jl_forum

Hi guys,
I'm not too sure about this but is there rolling code on the keyless entry system? If not, what aftermarket alarm/keyless/immobilzer system do you recommend? Thanks!
Sincerely,
JL

Contivity

I think i've read a post that there's no rolling code on ours.... and I'm not really that concerned about this issue...

rommey

Sorry you aren't concerned. I guess you will be concerned when you fall victim to an a-hole using a code grabbing device on your TL. "not going to happen to me" Yeah right! While your at it, why don't you disable the rolling code feature on your garage door opener. I don't think you should be concerned about someone getting into your garage which could lead someone into your house. Nah, I guess I should take a cue from you and not be concerned about a potential theft issue. While you're at it, unlock your windows and keep your front door open. You shouldn't be concerned. Thanks for the AWESOME advice.

rommey

Contact Acura and use the RL alarm system which has rolling codes. This is what I did. And yes it was a concern of mine as it should be for everyone who owns an Acura product. Maybe I shouldn't be concerned.

rommey

....and by the way if you haven't guessed it by now, I'm a cop and can't tell you how many of these code grabbing devices are showing up constantly on my beat. This is a serious problem that Acura needs to address immediately. BE CONCERNED!

crazymjb

Rolling code, can someone fill me in?

Ron A

I appreciate your concern, and I agree with you that we all should be concerned. But I feel the need to point out that Contivity was not offering advice, just giving his own personal opinion. Maybe it is based on where he lives or other factors, but it is still an opinion.

And I also appreciate the work you do, and the fact that you are trying to motivate people to be more aware of the fact that it is so easy for a thief to steal our cars.

Ron A

A rolling code means that the same code is not used twice in succession to open the door, so if a thief copies the code, the next time it is used it will not open the door. I read there are over a billion codes available, so the chance of anyone stumbling on the right one by trial and error is pretty remote.

It is the same concept used for garage door openers so someone can't park nearby, wait for you to come home and open your garage door, and capture the code by some electronic device, and then gain access to your house when you are away.

rommey

Your remote transmitter sends out a signal with a code. Rolling codes are simply that. Rolling. Meaning the codes changes everytime you use your remote to unlock your car. Without rolling codes, anyone can purchase a cheap code grabbing device and intercept the static code the TL puts out and presto, the thief can use his code grabbing device to now open your car with the code he's intercepted. Higher end cars like the RL have this feature. Your garage door remote has this feature. Unfortunately, you'll find some ignorant posters here who don't think it's a concern of their's.

crazymjb

O, thanks. I know MB has em. They would be a nice thing to see on the Acura.

Contivity

Thank you for your concern Rommey and thank you Ron A for understanding my point of view... I think that this need is different from one person to the other... I always park in my garage and I don't really go to unattended place (friend's house etc) and I feel safe enough... My old car does not even have an alarm, keyless entry and most of the time I forget to lock my door... Even at that stage, my car has never been broken into, that is why I'm not that concerned about not having rolling code...

I don't think that there's the need to get so flamed up...

rommey

Sorry, it's people that have your lax attitude that keeps Acura from putting a rolling code device on it's cars other than the RL. Mine and numerous other police departments are constantly petitioning Honda to put rolling code security systems on their TL and lower models. I need to keep people aware of the problem. If you post you're not concerned others may follow your path and have their car broken into. I'll do my best to make sure they are concerned and don't become lax. You have a high end car. Why not have a high end security system? It only makes sense. CODE GRABBING DEVICES ARE A BIG PROBLEM THAT HONDA NEEDS TO ADDRESS NOW!They're are found in EVERY US town including yours.

MR1

Officer, please take a breath. I understand your passion and in fact agree with you. I live in one of the highest auto theft cities in the country. A rolling code would be a big help for people in my situation and yours I guess. But, the car didn't come with one and it didn't keep either of us from buying one.

