Rotors warped (for second time) .. need to buy slotted/drilled front rotors...
01-24-2005 | 10:08 PM
#1
Rotors warped (for second time) .. need to buy slotted/drilled front rotors...
Ron A...
I checked the acurazine site (performance parts) .. nothing listed for the 2004 TL (would love to contribute to the site by buying from you).
My dealer told me frankly that the style of my driving will continue to net me warped rotors. So he said honestly, instead of paying for another set of OEM '04 TL rotors, buy slotted/drilled rotors from an aftermarket company and enjoy the added performance and decreased chance of warping.
Anyone know where I can find cross drilled and slotted (and/or) rotors for the 5AT 2004 TL?
Thanks
I checked the acurazine site (performance parts) .. nothing listed for the 2004 TL (would love to contribute to the site by buying from you).
My dealer told me frankly that the style of my driving will continue to net me warped rotors. So he said honestly, instead of paying for another set of OEM '04 TL rotors, buy slotted/drilled rotors from an aftermarket company and enjoy the added performance and decreased chance of warping.
Anyone know where I can find cross drilled and slotted (and/or) rotors for the 5AT 2004 TL?
Thanks
01-24-2005 | 10:41 PM
#4
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Ellicott City, MD
Try www.frozenrotors.com.
These are cryogenically cooled which help reduce warped rotors. My recommendation is to get them slotted, not cross drilled. Cross drilled may look cool, but they are more susceptible to cracking under heavy use. My friend uses them on his Porsche, which he races on the weekends and he does not have any brake problems. Increased pad life is also a benefit.
Take a look at NASCAR brakes. They are slotted, not cross drilled.
These are cryogenically cooled which help reduce warped rotors. My recommendation is to get them slotted, not cross drilled. Cross drilled may look cool, but they are more susceptible to cracking under heavy use. My friend uses them on his Porsche, which he races on the weekends and he does not have any brake problems. Increased pad life is also a benefit.
Take a look at NASCAR brakes. They are slotted, not cross drilled.
01-24-2005 | 10:46 PM
#6
WDP Director of R & D
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Likes: 4
From: Texas
Originally Posted by fast-tl
OMG! Please describe your style of driving and if other components have been equally stressed. I can't imagine that amount of wear could be normal in 21K miles unless you're autocrossing.
My car is primarly for commute purposes and sees less than 10% of it's time in town traffic. The rest is all open road/freeway with very little use of brakes. I can only imagine (and have read) how easily/badly the TL rotors warp under aggressive driving...
PeterUbers,
I haven't really been searching for aftermarket TL stuff as of yet but during your quest for rotors, be sure the rotors are manufacturered by someone other than Acura/Honda.... This sounds like an obvious comment but the reason is I ran into an issue with "aftermarket" rotors for a previous Maxima of mine. I questioned the seller heavily (Stillen.com) to ensure they were premium quality crossdrilled etc.. What I ended up with was a pair of genuine OEM Nissan rotors that were just cross drilled and dipped in anti-corrosion "stuff". Now, if all I was looking for was better cooling that might have been fine. But in that as well as the TL's issue, I wanted a premium rotor manufactured out of hopefully better steel/specifications etc.. I returned the rotors due to the $300+ pricetag and not wanting to take the chance with another Nissan rotor whether crossdrilled or not...
Just my 2c's
Keep us posted...
01-24-2005 | 10:59 PM
#7
professional TL driver
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
From: Tampa, FL
Originally Posted by joseph_99tl
even with slotted....if you ever get them turned...u lose the slot.
i would get some brembo oe.
i would get some brembo oe.
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01-24-2005 | 11:01 PM
#8
professional TL driver
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
From: Tampa, FL
Originally Posted by stevenr
Try www.frozenrotors.com.
These are cryogenically cooled which help reduce warped rotors. My recommendation is to get them slotted, not cross drilled. Cross drilled may look cool, but they are more susceptible to cracking under heavy use. My friend uses them on his Porsche, which he races on the weekends and he does not have any brake problems. Increased pad life is also a benefit.
Take a look at NASCAR brakes. They are slotted, not cross drilled.
These are cryogenically cooled which help reduce warped rotors. My recommendation is to get them slotted, not cross drilled. Cross drilled may look cool, but they are more susceptible to cracking under heavy use. My friend uses them on his Porsche, which he races on the weekends and he does not have any brake problems. Increased pad life is also a benefit.
Take a look at NASCAR brakes. They are slotted, not cross drilled.
01-24-2005 | 11:10 PM
#10
Originally Posted by fast-tl
OMG! Please describe your style of driving and if other components have been equally stressed. I can't imagine that amount of wear could be normal in 21K miles unless you're autocrossing.
For the record, my previous car (2002 TL-S) had to have the rotors turned three times, then they were replaced (along w/ all four pads) all under warranty (up to 30-40,000 miles when I got rid of the thing).
01-24-2005 | 11:12 PM
#11
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
PeterUbers,
I haven't really been searching for aftermarket TL stuff as of yet but during your quest for rotors, be sure the rotors are manufacturered by someone other than Acura/Honda.... This sounds like an obvious comment but the reason is I ran into an issue with "aftermarket" rotors for a previous Maxima of mine. I questioned the seller heavily (Stillen.com) to ensure they were premium quality crossdrilled etc.. What I ended up with was a pair of genuine OEM Nissan rotors that were just cross drilled and dipped in anti-corrosion "stuff". Now, if all I was looking for was better cooling that might have been fine. But in that as well as the TL's issue, I wanted a premium rotor manufactured out of hopefully better steel/specifications etc.. I returned the rotors due to the $300+ pricetag and not wanting to take the chance with another Nissan rotor whether crossdrilled or not...
