Road Rage

Per my policy, if I get 5 or more PM's on a topic and have some info to share, I do.

Today's topic, class, is "Do oversize oil filters provide a benefit?".

The answer generally is no, but my final answer is perhaps.

Many people like the notion of a larger filter. On the surface, it looks like a no-brainer. More filter = more oil capacity, which never hurts, as the heat and mechanical stress on the oil are distributed over a greater volume of lubricant, extending its life and SOA (safe operating area).

Plus, the popular notion goes, more filter area will give a buffer against filter clogging and bypassing of the oil.

Well, here are some things to consider before you strap a garbage can under your car.

1) First and foremost, the filter needs to have the same rated PSI for the bypass valve. The bypass valve does not just open up when the filter is clogged, or when engine demand requires more flow than the filter can provide. No, it has another purpose of great importance - it helps modulate the oil pressure, and keep it consistent and within the engineer's design curve over the entire RPM range. I have seen aftermarket filters (even of the same size) that did not have the needed PSI rating, even though they were listed in the mfr's catalog as "compatible" with OEM specs. Of course, Clinton proved that the meaning of "is" may be debatable, so "compatible" may also be up for grabs.

2) Another factor is oil flow rate - a non-Honda filter with lots of surface area may also have smaller oil holes in the inlet, and smaller holes in the interior filter media support metal. High capacity but poor flow can result in damage to both the bearings and the short block.

3) Filter media fracture - I have cut opened literally hundreds of oil filters (I have a special aircraft mechanics tool, as you fly-boys will attest to the fact that oil system study is important to safe operation of aircraft - in the air, if the engine fails, bad things happen rather quickly. In the car world, you just end up by the side of the road with your hood up, looking perplexed and panicked). In about 10% of the filters, I have found tears or gaping fractures in the filter media. This can result from a number of things: highly viscous oil causing damage at startup in very cold climates; poor filter design; delayed maintenance, causing clogging of the filter medium and/or bypass valve, and other factors. Using a filter with unknown pressure response can result in filter element fracture.

So should you use an oversize filter? Perhaps. I do not know the spec for Honda's TL filter, but it certainly is dinky. I would replace it at every oil change. It is not worth a few bucks to cheap out on this, since the filter media is small, and may clog, allowing unfiltered oil to circulate freely.

Here is an excellent link I hope still works - to the Taurus SHO club, where I was a meber and active investigator of the wonders of that Yamaha V-6:
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart3.htm

cvajs

snip
hence why i use a 5/5/5 oil change policy on any new car. new car engines are mass produced just like the pretzels you eat. to help guard against machining fragments from tearing into the filter i change the oil at 500,1000,1500 miles on dino oil, and switch to full synth at 1500.

as for bigger filters, there will be less psi on the filter media which can help guard against rips or fractures. a larger filter can also go longer to reach the same psi drop that a smaller filter has, this means the larger filter has indeed trapped more dirt.

this is not in reply to RR, more dirt does not mean better filtration !! better filtration is the sole function of the media and design of the filter. WIX is a very good filter in it's media and design.

thanks RR for this good info.

Hybrid

RR-

How much dirt and crud actually gets collected by an oil filter in a modern, well maintained engine? I suspect it's very little. Engines are pretty well sealed and tolerances are tight. The metals that are wearing are generally of such small particle size that a filter might not pick them up (which is why oil analysis will detect them - they're not stuck in the filter). I'd guess that an engine could actually survive a long, long time with no oil filter, although I'd never attempt something like that.

Brokedoc

Your 5/5/5 policy is an outdated myth that doesn't apply to most production cars today and in Honda engines, is actually BAD for the engine.

As I understand it, most engines manufactured today have "production" oil flushed through them to get rid of large debris before they are installed into the car. In Honda/Acura engines, the first fill of oil also contains special additives that HELP the break-in process. To change the oil too soon robs the engine of the benefits of these additives.