I hope that you continue your crusade toward Honda. It couldn't cost that much additional. Everybody doesn't need the protection or feel as strongly as you do. Even with a rolling code it's still easy to get into our cars so we shouldn't leave things of value in plain view. The immobilizer will at least help keep the car where you leave it.

How do you go about using the RL system?

jl_forum

Hi all, thanks for replying to my original post. I do find it to be a problem simply because if I have something I want to protect in my car, I believe that I should be able to without worrying. If someone can steal my code, what is the point of paying an extra "unseen premium" for having keyless entry. Rommey, how can you get the RL system on the TL? I thought they used two different systems. If that were the case, wouldn't it be cheaper to use an aftermarket system? Do you have any idea if the RL has an immobilizer with it as well?

For those of you who aren't worried about rolling code, that's fine, but please don't attack people and vice versa. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I am just looking for suggestions. I would highly recommend those who are against the rolling code to at least read some stories about it. I read about someone who once bought all his presents during the holiday season and someone was using a code stealing device. He came back to his car to find that everything had been cleanly stolen, leaving no traces of tampering, etc. You can choose to ignore such stories if you like, but I personally never would chance such a thing. Especially if I had been warned about it before.

Anyways, back to my original post. As the TL does not have a rolling code, can anyone recommend a good aftermarket alarm system w/immobilizer and rolling code? If I am going to purchase my TL fairly soon, I wouldn't mind investing some more into an alarm to keep a sound piece of mind. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, guys.

Sherlock

Ok.. the first two posts said "is there" and "I think I read a post that there isn't". Has anyone actually verified that there is or isn't ?? I would imagine it would be pretty darned stupid if Hondon't doesn't have this feature. But then again, with their levels of skimp in the last 6+ years, somehow it doesn't seem so unimaginable now.

Ron A

Did you read the posts in between the first and last post? The TL doesn't have rolling codes. Rommey wouldn't be fighting so hard to get them if they already have them.

crazymjb

And can the immobilizer be cracked. Even if you have a rolling code it wont make a difference if they decide to break a window.

jl_forum

Just curious but does ANYONE have an aftermarket system? I don't really see anyone with replies to my original question.... kinda makes me worry...

Yoda117

Rommey... you know, they could just use a flatbed and take the car regardless.

Additionally, what code grabbing device do you speak of? Unless they get into the system itself, there are few devices which could read the message sent between the car and the key which have a range greater than a few feet.

Oh yeah, they only JUST released a white paper indicating that it was possible to break the encryption algorithm currently used by modern automobile keys, and that it was somewhat time consuming (not including intelligent key systems, since the vehicles are usually promiscuious).

To answer the question... I wouldn't be too concerned with this issue as of yet. The "code" (actually it's an encryption) is not a rolling one. It is based off of your key code. In the future, PKI will most likely be used to create a rolling code, but it is only being used in select applications and the Web as of right now.

Personal opinion is that if you are concerned enough about it (and you should be), get yourself a good alarm system. Personally, I have really enjoyed using the crimestopper series of alarms for my family's vehicles. The signal is hard to intercept, making the job of an evesdropping neer-do-well a lot harder, the alarm is much better than the OEM, and some models include a remote starter (kills two birds with one stone).

Yoda117

Additionally, make the investment into a system such as LoJack... a determined thief will get your car no matter what, but recovering it quickly is the difference between minor damage (if any), and a total loss.

triggle

jl_forum
I've talked with an Acura dealer who thinks the system is a code roller using 6 million codes so it never uses the same one and changes each time you use the remote.

They explained to me that Honda (Accords included) changed to this system after 2001/02 when there was a rash of thefts based on code-grabbers. I am in Canada but I don't think they would use an inferior system on a US model.

I'm doing what I can to find out more about this. I would call the Acura rep in the US to get a difinitive answer and I will call our Canadian rep then we'll have more than one positive or negative. No offence to Rommey as he does seem to know his stuff but I also want to be certain because I am going to embark on a project using the keyfob myself.