Just my 2c's
Keep us posted...
I haven't really been searching for aftermarket TL stuff as of yet but during your quest for rotors, be sure the rotors are manufacturered by someone other than Acura/Honda.... This sounds like an obvious comment but the reason is I ran into an issue with "aftermarket" rotors for a previous Maxima of mine. I questioned the seller heavily (Stillen.com) to ensure they were premium quality crossdrilled etc.. What I ended up with was a pair of genuine OEM Nissan rotors that were just cross drilled and dipped in anti-corrosion "stuff". Now, if all I was looking for was better cooling that might have been fine. But in that as well as the TL's issue, I wanted a premium rotor manufactured out of hopefully better steel/specifications etc.. I returned the rotors due to the $300+ pricetag and not wanting to take the chance with another Nissan rotor whether crossdrilled or not...
Just my 2c's
Keep us posted...
My Maxima and our E320 hasn't had any issues w/ brake warpage (both have more mileage) and they're on their OEM, original rotors and pads.
They also see the same type of driving style.
01-25-2005 | 12:27 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 882
Likes: 1
From: UBIQUITOUS
just to quote another member's (dcarlinf1) comments:
Separating fact from fiction
I and many of my autocrossing and road racing friends have been trying to separate the marketing hype from the product and explain the existence of Eradispeeds or any cross drilled and/or slotted brake rotors. Mostly, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the reasons for drilling holes in a perfectly good rotor. Cross drilled rotors have somehow become the "magical cure" for your brakes. Many would like you to believe that they will help you stop faster, they will wear better, stay cooler, and they can magically avoid warping. Unfortunately all of these things are false. But, since the guys who make these products spend more on advertising than I do (ok, I don't), it is easy to fall into that trap.
Broken down to the most basic physics (don't worry, no serious math involved here). You will begin to see the reasons they can't do the things they are touted to do.
The "basic" lesson:
Ok. If I am trying to boil a pot of water with 2 gallons of water in it. It will take a lot of heat to get all of that water up to boiling temperature. Right? Now, if I remove 1/2 the water and with it, 1/2 the mass used to absorb heat, it will now be easier to get that water to boil since there is less mass to absorb heat. Make sense?
Ok, If I take a 3 lb chunk of metal and a 6 lb chunk of metal and set them both over a small torch, which one do you think will heat up first? The lighter mass will see a more rapid temperature rise (it will get hotter, quicker). Correct?
Now, if I take a brake rotor that weighs 20 lbs and begin making "panic stops" with it, it's temperature will increase. Easy enough.
If I now take the same rotor, drill holes in it reducing its weight to 17 lbs and make the same "panic stops", would it not make sense (from the above examples) that the lighter rotor will end that stop with a higher temperature? Less mass to absorb heat will cause a more rapid temperature rise.
Many will say "cross drilled rotors cool better". Hmmm. If you really look at it, how much air do you think can blow through those little holes? Add the fact that they are spinning at a reasonably high speed and the cooling argument becomes even less believable. In fact, the holes could, in theory, disrupt the natural draw of air from the center of the rotor to the outside edge. That is the flow that actually cools the rotors.
The reason:
Rotors were originally drilled to eliminate something known as "green fade". The best way to explain "Green fade" is to relate it to an air hockey table. The puck is suspended on a cushion of air that prevents it from touching the table, this reduces the friction between the puck and the table.
A long time ago, pads were made with the best resins we had available. Many of those resins would produce gas as they cured. When a pad was used the first few times, the heat would "cure" the resin which would cause it to produce vapors. This was known as "out gassing". The vapors would build up between the pad and the rotor and lift or "force" the pad away from the rotor (like the puck in air hockey). This caused the brakes to be very ineffective, even though they were not yet at the maximum rated operating temperature. The holes were drilled to allow that gas a place to escape. So, it is correct to say that rotors were cross drilled to eliminate fade, but not for the reasons you would think. The good news is that today's resins no longer suffer from these problem and the modern race pads are so good that this is really no longer an issue. So, by cross drilling rotors, you will only manage to shorten the lifespan of that rotor (it now has less surface area to wear against the brake pad and will wear more quickly as well as a reduction in weight that will cause the brakes to operate at a higher temperature).
Another problem with cross drilled rotors is the potential for cracking around the holes. The holes become a stress point in the cast iron that can more readily allow cracks to form in the rotor surface. This requires that you pay close attention to the rotor surface for signs of cracking. Some small cracks, known as "surface checking" are acceptable, but anything that resembles a crack would be a reason to replace that rotor. When looking at slotted rotors keep in mind that the slots should not be milled off of the edge of the rotor. This is a great place for cracks to form, and they will. The slot should be ball milled in the rotor face and originate and terminate on the surface of the rotor without exiting the rotors edge. The goal is to eliminate sharp edges that cause stress risers on the rotor surface. This will reduce the possibility of cracking. If you see slotted rotors with slots that are milled off the edge of the rotor, shop for another brand. Slots that are not cut through the edge of the rotor are a good sign that the manufacturer of that rotor knows what they are doing. This is a good indicator of parts made by a brake company and not a machine shop that happens to drill and slot rotors.
Many years ago, when I ordered my first brake kit from Baer Racing, they told me that drilled rotors would typically last 20% less than an equivalent solid rotor. This was why they always recommended solid rotors for extreme use. Baer has changed their stance on this since discovering there was a large amount of money to be made selling "Eradispeeds" (they are very pretty brake rotors). This change in their marketing strategy has caused me to feel that they have gone from "supporting the racing community" to "making maximum money". And, I guess I can't blame them.....
