Whats up everybody, our family is looking at buying an TL Type-S as a new family car.

We have our eyes on a WDP 08 with 49K KMs (~30K miles) fairly low mileage that is listed for $25K. Seller will probably go down 2-3k as he is desperate to sell. Problem here is, I asked him what kind of fuel the TL uses and he told me that he just puts Regular (87oct) in instead of the required Premium (91oct).

Will this have any effect on the long term reliability of the car?

 

No problems, and with regular, no spirited driving, one probably wouldn't notice any difference, however when pushed, performance and fuel mileage will suffer. Only concern would be the use of off brand, low cost fuel as the premium brands contain better additive packages. Not that this will cause a concern, it is only a possibility, but if the vehicle runs fine and passes inspection, pick up the car and start feeding it premium and you'll be good to go.

The car may still be covered under the factory 5yr/100km warranty depending on the initial in-service date.

 

I say you'll be fine. The car probably runs a bit rough and doesn't perform a peak efficiency. Switch it back to 91 and you'll be fine. I wouldn't flip flop repeatedly though.

Putting in reg probably didn't save him any $$ in the long run.

 

At 30K miles I wouldn't worry. If we were talking 100k+ miles then I'd be concerned about possible internal damage from running lower octane fuel long term. Running lower octane fuel in an engine that requires higher octane results in the knock sensor having to retard timing to compensate for pre-detonation of lower octane gas. This can result in carbon deposits/gumming up of the valves and internals. Get some premium in there from Chevron or Shell and possibly consider seafoaming it. And of course, make sure it's running decent when you buy it.

And if you decide to buy it, always use premium. It's not a gimmic. There's a science behind octane and compression. High compression engines don't like lower octane fuel. Aside from potential damage, the loss of power and mileage offsets the savings at the pump.

 

Well, you could get the Type S.....or an LP700-4.

 

Maybe he already has a LP700-4

 

Yea I already have the LP700-4 ............in Forza 4

Still contemplating on this. Family is looking to buy a new fuel efficient CUV (Mitsubishi RVR/Outlander Sport), while im trying to convince them the savings in the overall cost of the vehicle will be like 5 years of gas for the TL-S.

Its gonna be something around 25-28k for a used TL-S versus something like 36-38K on a brand new fully loaded Mitsubishi.

Man i hope i win this battle.

 

i would go with the TL-S instead of a mitsubishi. even though the RVR is one good looking Family sub suv.

 

Type S all the way, it's a 4 door, it's the perfect mix of luxury and sport, what more do u need? lol there's barely any more around on the roads these days, and with 30k miles! that's a hard find at least in my area.

 

You shouldn't have any problem with the Type S and the fact you found such a low mileage one is a big plus.

 

Yeah push the TL as much as you can. Not only is the TL great but it's years ahead of some of today's cars in terms of tech and styling.

 

It wouldn't be a deal breaker but I would certainly inspect the car well. The resulting detonation from low octane has a cumulative effect on the bottom end and headgaskets. You can have a single detonation event like my turbo car where I've literally shot a piece of the headgasket out but it's usually cumulative and the damage is unseen. These cars don't just detonate at heavy throttle on 87 octane, they detonate pretty much all the time except for idle. I've watched the knock retard for hours on a scanner before.

It hammers the pistons, rings, and rod bearings along with the head gaskets. Over time it adds up. If the car was driven easy, that's a plus. Low miles is a huge plus in this case. If it's been driven in a cold climate, that's another plus. One of my concerns is that if he cheaps out on the fuel, how was the rest of the maintenance performed? Did he do 15k oil changes on dino, has the trans fluid or any other fluid ever been changed?

Like I said, it's not a deal breaker, just do a thorough test drive. These engines usually out last the cars with the bare minimum maintenance. With the low miles I wouldn't even bother with a fuel system cleaner, just running premium for now on should be enough to keep the fuel system clean. Fill her up with premium and enjoy. I would also reset the ECU if you want all of your performance back at once. You don't have to but it can take a day or two for the ECU to bring all of the timing back in for maximum power and mpg.

 

Agree with IHC and also meant to mention to do all the normal due diligence with buying a used car (carfax, have it looked at by a mechanic, etc...)

 

If we do end up with a TL-S we definately will get it inspected. Probably by an Acura dealership so they know whats up.

I've searched the forums and people seem to be getting around 19-21 avg MPG city? The car wont be driven very much on the highway so it is going to be a almost 90% city driven car.

Im pretty sure that 4-5MPG over the RVR will be worth the fun and luxury of a TL-S

 

I'm getting dramatic fluctuations depending on driving style and speed. I averaged 36 MPG on the 350 mile trip home, after picking the car up. Short trips with a cold engine result in about 16-18 MPG city driving, warm engine can get 24-28 MPG city. Just going down the street it can be as low as 4-6 MPG with a cold engine.

