The RR Journals: Tips on brake bleeding
07-26-2005, 06:18 PM
#1
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
The RR Journals: Tips on brake bleeding
We still need a Tech section for this site - I think there are a few techies in here, right?
Anyway, in lieu of same, here is another Journal entry:
1) The TL's brakes will last longer and provide optimum braking effectiveness if you change out the fluid at least every 2 years.
2) If you decide to go to anything other than the recommended DOT3 fluid, remember that this may require more frequent changes. This is especially true if you go to one of the real high "dry" temp fluids for racing - these really pull water.
3) The best DOT3 known to me (if you want higher boiling temp and decide to forego HG) is Ford's. It was developed to deal with - I shit you not - the tendency of Town Car owners to ride the brake as a footrest. Ford engineers developed a terrific DOT3 which I have sued for years as replacement fluid for Hondas, including my S2000. (DOT4 fluids have different additives, and compatability with all the seals cannot be guaranteed. Many have used it, but I like to give full disclosure so peeps can make informed choices).
4) Do not use DOT5 fluids of any type - ever.
5) When bleeding the brakes, I prefer to use a reverse flow system like the one made by Phoenix Systems - it pushes all debris up to the master cylinder, where it can be seen and
6) DO NOT PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL MORE THAN 1/2 WAY WHEN MANUALLY BLEEDING!!!!!!
I cannot stress this enough - I have had a few S2000 and TL owners call me because they ruined their MC's by pressing the pedal to the floor aggressively. Going much past 1/2 way runs the risk of having the MC's secondary piston push past any sediment or other debris that may have collected at the high point of the system. Doping so may very well damage the seals, causing an internal leak which will require replacement of the MC.
This is another reason I use a power bleeder system, and why I particularly like the Phoenix - by pushing up rather than pulling down the flud at the various brake calipers, any debris, water, deteriorated fluid, etc is pushed up to the MC, where it can easily be seen and removed. If you rely on a conventional "suck" system like a Mityvac (which is a good system, do not get me wrong), there still can be junk int he calipers high spot.
7) A very good, long lasting hi-po fluid is made by the German company Ate (pronounced Ah-tay for your non-Germanics). I like it because it comes in two colors: traditional amber, and blue-dyed blue. They are the same chemistry. The neat thing is that it is easy to tell when one has pulled, sucked or blown (oh yeah, baby) the opld fluid because the color will change in the collector bottle(s).
8) Generally, I recommend leaving it to the dealer - they have the equipment to do a quick, 4-wheel fluid change without any pedal pushing - something that "Joe's 'we service all cars, foreign and domestic" may not.
************************************************** **************
Here are 2 more RR tips for long life (cheap):
1) Using a clean and dedicated turkey baster, pull fluid from the MC once/month. DO NOT GO LOWER than the fluid sensor, so you do not run the risk of introducing air into the system! This will actually extend fluid life, since it will helpremove old fluid, and the "makeup fluid" will actually circulate over time to most areas of the system.
2) To ensure the ABS fluid circulates, keeps the seals and pistons "loose" and pliable, activate the ABS once/month. I do not recommend doing a panic stop in a praking lot. Instead, find a flat surface that has some dirt or preferably some sand.
At about 20 mph, nail it as hard as you can so the ABS activates, lights come on, and you feel the pedal pulsate. Easy, and it will save some rubber that would get eaten by a panic stop.
Hope this is useful.
RR.
Anyway, in lieu of same, here is another Journal entry:
1) The TL's brakes will last longer and provide optimum braking effectiveness if you change out the fluid at least every 2 years.
2) If you decide to go to anything other than the recommended DOT3 fluid, remember that this may require more frequent changes. This is especially true if you go to one of the real high "dry" temp fluids for racing - these really pull water.
3) The best DOT3 known to me (if you want higher boiling temp and decide to forego HG) is Ford's. It was developed to deal with - I shit you not - the tendency of Town Car owners to ride the brake as a footrest. Ford engineers developed a terrific DOT3 which I have sued for years as replacement fluid for Hondas, including my S2000. (DOT4 fluids have different additives, and compatability with all the seals cannot be guaranteed. Many have used it, but I like to give full disclosure so peeps can make informed choices).
4) Do not use DOT5 fluids of any type - ever.
