Here is a link to the actual analysis report of the factory fill in JetJock's '04 TL:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...=002220#000000

Judging from the report, the only special characteristic of the oil is its high molybdenum content. Now, after seeing this report, I'd dump the factory fill at 2K, refill with Pennzoil 5W/20 for 3K, and change every 5K thereafter with Pennzoil 5W/20 and Lube Control (http://www.lubecontrol.com/).

Quite a few owners on Bobistheoilguy.com (BITOG) have changed out the factory fill on their Hondas before 4K, some even at 2K and have experienced no oil consumption problems.

Michael

 

Have you thought about mobil 1? Even though 90% of engine wear is done at startup, Mobil 1 minimizes wear. They had a closed engine run the equivalent of 1 million miles and when open up, the sleeves didnt show any wear whatsoever. Now if they turned it off and started it 1 million times that would have been a different story, but at least you know if you use Mobil 1, you eliminate most of the 10% of the normal engine wear.

 

Remember, this isn't my car. Its JetJock's. I'm just saying, if this was my car, I would have done have done the first oil/filter change at 2K, after seeing this report. Before seeing this report, I would have done the first oil/filter change at 5K. Now that I know, the only special thing about this oil is its high molybdenum content. I think JetJock currently uses Redline 5W/30. By the way, another user has posted an analysis of the factory fill on the same car within the thread I started on BITOG.

Michael

 

Also, no matter what oil you use, during the first few oil changes, the wear is going to be slightly higher than normal.

Michael

 

The Mobil 1 test I think you might be referring to was done using a BMW (4-cylinder as I recall (318i?)). Pat Goss with MotorWeek reported the results on the show. The car was run on a test circuit for over 1 million miles. The oil was changed on a regular basis (don't know the interval frequency), using Mobil 1. After the test, the engine was removed and the parts were layed out on tables. There was no appreciable wear to any of the major parts (only parts highlighted in the report). The cam, piston rings, cylinder liners, crank and rod bearings were all in exceptional condition.

Now this really doesn't surprise me. Not because it was a BMW, but because with proper maintenance and careful use, and engine can last one hell of a long time. Several years ago, I read of a Dulles Airport taxi cab with over 500,000 miles. This is a full-sized Chevy with the famed small block; one of the finest engines ever produced.

The primary enemy of an engine is neglect and abuse. Take care of them and treat them right and you'd be amaze how long they will last.

 

I was told by the dealer not to dare change the oil until the MID said to do so. In all my previous cars (2 Acura TL's), I changed the oil between 1000-1500 miles. This time, I took the dealers advice and waited. I got cold feet when the oil was over 6months old, and the MID said 30%. After the analysis report, it's obvious I waited way too long. I'm currently using RedLine 5W-20, and will let all you guys know what the next analysis comes up with. I'm a believer in oil analysis, and my results prove that the MID isn't accurate. I wish I went with my gut instinct and didn't listen to the dealer, or the MID, and changed the oil at my usual 1500mile first oil change. Don't listen to the dealer guys, get that factory fill oil out of you engine sooner than the MID says. I'm really sorry I waited and hope I didn't do too much damage to the engine by keeping that factory oil in so long. BTW...when I finally did change it out, the MID just changed to 20%, and I had approx. 4000miles on the OD.

 

I change out factory oil at 1K, DEALER put in 10W30 which I questioned as it should have been 5W20. So at 1.2K I put in 0W20 Mobil1 and have changed the oil at about 4K intervals since then (using Mobil1 0W20) or when the MID gets to about 30%-40% and at 16.3K I have no measurable oil consumption problems.

 

I did my first oil change at around 3000 miles.. quite a bit longer than normal for me with a new car. I have since used a 5000 mile interval, but am giving serious thought to going to a 4000 mile change interval.

This idea of wasting resources is nonsense. I recycle my old oil which makes it to fuel for furnaces. So I don't see that as a waste, since it serves double duty.

 

90% of wear does not occur at start up. And it is less true every year.

The interval issue has been discussed enough, though IMO - I have nothing to add. And Honda's factory fill is there for a reason - oil control and wear control are related, but separate issues. Honda is quite clear about break-in oil and synthetic oil use in their F20C/F22C engines, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Road Rage....exactly what do you mean about Honda's recommending that the break-in oil? According to the oil analysis I had done on my engine, leaving it in until the MID said 20% was wrong....as I read the report, I should have done it way sooner. My dealer told me to leave it in until the MID said to change it, but I got cold feet when the oil was 6months old and the MID said 30%, so I changed it the following week when the MID just changed over to 20%. The analysis seemed to indicate the oil was "shot" and should have been changed much sooner. Do you have any information regarding the analysis that would indicate otherwise? I appreciate your comments, and this oil analysis is new to me for automotive engines and I'm still in the learning stage with break-in oil and when to change it. thanks in advance for your comments.

 

Some thoughts:

1. Honda makes more engines of all shapes and sizes than anyone else on earth - from lawnmowers to racing engines and now even designs jet engines. So it's fair to say they've amassed a great deal of statistical engineering information about engines, wear, and lubrication.

2. I don' t think the MID oil life algorithm was developed arbitrarily. Honda would have done both lab and field testing of the system doing both extensive oil analysis and engine teardown and inspection to validate it. And it's hardly a new concept or technology with BMW having a similar system in use since the mid Eighties.

3. A sample size of one is not statistically significant to draw any conclusions from.
If 50 people had their oil tested and came up with results that are below generally acceptable levels that would be signficant. I noted in that link referenced above that another person had their oil tested and got different results. That would raise some questions in my mind regarding the test itself.

