Why can't the rest of us see?

 

When I was shopping for a TL, the dealership I purchased my car from let me test drive their demo 5AT. While I was driving it around, the salesman told me to floor it once we got onto the freeway just to let me experience the smooth power the car had. I floor it and all I could say was "WOW!!!" However, I wanted the 6MT in the first place and ended up getting it instead. After driving both types of transmissions, the 5AT does seem to pull harder than the 6MT in the lower rpms. But the 6MT is just so much fun!

 

My last car was a BMW 5-series with a manual. With that car there was a huge difference in torque-i-ness and 0-60 times when you compared it with the automatic. I test drove both.

However, i test drove the manual TL after driving the automatic and was not very impressed. The seat of the pants feel was about the same. And on paper it the TL 6spd is only a 0.3-0.5 difference to 60mph, which is significant but I couldn't really feel it on the road. (and I slammed the gears on that thing)

Only way to tell is to drive them both for yourself. And, i do use the tiptronic...i think the TL has a great system and it holds the gears (except 1st) (and the accompanying exhaust growl) all the way to redline...NICE.


Oh and don't forget about the more pronounced Torque Steer with the manual and LSD. i did not like that AT ALL.

 

If you search under SouthernBoy's posts you will see a LONG ASS POST from his altimas.net days. I know that it has helped me when I was driving. He has posted it over & over again for other people...if you can't find it, let me know...and I'll try and look for it...I know I've even saved it because I thought it was so good.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth Bluenoise

My dealer actually had my exact color combo w/nav on the showroom yet with the MT.. I looked, smilled, but had to walk away. Waited 3-4 more weeks for my AT w/nav to arrive. I have no regrets. I know from all of my previous 4 / 5 / 6 speed MT vehicles, that the times I "liked" the MT were minuscule compaired to the times I "wished" I had an automatic... You just don't spend that much time needing or wanting to race through the gears.

 

To MasterShake;

Here you are.



Note: As it says, this is a collage of various postings I have made over the past one and a half years on the altimas.net website. So you are likely to see redundancy as well as a few other items of disarray. But enjoy and I hope you learn something.




PROPER MANUAL TRANSMISSION DRIVING TECHNIQUES

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!

Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing and other extreme conditions such as towing constitute a whole different approach and, as such, do not come under this.


Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.

Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.


Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.


Do's

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.

Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.



I spent some time teaching a lady with whom I worked 10 years ago these techniques when she purchased a new '92 Honda Accord LX. When I last spoke with her, she had well over 140,000 miles on the original clutch with no signs of slippage. So I'm not jerking anyone's chain here. Learn to operate a manual transmission correctly and you will reap the rewards by saving a lot of money. Plus you will be one of the few who know how to do this right.

I don't mean to set myself up here as some kind of guru because I am not. But I have been driving vehicles with manual transmissions for over 40 years. I have spent the time to perfect the process into an art form because when done correctly, that’s what it is. When I sold my '88 Mustang LX 302CID, it was 6 years old and had 77,000 miles on it. When the buyer drove it, he asked me when I replaced the clutch because to him, it felt very positive. I told him that I had never replaced it and that it was the original unit. I added that it wouldn't make any sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that is not very much wear. He had a little bit of a hard time believing this, but he did buy the car. Three months later, he called me up to let me know how much he liked the car and to tell me had had not wrapped it around a tree. He again asked about the clutch and I again told him that it was the original clutch.

I used to own a 1966 Chevelle SS396/360HP. I was the original owner of the car. For a period of about 2 years, I was street racing the car frequently on the weekends. At 83,000 miles when I sold it, it would still break traction in all four gears and the clutch had no slippage. It was tight and strong. Now granted, American cars have traditionally had stronger clutches than Japanese cars. This is changing because the Japanese are putting larger and stronger (torque) engines in their cars.



Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out a bit (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.

Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Double clutching was a technique that came about when earlier manual transmissions did not have synchronizers. If you did not double clutch, you would experience some serious gear grinding when shifting.

If you did not have synchronizers in your transmission, you would have had two choices when shifting gears: (1) put up with some really serious grinding and damage/breakage to gear teeth, or (2) manually match the speed of the gears in each selected shift so that you would eliminate the problems just mentioned in #1.