If you are truly looking for upgraded braking performance for your car. I suggest, as a first upgrade, that you leave the stock size rotors and upgrade the pads. Try a set of Hawk HPS pads or something from Larry at Carbotech Engineering (www.carbotecheng.com). You'll think you put "big brakes" on all 4 corners (compared to stock).
If you must go bigger, look at the G-stop kit from LG Motorsports. It will let you use a C5 Corvette rotor. Bang for the buck, the LG kit is an excellent choice. There are larger kits and they increase in both cost and braking ability. Only your needs and your budget are the limit.
Tires:
I'd also like to take a moment to address the impact that tires have on braking performance.
While it is true that the tires have the "last word" with the pavement when it comes to how the car accelerates, turns, and brakes. There are a few things that tires can and can't do. While it is true that a car on wide, sticky tires should and will out brake the same car on thin, non-grippy tires (all other things being equal). And, while tires are extremely important. They become less important on the 5th or 8th stop or the 3rd lap of a road course. By then the brakes (depending on rotor size, cooling, pads, etc) may be so hot that they can't lock up the skinny little tires, much less the wide, grippy ones. This is where upgrading the brakes pays dividends. This is not meant to minimize the tires role in braking performance. Simply, you must remember to weigh the tires limits against the brake systems limits. You are working with a "package" and changes in one can impact the other. So, while tires will be the limit on the first few stops, they will play a less important role as the brake system temperatures increase. Remember, just because you can lock up the tires on the first stop does not mean that you can't benefit from brake system upgrades.
Separating fact from fiction
I and many of my autocrossing and road racing friends have been trying to separate the marketing hype from the product and explain the existence of Eradispeeds or any cross drilled and/or slotted brake rotors. Mostly, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the reasons for drilling holes in a perfectly good rotor. Cross drilled rotors have somehow become the "magical cure" for your brakes. Many would like you to believe that they will help you stop faster, they will wear better, stay cooler, and they can magically avoid warping. Unfortunately all of these things are false. But, since the guys who make these products spend more on advertising than I do (ok, I don't), it is easy to fall into that trap.
Broken down to the most basic physics (don't worry, no serious math involved here). You will begin to see the reasons they can't do the things they are touted to do.
The "basic" lesson:
Ok. If I am trying to boil a pot of water with 2 gallons of water in it. It will take a lot of heat to get all of that water up to boiling temperature. Right? Now, if I remove 1/2 the water and with it, 1/2 the mass used to absorb heat, it will now be easier to get that water to boil since there is less mass to absorb heat. Make sense?
Ok, If I take a 3 lb chunk of metal and a 6 lb chunk of metal and set them both over a small torch, which one do you think will heat up first? The lighter mass will see a more rapid temperature rise (it will get hotter, quicker). Correct?
Now, if I take a brake rotor that weighs 20 lbs and begin making "panic stops" with it, it's temperature will increase. Easy enough.
If I now take the same rotor, drill holes in it reducing its weight to 17 lbs and make the same "panic stops", would it not make sense (from the above examples) that the lighter rotor will end that stop with a higher temperature? Less mass to absorb heat will cause a more rapid temperature rise.
Many will say "cross drilled rotors cool better". Hmmm. If you really look at it, how much air do you think can blow through those little holes? Add the fact that they are spinning at a reasonably high speed and the cooling argument becomes even less believable. In fact, the holes could, in theory, disrupt the natural draw of air from the center of the rotor to the outside edge. That is the flow that actually cools the rotors.
The reason:
Rotors were originally drilled to eliminate something known as "green fade". The best way to explain "Green fade" is to relate it to an air hockey table. The puck is suspended on a cushion of air that prevents it from touching the table, this reduces the friction between the puck and the table.
A long time ago, pads were made with the best resins we had available. Many of those resins would produce gas as they cured. When a pad was used the first few times, the heat would "cure" the resin which would cause it to produce vapors. This was known as "out gassing". The vapors would build up between the pad and the rotor and lift or "force" the pad away from the rotor (like the puck in air hockey). This caused the brakes to be very ineffective, even though they were not yet at the maximum rated operating temperature. The holes were drilled to allow that gas a place to escape. So, it is correct to say that rotors were cross drilled to eliminate fade, but not for the reasons you would think. The good news is that today's resins no longer suffer from these problem and the modern race pads are so good that this is really no longer an issue. So, by cross drilling rotors, you will only manage to shorten the lifespan of that rotor (it now has less surface area to wear against the brake pad and will wear more quickly as well as a reduction in weight that will cause the brakes to operate at a higher temperature).
Another problem with cross drilled rotors is the potential for cracking around the holes. The holes become a stress point in the cast iron that can more readily allow cracks to form in the rotor surface. This requires that you pay close attention to the rotor surface for signs of cracking. Some small cracks, known as "surface checking" are acceptable, but anything that resembles a crack would be a reason to replace that rotor. When looking at slotted rotors keep in mind that the slots should not be milled off of the edge of the rotor. This is a great place for cracks to form, and they will. The slot should be ball milled in the rotor face and originate and terminate on the surface of the rotor without exiting the rotors edge. The goal is to eliminate sharp edges that cause stress risers on the rotor surface. This will reduce the possibility of cracking. If you see slotted rotors with slots that are milled off the edge of the rotor, shop for another brand. Slots that are not cut through the edge of the rotor are a good sign that the manufacturer of that rotor knows what they are doing. This is a good indicator of parts made by a brake company and not a machine shop that happens to drill and slot rotors.
Many years ago, when I ordered my first brake kit from Baer Racing, they told me that drilled rotors would typically last 20% less than an equivalent solid rotor. This was why they always recommended solid rotors for extreme use. Baer has changed their stance on this since discovering there was a large amount of money to be made selling "Eradispeeds" (they are very pretty brake rotors). This change in their marketing strategy has caused me to feel that they have gone from "supporting the racing community" to "making maximum money". And, I guess I can't blame them.....
