ok, what determines the "Class" of car?
#1
Brother Sum
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ok, what determines the "Class" of car?
My friend and I had a very long chat session about the TL vs the new 3 series BMW. He is as much an advocate of BMW as I am for Acura/Honda. He was telling me...........i'll insert some of the text from the chat here:
My friend says:
I don't know about "Less Car",maybe "fewer options",the car is what it is.
Nothin competes with the 3 or the M3 and holds its own ground.
Then I said:
err.. less HP, less interior room, smaller brakes, smaller wheels,
My friend says:
Less than what?
Then I said:
the TL
My friend says:
They aren't even in the same class,shouldn't be compared.
My friend says:
Acura doesn't make anything like the 3. The IS300, Audi A4 / S4, Infinity G35 Coupe and Sedan / Mercedes C Class and BMW are about the same class of car to me.
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
My friend says:
I don't know about "Less Car",maybe "fewer options",the car is what it is.
Nothin competes with the 3 or the M3 and holds its own ground.
Then I said:
err.. less HP, less interior room, smaller brakes, smaller wheels,
My friend says:
Less than what?
Then I said:
the TL
My friend says:
They aren't even in the same class,shouldn't be compared.
My friend says:
Acura doesn't make anything like the 3. The IS300, Audi A4 / S4, Infinity G35 Coupe and Sedan / Mercedes C Class and BMW are about the same class of car to me.
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
#2
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There was a huge discussion earlier about whether the TL is a "luxury" or "Near Luxury" class car. However, regardless of what the final outcome of that discussion was (Not that it was ever truly decided
), according to a number of places (car magazines, autombile enthusiasts, insurance companies, manufacturers, etc.) The most common denominators for vehicle class would seem to be price, size, level of performance (sports, luxury, utility, etc.) and body style.
That being said a mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan, with 270HP may or may not be in the same class as a BMW3. (hmm 2006 is mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan with 255 hp)
Big diff is the BMW is rear wheel drive and does have more notoriety (from an era that I feel is long gone, but they are trying desparately to regain) they also have worse resale and worse quality.
So your friend may be right ... the BMW may not be in the same class as the Acura TL.
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
That being said a mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan, with 270HP may or may not be in the same class as a BMW3. (hmm 2006 is mid 30s, 4 door, sport tuned sedan with 255 hp)
Big diff is the BMW is rear wheel drive and does have more notoriety (from an era that I feel is long gone, but they are trying desparately to regain) they also have worse resale and worse quality.
So your friend may be right ... the BMW may not be in the same class as the Acura TL.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#3
Senior Moderator
Class is usually determined based on price and sometimes size. This is a problem since some companies offer higher class vehicles (more feature loaded) at value prices, such as Acura.
#6
Make MyTL Great Again
They can't be in the same class...that is why a few months ago i remember reading a post where someone went to a research focus group where they asked a lot about the TL...later he found out it was research by BMW.
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#9
Moderator Alumnus
The class he was talking about is probably "museology", "handling", "German prestige", etc. I would say 3 is awesome, one of my favorites. But I need something better than that for now. Btw, he forgot to add GS models there.
#10
Hes wrong. The TL is definatly in the same class as the Beamer. Beamers are nice, but the 330 is nothin special. the M3 is of a higher class then the TL. As far as luxery is concerned, we have the same stuff as BMW. MB is the true lexury. 24 way serats all around, ventilated seats, electronic everything. But I consider something with leather, heated seats, power most stuff, xenons, sat radio, blutooth, and navigation to be luxery.
#11
Gratis dictum
Originally Posted by crazymjb
Hes wrong. The TL is definatly in the same class as the Beamer. Beamers are nice, but the 330 is nothin special. the M3 is of a higher class then the TL. As far as luxery is concerned, we have the same stuff as BMW. MB is the true lexury. 24 way serats all around, ventilated seats, electronic everything. But I consider something with leather, heated seats, power most stuff, xenons, sat radio, blutooth, and navigation to be luxery.