Rommey is right a code-roller is essential in any city or a cracker with a code-grabber can sit in the parking lot of the movie theatre for instance, watch you enter and he knows he has a couple hours to get in and out without detection.

Yoda117

psst... we call that an encryption algorithm.

A true rolling code is something different. It rolls the keys based on a series of prime numbers and uses a series of non-similar encryptions, the first to choose the keys, and the next to choose the actual code.

Crackers haven't been able to get a good read from systems on newer model cars for quite some time. The only exception to this would be those with intelligent key systems and the cheaper theft deterrent systems, because they are promiscuious. This means that a cracker with a receiving antenna can monitor a transmission and then based on the type of encryption identified, use statistical inference and a constant stream of packets to determine the code. Most of the older systems use 32 bits, which makes the process a lot easier.

rommey

"Crackers haven't been able to get a good read from systems on newer
model cars for quite some time."

Are you saying Crackers haven't been able to get a good read from
systems on new TL's? If you are going to say "yes" I've got numerous
police reports proving you wrong. If not, just wanted to make sure you
weren't including new TL's. My apologies if the latter is the case.

jl_forum

Hi guys, I will give the dealer a call, although I am not quite sure if they know themselves. I found that in this forum there is sooo much more information that I probably know more than the dealer on certain aspects of the TL just from reading it. Unfortunately, I read somewhere else that the TL does not have rolling code, as I heard a story account of someone that had their code stolen. I'm not sure which year the TL was but I'm sure that it still leaves it open. If I remember correctly, it was a 3rd Gen... cant be 100% sure though. I will give the dealer a ring and ask them. Can any recommend a good aftermarket one just in case though? I heard many good things about the Viper system. The same company, Directed Electronics, make the Clifford system, which I have heard good review about as well. Can anyone confirm this or have personal experiences of their own which they can recommend? Thanks!

triggle

Sorry this one's going long.

The Remote's made by Omron in Japan. It's a 313MHz and appears to be a code roller. I have the schematics and other related materials. Here's a direct quote from the Omron's Operational Description. The .PDF files are available online in the FCC database. Just do a search there on the FCC-ID string on the back of your remote control.
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/

"5.1 Transmission frame
The transmission begins immediately in case of any button is pressed.
The transmission frame consists of the synchronous frame and the data frame . The synchronous frame has 324 bit codes that it will be used for the receiver to wake up. The data frame consists of 28-bit length identification code, a 24-bit security code, 4-bit function code and 8-bit quality check code.(sometimes). 16000000 different identification codes are available. The security code is always changed in case of any of the buttons is pressed. The transmission time is typically 220 milliseconds."
Yes, I included their typos.

In a standard linear remote control nothing changes with each button press. Each button press that matches the key of the receiver passes through to trip the desired relay or pull the output of a transistor low but no codes CAN change as the security key is hard wired in some cases changeable with dip switches. Many garage door openers still use this very insecure system. Code grabbers can make short work of these remotes being so simplistic. If your garage receiver has dip switches get rid of it and get a Genie Intellicode receiver or equiv mine cost about 50C$, in US think cheaper. The Genies work with our Homelink.

The TL's remote is a newer ilk and have some packet checking and security above and beyond the linear remote model. The paragraph I quoted states that the security code is changed for ANY button pressed. This implies a code roller and provides 2^24 = 16777216 different security codes. Their docs claim 16million so close enough. The remote will now transmit a different code every time the same button has been pressed. This does not imply spread spectrum transmission which would be very much harder for someone to crack.

I don't know how the receiver deals with incomming re-used codes or code-hammering, but if it is well programmed it can be made to be more secure by ignoring hammering and only listening when it stops for a period of a few hundred milliseconds. Now multiply a few hundred milliseconds say 200 * 16M and you now have 888 hours to generate all the security codes. This is how many wireless home alarm systems prevent from being hammered.