If you are truly looking for upgraded braking performance for your car. I suggest, as a first upgrade, that you leave the stock size rotors and upgrade the pads. Try a set of Hawk HPS pads or something from Larry at Carbotech Engineering (www.carbotecheng.com). You'll think you put "big brakes" on all 4 corners (compared to stock).
If you must go bigger, look at the G-stop kit from LG Motorsports. It will let you use a C5 Corvette rotor. Bang for the buck, the LG kit is an excellent choice. There are larger kits and they increase in both cost and braking ability. Only your needs and your budget are the limit.
Tires:
I'd also like to take a moment to address the impact that tires have on braking performance.
While it is true that the tires have the "last word" with the pavement when it comes to how the car accelerates, turns, and brakes. There are a few things that tires can and can't do. While it is true that a car on wide, sticky tires should and will out brake the same car on thin, non-grippy tires (all other things being equal). And, while tires are extremely important. They become less important on the 5th or 8th stop or the 3rd lap of a road course. By then the brakes (depending on rotor size, cooling, pads, etc) may be so hot that they can't lock up the skinny little tires, much less the wide, grippy ones. This is where upgrading the brakes pays dividends. This is not meant to minimize the tires role in braking performance. Simply, you must remember to weigh the tires limits against the brake systems limits. You are working with a "package" and changes in one can impact the other. So, while tires will be the limit on the first few stops, they will play a less important role as the brake system temperatures increase. Remember, just because you can lock up the tires on the first stop does not mean that you can't benefit from brake system upgrades.
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IIDXholic (08-28-2012)
01-25-2005 | 12:49 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted by 3PUTT
just to quote another member's (dcarlinf1) comments:
Separating fact from fiction
I and many of my autocrossing and road racing friends have been trying to separate the marketing hype from the product and explain the existence of Eradispeeds or any cross drilled and/or slotted brake rotors. Mostly, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the reasons for drilling holes in a perfectly good rotor. Cross drilled rotors have somehow become the "magical cure" for your brakes. Many would like you to believe that they will help you stop faster, they will wear better, stay cooler, and they can magically avoid warping. Unfortunately all of these things are false. But, since the guys who make these products spend more on advertising than I do (ok, I don't), it is easy to fall into that trap.
Broken down to the most basic physics (don't worry, no serious math involved here). You will begin to see the reasons they can't do the things they are touted to do.
The "basic" lesson:
Ok. If I am trying to boil a pot of water with 2 gallons of water in it. It will take a lot of heat to get all of that water up to boiling temperature. Right? Now, if I remove 1/2 the water and with it, 1/2 the mass used to absorb heat, it will now be easier to get that water to boil since there is less mass to absorb heat. Make sense?
Ok, If I take a 3 lb chunk of metal and a 6 lb chunk of metal and set them both over a small torch, which one do you think will heat up first? The lighter mass will see a more rapid temperature rise (it will get hotter, quicker). Correct?
Now, if I take a brake rotor that weighs 20 lbs and begin making "panic stops" with it, it's temperature will increase. Easy enough.
If I now take the same rotor, drill holes in it reducing its weight to 17 lbs and make the same "panic stops", would it not make sense (from the above examples) that the lighter rotor will end that stop with a higher temperature? Less mass to absorb heat will cause a more rapid temperature rise.
Many will say "cross drilled rotors cool better". Hmmm. If you really look at it, how much air do you think can blow through those little holes? Add the fact that they are spinning at a reasonably high speed and the cooling argument becomes even less believable. In fact, the holes could, in theory, disrupt the natural draw of air from the center of the rotor to the outside edge. That is the flow that actually cools the rotors.
The reason:
Rotors were originally drilled to eliminate something known as "green fade". The best way to explain "Green fade" is to relate it to an air hockey table. The puck is suspended on a cushion of air that prevents it from touching the table, this reduces the friction between the puck and the table.
A long time ago, pads were made with the best resins we had available. Many of those resins would produce gas as they cured. When a pad was used the first few times, the heat would "cure" the resin which would cause it to produce vapors. This was known as "out gassing". The vapors would build up between the pad and the rotor and lift or "force" the pad away from the rotor (like the puck in air hockey). This caused the brakes to be very ineffective, even though they were not yet at the maximum rated operating temperature. The holes were drilled to allow that gas a place to escape. So, it is correct to say that rotors were cross drilled to eliminate fade, but not for the reasons you would think. The good news is that today's resins no longer suffer from these problem and the modern race pads are so good that this is really no longer an issue. So, by cross drilling rotors, you will only manage to shorten the lifespan of that rotor (it now has less surface area to wear against the brake pad and will wear more quickly as well as a reduction in weight that will cause the brakes to operate at a higher temperature).
Another problem with cross drilled rotors is the potential for cracking around the holes. The holes become a stress point in the cast iron that can more readily allow cracks to form in the rotor surface. This requires that you pay close attention to the rotor surface for signs of cracking. Some small cracks, known as "surface checking" are acceptable, but anything that resembles a crack would be a reason to replace that rotor. When looking at slotted rotors keep in mind that the slots should not be milled off of the edge of the rotor. This is a great place for cracks to form, and they will. The slot should be ball milled in the rotor face and originate and terminate on the surface of the rotor without exiting the rotors edge. The goal is to eliminate sharp edges that cause stress risers on the rotor surface. This will reduce the possibility of cracking. If you see slotted rotors with slots that are milled off the edge of the rotor, shop for another brand. Slots that are not cut through the edge of the rotor are a good sign that the manufacturer of that rotor knows what they are doing. This is a good indicator of parts made by a brake company and not a machine shop that happens to drill and slot rotors.