#13
Originally Posted by cTLgo
FYI
Beamer = BMW Motorcycles
Bimmer = BMW Cars
Beamer = BMW Motorcycles
Bimmer = BMW Cars
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
But no the acuras will never be in the same class at least by everyday people as the BIMMERS bc of the fact that acuras are hondas. BUt there are a few ppyl out there who believes that the Tl is in the same class as the 3 series. I agree with u on this but still its okay for ur ignorant friend to think of that way bc its fairly common. Im gonna test drive the new 3 seris this weekend. I think the new 3 series exceeds the TL just bc of the new looks and the technology behind it. Push start button, HFL, NAvi, SMG, etc. Yes acurra has most of these features too but bmw will always be bmw. IM actually regretting on getting my TL bc i hate the FWD. But thats just me. Heres the thing though... TL>>> e46 3 series...
#14
Thanks, I have heard bimmer once, but commonly hear beamer. I figured maybe bimmer was some explitive so I'd be careful while posting(someone had an SN Bimmerpride(and a few numbers). But now that that is clarified, I will go around correcting people and make myself feel like I am at a higher level then them all. So that 50s BMW 3 or 4 wheeled scooter thingie that had an interior and is thought to have saved that company is classified as a(it was on classic car and driver)??
#15
Whatever floats ur boat. But coming from a M3, i knew that TL was gonna lack in power bc of the FWD but on a roll the TL is faster. But still, miss the RWD on the M ![Frown](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif)
Get whatever u like better. Drive em both
![Frown](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif)
Get whatever u like better. Drive em both
#17
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Originally Posted by jtow
My friend and I had a very long chat session about the TL vs the new 3 series BMW. He is as much an advocate of BMW as I am for Acura/Honda.
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.
5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
#18
Originally Posted by crazymjb
Wait, the TL out does the M3 on a roll? From what speed? Thats crazy!!!
#20
Originally Posted by EZZ
No it doesn't....at least post 95 anyway. The m3 is faster from any speed (including the e36 m3).
#21
Originally Posted by TL Tita
Um yeah of course the e46 or the e90 is faster. But the e36 dosnt pull on a TL from a roll, say like 60 or so. It will be dead even and if anything the TL will pull. But my M was heavily modded and yes the M are fun to mod
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#22
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by jtow
My friend and I had a very long chat session about the TL vs the new 3 series BMW. He is as much an advocate of BMW as I am for Acura/Honda. He was telling me...........i'll insert some of the text from the chat here:
My friend says:
I don't know about "Less Car",maybe "fewer options",the car is what it is.
Nothin competes with the 3 or the M3 and holds its own ground.
Then I said:
err.. less HP, less interior room, smaller brakes, smaller wheels,
My friend says:
Less than what?
Then I said:
the TL
My friend says:
They aren't even in the same class,shouldn't be compared.
My friend says:
Acura doesn't make anything like the 3. The IS300, Audi A4 / S4, Infinity G35 Coupe and Sedan / Mercedes C Class and BMW are about the same class of car to me.
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
My friend says:
I don't know about "Less Car",maybe "fewer options",the car is what it is.
Nothin competes with the 3 or the M3 and holds its own ground.
Then I said:
err.. less HP, less interior room, smaller brakes, smaller wheels,
My friend says:
Less than what?
Then I said:
the TL
My friend says:
They aren't even in the same class,shouldn't be compared.
My friend says:
Acura doesn't make anything like the 3. The IS300, Audi A4 / S4, Infinity G35 Coupe and Sedan / Mercedes C Class and BMW are about the same class of car to me.
So my question to the board is what really determines a vehicles "class"?
#24
Brother Sum
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Originally Posted by Batman-JGII
I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear your feedback. IMO classes of cars use to be very simple to define but now it’s all jacked up. I think it all depends on the characteristics you want to use to define a class. I tend to use length and performance. For example anything that is less than 190in to me can't be considered luxury. Anything from 190in to 195in I would call a med sized luxury car and anything larger than 195in I would call a full size luxury car. So based on my logic (even if it is flawed) I would not compare the 3 series to the TL. My comparisons would look like the following:
3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.
5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.
5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
#26
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by TL Tita
i just dont think u can put acuras in the same class as bmws. U can talk about performances or whatever, but the names say it all...
