charges when the tranny needs a rebuild or replacement since either Honda pays them to do warranty work or the customer does out of warranty.
I'm going to replace with 4 quarts of Type-F every 20K miles. This will be my hedge on this debate. I think I'll weigh the drain plug each time and see how the Type-F improves wear as well so there should be some decent results in 1.5 years (I changed at 20K previously with Z1 and have a change due at 40K soon)
At least Honda didn't talk about catastrophic failures changing sensors.
The dealer also has an incentive from a few angles: income from fluids and potential labor charges when the tranny needs a rebuild or replacement since either Honda pays them to do warranty work or the customer does out of warranty.
03-03-2011, 10:29 PM
#10
The way I figure it is there are plenty of people on these forums that no FAR more about cars than I do. If they are using this fluid on their own cars it's good enough for me. It's not as if they are talking up a product they don't even use. Combine that with the fact that we've seen great results so far, and it's enough for me to give it a shot.
03-03-2011, 10:40 PM
#11
Sounds like they have no real world experience with these issues...They are just regurgitating what they have heard and been taught...
This is not just a Honda /Acura thing. Gm WILL NOT acknowledge the problems with their intake gaskets on their older 4.3 blazer, jimmy etc motors, nor the same problem with everything with a 3100 in it.
keep in mind they need to sell parts and service too, and if their shit lasted forever, neither would sell. They want their stuff to break right out of warranty. I dont think we can do any worse by taking this gamble.
All you can really do is take everyones input and decide for yourself. IHC and Innacurate make good arguments and Ive talked to other car gurus locally and I made my decision. Im nearing 98k and I recently took advantage of the sale outdoorpros is having. I havent changed the fluid yet, but I will soon. I have done one 3x3 with z1 and my pressure switches, but im probably gonna do a 1x3 with the F, drive a week or so, then do another. Im not having trans problems yet, but they seem inevidable and i feel its worth a shot. Whats the worse that can happen? trans faiulre???
This is not just a Honda /Acura thing. Gm WILL NOT acknowledge the problems with their intake gaskets on their older 4.3 blazer, jimmy etc motors, nor the same problem with everything with a 3100 in it.
keep in mind they need to sell parts and service too, and if their shit lasted forever, neither would sell. They want their stuff to break right out of warranty. I dont think we can do any worse by taking this gamble.
All you can really do is take everyones input and decide for yourself. IHC and Innacurate make good arguments and Ive talked to other car gurus locally and I made my decision. Im nearing 98k and I recently took advantage of the sale outdoorpros is having. I havent changed the fluid yet, but I will soon. I have done one 3x3 with z1 and my pressure switches, but im probably gonna do a 1x3 with the F, drive a week or so, then do another. Im not having trans problems yet, but they seem inevidable and i feel its worth a shot. Whats the worse that can happen? trans faiulre???
03-03-2011, 11:08 PM
#12
One thing IS clear to me, if Acura STILL hasnt resolved these transmission issues themselves, they clearly STILL do not know what's causing them or why. THEREFOR they are going to insist on doing it their way even if it's the wrong thing because they simply don't know any better. It's like arguing with medieval doctors who are absolutely convinced that bloodletting works and is the best way. Clearly Acura has had a HINT that it might be the fluid, hence they changed their ATF to a new DW-1 over the old Z1 which has less FM in it, something that IHC has already determined to be a bad thing for these trannies. I'm also willing to bet if you wait until the sensors are throwing codes, your tranny is already FUBAR'd.
03-03-2011, 11:23 PM
#13
I had the same experience when I went to an acura dealership in my area to talk about the 3rd gear issue in the 6spd. They claimed they had no idea what they were talking about. I always have to face ignorance like this since I'm only 20 years old but I look 17 and they assume its mommys car or whatever. Thats why I just use a carefully designed method by going along with their bullshit and what not and after they feel satisfied that they won said "argument" I give them all the facts, tell them they should do their research and maybe show prospective customers some respect because when I walked in there, I was as polite as I could be and quickly proved to them that I knew what I was talking about. Before I left I mentioned that there is in fact a TSB out for the issue I was referring to and the fact that they didn't know that/chose to ignore that says alot about their service department.