Click for Acura's Ownerlink FAQ. To enter you must register for Acura's Ownerlink. Here are some excerpts:

cvajs

the flush you speak of is not the crud i reference. the fragments i speak of are those that reach the filter during the period the engine parts seat. perhaps fragments that break off after a few heat cycles, etc. i suspect the flush you mention does a very good job of getting the cavities clean, but it does not get everything. i invite any new car owner to put a magnetic drain plug in soon after you get the car, then see for yourself. my 02 Tacoma had approx 1 ounce of metal fragments stuck to the magnetic drain plug on the rear differential, and that was when i dropped the oil at around 5k miles (manual suggests 40k before changing the diff oil).

as for oil additives, why would they add additives??? engines will seat themselves just fine on either full synth or dino oil. i keep seeing posts about additives to the oil but not one post as to exactly what it is. i doubt they add stuff to accellerate the seating process as there is no reason to do so. i know i use special moly lubes on cam lobes & bearings during my V8 assemblies, but this is only for the 1st start up when the oil pump has not yet pumped and filled the oil galleries. after about 1 minute of oil pressure up, the engine idle no load is brought up to 3-4k rpm for about 30 minutes, at that time all of the componnents have found their "home" and will continue to seat over time.

i never said my 5/5/5 method is highly adopted, i said that's my preference, and it simply does only good for any new engine.

i would certainly like to see a oil filter analysis from a new TL that has used the Ownerlink recommendations for 1st oil change. RoadRage, are you the aviation person who does filter analysis, can you do an analysis on a TL filter???

Road Rage

cvajs: Your post is passionate, but misinformed. The break-in oil Honda uses is unquestionably unique in its add pack. If you refer to my link to the work I have done on the S2KI.com site from 3G Garage (The RR Journals links), you will find an ACTUAL ANALYSIS of the factory fill oil from a Honda Accord. It is high in specific anti-wear additives, including molybdenum disulphide. This is not found at nearly the same levels in any commercially available oil known to most here.

I have also posted that for folks like you who want to change oil early out of habit or whatever reason, or in my case in the S2000, because of a badly installed and leaking oil bolt, I did an analysis of Valvoline Maxlife Engine Protector, and it has chemistry quite close to Honda's. I would recommend to anyone that has changed out the factory oil early to consider adding a bottle of it to whatever you threw in your car.

Honda engineers are not idiots, and their Mugen prepared F1 engines are arguably the best in the world. 2nd guessing by owners is their right, but a crap shoot IMO.

As to the issue of break-in with synthetic, yes it does occur, but takes a bit longer - the reason it is factory fill is for a variety of reasons: oil cooling system cost reduction, need to maximize fuel economy, and environmental (Green) pressures. The Corvette went to Mobil1 one first in the 1992 LT1 nbecause the reverse flow coolant in the heads resulted in high sump temps, and the external oil cooler was a costly and leak-prone system. In Aston-Martins and the Mercs, they need every benefit they can get in the EPA emissions and fuel economy testing, as they are gass guzzlers.

I do plan to do an oil analysis on my first drain (the factory fill) - the filter is so dinky in circumference that I have to figure out a way to open it without adding metal fragments which would skew the test results (my aero tool will cut small filters, but the TL filter is really dinky).

I am going to determine the PSI rating of the TL filter, then consider using the S2000 filter developed for the 2004 S2000, which is an extremely high quality piece - Honda found that its attempt to use standard filters across the line (including the S2000) did not make it. They developed a PCX prefix filter which corresponds to other S2000 parts with PCX in front of them, denoting special use.

Brokedoc

RR,

I understand how synthetics resist degradation better at high temps and have better additives and fewer contaminants, but why do they improve MPG? If you have a 10W30 syn and compare it to a 10W30 dino, aren't they both the same viscosity? Otherwise, what use are the ratings?

cvajs

snip
so why would they want to slow the seat process by adding anti-wear agents ???

are you saying that their oil+additives actually seats faster then dino or synth oil alone?

i don't get the purpose of the additives. i'll bet the molybdenum disulphide is the pre-lube they use to build the engine, same stuff i use on my V8's.

Road Rage

Well, we are getting into headache territory. The reason is that one wants the asperities to shear off, rather than break off - to be "polished" rather than left jagged. (These are laymen terms for a complex physical property of metal). You must understand that the friction at the ASPERITY level can be hot enough to melt the high spots. Ragged asperities can lead to damage on the oil control rings.