You should expect about 20 average over a tank, 19-21 sounds about right. This car is quite efficient cruising at 60 MPH, but it sure is a pig getting up to speed.

 

You also have to remember that city mpg varies from person-to-person and the type of traffic and city they drive in. NYC owners will more than likely get less mileage than someone who lives in say Atlanta or another place roughly half the size of a metro. Average speed is a good indicator on mpg. The higher the average MPH the higher the MPG.

 

I average high 20's, low 30's MPH, which gets me 22-24 MPG. I usually get like 300 miles on a tank.

 

300 miles on how many gallons of gas? Here in canada that would be around 480kms on a tank?

I live in Vancouver, BC so traffic isn't too much of a concern. However the risisng gas prices are a bit of a concern. Its now up to around 1.60-1.70 per liter of premium.

Theres two other TL-S which have popped up online which one is from an acura dealer, still WDP, but with 109k kms on it selling for 19,990.

Thoughts?

 

Even the base TL over the other makes you listed.

If we are talking TL-S? FOR SURE do it.

I drive local and highway, a good mix of each...the speeds posted around my suburban local roads usually range from 15 mph neighborhood to 45 on the mile roads.

Highway i drive around ~75-80 mph. My mpg on the lowest of end for a tank is 22 while i've gone all the way up to 34 all highway. I usually fare around 24-25 mpg average. But I guess it's because my local roads do not involve as much stop and go as per say, NYC as someone mentioned. It really does vary depending on location

 

i'm getting around ~400kms a tank here in edmonton, 350 the lowest to 450 if i'm lucky, last tank was 378 and 424 prior.
sucks with b.c gas prices, we're paying about 1.27 premium right now and i'm complaining lol

 

^Yea freakin BS gas taxes drive up the prices so much here.

Choice is a little biased here as im asking on a TL forum eh? LOL

 

I won't deny the bias as I own one, but even before I had this vehicle I was a toyota/lexus type of enthusiast. Even back then, from an objective point of view, i'd still take Honda/Acura over Mitsubishi any day . They are just solidly built cars. The TL has quite possibly been my favorite car I've ever owned. Lots of tech, good creature comforts, and a little bit of sportiness both in terms of styling and driving. It is a very good compromise.

 

87 won't hurt the car unless it is pinging. But these cars don't ping much. And even then, climate has a lot to do with pinging. I live in Dallas and used 87 a few times and never heard a ping once, even during the summer. Pinging is predetonation. That is when the gas ignites before the spark plug fires. So termpurature has a lot to do with it. 93 octance has higher combustion temperature. That's why it doesn't usually explode before the spark plug fires. In other words, that is why it is harder to make it ping. But again, as long as there was none or little pinging, for a prolonged period then I wouldnt worry about it. I think the owners manul recommends not putting in 87 for a prolonged period, but I don't think you will suffer any major damage. I would go for it if the price is right for the condition. Don't seat the small stuff.

 

Trolling again, Chad?

The only reason I reply to this crap is I worry that someone might believe it.
You can't always hear pinging. If you can hear it with your ears, you're already past the acceptable level. On a scanner, my car shows knock retard on 91 octane in the summer time.

Let's step back and clarify, pinging is the sound you hear when you experience detonation or pre-ignition.

It's usually limited to heavy throttle but you will still get some driving normally. I've verified on a scanner via the knock sensor, not what you can hear with your ears and certainly not a guess or an opinion.

One thing is for sure, the TL is pinging anytime you're accelerating on less than 91 octane.

These cars are very prone to detonation even on premium.

There is no such word as "predetonation". There's detonation and there's pre-ignition.

No, that is called pre-ignition.

No, 87-93 and many race gasses "combust" at the same temperature. They have roughly the same btu content. Ambient air has a small influence at what point a fuel will detonate but there are many larger influences such a the TL's very high 11:1 compression ratio and... wait for it...... octane of the fuel.

It is not supposed to "explode", it burns quickly. If it's exploding, that's the definition of detonation. Detonation can also be caused from pre-ignition when you have two flame fronts colliding. One from the pre-ignition and one from the spark plug. Detonation can also cause pre-ignition.

Nope.

Detonation, pinging, pre-ignition is one of the worst things you can do to your engine. You also spend more money running 87 due to the loss in mpg and let's not forget the loss in power.

 

Look who's trolling. What a nightmare. Anyone can Google engine pinging or predetonation or preignition and learn all about it.

 

Even the owners manual say 87 can be used at times. Read it yourself. If they are willing to warranty the powertrain under those circumstance then I think they would know. Plus I've never heard a tl ping. But not saying its not possible but maybe if you screw with your factory setup it might have ailments. Like a custom intake. Which can give more air and cause more pinging than normal. Mixing in more air leans out the fuel mixture and causes heat to rise faster and thar can cause it to detonate early. It's like water vapor in the atmosphere. Dry air gets much hotter than more moist air. Same principle. Also, those metal cans some of u all use on your intake just heats up the air more than a plastic orifice. So double whammy. Don't screw with your car like that and you won't introduce problems like u always do.