#27
Gratis dictum
Originally Posted by Batman-JGII
I was thinking about this the other day and I would love to hear your feedback. IMO classes of cars use to be very simple to define but now it’s all jacked up. I think it all depends on the characteristics you want to use to define a class. I tend to use length and performance. For example anything that is less than 190in to me can't be considered luxury. Anything from 190in to 195in I would call a med sized luxury car and anything larger than 195in I would call a full size luxury car. So based on my logic (even if it is flawed) I would not compare the 3 series to the TL. My comparisons would look like the following:
3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.
5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
3 Series = TSX = C Class = S40. All what I consider Sport Coupes or Sport Sedans.
5 Series = TL = E Class = GS = G35 = M35. All what I consider Midsize Sport Luxury Coupes or Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
7 Series = S Class = Lexus LS = Q45. All what I consider Full-size Sport Luxury Coupes or Full-size Sport Luxury Sedans depending on the model you get.
If you noticed the RL is not in my list. I think this is why the car is not selling because it is caught between two markets. It is not big enough nor powerful enough to compete in the full-size sport luxury market and it is too big and not powerful enough to compete in the midsize sport luxury market leaving it a$$ out. So what you guys think
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
#28
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I think the TL is as nice, or nicer, than a 330i sedan. Now that it's been restyled, the 3 series might be nicer, but I have not seen one. I passed on a 2005 330i because the back seat area had no leg room, and the 330xi was about $40K. RWD 3 and 5 series are terrible in snow, just ask some owners.
#29
Brother Sum
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TL vs. '06 BMW 3
I uploaded a side by side comparison with the TL and the 2006 BMW 3. It was taken from the msn auto site.
Side By Side Comparison
Side By Side Comparison
#30
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Originally Posted by TL Tita
Thanks. Haha i was gonna jump and fix the common misconception ![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
But no the acuras will never be in the same class at least by everyday people as the BIMMERS bc of the fact that acuras are hondas.
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
But no the acuras will never be in the same class at least by everyday people as the BIMMERS bc of the fact that acuras are hondas.
Basically, if you have a set amount of money you want to spend and know the type of car you want (SUV, Sport Sedan, pickup, whatever...) then anything you shop in that style and price range is theoretically in the same "class". End of story.
If you wanted a $35K sports sedan and shopped the TL, 325i, c230, Saab 93, G35, and Maxima, then OF COURSE they are all in the same class. Do people think some brands have a better reputation? Of course! But that doesn't mean those cars aren't in the same class as the rest. The Maxima has less "prestige" than the BMW, but what you lose in prestige, you gain in interior space and engine size. Go with the BMW, you get a more fun to drive car, and a luxury label, but end up with a smaller car. However, at the end of the day they are both $35K sport sedans and are shopped by people looking for those. Hence they are in the same class.
So what I did was make a short story long, and in summary: ABSOLUTELY the TL and the BMW 325/330 are in the same class.
#31
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TSX vs. '06 BMW 325i
Length (in.)
'05 Acura TSX: 183.30
'06 BMW 325i: 178.20
If someone can tell me why I would want a BMW 325i over my TL, I'm saying forget about the price, just tell me how it's better... i'm willing to learn, just come with some FACTS.
Length (in.)
'05 Acura TSX: 183.30
'06 BMW 325i: 178.20
If someone can tell me why I would want a BMW 325i over my TL, I'm saying forget about the price, just tell me how it's better... i'm willing to learn, just come with some FACTS.
#32
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Originally Posted by cTLgo
FYI
Beamer = BMW Motorcycles
Bimmer = BMW Cars
Beamer = BMW Motorcycles
Bimmer = BMW Cars
A Beemer is a BMW motorcycle.
The discussion of car class is semantics. No absolute, objective answer exists.
The 3rd Gen TL is roughly equal to an E36 M3 in straightline speed. The M3 has an advantage from a stop due to the superior launch ability of RWD. The TL has a better chance from a roll. It is a driver's race, not that real driver's care about such 'races'.
#33
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...all I know is that I love my TL and I still haven't come up to a light and thought, "Damn, I wish I would've bought that instead!"
Honestly, whether it's because I think my TL looks better than that car next to me or because of the satisfaction that my TL is paid for (plus all the goodies on it, too
), I've never felt any regret on my decision. Now, of course, I'd love to have a BMW 7 series, or a MB E600, or an NSX, or an F50, but that list can go on and on and any one of those vehicles would not satisfy all my needs (you know, practicality, price, etc.). So, I'm happy with my Type-S and the only thing I "wish" I had is everlasting mileage!