The idea is that that EP (extreme pressure) additives like moly work at the molecular level to fill in the "valleys" between the asperities, while forming a friction reduced sliding effect, so the honing can occur rather than breakage or melting, which can lead to a rather poor surface on the piston skirts, the oil control rings, and even the cylinder walls.

I can say all this with some authority based on empiric evidence and my training - the empiric evidence is that EP additives are almost never added to engine oil, as the pressures are not high enough to require them. EP additives are usually in trannies and differentials, where the PSI are high enough to require them. The fact that an EP additive is in the Honda factory fill at high levels makes the case that the engineers are indeed trying to ensure a quality break-in, of the nature I described.

As to your speculation that it is the result of engine assembly grease, you have absolutely no evidence of that - when I toured the AMG engine facility in Germany, I saw them assemble an E55 engine using only engine oil. Zero assembly lube. Plus, Mugen (Honda's racing supplier) markets a moly engine additive. Seeing a pattern?
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/product.asp?product=20
"Prevents mechanical loss of engine power and reduces mechanical noise.Even with racing engines built with highly precise components, moving parts such as valves and pistons cannot escape from friction loss. Molybdenum, which is a major ingredient of MT105, quickly penetrates into the metal friction surface. This makes a smooth metal surface by forming a strong lubricating layer, which in turn reduces friction resistance and minimizes loss of engine power. By holding the increase of metal surface friction temperature it stabilizes oil temperature, reduces metal friction noise, and improves engine durability." This writeup parallels what I posted - nreak-in and racing may be different, but the issues at the nanotribologic level are the same. Enough!


For some pictures of how LE does it (using Boron), go to www.le-inc.com and look for the section on Monolec, one of their proprietary additives - it forms a singular (mono-molecular) film to create the result I previously described - the pictures of the before and after piston skirts are quite dramatic.

Again, all of this is explained in The Oil Journals. I hope this is helpful, because it is as deep as I plan to go - I keep repeating the same posts over and over again, and "I've got blisters on my fingers!". (a la John Lennon).

cvajs

hmm, sounds like that STP stuff i see on the shelf at wal-mart

i've seen Nascar engine break-ins, they run full oil pressure and spin the engine with no plugs for a period of time.

none of the high peformance guides i have ever mention adding Moly for longevity or better power by filling in the "valleys". the key to longevity is a balanced engine with matched components.

cheers.
ps, i work as a consultant at MBUSA in Montvale NJ, i'll get some info from those guys on what oil they put in MB's

WlcTL

any1 try the k&n filter for the 04tl i took a look at it today and it seemed ok expensive thou bout the same as a mobil 1 filter

Road Rage

MB uses Mobil 1. As to what "others" do, I cannot say - I take a scientific position, add my educational backgroundf, and reinforce it with connections I have at Honda Engineering in California. They recommend a procedure and a break-in oil, I gotta go with their subject matter expertise. Our engines are not blueprinted, just made exceptionally well. The Honda tolerance for bearings (I know a supplier) is the toughest in the industry.

synoil

Road Rage,
I too was a member of the SHO club, I had a white '90.
Craig

tmitch2315

Wow, Road Rage. Great stuff. Did my first oil change, which I always do myself, at 6000. Hope Fram is a good product. Thanks

Road Rage

Fram is a very poorly made filter. It uses lousy cardboard end caps, a cheap rubber valve gasket, etc.

Stick with the Honda, or a Purolator, or an STP/Mobil1, which are made by Champion. Motorcraft also makes a good filter (sourced from Purolator).

Again, if the PSI of the bypass valve is not correct, you could be doing your engine harm.

http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/old_filters.shtml

Note that I do not agree with the author on the oversize issue, as he missed the salient points on proper pressure. Also, Honda has improved its filters, which for a while were Canadian Frams by all accounts - the S2000 one is excellent. I have not cut open a TL filter yet.

tmitch2315

Bye, Bye Fram. Thanks

cvajs

do some research on WIX (dana) brand filters. they are just as good as the mobil1's and purolator's but alot less expensive.

TBone2004

Just because this thread topic always travels the same road - it is usually at this point of this much debated topic where I speak up to confuse those who are already unsure - while I have been persuaded to stop using FRAM (due to members of this board and the many informative articles posted) - sorry Dad, don't be mad.