Needless to say, I went to another dealership next to my job as soon as I bought the car to buy some misc. parts that were missing and the guy at the parts counter was probably the most helpful person in the world and not only helped me with parts but also wrote down on the piece of paper "GM Synchromesh Friction Modified - 2.6 quarts". I have been coming to him since and will now purchase all of my misc. parts from him and he knows that too because he understands that even though I dont look like I know what I'm talking about, he took me seriously and gave me outstanding service. He also referred me to an awesom Honda dealership that did the drain/refill for me at a great price where the staff was equally as helpful/friendly.
The moral of this rant is to just go to another dealership, effectively show them that you probably know more about that car then they do because for people like me, it has always been a challenge for others to take me seriously.
END RANT
Needless to say, I went to another dealership next to my job as soon as I bought the car to buy some misc. parts that were missing and the guy at the parts counter was probably the most helpful person in the world and not only helped me with parts but also wrote down on the piece of paper "GM Synchromesh Friction Modified - 2.6 quarts". I have been coming to him since and will now purchase all of my misc. parts from him and he knows that too because he understands that even though I dont look like I know what I'm talking about, he took me seriously and gave me outstanding service. He also referred me to an awesom Honda dealership that did the drain/refill for me at a great price where the staff was equally as helpful/friendly.
The moral of this rant is to just go to another dealership, effectively show them that you probably know more about that car then they do because for people like me, it has always been a challenge for others to take me seriously.
END RANT
03-04-2011, 12:06 AM
#15
They should care. If periodically replacing a couple cheap ass sensors and switching fluids saves them millions in warranty transmission repairs/replacements, I would consider that a goddamn no brainer.
03-04-2011, 07:53 AM
#17
You are absolutely correct. Hahah when I read that I was like WTF is he talking about but then I remembered that this is an auto tranny thread. Haha you would think that after years of using virtually the sane transmission they would figure out how to make it bulletproof. I'm grateful that atleast the engines aren't built like this
03-04-2011, 08:38 AM
#18
Instructor
The way I figure it is there are plenty of people on these forums that no FAR more about cars than I do. If they are using this fluid on their own cars it's good enough for me. It's not as if they are talking up a product they don't even use. Combine that with the fact that we've seen great results so far, and it's enough for me to give it a shot.
03-04-2011, 09:30 AM
#19
I called up a local (indy) shop to see if they would do the type-f. It went like this: "No, no, no, ruin trans, nobody else will do it either, nobody wants to be seen as the 'bad shop' when the trans dies. There are things in there that the Honda fluid was designed specifically for, blabla."
Now I'm not sold on his argument but I'm not uncomfortable waiting to see how the type-f fluid pans out for everyone on here. My trailer hitch makes it hard for me to do the fluid change myself though... (hitch area is the jackpoint)
She goes in today for a 3x3 using z1 in the meantime.. It can only help.
Now I'm not sold on his argument but I'm not uncomfortable waiting to see how the type-f fluid pans out for everyone on here. My trailer hitch makes it hard for me to do the fluid change myself though... (hitch area is the jackpoint)
She goes in today for a 3x3 using z1 in the meantime.. It can only help.
03-04-2011, 09:41 AM
#20
I called up a local (indy) shop to see if they would do the type-f. It went like this: "No, no, no, ruin trans, nobody else will do it either, nobody wants to be seen as the 'bad shop' when the trans dies. There are things in there that the Honda fluid was designed specifically for, blabla."
Now I'm not sold on his argument but I'm not uncomfortable waiting to see how the type-f fluid pans out for everyone on here. My trailer hitch makes it hard for me to do the fluid change myself though... (hitch area is the jackpoint)
She goes in today for a 3x3 using z1 in the meantime.. It can only help.
