Hi guys,
This is my first post, so please be gentle. =) First of all, I'd like to thank you all for the info that I have retrieved from this site. You guys certainly know a lot. I had a question about automatic vs. manual performance. I am highly considering purchasing a TL. However, I am stuck with the age-old question of auto vs. manual. I read the thread here: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107386 and had some questions to pose for you all.
I am looking for a daily driver in the LA/OC area of nice traffic jammed S. Cali. This unfortunately, presents a problem, as auto is obviously a nice choice for stop and go driving. The other problem is, I do not know how to drive manual. =( (Yes, yes, shame on me.... *sigh* I just never had the chance...) I am more than willing to learn to drive manual but do not want to risk screwing up the clutch on such a nice car. My other issue, is that I would love to have a nice sporty car that still has the refinement found in a luxury car. The way I see it, the TL might be "too" luxurious for manual(???).
My question for you all are the following: For those of you that do own automatics, how is the tiptronic in it? Will it provide me the "fun" that I am seeking for? How is the acceleration of 0-60 different between the AT and MT? (I've read they are about the same but if someone could post real numbers, it would be appreciated.)
For all you MT drivers, how much better does the Brembo brakes perform than the ones that come with the AT? I've also read that fuel economy isn't as good with the MT, which sort of baffles me. Why is that?
Finally, for all you drivers that have experienced both the AT and MT, why should I get one over the other? I have read a lot of responses to the linked thread that MT is much better and that it is highly preferred, but why exactly is that? Please remember that I do not know how to drive MT but am willing to learn, so please take that into consideration. Sorry about the post, I just have many questions. I look forward to having a considerably nice thread conversation over all your experiences. Thanks guys!
Sincerely,
JL

 

Welcome to the forum!
My TL is AT. I have never driven the MT TL. However, I can only imagine that it would have to be great. I just wanted to say that if you are at a point where "fun factor" is a high priority on your list, I don't know that you will get it with the AT. I got the AT mostly out of consideration for my Wife whou can't drive a MT. Although the manual mode is nice, it does NOT give you the quick shifts, the same level fun, or the raw feeling of power ("I am Man hear me roar").
I would say - decide how important the fun factor is and if it is up there on your list - learn to drive it and go for it.
You can't lose either way, it's a Great car!
BTW - This is my first AT Acura, and I have truly come to enjoy the trans.

 

I've had both...2002TLS automatic...and now my '04TL 6mt. I can certainly say with confidence that the 6mt is much more fun to drive....and the Brembo brakes make so much difference that I'd never consider an automatic TL. BUT...if you've never driven a MT car....you should at least learn how to drive one first then decide if you like it before spending $35K on a new car only to find out you don't like shifting. It really is an acquired taste that isn't for everyone.

 

The performance of the 5AT TL is average, in the face of other midsize sedans of similar horsepower. I personally would NOT get the TL in a 5AT; the AT seems to sap a noticeable chunk of torque, of which there's not that much to sacrifice in the TL.

jl, I highly recommend that you learn how to drive stick. It's not that hard and you should learn pretty fast. That said, get a used Civic or Accent w/5MT and practice on those: both shift pretty good and are very forgiving.

 

I test drove the AT and 6MT and went with the 6MT. I wouldn't get the AT. I do recommend the A-spec suspension/wheels/tires. I think they make a huge difference.

I agree with your assessment that mileage is less than expected. I'm only getting 21-22 MPG, no A/C use. It may be because I drive 85 to work every morning.

I drive 70% highway but still only get 21-22. I'll go on a 6 hour trip this week and see if it improves.

 

In general, the higher the torque numbers, the closer the performance will be between the auto and manual. Usually, the manual has more gears to work with than an auto but if there is plenty of torque available, the extra gear isn't really necessary (usuable torque band ). Keep in mind that FWD auto trannies aren't as robust as RWD auto trannies due to miniaturization of components so if you want to mod, a manual would be the better, more reliable choice for the TL. I would say there is about 0.5 second difference between the manual and auto in the TL. I live in So-Cal and if you have to commute more than 10 miles to work/school/whatever, then get an auto. The traffic + clutch = insanity

 

I disagree with the comment that the performance of the automatic TL is "average" among it's peer group. On the contrary, it performs much better than most and a smidgeon better than the hallmark performance sedans like the 3.5 Maxima/Altima twins. I wouldn't even put it in the same performance catagory as a Toyota Camry or Avalon, a Lexus ES, or the American brands of similar proportions.