5) When bleeding the brakes, I prefer to use a reverse flow system like the one made by Phoenix Systems - it pushes all debris up to the master cylinder, where it can be seen and
6) DO NOT PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL MORE THAN 1/2 WAY WHEN MANUALLY BLEEDING!!!!!!
I cannot stress this enough - I have had a few S2000 and TL owners call me because they ruined their MC's by pressing the pedal to the floor aggressively. Going much past 1/2 way runs the risk of having the MC's secondary piston push past any sediment or other debris that may have collected at the high point of the system. Doping so may very well damage the seals, causing an internal leak which will require replacement of the MC.
This is another reason I use a power bleeder system, and why I particularly like the Phoenix - by pushing up rather than pulling down the flud at the various brake calipers, any debris, water, deteriorated fluid, etc is pushed up to the MC, where it can easily be seen and removed. If you rely on a conventional "suck" system like a Mityvac (which is a good system, do not get me wrong), there still can be junk int he calipers high spot.
7) A very good, long lasting hi-po fluid is made by the German company Ate (pronounced Ah-tay for your non-Germanics). I like it because it comes in two colors: traditional amber, and blue-dyed blue. They are the same chemistry. The neat thing is that it is easy to tell when one has pulled, sucked or blown (oh yeah, baby) the opld fluid because the color will change in the collector bottle(s).
8) Generally, I recommend leaving it to the dealer - they have the equipment to do a quick, 4-wheel fluid change without any pedal pushing - something that "Joe's 'we service all cars, foreign and domestic" may not.
************************************************** **************
Here are 2 more RR tips for long life (cheap):
1) Using a clean and dedicated turkey baster, pull fluid from the MC once/month. DO NOT GO LOWER than the fluid sensor, so you do not run the risk of introducing air into the system! This will actually extend fluid life, since it will helpremove old fluid, and the "makeup fluid" will actually circulate over time to most areas of the system.
2) To ensure the ABS fluid circulates, keeps the seals and pistons "loose" and pliable, activate the ABS once/month. I do not recommend doing a panic stop in a praking lot. Instead, find a flat surface that has some dirt or preferably some sand.
At about 20 mph, nail it as hard as you can so the ABS activates, lights come on, and you feel the pedal pulsate. Easy, and it will save some rubber that would get eaten by a panic stop.
Hope this is useful.
RR.
07-26-2005, 07:17 PM
#3
Well, you can screw up a number of cars pushing old dirty fluid back into the abs system.
Any car that used the tieves system (Jaguar and Cadillac) can have
severe problems from pushing the fluid back in, the abs valves would stick
and under normal braking would work fine, but under fast (panic) braking
would pop open an abs valve for one front wheel and the car would pull
STRONGLY to one side.
Many older Jaguars had this problem when people pushed the pistons
in to make room for new pads.
I myself will NEVER push old dirty fluid back into the brake system, but
open the bleed nipples and let the old fluid out, then bleed the brakes normaly
running at least a cup of fluid through each wheel starting with the wheel farthest
from the master cylinder and working twards it.
I have seem brake fluid that looked like mud come out of some calipers, you
want to push that into the abs system???
Brett
Any car that used the tieves system (Jaguar and Cadillac) can have
severe problems from pushing the fluid back in, the abs valves would stick
and under normal braking would work fine, but under fast (panic) braking
would pop open an abs valve for one front wheel and the car would pull
STRONGLY to one side.
Many older Jaguars had this problem when people pushed the pistons
in to make room for new pads.
I myself will NEVER push old dirty fluid back into the brake system, but
open the bleed nipples and let the old fluid out, then bleed the brakes normaly
running at least a cup of fluid through each wheel starting with the wheel farthest
from the master cylinder and working twards it.
I have seem brake fluid that looked like mud come out of some calipers, you
want to push that into the abs system???
Brett
07-27-2005, 12:09 PM
#4
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
Have you examined the Phoenix system and how it operates? Does not sound like it. It is widely used in the high dollar sports car and racing crowd I hang with as a hobby.
http://www.phxsyss.com/products.asp?id=1
Might want to do some research and thinking before spouting.
http://www.phxsyss.com/products.asp?id=1
Might want to do some research and thinking before spouting.
07-27-2005, 03:46 PM
#5
Yes, nice trick looking expensive gizmos, but I would only use them after getting the dirt and rust out of the system.
They look great for getting the air out, but wont get dirt out.