Many years ago, when I ordered my first brake kit from Baer Racing, they told me that drilled rotors would typically last 20% less than an equivalent solid rotor. This was why they always recommended solid rotors for extreme use. Baer has changed their stance on this since discovering there was a large amount of money to be made selling "Eradispeeds" (they are very pretty brake rotors). This change in their marketing strategy has caused me to feel that they have gone from "supporting the racing community" to "making maximum money". And, I guess I can't blame them.....
If you are truly looking for upgraded braking performance for your car. I suggest, as a first upgrade, that you leave the stock size rotors and upgrade the pads. Try a set of Hawk HPS pads or something from Larry at Carbotech Engineering (www.carbotecheng.com). You'll think you put "big brakes" on all 4 corners (compared to stock).
If you must go bigger, look at the G-stop kit from LG Motorsports. It will let you use a C5 Corvette rotor. Bang for the buck, the LG kit is an excellent choice. There are larger kits and they increase in both cost and braking ability. Only your needs and your budget are the limit.
Tires:
I'd also like to take a moment to address the impact that tires have on braking performance.
While it is true that the tires have the "last word" with the pavement when it comes to how the car accelerates, turns, and brakes. There are a few things that tires can and can't do. While it is true that a car on wide, sticky tires should and will out brake the same car on thin, non-grippy tires (all other things being equal). And, while tires are extremely important. They become less important on the 5th or 8th stop or the 3rd lap of a road course. By then the brakes (depending on rotor size, cooling, pads, etc) may be so hot that they can't lock up the skinny little tires, much less the wide, grippy ones. This is where upgrading the brakes pays dividends. This is not meant to minimize the tires role in braking performance. Simply, you must remember to weigh the tires limits against the brake systems limits. You are working with a "package" and changes in one can impact the other. So, while tires will be the limit on the first few stops, they will play a less important role as the brake system temperatures increase. Remember, just because you can lock up the tires on the first stop does not mean that you can't benefit from brake system upgrades.
Separating fact from fiction
I and many of my autocrossing and road racing friends have been trying to separate the marketing hype from the product and explain the existence of Eradispeeds or any cross drilled and/or slotted brake rotors. Mostly, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the reasons for drilling holes in a perfectly good rotor. Cross drilled rotors have somehow become the "magical cure" for your brakes. Many would like you to believe that they will help you stop faster, they will wear better, stay cooler, and they can magically avoid warping. Unfortunately all of these things are false. But, since the guys who make these products spend more on advertising than I do (ok, I don't), it is easy to fall into that trap.
Broken down to the most basic physics (don't worry, no serious math involved here). You will begin to see the reasons they can't do the things they are touted to do.
The "basic" lesson:
Ok. If I am trying to boil a pot of water with 2 gallons of water in it. It will take a lot of heat to get all of that water up to boiling temperature. Right? Now, if I remove 1/2 the water and with it, 1/2 the mass used to absorb heat, it will now be easier to get that water to boil since there is less mass to absorb heat. Make sense?
Ok, If I take a 3 lb chunk of metal and a 6 lb chunk of metal and set them both over a small torch, which one do you think will heat up first? The lighter mass will see a more rapid temperature rise (it will get hotter, quicker). Correct?
Now, if I take a brake rotor that weighs 20 lbs and begin making "panic stops" with it, it's temperature will increase. Easy enough.
If I now take the same rotor, drill holes in it reducing its weight to 17 lbs and make the same "panic stops", would it not make sense (from the above examples) that the lighter rotor will end that stop with a higher temperature? Less mass to absorb heat will cause a more rapid temperature rise.
Many will say "cross drilled rotors cool better". Hmmm. If you really look at it, how much air do you think can blow through those little holes? Add the fact that they are spinning at a reasonably high speed and the cooling argument becomes even less believable. In fact, the holes could, in theory, disrupt the natural draw of air from the center of the rotor to the outside edge. That is the flow that actually cools the rotors.
The reason:
Rotors were originally drilled to eliminate something known as "green fade". The best way to explain "Green fade" is to relate it to an air hockey table. The puck is suspended on a cushion of air that prevents it from touching the table, this reduces the friction between the puck and the table.
A long time ago, pads were made with the best resins we had available. Many of those resins would produce gas as they cured. When a pad was used the first few times, the heat would "cure" the resin which would cause it to produce vapors. This was known as "out gassing". The vapors would build up between the pad and the rotor and lift or "force" the pad away from the rotor (like the puck in air hockey). This caused the brakes to be very ineffective, even though they were not yet at the maximum rated operating temperature. The holes were drilled to allow that gas a place to escape. So, it is correct to say that rotors were cross drilled to eliminate fade, but not for the reasons you would think. The good news is that today's resins no longer suffer from these problem and the modern race pads are so good that this is really no longer an issue. So, by cross drilling rotors, you will only manage to shorten the lifespan of that rotor (it now has less surface area to wear against the brake pad and will wear more quickly as well as a reduction in weight that will cause the brakes to operate at a higher temperature).
Another problem with cross drilled rotors is the potential for cracking around the holes. The holes become a stress point in the cast iron that can more readily allow cracks to form in the rotor surface. This requires that you pay close attention to the rotor surface for signs of cracking. Some small cracks, known as "surface checking" are acceptable, but anything that resembles a crack would be a reason to replace that rotor. When looking at slotted rotors keep in mind that the slots should not be milled off of the edge of the rotor. This is a great place for cracks to form, and they will. The slot should be ball milled in the rotor face and originate and terminate on the surface of the rotor without exiting the rotors edge. The goal is to eliminate sharp edges that cause stress risers on the rotor surface. This will reduce the possibility of cracking. If you see slotted rotors with slots that are milled off the edge of the rotor, shop for another brand. Slots that are not cut through the edge of the rotor are a good sign that the manufacturer of that rotor knows what they are doing. This is a good indicator of parts made by a brake company and not a machine shop that happens to drill and slot rotors.