Suppose you are traveling in second gear, the engine is turning at 2500 RPM, and you are getting ready to shift to third. At the road speed you are going, let's say that once in third, your engine would be turning at 1800 RPM. When you remove your foot from the gas, the engine is going to loose RPMs quickly and by the time you get into third, the engine might only be turning 1200 RPM. Without synchronizers, you would need to raise the engine back up to 1800 RPM in order for the gears to mesh. By blipping the throttle and at the same time letting the clutch out some when you are passing through the neutral gate, you will both increase engine RPM and increase gear speed. As the engine RPMs fall back off, they will reach a point at which you will be able to complete the shift.

Since for years, manual transmissions have been fully synchronized, there is no need whatsoever to double clutch when upshifting and I definitely recommend against this practice.

Now downshifting is much like this, only in reverse. In other words, you are going from a higher gear to a lower gear so if your engine was turning at 2500 RPM and you wanted to shift to second, You would want to blip the throttle enough to raise engine speed to perhaps around 3200 - 3500 RPM.

When you are upshifting, the RPMs fall off and most people find it pretty easy to adjust to this and to add throttle at the right time so that when the clutch comes back out, they have the proper RPM's for the gear selection/road speed.

However, most people downshift by (1) removing their foot from the throttle, (2) moving the shifter into the next lower (or chosen) gear, then (3) slowly releasing the clutch while adding little or no throttle. This is NOT the proper manner in which to downshift. What you are doing in effect, is riding the clutch in reverse. In other words, you probably wouldn't dare attempt to start your car off in third gear because you would have to add a lot of throttle and really slip the clutch to get the car moving. When you downshift like the example I just gave, you are doing something similar to starting off in a higher gear, though it does take more energy to get a car moving from a dead start. Now if you double clutch during the downshift, you are spinning up the gears and the transition to the next gear will be quite smooth.


Junkyard asked a question about the concept of “passing through the neutral gate”. You don’t stop or stay in neutral. You are just passing through, so to speak. In your second question, you said I had mentioned to put the car in neutral when downshifting. Not exactly. Try this with the engine off.

Put the car in fourth. Depress the clutch and shift to third and let the clutch out. Now do the same thing, only this time as you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out some or a good deal and blip the throttle, then clutch back in, get into third, clutch comes out for the final time. That is the movement you want.

Incidentally, blipping the throttle is just a little stab at the petal, enough to raise RPMs to the desired level. You do not want to be on the throttle long because you will be in the process of shifting. Yes, this does take a lot of practice and may not come easily for many, but it is the best way, in fact the only proper way, to downshift because it very significantly reduces clutch and synchronizer wear (especially clutch), and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to do it quite fast.

The bottom line to all of this folks is to match engine speed to wheel speed in a given gear, and to do it in such a manner as to eliminate undue trauma to your drive train. I do this all of the time and have been downshifting like this since my late teens. I actually learned it from a magazine article (as I can best recall). If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly operate, all of the components and how they perform together, you will understand the beauty of the process.

Oh the grinding noise Junkyard hears when he starts letting up the clutch too quickly is most likely due to not having fully engaged the gear teeth and they separate (pop out of gear). That or he actually begins engaging the gear teeth before the clutch is fully depress so there is still some flywheel/disk/pressure plate contact.


One of the things I noticed right off the bat on my SE was that the clutch began to engage much too close to the floor for me (a contributor to the problem Junkyard has had). It was starting to engage about 1 inch from the floor, so I adjusted it out to 2 inches and it is fine. If you do this, just make sure you have the required toeplay, otherwise you will prematurely wear out your release bearing.

The purpose of letting the clutch out some as you pass through the neutral gate is to spin the gears up in preparation for the speed at which they must be at for the lower gear selection. This will allow you to get into that gear very easily. When you depress the clutch, you disengage the crankshaft from the transmission. The gears in the transmission will begin to slow down. By letting out the clutch some (or completely) in the neutral gate, you once again, MOMENTARILY, engage the full drive train and get the gears spinning. Only this time since you have blipped the throttle, they'll be spinning faster. As they slow down from the higher speed, your clutch will be coming out for the final time with the transmission in gear and the mesh will be smooth.