Now I'm not sold on his argument but I'm not uncomfortable waiting to see how the type-f fluid pans out for everyone on here. My trailer hitch makes it hard for me to do the fluid change myself though... (hitch area is the jackpoint)
She goes in today for a 3x3 using z1 in the meantime.. It can only help.
03-04-2011, 10:09 AM
#21
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Why would you trust a honda tech or parts guy? What have they ever done to convince you that they know what they are talking about in regards to transmissions? They are company guys. Go and ask an aftermarket transmission guy who has made a living replacing Honda Trannys who, as a whole, have been recommending Dex III as a fluid in Honda Trannys for years. While they might not be down with Type F, I would doubt that many of them put Z1 in their rebuilds.
FWIW - after 20K on Mobil 1 Syn Dex III, my plug was clean as a whistle. I think that it is safe to say that even some syn Dex III is pretty darned good. I did a 1x3 with the Redline racing and it is not as good as the Mobil with my tranny, but I imagine that some of that might be the life that it lived before I got it. It has some harsh shifts during some WOT applications. I am going to give it some time.
I am not a pro Type F guy, but I am also against the Honda fluid. After going 340K in my accord tranny (and running strong when I got rid of it) with just cheap 'ole Dex III, I am a high-quality Dex III guy myself... who is experimenting with the Type F since I know that I don't know it all and wanna try it out for myself.
FWIW - after 20K on Mobil 1 Syn Dex III, my plug was clean as a whistle. I think that it is safe to say that even some syn Dex III is pretty darned good. I did a 1x3 with the Redline racing and it is not as good as the Mobil with my tranny, but I imagine that some of that might be the life that it lived before I got it. It has some harsh shifts during some WOT applications. I am going to give it some time.
I am not a pro Type F guy, but I am also against the Honda fluid. After going 340K in my accord tranny (and running strong when I got rid of it) with just cheap 'ole Dex III, I am a high-quality Dex III guy myself... who is experimenting with the Type F since I know that I don't know it all and wanna try it out for myself.
03-04-2011, 10:25 AM
#22
Home Of The Gemini Method
If you find a good dealership and can build a good relationship with the service dept, the do it. I am fortunate that my dealership does have a damn good master-tech who I trust his judgements and opinions.
This is the 3rd Acura I have bought from this dealership and the service guys know how I treat my cars, so doing aftermarket things isn't a big deal, just have to approach and treat it with respect.
Tha said, Inaccurate and I Hate Cars's posts and knowledge swayed me to do the Redline D4 3X3. I did my 3X3 Redline D4 last July and I only drive my 2007 TL-S using the paddle shifters and have had great success. When I approached my tech about doing it, he just smiled and knew/knows of the problems associated with the weak Honda transmissions.
This is the 3rd Acura I have bought from this dealership and the service guys know how I treat my cars, so doing aftermarket things isn't a big deal, just have to approach and treat it with respect.
Tha said, Inaccurate and I Hate Cars's posts and knowledge swayed me to do the Redline D4 3X3. I did my 3X3 Redline D4 last July and I only drive my 2007 TL-S using the paddle shifters and have had great success. When I approached my tech about doing it, he just smiled and knew/knows of the problems associated with the weak Honda transmissions.
Last edited by J Dubya; 03-04-2011 at 10:31 AM.
03-04-2011, 01:06 PM
#23
Yup--got the car back (z1 3x3) and shifts are both quicker and smoother. Same thing happens for the type-F folks from what I read. FWIW the techs didn't report any shards/gunk in the old fluid, and I (& previous owner...) had about 100k on the fluid 
03-04-2011, 02:56 PM
#24
Instructor
I posted this information in one of the many Redline threads. After reading through all the info I was unsure and decided to call one of the technical guys at Redline, I spoke with Dave and he himself advised against going with the Racing AFT and suggested I use the D4. His reasoning was the affects it would have on the torque convertor.