I have had abs systems apart, the valves have very fine screens protecting
the valves themselves, and you will NOT push much dirt through them.
So with the systems that push fluid into the caliper, the dirt will just go to the screens and stop.
Some of the really fine particles may make it through the screens and into the abs
valves, and will LIKELY pass through the system, but lots will stop
at the screens.
You will get moisture and air out, but not the dirt.
After having the systems apart, I would rather get the dirt out at the caliper,
where most of it originates.
Now on new cars, new brake systems, on cars that DO have the fluid changed
often, it would likely be ok with the small amount of dirt/rust/etc in the system.
You wont get it out, but it wont likely cause problems.
Take a look at the Jag-lovers web site for the old XJ40 Jaguars, lots of
abs problems after fluid was pushed back into the system.
Brett
They look great for getting the air out, but wont get dirt out.
I have had abs systems apart, the valves have very fine screens protecting
the valves themselves, and you will NOT push much dirt through them.
So with the systems that push fluid into the caliper, the dirt will just go to the screens and stop.
Some of the really fine particles may make it through the screens and into the abs
valves, and will LIKELY pass through the system, but lots will stop
at the screens.
You will get moisture and air out, but not the dirt.
After having the systems apart, I would rather get the dirt out at the caliper,
where most of it originates.
Now on new cars, new brake systems, on cars that DO have the fluid changed
often, it would likely be ok with the small amount of dirt/rust/etc in the system.
You wont get it out, but it wont likely cause problems.
Take a look at the Jag-lovers web site for the old XJ40 Jaguars, lots of
abs problems after fluid was pushed back into the system.
Brett
07-27-2005, 07:25 PM
#6
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I recommended a MityVac type suction device to get the dirty fluid out at the calipers. This device also vacuums the fluid out of the master cylinders before refilling and starting the bleed process.
On both my cars and bike, the clutch slave cylinders get really dirty and I would not like to push that dirt back up into the master cylinder.
There are pressure systems that push the fluid to the calipers, but I have never seen one in person. Some bikers swear by the available speed bleed nipples (I forget the brand name).
On both my cars and bike, the clutch slave cylinders get really dirty and I would not like to push that dirt back up into the master cylinder.
There are pressure systems that push the fluid to the calipers, but I have never seen one in person. Some bikers swear by the available speed bleed nipples (I forget the brand name).
07-27-2005, 08:30 PM
#7
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ATE super blue..motul..the castrol one..
those are all VERY good. they have really high boiling temps, but have a tendency to attract water, which is why you would have to change them out every year, but road racers use brake fluids such as these. there are other brands, but those work really really well.
those are all VERY good. they have really high boiling temps, but have a tendency to attract water, which is why you would have to change them out every year, but road racers use brake fluids such as these. there are other brands, but those work really really well.
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07-27-2005, 09:04 PM
#8
AZ Community Team
Castrol LMA (Low Moisture Absorbsion) is also great brake fluid, been using it for many years on cars and motorcycles.
It's DOT4 which is compatible for Honda/Acura products.
Another brake bleeding tip is to lightly tap the sides of the brake calipers with a soft mallet to help bubbles rise up.
It's DOT4 which is compatible for Honda/Acura products.
Another brake bleeding tip is to lightly tap the sides of the brake calipers with a soft mallet to help bubbles rise up.
07-27-2005, 11:20 PM
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I agree on most counts... especially ATE. I run ATE Super Blue (DOT 5.1) and it hasn't failed me yet. And yeah, it's really easy to tell when the new fluid is coming out due to the color difference. 
Good post, RR. I haven't tried the Pheonix system yet, and it's kind of against conventional thinking (sucking the old fluid up to the top, not pushing it out). But it sounds interesting; I'm going check it out.
Good post, RR. I haven't tried the Pheonix system yet, and it's kind of against conventional thinking (sucking the old fluid up to the top, not pushing it out). But it sounds interesting; I'm going check it out.
07-28-2005, 07:34 AM
#10
I used to use valvoline synthetic dot 4 brake fluid, as it seemed to hold
up better then the gt-lma, it did not turn dark as fast.
About $7.00 a quart.
I dont know about the synthetic part, all brake fluid is likely synthetic.
I personaly dont drive hard or fast enough to stress brake fluid much,
and do bleed a cup through each wheel every brake pad change, and
I like to change the pads at about 1/2 wear, the tires also.