Try it both ways. Do it first the way you do it and notice that you have to add a little bit of force to get the shifter into gear. That's because the synchronizers are doing their job of gear speed meshing. Now try it the way I outlined and if you do it right, you will have virtually no resistance as you slip the shifter into your chosen gear.

Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.


To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.

 

Oh and as PoochaKannInc said, it is from my Altima days and please excuse the redundancy. It is a collection of things I wrote on that site.

 

Hey SouthernBoy, thanks for all the info!! Very informative! I'm still trying to digest some of it right now. Did you PM me anything else? I don't have any PMs...? Did you unsend it? I really like what you said though. It makes me feel more confident about learning MT.... hehe... makes me want MT a little more now...

Bluenoise: I take it that you like the AT very much so? And that the Tiptronic works well for you? For all you AT drivers, how well do you feel the Tiptronic "fakes" MT? Is there a severe lag? Will it still provide the "fun" I am lookng for? Finally, it seems to me that you can redline on all the gears you want except 1st. Is that true?

Thanks again, all. =) Hope to hear from you soon!

 

SouthernBoy speaks with the experience gained over many years of driving manual transmissions, including some "rock-crusher" manuals that came with some performance cars in the day. I can relate. Even after synchronizers became common, they were still not used in first gear or reverse (at first).

Once you understand the process of the clutch and gear selection, and once you obtain a feel for the particular car you are driving, you know how much the RPM drop is between gears. For instance, you know that shifting from 4th gear to 5th gear will drop the RPMs about 600 (just an example- each car is different). You can verify this with the tach but it really becomes a sensory thing that you feel and hear as you become one with the drive train (pardon the Zen).

When you are very familiar with your car and its drive train, you can actually shift all the way through the gears without using the clutch (once you are moving). Likewise, you can down shift the same way without the clutch and without grinding. I DON'T RECOMMEND YOU TRY THIS unless you have a beater car and just want to experiment. But, if before you shift, you are neither accellerating or decellerating, there is no pressure on the gears and you can shift to neutral with no effort. Then, you allow the RPMs to drop until they are matching the speed of the next gear which will allow you to engage those gears smoothly.

If you can do this smoothly without the clutch (DON'T DO THIS WITH YOUR TL), then you have mastered the techniques as given by SouthernBoy and the clutch just makes the whole process smoother and "forgives" errors in speed matching.

"Double-clutching" is something we had to do on the farm with tractors and "jitnies" (ancient pick ups with the bodies cut off) as none of them had synchronizers on their trannies. 90% of manual drivers will never do this or even care. That's unfortunate because it can be a lot of fun and you really get to know your car. For me, that's the big reason for having a manual in the first place: to be more connected to the machine.

SouthernBoy: I bet you wish I hadn't brought this topic up.

 

To Xpditor;

Not a bit. You did a fine job.. as usual. You know, I have to clean that text file up a bit because it really is too redundant and kinda messy.

 

Yes, I love my AT, but it's the whole car I love and not necessarily the transmission. For most of my driving, the transmission is great, but there are those few times I miss being able to shift directly. Still, the speedtronic is a passable substitute. There is a lag that tells you that your shift is merely a request to the system and not a command. Other than first gear, it can be slammed all the way up to the rev limiter. I found this out when I first got it and tried to maximize my acceleration. I nudged the lever up as I neared the redline, but the lag was long enough that I hit the limiter before the shift and got a little chug. I've corrected my timing to avoid this problem. Also, even though it shifts into 2nd automatically, stomping the gas at that point makes it downshift again. I wish there could be a firmware upgrade to get rid of the 1-2 autoshift, but I'm not going to lose any sleep waiting for it.

 

Hey BlueNoise, thanks for the reply. I take it when you shift, its not the actual shift that takes time, its the delayed response? You make it sound as if I shift early using the tiptronic, I could achieve a "shift" when I want it. Am I incorrect? Or is both the response and actual shift delayed? Thanks.