The Infiniti G35 is slightly faster most times (depending on load conditions) but overall, they are very close and, on any given day, one could best the other.

The Nissan products have more torque. If you have driven them, you know this. They are tuned for low-end grunt. That, coupled with an automatic transmission, gives you a very strong, responsive throttle in normal, around town driving. The Acuras are tuned for power and it comes on higher in the RPM band- especially when the V-tech kicks in about 4500-5000 RPM.

I have had an automatic 2004 TL for almost a year. I live in the suburbs and most of my driving is in town, stop and go. I have yet to have any other car get away from a light ahead of me. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later- but not so far.

I play with the "tiptronic" or sport shift often. It allows more control over RPMs and gear ratios. Sometimes you want to drive in 4th instead of lugging in 5th. And, sometimes you just want to manually go through the gears.

However, it is complicated to hold 1st gear. You can't do it in Sport Shift. It will automatically shift from 1st to 2nd and then hold second until you shift it.

The work-around is to start in LOW on the auto side which WILL hold 1st gear. Then, shift it over to SS for 2nd and subsequent gears.

I think you give up about .5 second 0-60MPH or less with the auto. Car mags have gotten 5.6 sec with a 6MT and 6.1 with the 5A. Mind you, 6.1 is nothing to sneeze at. That's hauling some ass for a luxo sedan. The difference is even smaller at the end of the quarter mile.

In the real world, driver skill and load are both big factors. For instance, a 260 pound driver with a full tank of gas and a passenger in a 6MT will not be able to beat a 150 pound driver with 1/8 tank of gas driving alone (and who knows how to get the most out of his car) in a 5A - all other things being equal. (I've done the math!)

But, it's a moot point because we are Acura drivers and we don't race each other. We're saving it for the other marques.

Interesting that, on the Honda news link, they refer to the RL as a "performance luxury sedan" and the TL as a "luxury performance sedan". Very subtle.

You can't escape the fact that the TL is a compromise ride. It is a high tech, luxurious family sedan that also performs and handles extremely well. There are cars a little more luxurious; there are cars a little faster. But none anywhere near its price range offer such a great combination of features and performance.

 

PS: I forgot to welcome you to your home-away-from-home: Acurazine.

You have already found it useful in preparing for a purchase. I'm sure that you will learn a lot about Acuras and meet lots of new and interesting people here that are always willing to help out.

-XP
Acurazine Mod Squad

 

Let me know when you relocate to Central NJ.

 

You've received some good information in response to your post. Take all of it into consideration, then add the intangible, subjective fun factor.

I have a very strong bias in favor of manual transmissions and that's what my TL has. Driving in heavy traffic is not an issue with me because I don't get into that much of it and it wouldn't make any difference to me anyway.. I'd still get a manual.

One other thing. If you do decide on a manual transmission, learn how to operate it the right way.. not like most people do it.

 

I have had two Maximas that were quick and bullet-proof. I have a special place in my heart for all things Maxima.

I have rented 3 new Maximas recently- each time for a week. Compared with my TL, they were cruder, more plasticky, much noisier- (especially opened up), and a bit dated style-wise. On the plus side, they were much torquier. And with that comes torque steering. Driving one at 10/10ths is like riding a bull out of the chute. Yes, they are scary torquey. On slightly damp or dusty roads, they will burn the street tires all the way through 1st and part of 2nd while snapping the heads around for 3 blocks to see what all that fuss is. Meanwhile, like the bull rider, the driver is fighting to maintain directional control. When you get used to it (as I'm sure you have), you can anticipate it and adjust for it.

My TL is smooth as silk. Like a turbine that builds up power with rpm. As magazine testing numbers show, auto for auto (4A vs 5A), or stick for stick, the TL is quicker.

I have no personal experience racing one but let me say this: I love Maximas but I do not fear them.

Y'all come to Florida but bring your lunch.