03-04-2011, 05:44 PM
#25
Even with their track record, Honda will swear up and down to use Z1, and Redline will tell you what they legally should - use the recommended D4. I read most of the threads and figured I just make up my own damn mind 
and went ahead with the D4 3x3. It made a noticeable difference in multiple areas. I've now got the Racing stuff queued up but have to do my brake fluid first.
Be free to mix and match the Redline ATF's so if you wanna go Racing ATF but are feeling a little reluctant, just go with the D4 first and then hit it with a little Racing fluid later. Nothing wrong with that...
and went ahead with the D4 3x3. It made a noticeable difference in multiple areas. I've now got the Racing stuff queued up but have to do my brake fluid first.Be free to mix and match the Redline ATF's so if you wanna go Racing ATF but are feeling a little reluctant, just go with the D4 first and then hit it with a little Racing fluid later. Nothing wrong with that...
03-12-2011, 11:53 AM
#26
Drifting
I just did a 1x3 change to Redline Type-F today. The shifts are crisper than they were prior. I change my ATF every 20K. All this wear discussion prompted me to change the fluid a little sooner than otherwise and the weather was nice today.
The car now has 38K miles and this was its second ATF change with the prior being Z1. There was the usual wear on the drain plug and I took photos so I can compare next time with the Type-F in. Hopefully the plug will show less wear material on it too.
I realize it will take a couple more changes to get the full effect of Type-F and that is OK. If figure the 1/3 Type-F with 2/3 Z1 might make a D4- shift now. So far I like it and will look forward to the next change. I wanted to tip-toe into this and see this scheme as reasonable.
The car now has 38K miles and this was its second ATF change with the prior being Z1. There was the usual wear on the drain plug and I took photos so I can compare next time with the Type-F in. Hopefully the plug will show less wear material on it too.
I realize it will take a couple more changes to get the full effect of Type-F and that is OK. If figure the 1/3 Type-F with 2/3 Z1 might make a D4- shift now. So far I like it and will look forward to the next change. I wanted to tip-toe into this and see this scheme as reasonable.
03-12-2011, 12:26 PM
#27
Drifting
Below are some photos of my change at 38K (prior was at 20K with Z1). I'll take more photos at 60K and hope to see less crap on the plug.
Plug with wear material on it:
After wipe down with material on paper towel:
Signs of a leak. I took the car to dealer at 20K and they said this was 'normal' so I at least have a service order on this during warranty period:
Plug with wear material on it:
After wipe down with material on paper towel:
Signs of a leak. I took the car to dealer at 20K and they said this was 'normal' so I at least have a service order on this during warranty period:
03-13-2011, 12:27 AM
#28
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2. I did a Z1 3x3 about 10K miles ago, it wasn't that dirty as yours on the magnate. Present mileage: 88K
3. 3 days ago I dumped the Z1 and put Redline Racing ATF. Driving is a lot smoother tho not much different; but on the freeway the car jumps quick.
4. Pressure switches were changed 6K miles ago
03-13-2011, 12:57 AM
#29
Even with their track record, Honda will swear up and down to use Z1, and Redline will tell you what they legally should - use the recommended D4. I read most of the threads and figured I just make up my own damn mind and went ahead with the D4 3x3. It made a noticeable difference in multiple areas. I've now got the Racing stuff queued up but have to do my brake fluid first.
Be free to mix and match the Redline ATF's so if you wanna go Racing ATF but are feeling a little reluctant, just go with the D4 first and then hit it with a little Racing fluid later. Nothing wrong with that...
and went ahead with the D4 3x3. It made a noticeable difference in multiple areas. I've now got the Racing stuff queued up but have to do my brake fluid first.Be free to mix and match the Redline ATF's so if you wanna go Racing ATF but are feeling a little reluctant, just go with the D4 first and then hit it with a little Racing fluid later. Nothing wrong with that...