 

The lever moves the instant you push it forward or backward, but the actual shift happens a beat later. Think of it as "click...thump" where the click is the move of the lever and the thump is the shift. It's not a long delay, but it's not a direct link like sequential shifting in a Formula 1 car or a motorcycle. It's most like a regular automatic transmission when you shift from 1 to 2 to D. You move the lever, but there's a brief wait for the actual shift.

 

Hi Bluenoise, I guess I should requote my last question. From what I understand of your reply, if I shift one second prior to when I want the car to change gears, the gear change from 1st to 2nd is almost instantaneous, there is just lag from pushing the tiptronic up a gear to it actually happening.

I just want to make sure its not shifting super slow (for example, someone new to using the clutch make take their time pressing on the clutch and then shifting, resulting in a two second delay in the gears actually shifting, as the car is in the "neutral state" between 1st and 2nd gear). Thanks!

 

Ah, I see your point. The lag is in the time between you moving the lever and the shift event. The actual shift event is the same as it is when the car is in automatic mode, specifically, instant. The RPM just drops. There is no coast time, like on a fully-manual shift while the clutch is disengaged. Essentially, it's just like any other AT where you can shift 1-2-D. It's just ours has five gears. This means, though, that it is difficult, if not impossible, to blip the throttle to match RPMs before releasing the clutch. This can sometimes give a rather hard shift. I've learned to set the gas pedal before a downshift to prevent the sensation of downshifting and popping the clutch while the engine is at a low RPM.

 

I don't know any automatic that can do the rev-matching besides the new G35 automatics. Can the mercedes do the same thing where if you downshift, the computer can blip the throttle and get the rpms to an appropriate range?

 

I have an auto but I have been told by others on this forum that, if you leave your foot in the same position, disengage the clutch to shift ^ up, the computer will let off the throttle to match RPMs smoothly to the next gear..

I haven't verified this myself but it was not challenged when the member asserted it.

Have any of you with a 6MT tried this? Does it work the other way around- downshifting?

The computer will prevent you from over-reving the automatic (5A) either up or down. It will not do a shift unless it is safe to do so.

I love the part in the Owner's Manual that says one should not shift from 5th to 4th at speeds greater than 149 MPH. For real.

-XP

 

Hmm... thanks for the info, Bluenoise... if that is the case, why is the MT that much "funner" than an AT? Theoretically, can't you time the shifts ahead of the and have the same performance? The only difference is you can't make instantaneous judgements but a lot of time, you know what gear you will be in before you have to be in it... or is there something I am missing?

 

Don't forget that AT's have a torque converter which can meddle with your fun. When you let go the clutch in an MT, your transmission and engine are locked at the same speed. Any small changes in throttle are felt directly on the wheels. With a torque converter, there is slippage until the engine and transmission are at the same speed - which is when the torque converter locks. So even if you "time" your shifting in an AT, you still don't have as much control of power delivery to the wheels as with an MT.

 

To Kandyman;

Yep and this is, perhaps for me, one of the most enjoyable things about having a manual transmission. The fact that there is a direct, one-to-one relationship between throttle opening and the feeling you get in the small of your back as the engine responds and sends its power through the drive train.

I grew up in the 60's when the REAL American supercars were king. And I owned an original version in for the form of a 1966 SS 396/360 HP L34 Chevelle (original owner and ordered it to boot). Those cars and their bigger brothers (427 Corvettes and full-sized Chevies, 427 Ford Galaxies, 426 Hemi Plymouths and Dodges) all produced torque in the range of 420 to 490 lb/ft (advertised.. real numbers were commonly a bit higher). The direct relationship between throttle and the pavement with those machines was incredible.

 

Buying and driving an automatic is so foreign to me that I can't even imagine it. That's not to say that I don't think there are any good automatics to be had.. of course there are. But I would become so bored with my TL, and I know it would soon lose its veneer. Yes I know it has a super interior. And yes, I know that the sound system is state of the art. And yes I know... blah, blah, blah. But with me, all of these little niceties take a back seat to what's really important and that's the car's performance and my enjoyment of same. And I can't enjoy this with an automatic transmission.