However, just for those of you who like my Dad use Fram or similar type filters - please, please, PLEASE - do not lose sleep over this stuff. Every car my Dad has owned - he changed oil every 3k or 5k and always used a FRAM filter. Never ever, ever have we had a problem. Each car gets well over 200k miles and at least 12-15 years old.

I am not doubting the validity of the better products - hell, otherwise I'd still be buying VCR tapes and not DVD's. But to anyone stressing over this topic - don't. I enjoy reading the stuff about this topic - afterall, I am a Consumer Reports type of guy. Just take some of the findings with a grain of salt and do not fear that you have ruined your engine because of a early oil change or using the big orange can.

cvajs

chances of damage likely slim, but think of these things like insurance. the cheapo's will fail when you don't want them to, possibly allowing damage to occur, all because of a $5 part. i just prefer to have a better part in the critical locations.

cheers

Tedanddenise

I, I'm sure among others, certainly enjoy these oil discussions. We should pay for them (don't get any ideas - that was just tongue in cheek ) - the knowledge presented here is quite instructive and I find it excrutiatingly enjoyable - THANKS RR FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND YOUR SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

PoochaKannInc

Excruciatingly enjoyable? I've never heard of excruciating and enjoyable in the same sentence.

And Road Rage:
When you do end up taking apart the TL filter, I'd be very interested to read what you observe. Thanks.

TLGator

I suppose a masochist would use that phrase.

bfogarty

So Road Rage is 3,000 a good compromise to let the factory fill in before switching to synthetic?

Aegir

It seems highly unlikely that engineers would rely on a cheap bypass valve in a $5 OEM oil filter to modulate oil system pressure. The filter bypass valve should only lift if differential pressure across the filter gets too high. By opening, the bypass would protect the filter element from damage and maintain oil flow. High inlet pressure, a clogged filter, and cold oil seem like the only scenarios where this could occur. High inlet pressure seems unlikely because the pump has its own relief valve to modulate oil system pressure. A clogged oil filter seems unlikely with appropriate change intervals. In a cold start, if the oil is cold enough that the filter represents enough restriction to lift the bypass, filter discharge pressure would be restored once the bypass lifts. In this case, different bypass valve pressure ratings would influence filter discharge pressure up to the relief valve setpoing. So if the oil pump was producing 60psi, Filter A with a bypass set at 10psid could produce a filter discharge pressure of 50psi while Filter B with a bypass set at 15psid could produce a filter discharge pressure of 45psi. There is a difference here, but it would only be encountered in a narrow set of circumstances. Further, how much does a 5psi difference in gallery pressure really influence bearing pressures when oil hole diameters, bearing clearances, and oil viscosity are accounted for? I guess the point of all this is that I question the criticality of the bypass valve rating - especially when you consider that it is the setpoint for a $.50 lift valve that doesn't seem capable, in my estimation, of producing better than about -3/+5 psid accuracy. My fluid mechanics are pretty rusty, so feel free to school me.

fla-tls

I agree with you. Prior to joining this site I used Fram filters exclusively on the previous 4 cars I've owned. I sold my last car to a friend at about 100k miles. He's now at 130k with no engine problems whatsoever.

Having said that - I'll spend an extra couple of dollars now to get a good filter. I currently use Amsoil filters which is probably overkill given the price. I've thought about buying Baldwin filters from a supplier for half the price (since they are the ones that make the Amsoil filters). I've seen pictures of cut open Baldwin & Amsoil filters; they are identical.

fla-tls

Here's a link to a Baldwin and Amsoil filter cut open (link)

And here's where you can get the stock baldwin filter for $6.67 (link)

TBone2004

Oh I agree 100%. 35K car - and you can't spring for a higher end filter ? I will def. go a couple more bucks ....cause you know my Fram is gonna fail now!

Aegir

Any comments? Agree/disagree?

Road Rage

My concerns about any aftermarket, non-OEM filter are its flow capability, and the PSI rating of the bypass valve. The valve does more than just open or close - it is not binary, but does modulate oil pressure. I would not use an Amsoil filter unless i planned to keep the engine below 3000 RPM, as i have no idea what its specs are, and whatever additional filtering capacity it provides is not needed by me anyeway, since I change the filter at every oil change.