 

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the responses. That was really quick! The problem with learning manual is that I do not have the money to allocate to a beater car w/insurance just to learn manual. I am planning to learn from a friend and then start driving the TL. Is this not a good idea to have this as my first manual car? The idea of the automatic still appeals to me for commute driving to work (~45min) but on nights and weekends, I really want to have some fun with the car (although in LA/OC, you still have traffic). I eventually was even considering modifying the car and/or taking it to the track. If so, I assume that I would need a MT, correct? My other question is will having a MT cost more in repairs than an AT? Thanks for all the info guys!
Sincerely,
JL

 

I have had my 5AT for almost a year.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that 4 doors and MT do not mix. Simply because most 4 door cars are not designed with sport as its primary focus (however there are some - M5, Evo) especially a FWD 4 door. Realistically, the TL is not a sports car. I would only call it a "sporty" luxury car.

I do drive in stop and go traffic daily (Bay Area) and that was a factor in my decision as well.

I don't use the tiptronic at all. I know how to drive a manual and really enjoy the control and response of it. The tiptronic, while giving more control, simply does not give me enough response. I think it's pretty useless - how often do you race? The only time when I push the car is when merging onto the freeway or when I have a little opening and I cannot control myself.

 

I finished my response just after this.

If you plan on taking ANY car to a track you have to get the manual. Are you kidding me? Why would you want to try to run on a track with a slushbox?

Running on the track aside - you have to decide the fun v. pain in the ass factor. Driving on So-Cal freeways is a workout in an AT, a MT will require a cool drink and a nap when you get to your destination. On the other hand, nothing beats a little tail wagging, downshift in a MT. (although tail wagging in a FWD is foolish)

 

Is MT really that much of a workout? I would suppose that over time it would just become another part of driving? For example, when I started driving, I couldn't believe how freeways were super jammed and it sucked being stop and go. However, over time, I just dealt with it. I just get frustrated now when I am in a hurry or feel that I am wasting too much time and get mad at myself for not choosing another path (BTW, does Navi offer traffic situations on freeways?). So is the problem with MT the fact that it is traffic in general or actually using the clutch and stick?

As for racing, I wasn't planning to do it all too much. Its more like "I want to race but am not going to do it on freeways and endanger people's lives, so I will do it on a closed track" kind of feeling. Its more to get the need for speed out of me once every two to three months. I do understand that it makes no sense to drive an AT on a track, but if I will hate MT during my commutes, vacations, etc., then I think it might just be better with AT??? Not quite sure yet. I haven't heard too many responses from people with strong opinions towards AT yet besides XPDitor. I'm just really worried about missing out on "fun" because I got the AT opposed to the MT. I just don't want to regret it on my daily commute either... *sigh*

For example, I was highly considering the new Mazdaspeed6 that is coming out this summer. I was at the LA Auto Show to see it (practically the whole point of going) when I saw the A-Spec TL... *drool* Soooo... after deliberating and writing posts on about 5 different Mazda and Acura forums (I like this one the best for Acuras... so much info =) I got my heart set on the TL A-Spec... however, costs for the kit make it a little unreasonable for me. Over time though, I saw how much more refined and elegant the TL was than the Mazdaspeed6. Overall, I guess it will come down to price but my heart is with the TL, so I am probably going to get it. Nevertheless, back on topic.

It comes down to
1. I don't know stick but I will learn
2. I rather have AT if it can "compare" to MT in performance (though I would greatly miss Brembo brakes)

Has anyone really pushed an AT? It seems like everyone who has an AT doesn't push it and MT drivers do? Everyone also seems to say that for fun, go with the MT. Do people with AT not have fun with their cars? If so, I'm going to have to end up with a MT... =) Hehehe... so AT people, please let me know! Thanks again guys! I'll post again soon!

 

I have a lot of fun in my TL, but I tend to like turning fast more than just going fast. In the turns is really where having a MT is the most fun.