Heavy traffic never even enters the equation in transmission choice with me. If a car is not offered with a manual, regardless of how nice it might be in all other areas, I would never so much as consider it if it did not come with a manual transmission.

 

The Tiptronic will not let you shift up or down if its not safe to do so. Once, I was in 3rd @ 6000 RPMs and hit the lever the wrong way, the tranny wouldn't let me go back into 2nd. Also, if you're going 30 MPH it won't let you shift into 5th gear.

As far as the lag between hitting the lever and the actual shift, while it's not instantanious, it's no longer than a true manual shift. i.e. <1 sec.

 

Hi guys, for all you with the Tiptronic experience, thanks! It sounds as if the tiptronic system on the TL is pretty good/reliable for fun driving? I cant really see myself shifting using MT in the examples that Thane11 had in his post. Its just cases that don't come up. So I take it you all with AT are pretty happy? I'm still biased towards getting an MT because I eventually need to learn it.... just don't want to be 30-35 when I do! =) Might as well take it out on the TL? Maybe? I hate decisions... but I... need... the... power!!

 

My previous car was a MT and now I have a AT which I love very much in the TL. However I do miss driving MT sometimes. It is alot more fun driving MT because you have more control over the car. Go with the MT since you never had one before!!!

 

I MADE my05 TL AT Chrip 2nd And 3rd Gear when engaged in autostick, (i guess that's why its at acura Getting a new tranny Thank God For Warranty )

 

Been one week now that I have my 04 6sp and it feels great. Been a while I didnt have a manual car so had to ajust myself for 2 or 3 days.

If you'r not use to drive a manual car, read the manual before or have somebody let you practice with an honda civic or VW, its much easier.

The clutch is hard and very HIGH, I drove a prosche 911 Carrera S and it was the same and even harder. You just need to remember to use the clutch only when needed unless your gonna brake it before it should.

The owner manual explain in details how you "should" drive whit your car tranny. I've read almost all my book and have learned alot on small details....

As for the Fuel consumation, I did a 4:45h tip from Toronto --> Montréal (550km exactly) I run all the way at a 8L / 100km average. Sorry I dont know how to convert it in MILES and Gallon. would be nice that someone from the US convert it for everybody...

 

i dont like my auto in a couple of years i will swap out my tranny for a manual

 

wow swap out a tranny... i think this will be the first for a 07 TL and to my knowledge the first for a 3G TL... i think itll cost less if you just trade it in for a manual + some extra money....

yea i wouldn't do that, hella work and will cost lots of money + at the end of it all... might not be as sufficient/reliable as just buying a manual from the factory VS a shop doing it

 

You can easily jump into getting a manual transmission, even if you've never driven one, as long as you really want it. My buddy purchased a brand new Z28 in 2002 without knowing how to drive it. I had to test drive it for him, and even drive it home & taught him to drive the thing. He has never owned a AT since and has been through 4 different cars since. And for those of you that have never driven a manual Z28/Trans-Am, it's not the easiest clutch to learn on. Especially with 350+ lb/ft of torque... Getting the car going from a stop is the hard part. Once you can do that on a hill, you can drive anywhere any time. The rest is simply training your feet to shift smooth, and learning how to choose the right gears for the right situation (this takes the longest).

A brand new car won't have any clutch problems from learning either, and once you've gotten used to it you will never look back. Since my first manual car (94 Civic), I swore I would never purchase another auto in my life. It's been almost 10 years now, and my wife and I have 4 manual cars (03 element, 89 CRX, 94 Civic and 05 TL). The best part is how much more attention to your surroundings you pay when driving as you are actually DRIVING the car (instead of just steering it). My wife is a 100 times better driver now that she only drives stick too (I noticed the difference immediately)...