Here is some good info (it applies to the Yamaha V6 used in the SHO, but the concepts have applicability outside that engine):
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart3.htm

deandorsey

oh man- i wish i didnt read that....

rontatuaf

Since I work as the engineering manager for a filter manufacturer I won't offer my opinion about which filters are good and bad I will only say that a properly engineered product will consider all deisgn parameters before selecting the specifications for their product. Since this thread began as a discussion of filter can size I'll address my response to what typically motivates different manufacturers to use varying can diameters for the same application. Simply stated the amount and type of media a manufacturer selects is usually the determing factor in the filter can size. In determining the type and amount of media put in a filter the service requirements for that product have to be considered.
But before I delve into the esoterics of filter design a little truth telling is in order. Some manufacturers use a larger or smaller diameter can simply because that is what their production line equipment is designed to produce. It may be nothing more magical than that.
Medias, or more properly medium, are made to meet multiple requirements. The flow restriction of a filter media is referred to as the permeability of that grade and is the result of the fiber density, the fiber type, the fiber depth and the fiber diameter, or denier. The burst strength of a media is another industry standard that a properly engineered product is designed to consider. The test for this specification is referred to as the media Mullen Burst Strength. The product engineer will determine which service considerations are to be addressed with a specific product, such as long service life or high collection efficiency and the operating pressures. Invariably as in all things engineered when one issue is addressed there is often an adverse impact on some other area of performance.
If a high efficiency media is selected that media is probably more restrictive than a media with a lower efficiency and so in order to achieve the same contaminant holding capacity at a comparable operating pressure loss across the filter more of the high efficiency media will be required. There are 2 ways to increase media area in a filter. One is by increasing the number of pleats in the filter. If the pleat density, the number of pleats per inch of circumference, is already high this approach can lead to too tightly packed pleats and cause high operating restriction. To alleviate this condition the engineer may opt to increase the filter diameter to open the pleat spacing (the same number of pleats in a larger diameter has a wider spacing).
Another approach to increase the media area is to increase the pleat height by making the pleats longer. 100 pleats of 1 inch height has more surface area than 100 pleats of 1/2 inch height. If you keep the same outside diameter when increasing the pleat height the the inside diameter must decrease and this condition can lead to increased flow velocities and decreased efficiency. To avoid that the engineer may opt to increase the filter diameter. But a longer pleat also has more deflection in the pleat wall. Too much deflection can cause the pleat walls to collapse and result in high flow restriction.
All this is a long winded way of saying that there can be a number of reasons why some filters may have a larger diameter than others. No conclusion can be made on the effacacy of the product based soley on this parameter.
One indisputable fact is that every time you change ANY filter (air, oil or fuel) that new filter will be the least efficient that it will ever be in its entire, normal service life. A filter efficiency curve starts out very low and increases as the filter accumulates a "cake". This cake of collected particles is what actually collects the majority of the contaminants passing through the filter. So if you change oil frequently, say every 2500-3000 miles and you change filters every time you are never achieving the maximum possible efficiency of your filter.
Since I'm a poor typist I'll leave that discussion for a later time.

Repecat

Rontatuaf: Thanks for the explanation....very informative. I hope you can post the remainder of your discussion soon, as I as well as many others on this board, are "all ears" when it comes to maintenance articles for our TLs. I ceased to be anal about oil and filters a long time ago, but I still want to provide my cars with a reasonably high degree of care. Cheers.

fla-tls

I tried to be "all ears" on this forum, but I didn't really hear much. I've switched to "all eyes."

Road Rage

Isn't the plural of medium, media?

I agree with rontatauf's comments - the old "wisdom" that bigger is better is wrong for a variety of reasons - I support the OE is best in many things, esp brakes and oil filters, based on the flow issue, the PSI rating of the bypass, and the effect of the valve on oil pressure across the RPM range. I personally would not recommend anything unless I verified that "first, it did no harm". That is why I have stayed clear of the Amsoil filter recommendation, except for farm equipment. Medium fracture is a real issue, esp when people fool around with non-OEM canister sizes. I have a special gizmo to cut open filters designed for aircraft, and have opened hundreds in my time. Usually, all is well - but occasionally, I do see a displaced end cap (on Frams mostly), or a crack in the pleat edging. Although today's low vis oils do not cause this anymore, oil pressure is highest at start-up, and if the oil has thickened (or worse yet, someone has put "race formula 20w50" in their engine), the surge pressure can be high enough to blow out the filter medium.