You know I have an AT. I've hit corners in my TL pretty fast and let me tell you (I dont have a sway bar or A-spec suspension), this car understeers like a mother-! You can really feel all the weight of the car being pushed to that front outside wheel and this is when the car feels like a tank. I think there is enough power and the AT is decent enough on the straights.
So what I'm trying to say is, that I love turning fast and fast turning is best with MT. The TL, however, is a front-heavy, FWD car with a ton of understeer (unmodded, don't know about sway + A-spec). Even with the suspension mods, I don't see the TL as being truly gratifying out of the corners - merely adequate. (excellent for what it is,though - front heavy, FWD)

Driving a MT in traffic isn't as bad as I made it seem earlier, but it can be a pain - especially if you have to do it ALL the time like you will in LA.


I'm a bit long-winded and apologize, but in the end it comes down to what you like. Drive both and decide for yourself.
The first car I owned was an 83 rx-7 with a 5MT and I LOVED that car (wish I still had it). There was nothing more fun than flying into a turn, slamming on the brakes, downshifing and tearing out of the corner with tires screaming on the brink of total disaster. ( I was a stupid kid)

 

By far and away, the most common reasons/excuses I've seen and/or heard people use for not getting a manual transmission are: driving in heavy traffic, and costs due to parts replacement.

In fairness, the first is totally subjective. I find it more an excuse to convince oneself NOT to get a manual than the other way around. In other words, there may already be some doubt in the buyer's mind already and the traffic thing is being used to affirm the buyer's reason for going with the automatic. Nothing wrong with that. But for a diehard like myself, traffic doesn't even enter the equation.

Now for the second reason; repairs and associated costs. IF you learn how to PROPERLY operate a manual transmission (and believe me, most don't), maintenance and repair costs of an automatic will significantly exceed those of a manual transmission. The reason is simple. There is nothing magical or unusual about a manual transmission. They are relatively simple beasts. And don't let anyone tell you you'll go through a clutch in 50-70,000 miles. You might if you don't know how to properly operate the thing. But if you learn the correct way to do this, expect the clutch to go well into the first 100,000 miles and more than likely over 200,000 (barring anything unusual like racing, towing, or such).

The bottom line is.. there isn't one. You are the one who will be pleased or disappointed with your decision 6 months from your purchase. For me, if a car doesn't entertain me, I quickly lose interest in it. The manual transmission in the TL is a good one and a lot of fun to use, plus it gives quite a bit of satisfaction every time you start the engine and drive away.

 

This has been one of the most debatable topic AT or MT. In your case, I would take the time and learn to correctly drive a MT before you decide to purchase. Test drive both and take it from there. SouthernBoy has contributed numerous threads on shifting (post #12) and it is worth reading. It's a tough decision and the only one you gotta please is yourself. As for me, after finding out a MT was available, there was no question that was what I wanted. Although, it took me about 1100 miles to get the "feeling" of the clutch. Now it's like butta, real smooth.

 

There will always be a discussion for MT side and for AT side.

Bottom Line..Get what works for you.....nuff said.

 

You can get the wrong impression about the 5AT, especially if you drive a brand new TL. Now if the car has 1k miles or so, your opinion will change. I was on my way to Virginia last year when my car finally decided to really let loose. I like the car even better than we first bought it. I felt the same way about the stereo until I listen to it now. It seems like someone came and replaced my stereo with a good one. Now I'm not saying its the best but it sounds 10 time bettter than when I bought the car back in May04 new.

 

Hey guys, you guys seem to keep mentioning driving a MT the "correct" way. What exactly do you all mean by that? As I mentioned before, I don't have the money to purchase a different car to learn stick before getting this one. So, I will have some practice due to learning but I am sure I will be learning on this car too if I buy a MT. Would it be a bad idea to get a MT then? Thanks, all.

 

I had the same experience at about 2500 miles (last week) The mileage changed from 17 to 22 for the same route and the performance is much improved. It was always good, but now it's much better.

The gearing is so high that I don't have a chance to stretch it out often except on the Turnpike on ramp. Then I run it up to 100 just to get the cobwebs out.

As to learning MT on a new TL... it might be the best way. You can't hurt it unless you try to change gears without disengaging the clutch- and there's even a way to do that (right Southernboy??). You might also tend to slip the clutch more than you have to as you are learning but I don't think that's anything the car can't handle.

I say it might be best because the clutch in the MT TL has a personality all its own. It's different from most other cars as to its travel and engagement point. Starting with a clean slate, you're not expecting anything so you might learn quicker than someone who has to "unlearn" their old habits.