Many years ago, when I ordered my first brake kit from Baer Racing, they told me that drilled rotors would typically last 20% less than an equivalent solid rotor. This was why they always recommended solid rotors for extreme use. Baer has changed their stance on this since discovering there was a large amount of money to be made selling "Eradispeeds" (they are very pretty brake rotors). This change in their marketing strategy has caused me to feel that they have gone from "supporting the racing community" to "making maximum money". And, I guess I can't blame them.....
If you are truly looking for upgraded braking performance for your car. I suggest, as a first upgrade, that you leave the stock size rotors and upgrade the pads. Try a set of Hawk HPS pads or something from Larry at Carbotech Engineering (www.carbotecheng.com). You'll think you put "big brakes" on all 4 corners (compared to stock).
If you must go bigger, look at the G-stop kit from LG Motorsports. It will let you use a C5 Corvette rotor. Bang for the buck, the LG kit is an excellent choice. There are larger kits and they increase in both cost and braking ability. Only your needs and your budget are the limit.
Tires:
I'd also like to take a moment to address the impact that tires have on braking performance.
While it is true that the tires have the "last word" with the pavement when it comes to how the car accelerates, turns, and brakes. There are a few things that tires can and can't do. While it is true that a car on wide, sticky tires should and will out brake the same car on thin, non-grippy tires (all other things being equal). And, while tires are extremely important. They become less important on the 5th or 8th stop or the 3rd lap of a road course. By then the brakes (depending on rotor size, cooling, pads, etc) may be so hot that they can't lock up the skinny little tires, much less the wide, grippy ones. This is where upgrading the brakes pays dividends. This is not meant to minimize the tires role in braking performance. Simply, you must remember to weigh the tires limits against the brake systems limits. You are working with a "package" and changes in one can impact the other. So, while tires will be the limit on the first few stops, they will play a less important role as the brake system temperatures increase. Remember, just because you can lock up the tires on the first stop does not mean that you can't benefit from brake system upgrades.
01-25-2005 | 07:50 AM
#19
Team Nighthawk MechE
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 715
Likes: 1
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by mickey3c
I am a bit surprised... The only time I ever got warp rotors were after they were turned... When they are warped are the dealers replacing them or trying to turn them?
01-25-2005 | 08:35 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 3
Doesn't it suck to say well the OEM tires (which is not that bad of a problem) have to be replaced, but when the rotors have to be as well... I live on the highway and know that from time to time you have to really get on the brakes. Has nothing to do with driving style as it does with driving environment.
I would not want to have to get a brake upgrade. If the manufacturer makes a car that can perform a certain way, the car and parts have to be able to take it...
I would not want to have to get a brake upgrade. If the manufacturer makes a car that can perform a certain way, the car and parts have to be able to take it...
01-25-2005 | 09:12 AM
#21
Ex-Acura Service Manager
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 333
Likes: 1
From: Laurel, MD
Mickey-
All manufacturers make a product they think will stand up to the job at hand, but what really determines wether or not a brake rotor will warp is driving habits & driving conditions. Some drivers are harder on their brakes than others, and exceed the capabilities of the rotors.
All manufacturers make a product they think will stand up to the job at hand, but what really determines wether or not a brake rotor will warp is driving habits & driving conditions. Some drivers are harder on their brakes than others, and exceed the capabilities of the rotors.
01-25-2005 | 09:42 AM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 3
do not think!
Well that is the problem... they think!!! They need to know...
If I need to buy rotors on an annual basis (I drive 18K a year) then I would not be too happy. And this car is not any different from others... It is like the battery issue... I know it is difficult to keep track of all the components that go into a complex piece of machinery, but it has to be done.
If acura replaces them at not cost to you, fine... But, I would hate to have that kind of relationship with a dealer, where they say good day sir, must be time for your annual rotors...
So when you drive you know a weak point of the car are the rotors.... inspiring confidence and a weariness that you need to be careful...
I can see why people are upgrading.
If I need to buy rotors on an annual basis (I drive 18K a year) then I would not be too happy. And this car is not any different from others... It is like the battery issue... I know it is difficult to keep track of all the components that go into a complex piece of machinery, but it has to be done.
If acura replaces them at not cost to you, fine... But, I would hate to have that kind of relationship with a dealer, where they say good day sir, must be time for your annual rotors...
So when you drive you know a weak point of the car are the rotors.... inspiring confidence and a weariness that you need to be careful...
I can see why people are upgrading.
01-25-2005 | 10:50 AM
#23
Systems Overlord
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 458
Likes: 1
From: Long Island, NY
Warped rotors can also be caused by over torqueing the lugnuts when your tires are rotated. Make sure that the lug nuts are torqued to spec. This was a very common problem on Nissan Maximas.
01-25-2005 | 11:16 AM
#24
Ex-Acura Service Manager
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 333
Likes: 1
From: Laurel, MD
Prolanman makes a good point. Rotors can indeed distort when a wheel is overtorqued or unevenly torqued.
Mickey, I understand what you're saying, but all car designs are compromises. Acura takes all driving styles into account, but there's always going to be drivers out there that exceed the limits of the design.
This is coming from someone who has warped every set of rotors on his daily driver since he got his license 20 years ago, with all the stop & go driving in the DC area.
Mickey, I understand what you're saying, but all car designs are compromises. Acura takes all driving styles into account, but there's always going to be drivers out there that exceed the limits of the design.
This is coming from someone who has warped every set of rotors on his daily driver since he got his license 20 years ago, with all the stop & go driving in the DC area.