Honestly, whether it's because I think my TL looks better than that car next to me or because of the satisfaction that my TL is paid for (plus all the goodies on it, too
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Too Cool](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/toocool.gif)
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#34
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by jtow
I uploaded a side by side comparison with the TL and the 2006 BMW 3. It was taken from the msn auto site.
Side By Side Comparison
Side By Side Comparison
I assume new BMW body which compares quite well with the TL in size and rear leg room. I's still take my TL.
#35
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Originally Posted by jtow
If someone can tell me why I would want a BMW 325i over my TL, I'm saying forget about the price, just tell me how it's better... i'm willing to learn, just come with some FACTS.
And for the other guy, I'd say the 5-series BMW, especially the 530i and 545i, is in another class compared to the TL.
#36
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Originally Posted by jtow
If someone can tell me why I would want a BMW 325i over my TL, I'm saying forget about the price, just tell me how it's better... i'm willing to learn, just come with some FACTS.
For most people who don't drive 7/10s or above, these things don't matter. For those who do, the TL is simply too large, too heavy, particulary in the nose, and has too much power going through the front wheels.
#37
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Originally Posted by Repecat
Some of your logic escapes me. You stated that anything less than 190 inches in length was not luxury. The TL is 189 inches long, yet you put it in your sport luxury sedan class. Kind of contradictory it seems. Perhaps you should adjust your parameters.
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
You are right. I guess I should have said "around" that target.
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
#38
Originally Posted by EpiK
Does that mean Lexus is not in the same class either because they are Toyotas?
Basically, if you have a set amount of money you want to spend and know the type of car you want (SUV, Sport Sedan, pickup, whatever...) then anything you shop in that style and price range is theoretically in the same "class". End of story.
If you wanted a $35K sports sedan and shopped the TL, 325i, c230, Saab 93, G35, and Maxima, then OF COURSE they are all in the same class. Do people think some brands have a better reputation? Of course! But that doesn't mean those cars aren't in the same class as the rest. The Maxima has less "prestige" than the BMW, but what you lose in prestige, you gain in interior space and engine size. Go with the BMW, you get a more fun to drive car, and a luxury label, but end up with a smaller car. However, at the end of the day they are both $35K sport sedans and are shopped by people looking for those. Hence they are in the same class.
So what I did was make a short story long, and in summary: ABSOLUTELY the TL and the BMW 325/330 are in the same class.
Basically, if you have a set amount of money you want to spend and know the type of car you want (SUV, Sport Sedan, pickup, whatever...) then anything you shop in that style and price range is theoretically in the same "class". End of story.
If you wanted a $35K sports sedan and shopped the TL, 325i, c230, Saab 93, G35, and Maxima, then OF COURSE they are all in the same class. Do people think some brands have a better reputation? Of course! But that doesn't mean those cars aren't in the same class as the rest. The Maxima has less "prestige" than the BMW, but what you lose in prestige, you gain in interior space and engine size. Go with the BMW, you get a more fun to drive car, and a luxury label, but end up with a smaller car. However, at the end of the day they are both $35K sport sedans and are shopped by people looking for those. Hence they are in the same class.
So what I did was make a short story long, and in summary: ABSOLUTELY the TL and the BMW 325/330 are in the same class.
#39
Originally Posted by MR1
If this is true for you, fine. Can we then consider you a brand shopper? Does price=class? What are you basing your conclusion on?
thats why the bmw is ahead of acuras. PLus BMW has done well with their Ms. Acuras.... well s2k and rsx? Differnt league. Same as the NSX. No moron would pay 90 gs for a nsx. Personally i would go with the gt 3 with that money
#40
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by TL Tita
RWD>>>>>FWd
thats why the bmw is ahead of acuras. PLus BMW has done well with their Ms. Acuras.... well s2k and rsx? Differnt league. Same as the NSX. No moron would pay 90 gs for a nsx. Personally i would go with the gt 3 with that money
thats why the bmw is ahead of acuras. PLus BMW has done well with their Ms. Acuras.... well s2k and rsx? Differnt league. Same as the NSX. No moron would pay 90 gs for a nsx. Personally i would go with the gt 3 with that money