The TL has its filter mounting on the end of a long aluminum casting - it is folly to think that after going to that expense, they would cheap put on the filter, especially since scales of economy would argue in the reverse - it would be cheaper for them to go the old route, where they tried to make one (filter) size fits all. They even did that for the S2000, but apparently that must have caused some engine problems, because in 2004 the S2000 got its own, unique filter, with the fabled PCX prefix (an S2000 part protocol).

Road Rage

...and that would be because...??????????

Knowledge is power, baby, and I am Superman!!! Krypton Rules! Where's Lois?

P.S. Can Superman orgasm, and if so, would it blow his partner to pieces? Inquiring minds want to know! Too bad there is not a Tech forum here.

MisterLawyer

I think he would blow his partner to pieces.

Two examples to support this point:

1) If you saw the last episode of Smallville, Clark (Superman) accidentally tripped during a football game and while off balance, he struck an opponent which resulted in physical injuries significantly greater than what would normally be expected from such a blow. While engaged in sex, Clark would be similarly out of control, and thus his propensity to cause injury to those around him would increase.

2) In one of the old Superman comic books, Superman drank thousands of gallons of water from a lake and then flew to a forest fire where he sprayed the water all over the fire and put it out. It only took like ten seconds for him to expel thousands of gallons of water from his mouth. I think that if Superman can blow enough water from his mouth to put out forest fires, he would also be able to eject other fluids rapidly enough from other orifices to cause massive bodily harm.

Just my

synoil

Another factor in OEM filters is the fact that they try to use the same filter in most of their product line thus reducing parts inventory requirements/cost at both the manufacturing end and dealers end.
Not that I think this is bad but it kinda throws a wrench in individual filter design in each engine type
thought.
Craig

Road Rage

The TL, the NSX, and the S2000; each has a unique filter

deandorsey

lol..

because i always take your advise...

and i always use amsoil filters....

i just changed my oil recently, should i change the filter now or wait until the next change??



WOO WOO!

rontatuaf

My 2 typing fingers have recovered adequately for a few more lines of text. I am a product of my college prep school education; lots of philosophy and etc. but nothing practical like typing and shop classes.
Road Rage, the plural of media is medium. In the filter industry it is very rarely used. Most simply refer to "medias".
The fracturing you see when disassembling filters can have multiple causes. If the failed area is along a pleat crest and does not extend down along the pleat sidewall what your seeing is likely poor manufacturing. To stay stiff when saturated with oil filter manufacturers have used media with phenolic resin impregnation. The phenolics hold up well when wetted. Unfortunately they are a pain in the ass to process. First, they can't come from the mill fully cured because they become too stiff to pleat after curing but they still have to be preheated before going into the pleater to soften the fibers. If this isn't done; or if the pleater operator scores the pleat too deeply then the pleats can crack along the crest.
If the manufacturer doesn't fully cure the phenolic resin after pleating the media stays soft and can blow out anywhere in the pleat pack. That's probably one of the more common causes of failure. Phenolic curing is as much art as science. You have to get it hot enough but not too hot, the pleat pack can't be too tight going through the oven or the heat won't penetrate and cure the pack all the way through. Oven temps and dwell times have to be just right and to verify that you have it right you have to pull product off the line to do wet and dry Mullen burst test, tensile strength testing and drip testing with urinal nitrate to assure all the free phenols have been cured out. In other words you have to have a Quality Control program. My company builds to Mil. Specs., we have to get it right, but a lot of commercial companies are not so scrupulous.
Recent years have seen a gradual changing from phenolic resins to acrylics. They're easier to process and don't have the environmental impact of phenols but they're not quite as good.................yet.
Not all manufacturers are as careful with their product engineering as they should be. For such a critical item I would, again, agree with Road Rage and stay with the OE filter. Recover the few extra bucks you'll spend by getting your coffee from Dunkin' Donuts instead of Starbucks just one morning.
Got to go the wife is waiting. Besides, I get to drive.