Nothing nicer than new brakes and tires!
I never had problems with regular bleeding, but once the dirt is out, the
pressure systems look like a good thing to use if you have lots
of extra money to spend on one, and garage space to store it.
Amazing how the special tools for cars and bikes pile up in the garage...
What with the blasting cabinet and air compressor, motorcycles, its getting
hard to get the CAR in the garage!
Brett
up better then the gt-lma, it did not turn dark as fast.
About $7.00 a quart.
I dont know about the synthetic part, all brake fluid is likely synthetic.
I personaly dont drive hard or fast enough to stress brake fluid much,
and do bleed a cup through each wheel every brake pad change, and
I like to change the pads at about 1/2 wear, the tires also.
Nothing nicer than new brakes and tires!
I never had problems with regular bleeding, but once the dirt is out, the
pressure systems look like a good thing to use if you have lots
of extra money to spend on one, and garage space to store it.
Amazing how the special tools for cars and bikes pile up in the garage...
What with the blasting cabinet and air compressor, motorcycles, its getting
hard to get the CAR in the garage!
Brett
07-28-2005, 10:10 AM
#11
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Brettg
I never had problems with regular bleeding, but once the dirt is out, the
pressure systems look like a good thing to use if you have lots
of extra money to spend on one, and garage space to store it.
Amazing how the special tools for cars and bikes pile up in the garage...
What with the blasting cabinet and air compressor, motorcycles, its getting
hard to get the CAR in the garage!
Brett
pressure systems look like a good thing to use if you have lots
of extra money to spend on one, and garage space to store it.
Amazing how the special tools for cars and bikes pile up in the garage...
What with the blasting cabinet and air compressor, motorcycles, its getting
hard to get the CAR in the garage!
Brett
But I agree that conventional bleeding is generally OK, I was just trying to cover a number of options, and keep up with some new trends. Plus, give some freebie advice to boot.
I also have an expensive gear oil "syringe" - made in Germany, but it sure beats those little pumps from the 'Zone. I even have the Acura ABS bleeder/filler tool designed just for the NSX's ABS - these tools are not for show, they pay for themselves by either reducing the time of service, or allowing me to do a better job than the corner service station. That is why I work as a hobby on speciality cars for a premium - there are some peeps who appreciate having someone with speciality experience and tools work on their cars. In several cases, I have found answers to problems that evaded the entire Acura service chain, in one case pulling a part off of my car and putting on a customer's - boy, was he happy. Sent me a bottle of Dom that made the wife very happy.
RE: the DOT3/4 issue. They are generally compatible,, but Honda makes no guarantee about seal compatibility or service life. I also mentioned the issue that some hi-po fluids demand more frequent change-out, which later posters echoed. Here is some reference info from the RR "archives".
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm
************************************************** ************
For all you 6MT guys:
Do not forget to change and bleed out the clutch hydraulic fluid as well. Experience among us S2K'ers is that that fluid degenerates even faster than the brake fluid. Use the same tips/cautions/caveats.
07-28-2005, 03:21 PM
#12
I never think tools are a bad investment, as long as they dont bite into the budget so much you can not afford new tires and brakes, and other goodies.
The problem with me is storing them around the house, then finding them when you need them.
What I really need is a bigger garrage!
I tend to be real carefull about the fluids I put in a car, some suff really interacts with other stuff, etc.
I need to order my shop manual, I have not even looked at what the clutch uses.
On some cars, its brake fluid, they sure make a wide range of crap,
power steering fluid, atf, HSMO (mineral oil), dot 3, dot 4, etc.
My wifes Lincoln LS had HSMO driving the mechanical radiator fan, in a pump
and hydrolic motor setup, that came from Jaguar most likely, a really
wild setup if you was to ask me, and quite a good idea as long as it dont leak...
Brett
The problem with me is storing them around the house, then finding them when you need them.
What I really need is a bigger garrage!
I tend to be real carefull about the fluids I put in a car, some suff really interacts with other stuff, etc.
I need to order my shop manual, I have not even looked at what the clutch uses.
On some cars, its brake fluid, they sure make a wide range of crap,
power steering fluid, atf, HSMO (mineral oil), dot 3, dot 4, etc.