03-13-2011, 07:18 AM
#30
Registered Member
I had the same experience when I went to an acura dealership in my area to talk about the 3rd gear issue in the 6spd. They claimed they had no idea what they were talking about. I always have to face ignorance like this since I'm only 20 years old but I look 17 and they assume its mommys car or whatever. Thats why I just use a carefully designed method by going along with their bullshit and what not and after they feel satisfied that they won said "argument" I give them all the facts, tell them they should do their research and maybe show prospective customers some respect because when I walked in there, I was as polite as I could be and quickly proved to them that I knew what I was talking about. Before I left I mentioned that there is in fact a TSB out for the issue I was referring to and the fact that they didn't know that/chose to ignore that says alot about their service department.
Needless to say, I went to another dealership next to my job as soon as I bought the car to buy some misc. parts that were missing and the guy at the parts counter was probably the most helpful person in the world and not only helped me with parts but also wrote down on the piece of paper "GM Synchromesh Friction Modified - 2.6 quarts". I have been coming to him since and will now purchase all of my misc. parts from him and he knows that too because he understands that even though I dont look like I know what I'm talking about, he took me seriously and gave me outstanding service. He also referred me to an awesom Honda dealership that did the drain/refill for me at a great price where the staff was equally as helpful/friendly.
The moral of this rant is to just go to another dealership, effectively show them that you probably know more about that car then they do because for people like me, it has always been a challenge for others to take me seriously.
END RANT
Needless to say, I went to another dealership next to my job as soon as I bought the car to buy some misc. parts that were missing and the guy at the parts counter was probably the most helpful person in the world and not only helped me with parts but also wrote down on the piece of paper "GM Synchromesh Friction Modified - 2.6 quarts". I have been coming to him since and will now purchase all of my misc. parts from him and he knows that too because he understands that even though I dont look like I know what I'm talking about, he took me seriously and gave me outstanding service. He also referred me to an awesom Honda dealership that did the drain/refill for me at a great price where the staff was equally as helpful/friendly.
The moral of this rant is to just go to another dealership, effectively show them that you probably know more about that car then they do because for people like me, it has always been a challenge for others to take me seriously.
END RANT
03-13-2011, 07:25 AM
#31
Registered Member
Sounds like they have no real world experience with these issues...They are just regurgitating what they have heard and been taught...
This is not just a Honda /Acura thing. Gm WILL NOT acknowledge the problems with their intake gaskets on their older 4.3 blazer, jimmy etc motors, nor the same problem with everything with a 3100 in it.
keep in mind they need to sell parts and service too, and if their shit lasted forever, neither would sell. They want their stuff to break right out of warranty. I dont think we can do any worse by taking this gamble.
All you can really do is take everyones input and decide for yourself. IHC and Innacurate make good arguments and Ive talked to other car gurus locally and I made my decision. Im nearing 98k and I recently took advantage of the sale outdoorpros is having. I havent changed the fluid yet, but I will soon. I have done one 3x3 with z1 and my pressure switches, but im probably gonna do a 1x3 with the F, drive a week or so, then do another. Im not having trans problems yet, but they seem inevidable and i feel its worth a shot. Whats the worse that can happen? trans faiulre???
This is not just a Honda /Acura thing. Gm WILL NOT acknowledge the problems with their intake gaskets on their older 4.3 blazer, jimmy etc motors, nor the same problem with everything with a 3100 in it.
keep in mind they need to sell parts and service too, and if their shit lasted forever, neither would sell. They want their stuff to break right out of warranty. I dont think we can do any worse by taking this gamble.
All you can really do is take everyones input and decide for yourself. IHC and Innacurate make good arguments and Ive talked to other car gurus locally and I made my decision. Im nearing 98k and I recently took advantage of the sale outdoorpros is having. I havent changed the fluid yet, but I will soon. I have done one 3x3 with z1 and my pressure switches, but im probably gonna do a 1x3 with the F, drive a week or so, then do another. Im not having trans problems yet, but they seem inevidable and i feel its worth a shot. Whats the worse that can happen? trans faiulre???
03-13-2011, 10:09 AM
#32
Team Owner
And around and round we go. If the success rate of the type f and the failure rate on the Z1 is not enough then I don't know what to say. Let's remember we've had only one potential failure in type f and that's looking more like an app sensor not a trans issue.