As for performance, gearing is simply a torque multiplier. The shorter (numerically higher) the gear ratio, the more torque you are putting to the ground. The gearing of the 6MT TL's first 5 gears is not only shorter than the 5AT's, but the 6th gear is still even shorter than the 5AT's 5th gear. Here are the gear comparisons for the latest AT gearing, and the MT:

07 5AT vehicle speed at 7000rpm in each gear
- 1st: 45mph
- 2nd: 76mph
- 3rd: 114mph
- 4th: 177mph
- 5th: 250mph

05 6MT vehicle speed at 7000rpm in each gear
- 1st: 41mph 9.8% gain
- 2nd: 65mph 16.9% gain
- 3rd: 94mph 21.3% gain
- 4th: 128mph 38.3% gain
- 5th: 165mph 51.5% gain
- 6th: 208mph 20.0% gain over 5AT's 5th gear

And as far as fuel economy goes with the 6MT, it's gonna directly reflect your driving style. I average 31+mpg pure freeway driving at 75mph with the A/C on in 90+ degree heat. I get as low as 26mpg, and as high as 29mpg combined city/freeway driving.

 

wait a minute, for the 07 model type S, the auto has no brembos? only the manual? I thought the lsd was the only thing exclusive to the manual?

 

All the Type-S have brembos. Doogles was probably just refering to all the other 3G TL's before them. On 04-06, only the 6MT (TL sport) had brembos. In 07, they discontinued the TL Sport, and came out with the Type-S in both manual and automatic (all of which have brembos)...

 

I have a buddy who has a C55 Mercedes, and even HE says that as quick/powerful as his car is... it's no manual in terms of the fun factor. His second car is a Honda S2000 --> allows him to get his "manual" itch outta the way once in a while.

 

The only car I ever saw this actuall done on was a '96 Nissan Maxima SE auto .. there was a conversion kit to manual but it cost about $6k...

 

Interesting. I have an 04 AT TL. And think the sportshift is slightly more then a gimick. It does not respond that quickly. I have seen other systems (in much more expensive cars) that just work better. The fact it cant hold 1st and shifts pretty slow I don't bother with it too much. I too went though some of what original poster is going through. I ended up with an AT and don't regreet it. As others have said it is a sporty car but, it is NOT a sports car. It is front wheel drive and large (as far as sports cars go).

 

hey guys the new '07 AT tranny's got an overhaul. it pretty much fixes lot of bugs and now has a better torque converter, which improves overall performance. for more info check out hondanews.com go to the acura tab then look for tl and go to driveterrian. its a whole new tranny for the tl.

 

To the OP, go ahead get a slushbox plus a supercharger and the guy with a manual will be eating your dust every time, him-shifting his ass off, you-just cruising and enjoying the scenery or the girl next to you, haha, well you get my point, there is a better use for you hands and eyes, 'nuf said!

 

that'll work!

 

True, the point is this if u got the torque u dont need an manual. i will never buy a manual again not if i am spending over 35K, i had just go custom. get a auto that can handle he power and put the biggest engine u can in there. well unless its a high end luxury.
even then u will find out most high powered luxury cars dont come in manual, unless its a sports car dedicated to the tracks.
At least 350 hp AND 350 lbs or torque will always put a smile on ur face everytime with consistency in a auto, u dont have to miss a shift.
and auto have been proven to be abl to withstand up to 700 hp.
u just need the right combo.
just tk a look at tHE high powered cars, bentleys, bmw 650, benz that push over 350 hp the vast majority are all autos, theres a reason for thAT.
AN AUTO WILL ALWAYS RUN CONSISTENT TIME AT THE TRACKS ALL THINGS BEEN EQUAL COMPARED TO A MANAUL. (THATS WHY U NEED THE TQ)

 

MT!

 

In a flat-out race, a well-driven stick is considerably quicker than the auto in a TL or TL-S - but that's not how you're going to be primarily using the car. In everyday driving, the auto will be quicker and more responsive than the stick, ten times out of ten.

The automatic is quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 99% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 1% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 99% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions.

I know, I know. My mom told me never to discuss religion in polite company, and stick guys (including me) worship the shift lever and clutch, but facts is facts. If you in your stick TL-S and your evil twin in his automaticic equivalent both leave a light at your normal pace (with a 100-yard wall between you so that neither of you know what the other is doing), then he will emerge car-lengths ahead and moving away - effortlessly - ten times out of ten.

I pretty much hate this fact, but it's just that - a fact. Get the automatic.

Bruce