I also agree about MTs and 4 doors. I would much have preferred a CL but Acura is not making one yet. If I had gotten a CL, I would have probably gotten a 6MT. A manual in a 4 door luxo sedan seems a little bit of an oxymoron.

I always thought it was even weird in a BMW 5 series. You have all these fancy electronic automatic features, but you're still manually doing the most laborious part. WTF?

 

By correct way we mean:

1. Don't ride the clutch. (using the clutch as a foot stool when you're not shifting)
2. Don't drop the clutch. (reving the engine and then putting the car into gear)

 

I love shifting gears. I have not driven the 5MT because I know I would have bought it. I needed an automatic because my wife will drive the car occassionally. That plus this is a very good automatic and I spend a lot of time in traffic.

Under ideal conditions ie. good driver who knows when and how to shift gears, a manual transmission will generally win. Problem, as SouthernBoy mentioned is that most aren't that good at it. Your mind wanders or your leg jerks and you have a less than perfect shift and lose RPM and speed. Same thing happens with your gas mileage. Getting good at shifting is an acquired skill and requires attention and practice to keep your skills up. A good automatic like ours is at least consistant and pretty efficient. The Sportshift can provide some fun and a sense of control as a substitute for MT.

If I were going to sit in traffic twice a day on the freeways of OC/SoCal, no way for a manual for me. But that's just me. The other thing is if I were buying the most expensive car I could afford, no way I'm taking it to the track. I need it for work on Monday so I can make the payments. It's doubtful that you will keep the car forever so just decide and go for it. Both are very good. Just my $.02

 

manual was the only way for me!!!!

southern boy gives lots of good tips, read up on it. the tl clutch is different then most, the tranny is very smooth. you will like it....

heavy stop and go is a pain in the ass. but driving on open roads and rowing threw the gears makes it all woth it

 

As I obviously will be new at MT and will suck, how much mileage can I plan to lose? =) I think that Xpditor may be right about the clutch not getting too messed up from learning on it. Can anyone confirm that for sure? If so, I'll probably get the MT...

 

Depends totally on how you drive the car. The range will be broader with the MT because of driver control w/ gear selection. I would think that once you get the hang of shifting the larger factor will be how much time you spend sitting in traffic. I can get my mileage down to 14.5 or so if I do lots of heavy acceleration (sp). Or I can keep it in the low 20's if driven easily. On the road I can get high 20's.

If you just love hearing the sound of the engine and shift @ 6000 RPM, your mileage will suck. If you shift 2500-3500 RPM, it will be better. My folks told me long ago that everything I like cost money.

I think a clutch still cost less than $1000 installed. If you get 75K-100K that should be a few years down the road. If you race you'll get less, if you baby it or get really good, you can get more miles, YMMV.

 

Actually if you are serious into track drag racing you would use an auto in ANY car. Yes the manual may be faster is some respects but manuals has more chance of error. Manual trans are also not consistent for timing. Manual trans are a diffrent story on the street where these things don't come into play.

 

One of the best things about my 6MT is the Brembos. Although I have grown used to them now, when I drive it off of the lot, I noted that the braking comparison between my TL and my 1994 Accord was like night and day. They squeal a bit at times, but I hardly ever hear it with the stereo on.

As far as torque, I think that I am able to get much more out of the 6MT than the AT that I test drove. While the AT is quick, you can put the power right where you want it with the MT. While some criticize the TLs torque compared to the G35, etc., I have nothing but good things to say. I can't imagine it being much more powerful at low speeds, for a FWD.

A side note--I don't mind driving it in traffic in the least. And my last 2 cars (Honda manual trannies) have gone over 150K miles without needing a new clutch, depite everybody telling me that I would need to replace my clutch as often as my tires.

 

Wow... that's really low mileage... Hmm... not sure if I want that low of mileage... Can you throw around an AT though and still have fun? No one can seem to answer that... something more like GT type track than drag... Sorry that I seem to be reiterating the same questions, just not getting the answer I am looking for... =p

 

To doogles;

People who tell you that about clutch replacement as often as tire replacement know absolutely nothing about driving a manual transmission.