01-25-2005 | 11:33 AM
#25
Senior Moderator
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,295
Likes: 131
From: IL
01-25-2005 | 11:42 AM
#27
I do my own work.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 0
From: ATL
Originally Posted by mickey3c
...I live on the highway and know that from time to time you have to really get on the brakes. Has nothing to do with driving style as it does with driving environment.
Now, if you live on a mountain or autocrossed on the weekends, then this might be in your best interest.
01-25-2005 | 11:46 AM
#28
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Ellicott City, MD
That is why I bought the 6-speed, mostly for the upgraded brakes. I don't think you will find too many people with 6-speed having this issue.
You do not have to get Frozen Rotors slotted. It is a service that they offer. They typically sell rotors manufactured by Brembo. I would be suprised that they cannot get rotors for the TL.
Frozen Rotors does sell rotors as well as offers the Cryo cooling service for anyone that wants to send product that they purchased from somewhere else.
With that said, Stoptech has great products as well. But, Cryocooling does have performance benefits.
You do not have to get Frozen Rotors slotted. It is a service that they offer. They typically sell rotors manufactured by Brembo. I would be suprised that they cannot get rotors for the TL.
Frozen Rotors does sell rotors as well as offers the Cryo cooling service for anyone that wants to send product that they purchased from somewhere else.
With that said, Stoptech has great products as well. But, Cryocooling does have performance benefits.
01-25-2005 | 12:25 PM
#29
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
3putt I agree with your assesment to a point, cross drilled rotors suffer from all the ills you pointed out, but the point of creating additional ventilation on the rotor is not to increase braking power but rather to lower fade. This is especially critical as the surface area of the rotor increases and therefore there is greater mass, all the drilling and slotting is meant to increase the dissipation of heat. As you pointed out "ventilated" rotors actually have a shorter lifespan than normal rotors for all the reasons you so well pointed out. Rotor warping in normal conditions has more to do with the rotor alloy, different steel grades have better resistance to warping than others. Most car rotors come with a very high carbon content steel (thats why they rust) but it also makes them very hard and brittle. Playing with the alloy can reduce warping but of course it will also cost more. Brembo rotors with different alloys which are more resistant to warping are available ($$$), you can buy them drilled or not.
01-25-2005 | 12:49 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 3
hmm well
So when you buy a car you instantly think ok.. tires are crap and all which can be on any car and then decide (and I know some folks who do a lot of stop and go and wear out pads not warping rotors) that I need to do some upgrades to the car to make it perform the way I want/need...
Maybe I am being overly critical.. but just makes me wonder since I have heard of people having to replace brakes and rotors at 35,000 miles.. But not in 12000..
Are they running the car at a track. And if so, they need something other than OEM brakes.
Maybe I am being overly critical.. but just makes me wonder since I have heard of people having to replace brakes and rotors at 35,000 miles.. But not in 12000..
Are they running the car at a track. And if so, they need something other than OEM brakes.
01-25-2005 | 01:19 PM
#31
Head a da Family
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 563
From: New Friggin Jerzy
Originally Posted by Prolanman
Warped rotors can also be caused by over torqueing the lugnuts when your tires are rotated. Make sure that the lug nuts are torqued to spec. This was a very common problem on Nissan Maximas.
When I have a tire removed in the shop for whatever reason, I make sure they use a device called a torque stop. It looks like one arm of a tire lug wrench with an integrated socket on one end and a ½" square rachet/air gun hole on the other. This device stops the air gun when the tightness reaches 80 ft-lbs, the recommended torque for Acura and Honda. Ever since I started using this procedure 7 years ago, PRESTO!! No more warped rotors.
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01-25-2005 | 04:13 PM
#32
The only people that take more tires on or off is the Acura dealership when they rotate them at regular service visits. I would hope that they use a torque stop wrench ...
01-25-2005 | 04:34 PM
#33
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by PeterUbers
The only people that take more tires on or off is the Acura dealership when they rotate them at regular service visits. I would hope that they use a torque stop wrench ...
01-25-2005 | 06:19 PM
#34
Head a da Family
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 563
From: New Friggin Jerzy
Originally Posted by PeterUbers
The only people that take more tires on or off is the Acura dealership when they rotate them at regular service visits. I would hope that they use a torque stop wrench ...
01-25-2005 | 07:54 PM
#35
Originally Posted by DMZ
You hope .................
In fact, i'm damn sure they know what they're doing.
01-25-2005 | 10:23 PM
#36
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Cleveland, Ohio
I have a semi-fix.
While at stop lights waiting for it to turn. You should put your car in neutral (N) and take your foot OFF the brake.
REASON: Once you stop and continue to HOLD THE BRAKE, your pad is super hot. By taking your foot off the brake you allow much needed air flow in to cool the pads and rotors. If you keep the brakes ON, that part of the rotor does NOT cool as fast as the rest of the rotor. Therefore uneven distribution of heat.
When I was doing SCCA racing and driving schools, my instructors told me as soon as I pulled in to the paddocks, "Shut your car off immediately, put in 1st and let off the brakes." I never had warped rotors even under racing/track days with OEM rotors (GS-R)
I hope this helps.
miiipilot
While at stop lights waiting for it to turn. You should put your car in neutral (N) and take your foot OFF the brake.
REASON: Once you stop and continue to HOLD THE BRAKE, your pad is super hot. By taking your foot off the brake you allow much needed air flow in to cool the pads and rotors. If you keep the brakes ON, that part of the rotor does NOT cool as fast as the rest of the rotor. Therefore uneven distribution of heat.