 

Yes, Chad, google "predetonation" and quote the wiki definition here for everyone to see.
87 can be used when there's nothing else as the owner's manual says. However, as I've said several times, the effects of detonation are cumulative. It's not going to cause instant engine failure unless you're making substantially more power than stock............but.......... the damage adds up over time which is why you should never run it.

As I stated, it can have detonation without audible pinging. If you can hear it, you're past the safe threshold. Whether or not you can hear it is irrelevant, it's there as evidenced by the scanner and I'm pretty sure I trust the knock sensor over your ears.
My engine is and always has been factory stock. It's got the stock air filter in the stock airbox.
That's why we have oxygen sensors. They check the ECU's pre combustion calculations post combustion and adjust as necessary. Ever heard of long term or short term fuel trims? This is the 02's corrective work, the fuel trim.

A lean mixture is easier to detonate because it burns hotter and there's less cooling effect from the fuel being injected into the air stream.

There's no such thing as "detonate early". Any detonation is at the wrong time. Detonation is not acceptable at any time.
Do you think air moving at 200mph through a pipe with very little surface area has a chance to pick up any real heat? Hopefully you say no.

Water displaces oxygen but does not cause detonation. In fact, it can have the opposite effect.

Anything else, Chad?

 

Hmmm. Guess I don't know the history here, but seems like some definitely exists.........

 

Yep, just a little. This guy insists on spreading mis-info, questioning facts, and generally misleading people and when cornered he will eventually revert to stating he's an engineer which I'm highly doubting. He will eventually flip out and disappear for 6 months. Doesn't matter, I'm just here to clear things up.

 

Gotcha. I've read a lot of what you have posted on AZ, and it all seems solidly founded and sound. Don't know that I have ever seen anything posted by Chad.

 

...back to the topic at hand

I live in Hamilton, Ontario and I get 8L/100km on average (mostly highway) or about 550km per tank of gas (to empty).

Dealerships might offer a warranty with the car which is nice, but typically what happens is when someone trades a car in it gets recycled at an auction where other dealerships (or used car lots) will scoop it up...IMO when buying a used car, the only real information you have to go by as a consumer is the Carfax report and ideally you only want to see 1 previous owner with no insurance claims.

p.s. most dealers have Carfax memberships that provide them with unlimited searches/reports so they should provide this to you for free or if dealing privately you can pay for it yourself.

 

OP - Keep us posted.

 

Not much happening yet, they are willing to look at it maybe next week sometime.

Give me some reasons why we should buy a TL-S instead of an RVR

 

Mitsubishi RVR? They are completely different vehicles. What do you need? What do you want?

 

Yea its a weird comparison. Family likes the RVR cause of the great fuel economy, tall-ish profile, AWD, the good looks, and the amount of room in the car.

I think that since we're living in Vancouver, it doesnt even snow that much we dont really need AWD, even though the TL-S is a bit of a guzzler it will be worth it since buying a used TL-S will be significantly cheaper than a brand new RVR. I want to have enough power in the car.

Right now we've discovered these TL-S and i'm trying to convince them that the TL-S is a good choice aswell, and try to get that car instead.

It is going to be a family car and people carryer so in that sense the RVR has the edge, but im sure the TL-S is equally as capable.

 

If it is going to be the family hauler, you may want to consider the RVR, but don't know how big your family is or how big are the little ones. We have an 08 TL-S and an 07 MDX. The X does the family hauling for obvious reasons. I have two teenage girls and they need their space for themselves and their stuff. I get 30+ MPG on the highway in the TL-S and best we have ever gotten in the X is 24.5MPH. We absolutely could be using the TL-S, but I don't fight it. Biggest complaint is leg room behind my seat as I am over 6 feet and like to have the seat back. If it is just two or three of us out and about, everyone seems to love the TL-S, but for a three hour ride to the in-laws, it's the X

Based on the quick Google review of the RVR - it seems a little anemic in the HP department, no?

 

^Good stuff. Problem is, again we dont have to use highways to go anywhere in vancouver, so highway MPG isnt really something that helps.

We looked into the MDX and RDX but both were pretty bad in gas mileage as well as being expensive new.

Yea the RVR has like 148hp and a CVT which pretty much knocks out the entire fun factor.

 

148 HP and CVT means absolutely no fun factor. Absolutely not a fan of the CVT.
What about a CR-V? Pilot? Seems like the Highlander is very popular as well. RAV4? You need to give some thought to what the real priorities are. The Type-S is a nice car all the way around......... just saying.