Dex III is way better than Z1 but type f is way better than Dex III. Going with D4 before going to type F is pointless and a waste of money. As for Redline's comment on torque converter shudder, there is not one single case of that happening ever. You guys must not remember Inaccurate's conversation with them if you're still bringing this up.
I switched to Amsoil's ATD at 20000 miles which is not a misspelling. It is not designed for the Honda 5at and all the know it alls at bitog said it would instantly fail. This fluid was supposed to have just a little less FM than Amsoil's normal ATF. I ran it into the 70000 mile range when I switched to type f. Car is about to turn 100000 miles. After several track days and 80000 miles on these types of fluids, where's the failure?
Last, the point of type f is not to give softer shifts, its to quicken shifts to prevent clutch pack wear and increase holding power of the clutches. Better shift quality is a nice side effect. The car is supposed to shift firmer at full throttle on type f. This is not a luxury mod, this is a mod to make the trans last forever. If you get better shift quality, that's great but that's not the main purpose.
Dex III is way better than Z1 but type f is way better than Dex III. Going with D4 before going to type F is pointless and a waste of money. As for Redline's comment on torque converter shudder, there is not one single case of that happening ever. You guys must not remember Inaccurate's conversation with them if you're still bringing this up.
I switched to Amsoil's ATD at 20000 miles which is not a misspelling. It is not designed for the Honda 5at and all the know it alls at bitog said it would instantly fail. This fluid was supposed to have just a little less FM than Amsoil's normal ATF. I ran it into the 70000 mile range when I switched to type f. Car is about to turn 100000 miles. After several track days and 80000 miles on these types of fluids, where's the failure?
Last, the point of type f is not to give softer shifts, its to quicken shifts to prevent clutch pack wear and increase holding power of the clutches. Better shift quality is a nice side effect. The car is supposed to shift firmer at full throttle on type f. This is not a luxury mod, this is a mod to make the trans last forever. If you get better shift quality, that's great but that's not the main purpose.
03-13-2011, 10:51 AM
#33
Drifting
1. I can't believe they said it is normal to have a leak on a new car.
2. I did a Z1 3x3 about 10K miles ago, it wasn't that dirty as yours on the magnate. Present mileage: 88K
3. 3 days ago I dumped the Z1 and put Redline Racing ATF. Driving is a lot smoother tho not much different; but on the freeway the car jumps quick.
4. Pressure switches were changed 6K miles ago
2. I did a Z1 3x3 about 10K miles ago, it wasn't that dirty as yours on the magnate. Present mileage: 88K
3. 3 days ago I dumped the Z1 and put Redline Racing ATF. Driving is a lot smoother tho not much different; but on the freeway the car jumps quick.
4. Pressure switches were changed 6K miles ago
On point #2, was that the 1st change or 2nd? This was my second and I did not do a 3x3 the first time. It could be this was residual wear still from the initial fill.
On point #3, I concur with IHC and experience quicker shifts which are great for me.
On point #4, I have the pressure switches but was thinking of changing them at 60K at next ATF refill since transmission seems to shift fine with no shudders. This next refill will be much anticipated for checking out the plug residue.
03-13-2011, 11:38 AM
#34
I like to look at how 2 sides would approach their position in any argument. In this case...
Honda/Acura has no choice but to tell you their fluid is essentially required. What company is going to speak out against their product. They also don't really have the luxury of experimenting with their vehicles.
The pro Type F people on this forum are going to refute all of their statements by saying "of course they said that" and "it's all marketing" and things of that nature.
It's inevitable in an argument such as this because there is little to no empirical data to back it up as these cars aren't all that old. All you can do regarding the Type F argument is draw a conclusion about the results of the people on this board who use(d) Type F. There are people with tens of thousands of miles on Type F fluid that have had zero issues, and in some cases it has improved or eliminated other issues. Personally, for me, that's enough for me to try it out.