When I was doing SCCA racing and driving schools, my instructors told me as soon as I pulled in to the paddocks, "Shut your car off immediately, put in 1st and let off the brakes." I never had warped rotors even under racing/track days with OEM rotors (GS-R)
I hope this helps.
miiipilot
01-25-2005 | 10:31 PM
#37
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Ohhh forgot to mention,
I wouldn't recommend Cross-Drilled rotors, ONLY slotted. Get Cross-Drilled for racing applications ONLY IMO, because this is the only time you are gonna build up enough gas pressure that require the ventilation of cross-drilling. While preventing warping, Cross-drilled rotors will crack more around the holes. These are not a reliable/durable.
miiipilot
I'm not sure if they have applications for the TL, but I have seen slotted rotors that are DIMPLED. Giving the appearance of cross-drilled. I think I may have seen them in a Stillen catelog for my G35 cpe. or www.stillen.com
I wouldn't recommend Cross-Drilled rotors, ONLY slotted. Get Cross-Drilled for racing applications ONLY IMO, because this is the only time you are gonna build up enough gas pressure that require the ventilation of cross-drilling. While preventing warping, Cross-drilled rotors will crack more around the holes. These are not a reliable/durable.
miiipilot
I'm not sure if they have applications for the TL, but I have seen slotted rotors that are DIMPLED. Giving the appearance of cross-drilled. I think I may have seen them in a Stillen catelog for my G35 cpe. or www.stillen.com
01-25-2005 | 10:51 PM
#38
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 53
From: Central CA
Originally Posted by PeterUbers
I'll definitely keep the board posted .. will shoot pics of the rotors I end up going with as well -- I can't stand it when I just wanna enjoy cruising in my TL and I get the damn shimmy in the steering wheel. It "cheapens" the ride quality for me.
My Maxima and our E320 hasn't had any issues w/ brake warpage (both have more mileage) and they're on their OEM, original rotors and pads.
They also see the same type of driving style.
My Maxima and our E320 hasn't had any issues w/ brake warpage (both have more mileage) and they're on their OEM, original rotors and pads.
They also see the same type of driving style.
01-25-2005 | 11:12 PM
#39
Pro
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, NY
Edit: (Didn't realize that you were quoting dcarlin1, sorry)
3Putt: All that boiling water and heated metal is true, but isn't the heat generated by the brakes caused by friction? And by reducing the surface area on which heat will be generated by friction would allow the rotors to remain cooler longer. Being that the drilled rotors have less volume, they would heat up quicker than solid ones, but we would have to do some real math to find out whether the reduced heat would cause the drilled rotors to reach a certain temp slower or faster that solid rotors.
I'm not suggesting that someone does the math, although I'm almost sure someone will anyway. I'm just saying that your comments seem over simplified and not are really addressing all the physics involved.
PeterUbers: You mentioned a shimmy in the wheel, I have something similar when I brake also. Can you explain more in detail exactly what I should look for. I've never had warped rotors before. I also sometimes get a feeling in the brake like the ABS feeling, when the ABS should really not be activated. (During braking at slow speeds during turns)
Thanks
3Putt: All that boiling water and heated metal is true, but isn't the heat generated by the brakes caused by friction? And by reducing the surface area on which heat will be generated by friction would allow the rotors to remain cooler longer. Being that the drilled rotors have less volume, they would heat up quicker than solid ones, but we would have to do some real math to find out whether the reduced heat would cause the drilled rotors to reach a certain temp slower or faster that solid rotors.
I'm not suggesting that someone does the math, although I'm almost sure someone will anyway. I'm just saying that your comments seem over simplified and not are really addressing all the physics involved.
PeterUbers: You mentioned a shimmy in the wheel, I have something similar when I brake also. Can you explain more in detail exactly what I should look for. I've never had warped rotors before. I also sometimes get a feeling in the brake like the ABS feeling, when the ABS should really not be activated. (During braking at slow speeds during turns)
Thanks
01-25-2005 | 11:47 PM
#40
WDP Director of R & D
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Likes: 4
From: Texas
Originally Posted by apwalsh
Edit: (Didn't realize that you were quoting dcarlin1, sorry)
3Putt: All that boiling water and heated metal is true, but isn't the heat generated by the brakes caused by friction? And by reducing the surface area on which heat will be generated by friction would allow the rotors to remain cooler longer. Being that the drilled rotors have less volume, they would heat up quicker than solid ones, but we would have to do some real math to find out whether the reduced heat would cause the drilled rotors to reach a certain temp slower or faster that solid rotors.
I'm not suggesting that someone does the math, although I'm almost sure someone will anyway. I'm just saying that your comments seem over simplified and not are really addressing all the physics involved.
PeterUbers: You mentioned a shimmy in the wheel, I have something similar when I brake also. Can you explain more in detail exactly what I should look for. I've never had warped rotors before. I also sometimes get a feeling in the brake like the ABS feeling, when the ABS should really not be activated. (During braking at slow speeds during turns)
Thanks
3Putt: All that boiling water and heated metal is true, but isn't the heat generated by the brakes caused by friction? And by reducing the surface area on which heat will be generated by friction would allow the rotors to remain cooler longer. Being that the drilled rotors have less volume, they would heat up quicker than solid ones, but we would have to do some real math to find out whether the reduced heat would cause the drilled rotors to reach a certain temp slower or faster that solid rotors.
I'm not suggesting that someone does the math, although I'm almost sure someone will anyway. I'm just saying that your comments seem over simplified and not are really addressing all the physics involved.
PeterUbers: You mentioned a shimmy in the wheel, I have something similar when I brake also. Can you explain more in detail exactly what I should look for. I've never had warped rotors before. I also sometimes get a feeling in the brake like the ABS feeling, when the ABS should really not be activated. (During braking at slow speeds during turns)
Thanks