I'd like to get my hands on the receiver unit. Maybe one of you who have the electrical systems manual could have a look and see if it has a FCC-ID reference on it and where on the TL the receiver is located. Also be interested to see if the FCC-ID on the back of a US keyfob differs from the Canadian versions. Mine is OUCG8D-387H-A If one of you would post that I'd be grateful. The number would likely be the same for all US models. My Canadian TL is using 313.85MHz it is possible the US model uses 310MHz. I've verified that Seat 1 and 2 remotes have the same FCC-ID.

Anyone have a way I can post the .PDF files ? My picture host won't take them.

triggle

Rommey please give us some details about this.

Yoda117

I'm going to definately say yes, because you are talking about the exterior alarm, and one of the comments mentioned was referring to the actual key code (not key as in encryption code). That can be read when the immobilizer is disengaged, but requires you to be rather close... the preferred method for bypassing this level of security is much less genteel, but faster.

If you are speaking about the electronic theft-deterrent system, then the answer is yes, it can be done... used to take a bit longer until recently (sorry kids... new tools, new threats). However, you cannot drive off with the car with this deactivated.

Like I said earlier, for 2-300 dollars, you can get a better theft deterrent system and not have to worry about it. The one thing that I like about the better systems is that you can set it's recieve rate, reducing the amount of hammering (flooding) attacks that could occur.

gochan

i have a viper alarm install, not the one with the fancy remote but the one right below it. got the remote start in there too. but i have no idea if it has the rolling code.

triggle

Vipers sales literature should be clear about the unit if it is a code roller. I would expect any recent unit from them to be. To be certain run the FCC-ID on the back of the remote and check the details.

With the Viper did you have to use both the TL and Viper keyfobs on your keyring or just one or the other ?

gochan

i only use the viper one. funny thing we are talkng about this today. yesterday my alarm started going f-ing crazy and i didn't know why. i would unlock the car with my viper and the alarm would go off. it was driving me crazy. then i finally realized what happened as i was driving the car. somehow the factory alarm was arm, so when i unlocked the viper the car thought i was breaking in. so i ust went to a vacant lot, turn offed the car got out (alarm went off ) and just deactivated it with my key.

triggle

Could one of you guys please post the FCC-ID number from the back of a US model keyfob. I'm trying to do a comparison to the Can model which does use a rolling code.

Yoda117

Think so... using what they refer to as a "code hopper"

Depending on the model, depends on the encryption algorithm used for the actual transmission of the code.

Contivity

US model and Can model have the same FCC ID

rommey

Code hopping ability is what you want. Also, the Viper line is excellent. They back up their products 100%. Now if we can figure out how to keep the crooks from using a flat bed tow truck to steal your car. I guess if they want it that bad, I'll let my insurance co handle it.

bef

The back of my fob has 3 lines of info:
FCC: OUCG8D-387H-A
IC: 850G-G8D387HA
G8D-387H-A

jl_forum

Hi guys, finally got around to asking the dealer about this. He said that he couldn't find anything about it and it probably doesn't have it... Can anyone else confirm?

Contivity

Edit: link fixing

Here's the images and pdf files that I've got from triggle
04-05 TL remote G8D-387H-A CODE HOPPING
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D-387H-A Block.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D...nal Photos.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D...ional Desc.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D-387H-A Photos.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D... Schematic.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D-387H-A Tests.pdf
http://www.77thave.com/acura/FOB G8D-387H-A Users.pdf

Earlier model for comparison purposes G8D-444H-A NON-CODE HOPPING.

Earlier model for comparison purposes G8D-444H-A NON-CODE HOPPING.

Earlier model for comparison purposes G8D-444H-A NON-CODE HOPPING.

triggle

To clarify CONTIVITY's post the pics are of the NON-CODE-HOPPING remotes that appear identicle but have no code hop features. To view the CODE hopper features check the .PDF files.

CODE HOPPER = G8D 387H-A
NON CODE HOP = G8D 444H-A
there may be other models that are similar as well.
I've noticed about different 5 models of this remote on the FCC-ID site.

Contivity

x

gochan

word. if they really want it that badly i'll make sure to get really good insurance.