Additionally, the fact that they said a Type F would have a "catastrophic and quick failure" honestly kind of strengthens the argument that Honda/Acura is merely stating the script. I put Type F in my TL this past weekend and it honestly feels better than it has before. I guess I'll keep waiting for my catastrophe.
I dislike when people get up in arms about this argument. No side is right or wrong because it's too new for there to be a winner. You can draw your own conclusions based on the evidence that we continue to gather, that is all.
Honda/Acura has no choice but to tell you their fluid is essentially required. What company is going to speak out against their product. They also don't really have the luxury of experimenting with their vehicles.
The pro Type F people on this forum are going to refute all of their statements by saying "of course they said that" and "it's all marketing" and things of that nature.
It's inevitable in an argument such as this because there is little to no empirical data to back it up as these cars aren't all that old. All you can do regarding the Type F argument is draw a conclusion about the results of the people on this board who use(d) Type F. There are people with tens of thousands of miles on Type F fluid that have had zero issues, and in some cases it has improved or eliminated other issues. Personally, for me, that's enough for me to try it out.
Additionally, the fact that they said a Type F would have a "catastrophic and quick failure" honestly kind of strengthens the argument that Honda/Acura is merely stating the script. I put Type F in my TL this past weekend and it honestly feels better than it has before. I guess I'll keep waiting for my catastrophe.
I dislike when people get up in arms about this argument. No side is right or wrong because it's too new for there to be a winner. You can draw your own conclusions based on the evidence that we continue to gather, that is all.
You can look at facts and data from each different types of fluid.
Which is better? Re-used motor oil or brand new? Do we have "empirical data" to say that the re-used motor oil wouldn't work like the new oil?
Not hard to figure this one out with all the information in the ATF thread.
03-13-2011, 02:20 PM
#35
Instructor
Z1 has been here how long? And how many failed transmissions has there been? Think about it.
You can look at facts and data from each different types of fluid.
Which is better? Re-used motor oil or brand new? Do we have "empirical data" to say that the re-used motor oil wouldn't work like the new oil?
Not hard to figure this one out with all the information in the ATF thread.
You can look at facts and data from each different types of fluid.
Which is better? Re-used motor oil or brand new? Do we have "empirical data" to say that the re-used motor oil wouldn't work like the new oil?
Not hard to figure this one out with all the information in the ATF thread.
03-13-2011, 02:55 PM
#36
I posted this information in one of the many Redline threads. After reading through all the info I was unsure and decided to call one of the technical guys at Redline, I spoke with Dave and he himself advised against going with the Racing AFT and suggested I use the D4. His reasoning was the affects it would have on the torque convertor.
03-13-2011, 03:14 PM
#37
Team Owner
Dude my tranny just failed and the dealer put that it was because a failed torque converter. Mind you the failure happened two weeks after switching to TypeF. I know many have had great success with the typeF but putting two and two together is all Im doing. PS No offense to those more educated on the matter but Im sticking to D4 after reading this one post. Thank u all, Ill report back
It might help if you told everyone about your pre-existing problems with your trans before putting Redline in.
Dave at Redline was talking about torque converter clutch shudder which is a clutch inside the torque converter, an issue that sometimes happens with a type F fluid. There has not been a single case of torque converter shudder with this fluid, quite the opposite, it cures shudder in this particular trans. The cure to this problem if it ever happened would be to switch back to a different fluid. No damage happens, it's just annoying.
If your TC went out then it was going out anyway. A fluid with a far superior base oil is not going to make it go out and friction modifiers have absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter going out. I won't even blame this one on Z1 for sure because all the fluid has to do is provide lube and carry heat out of the converter and I'm sure the Z1 did a fair job of this.
You guys make this fluid sound like it's so complicated. It has no FM in it, that's it. The clutches are bathed in oil, this fluid makes them grab harder when applied because it's not as "slippery". It would be the same as letting the clutch out quicker on a manual trans. They grab quicker, they slip less, so they wear less, it's not rocket science. It has absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter.