My wifes Lincoln LS had HSMO driving the mechanical radiator fan, in a pump
and hydrolic motor setup, that came from Jaguar most likely, a really
wild setup if you was to ask me, and quite a good idea as long as it dont leak...
Brett
07-28-2005, 03:35 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by Road Rage
For all you 6MT guys: Do not forget to change and bleed out the clutch hydraulic fluid
07-28-2005, 04:52 PM
#14
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by JackSprat01
Damn, not ANOTHER fluid to keep track of? That one never even crossed my mind. Hell, I've never even replaced brake fluid unless I blew a line or master cylinder. Good tip though, I'll let the dealer take care of that one every other year or so. Thanks RR!
I would not be anxious over the 6MT. The S2000 seems to degrade clutch fluid very quickly for some reason. Do not fret, JS, and do the turkey baster thing as an interim. Maybe in the Fall of next year, we can check/top off your tranny fluid, and do the clutch fluid - it is no big deal, and whether I suck (Mityvac) or blow (Phoenix) I assure you that that badazz black TL of yours will be well served (mnaybe serviced is more appropriate context).
Hell, I went to the fridge today and found that the wife had drank my last beer - men have killed for less. I almost called you up. BTW, how is that GMS FM workin' out for ya?
07-28-2005, 06:50 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Road Rage
That's me - gettin everyone to think the unthinkable.
BTW, how is that GMS FM workin' out for ya?
BTW, how is that GMS FM workin' out for ya?
Besides, I think that green machine of yours is due for a pollen filter (ATP deluxe carbon micro filters already on order) so I'll bring one down as promised. Er, maybe two as I'll have a matching one that might need to be installed as well.
Oh yeah, and if that $500 floor jack needs some excercise, I'd be happy to use it to rotate my tires. There's one thing I can do myself!
Funny you mention the GMS-FM. Check out my post on last weekend's road trip.
07-28-2005, 07:25 PM
#16
AZ Community Team
One other tip on (Honda/Acura's at least ) is to remove the plastic strainer/screen in the plastic master cylinder fluid reservoir. After time they accumlate all sorts of stuff and crud. Carefully remove, clean with brake cleaner, dry with compressed air (or let sit for ~10 minutes) and replace.
Alot of excellent tips in this thread from RR and others. I agree with BrettG in that to bleed out through the brake calipers and not through the master cylinder. The VSA modulator is a very expensive part and keeping debris out of there is important for long service life. Also on 6MT models make sure to use both caliper bleeder valves (outer first, then inner) on the Brembo's.
In bleeding tools I've used friend's Mityvac's and pressure bleeders (that go over the master cylinder reservior, but still prefer to bleed with the master cylinder technique, it's simplier and I've gotten the best results that way.
FWIW the last Champ/CART race I went to was a decade ago and while strolling the pit lane noticed the Newman/Hass crew bleeding the brakes on a Lola with no wheels on race stands with a crewman in the cockpit, the another crewman at the caliper with a wrench and bleed hose/bottle going "pump....hold......release".
Fortunately the TL uses one brake fluid reservoir and does not require separate ABS bleeding which required two special Acura tools for older models.
Alot of excellent tips in this thread from RR and others. I agree with BrettG in that to bleed out through the brake calipers and not through the master cylinder. The VSA modulator is a very expensive part and keeping debris out of there is important for long service life. Also on 6MT models make sure to use both caliper bleeder valves (outer first, then inner) on the Brembo's.
In bleeding tools I've used friend's Mityvac's and pressure bleeders (that go over the master cylinder reservior, but still prefer to bleed with the master cylinder technique, it's simplier and I've gotten the best results that way.
FWIW the last Champ/CART race I went to was a decade ago and while strolling the pit lane noticed the Newman/Hass crew bleeding the brakes on a Lola with no wheels on race stands with a crewman in the cockpit, the another crewman at the caliper with a wrench and bleed hose/bottle going "pump....hold......release".
Fortunately the TL uses one brake fluid reservoir and does not require separate ABS bleeding which required two special Acura tools for older models.
07-29-2005, 01:06 PM
#17
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Thanks for the tips and the interesting history behind the Ford brake fluid. This is a job that I've done many times and never enjoyed doing. I now allow the dealer to do if for me. I also figure this also increases the odds of ensuring the fluid is properly disposed of - a task I'd rather not deal with. If I decide to start changing brake fluid myself again in the future, I may give the Phoenix kit a shot. 
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