To jl_forum;

I'll try to send you some info about this topic later today when I get home from work. You'll probably not understand a whole lot of it, but it's a start.

 

SouthernBoy, I agree, in fact my history is a testament to the invalidity of their statements. Maybe they had bad experiences in the past because they simply didn't know how to drive one.

 

To doogles;

I'm sure you're right about that. I can accept the fact that most people drive a manual the way they do because.. well, they probably know very little about cars. But a gearhead doing this is unacceptable. They are supposed to know how clutch assemblies operate and what affect operating them wrong has upon them. I can't tell you how many times I've ridden in an enthusiat's car and when he downshifted, he just slipped the shifter into the lower gear and started releasing the clutch. No rev-matching, no neutral gate pass through throttle blip.. nothing. Just in with the clutch, lower gear, and out with the clutch. You have to wonder.

 

The six speed has a different character than the auto, the suspension setting are different, the brakes are different and of course the tranny is different. The manual is a sporty luxury car, the six speed on the other hand has real sport car character. It handles better with less understeer and an active rear. The difference in braking is night and day especially in fade resistance. Plus you get all the power that those 270 ponies have to offer. Compared to my TL-s, the auto was better in the lux department but no big difference in the performance department. The manual, on the other hand, was at another level, it offered all the additional lux with a significant dose of additional testosterone. If it weren't for the manual I'd still be driving a TL-S.

 

I have a TON of fun in my 5AT all the time here in Los Angeles - plenty fast enough in between cops. . . . anything faster and I'd just get in even more trouble.

 

Hey guys, great info. SouthernBoy, is there any way to find out what the "right" way of driving MT is? I'm quite sure my friends do not drive with that way in mind... but then again, they are not gearheads either. It sounds corny but I honestly don't know too much about driving manual (obviously because I have never driven one), but would want to know how to drive the "right way". Of course, I want to tear up my car when I am slamming down on the pedal too, but for everyday, I need to know the correct way. Can you send me in the right direction for that?

TL-Mike, my question for you is, have you ever owned a manual and regret getting the AT? Or are you perfectly happy with it? Thanks all.

 

I didn't read all the posts, so sorry if im restating something already said.

I use to own a 98 HOnda Prelude AT. IT was the first of its kind to come with sport shift technology. That car, although didn't have the response that a MT had, was the best sport shifting car i've ever seen.

The computer didn't shift for you, nor downshift. One time i remember, i forgot i had put it in sportshift and i gunned it, and i red lined for about a good 2-3 seconds before i popped it into 2nd.

The TL on the other hand is all computerized. I would be surprised if it even let me go up to red line.

I absolutely depise the fact that it shifts from 1st to 2nd for me.

However, i dont know how to drive stick, drive like a granny, and drive in traffic most of the time, so i got an AT.

 

To jl_forum;

I just PM'd you with a bunch of stuff. Let me know your thoughts and if you have questions.

 

I bought the AT and often wish I had the MT, since all my previous cars had MT. But, I chose AT because I am frequently in traffic and I like the idea of sipping my latte while crawling in stop and go without spilling during a shift.

I use the speedtronic pretty often, though, in situations where I really liked having a stick. On my commute, I get to drive several miles on a stretch of winding two-lane with a 50 MPH speed limit. Doing 55 on that feels real good and keeps me from getting tickets. On that stretch, I like to keep it in third gear so I can better modulate my speed and weight-shift without getting on the brakes. When I'm back in traffic, I pop back to auto mode. On freeway on-ramps, I also lock it in 2nd so I have the torque ready for the merge. This eliminates the lag typical of waiting for the AT to downshift when I need some pep. Once I'm at cruising speed, I pop back to auto and pick up my coffee again.

I didn't bother driving the 6MT because I had already made up my mind and I knew the highly-acclaimed 6MT would seriously cloud my decision. It was the car-buying equivalent to sticking my fingers in my ears and yelling, "I'm not listening! I don't want to know! I'm not listening!"

 

To jl_forum;

Here's a little hint for you. If you have a friend or relative who has said they will show you how to operate a manual transmission, show them the stuff I sent you. If they don't quite understand it or think it's a bunch of BS, you DO NOT want this person as your teacher.