This is the problem with the internet, an idea is thrown out there, rumors start spreading, and before you know it, that rumor has turned into a fact. I spend way too much time trying to stop the mis-information but it's literally a full time job. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. I use it, I have used it for a long time, at nearly 100,000 miles it shifts better than new.
03-13-2011, 06:19 PM
#38
FWIW my buddy at the local Honda dealership says that he swaps out pressure sensor switches ALL of the time on basically every Honda AT model that has them. So to the OP, your dealer is full of shit.
03-13-2011, 06:41 PM
#39
I just changed to the new honda fluid dew 1 or d1 something like that. I'm doing a 2x3 with honda atf and 1x3 with redline d4.
After I put the new Honda fluid in and drove it around I was really surprised. well right now I am at 75K and changed from original fluid to a 1x3 with Z1 @ 62K. Now it is so much better than when i first put the Z1. The car shifts better and the pick up is so much more.
After I put the new Honda fluid in and drove it around I was really surprised. well right now I am at 75K and changed from original fluid to a 1x3 with Z1 @ 62K. Now it is so much better than when i first put the Z1. The car shifts better and the pick up is so much more.
03-13-2011, 09:52 PM
#40
You're not putting two and two together, you're guessing. Who said you had a torque converter failure, the dealer. Who can not open a trans or cut open a torque convertor or diagnose an internal problem, the dealer.
It might help if you told everyone about your pre-existing problems with your trans before putting Redline in.
Dave at Redline was talking about torque converter clutch shudder which is a clutch inside the torque converter, an issue that sometimes happens with a type F fluid. There has not been a single case of torque converter shudder with this fluid, quite the opposite, it cures shudder in this particular trans. The cure to this problem if it ever happened would be to switch back to a different fluid. No damage happens, it's just annoying.
If your TC went out then it was going out anyway. A fluid with a far superior base oil is not going to make it go out and friction modifiers have absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter going out. I won't even blame this one on Z1 for sure because all the fluid has to do is provide lube and carry heat out of the converter and I'm sure the Z1 did a fair job of this.
You guys make this fluid sound like it's so complicated. It has no FM in it, that's it. The clutches are bathed in oil, this fluid makes them grab harder when applied because it's not as "slippery". It would be the same as letting the clutch out quicker on a manual trans. They grab quicker, they slip less, so they wear less, it's not rocket science. It has absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter.
This is the problem with the internet, an idea is thrown out there, rumors start spreading, and before you know it, that rumor has turned into a fact. I spend way too much time trying to stop the mis-information but it's literally a full time job. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. I use it, I have used it for a long time, at nearly 100,000 miles it shifts better than new.
It might help if you told everyone about your pre-existing problems with your trans before putting Redline in.
Dave at Redline was talking about torque converter clutch shudder which is a clutch inside the torque converter, an issue that sometimes happens with a type F fluid. There has not been a single case of torque converter shudder with this fluid, quite the opposite, it cures shudder in this particular trans. The cure to this problem if it ever happened would be to switch back to a different fluid. No damage happens, it's just annoying.
If your TC went out then it was going out anyway. A fluid with a far superior base oil is not going to make it go out and friction modifiers have absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter going out. I won't even blame this one on Z1 for sure because all the fluid has to do is provide lube and carry heat out of the converter and I'm sure the Z1 did a fair job of this.
You guys make this fluid sound like it's so complicated. It has no FM in it, that's it. The clutches are bathed in oil, this fluid makes them grab harder when applied because it's not as "slippery". It would be the same as letting the clutch out quicker on a manual trans. They grab quicker, they slip less, so they wear less, it's not rocket science. It has absolutely nothing to do with a torque converter.
This is the problem with the internet, an idea is thrown out there, rumors start spreading, and before you know it, that rumor has turned into a fact. I spend way too much time trying to stop the mis-information but it's literally a full time job. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. I use it, I have used it for a long time, at nearly 100,000 miles it shifts better than new.
Sorry if my original post might have come off the wrong way...I appreciate having someone like IHC around to steer me in the right direction every once n a while...thx again.