4. If it were me, I'd be in contact with Honda submitting a copy of the test results to them for analysis and get their response to it. If nothing else, should a problem arise in the future with the engine you'll have proof that you took proactive steps to bring this to Honda's attention.

 

Great idea! As an alternative more input from Road Rage and others would be appreciated; perhaps a look at the analysis.

I'm not stressing about this but I have 2700+- miles on mine with the MID showing 50%. I'm near a decision point and tend to want to go with points #1 and #2 above combined with information provided by Road Rage.

Thanks for this thread michaelwan and to Jet Jock for obtaining and posting the analysis. More thought provoking discussion is always good.

MR1

 

I ran with the MID for my first oil change and did it at the 5% mark.

I didn't have my oil analyzed but will say this much, I've seen dirtier oil come out of vehicles with far less mileage than mine had on it. I realize appearance isn't necessarily signficant. And I did deviate from the process in that I replaced the filter at the 50% mark, prefilling the new filter before I put it on, so the oil did get some additive recharge from that.

For my oil change I went with Mobil 1 5W-30 which is working very nicely even in the -20 deg. temps we've had here. I've just reached 1000 mi since the oil change and, so far, there are no indications of any oil consumption.

Naturally this is anecdotal information, and not empirical, so take it for what it's worth. Was the longevity of the engine affected? Without a tear down and inspection, only time will tell.

 

Hijack for a minute.

I'm such a wimp...any problems with the car starting & running at those temps? It's 60 degrees warmer here today and still cold. I sure don't miss midwestern winters.

 

I'm at 3200, I feel like I should have changed the oil already. I will do it next week and get on to a 4,000 schedule.

 

JJ: The F20C/F22C engines are the S2000 engines with carbon fiber reinforced cylinder walls. Since they use a fair amont of technology that honda has learned from its F1 and other racing programs, I am not inclined to 2nd guess them. But the tribology is similar to any modern engine in the Honda stable.

Did you get a TBN reading? If so, what was it? The Labs are useful, but they sometimes screw up TBN, or use different ways of measuring it, and then compare against standard industry best practices, which suggest that a TBN lower than about 1.0 indicates depletion of the add pack. Without actually seeing you analysis, and knowing whether the the tech was experienced in TBN, I cannot come to any conclusion. Need inout. RR.

 

None what so ever. The car has sat out in sub-zero temps at my work place and fired right off every time. No whines, groans, moans, etc. common to extreme cold. And the engine turns over about the same as during warm weather, which I'd attribute to the Mobil 1.

Overall I'd say my TL run about the same in the cold weather as it does in warm with some reduction in gas mileage, attributable to the colder weather.

 

I changed mine at ~1000 miles as I always have on Honda's and other cars. Could y'all help me with the following questions:

1. What does Honda's "break-in" oil do that oil you would use at another time would not?
2. What are the benefits of the oils mentioned Mobile 1, etc.?
3. How do you have this analysis performed?

Thanks....

 

This is a good post. Thanks for the info coming in from everyone.

 

RR, check out the link I attached to this thread. It has a copy of the analysis report there. The analysis was done by Blackstone, and the TBN was measured to be at 1.9.

Kosh2228- The other person who posted an analysis report of the factory fill from their TL had only ran the oil for 3,300 miles compared to the 4,765 miles that JetJock had ran his for. This makes can make a significant difference since the oil was in the engine for significantly shorter period of time.

Michael

 

I have seen some of your helpful, informative post so I found this for you

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/tl-cl-video-105573/

Almost everything you want to know about oil is either here or there.
The analysis was done by Blackstone Labs , JetJocks old post has the contact information. if you can't locate it, ask again. Hope this helps.

MR1

 

1465 mi isn't that much. The problem I have is that the mileage and TBN numbers are out of context making them hard to draw any conclusion from.

1. The virgin TBN of the fill oil is unknown so there's no baseline to compare to or draw any inference as to how the TBN is declining over time.
2. The driving conditions of the two vehicles are an unknown. And that will have an effect on the oils condition and depletion over time.

RR mentioned that a TBN of 1.0 indicates the additive package has depleted, so at 1.9 that would say, to me at least, that the oil wasn't worn out yet. Granted the other factors have an impact. And the insoluables were just under the limit.

I understand the point being made, what would the oil have tested like had the MID been followed to the letter, but a sample size of one isn't sufficient to draw any conclusion from. Like I stated earlier, 50 samples, with comparable mileage - added condition - that show similar results would be statistically signficant.

What I'm saying is that there's too many unknowns here to draw any valid generalized conclusions from.

 

EDIT: Caught the typo! How embarrasing . Anyway, the TBN of a oil tends to drop most rapidly within the first 5,000 miles or so, since it takes 5,000 miles for the TBN to level off.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

Despite that the TBN was measured using the "old" method, it still showed that the TBN made its most significant drops during the first 5,000 miles or so.

Also, JetJock told me that his car was not "babied," nor was it abused. He gave it some occasional "redlining" I think, but that was about it.

 

Thank you all for pointing me to the TBN. IMO, the oil was not "worn out", and the MiD may still be vindicated. i also agree with michaelwan's good thought processes - the car was driven hard by JJ, so this suggests that the MiD works pretty well, and those who do mostly easy highway miles will get substantially longer service life. We cannot make any valid conclusions until the sample size is increased, and different driver habits and climate conditions can be factored in.

My point about the break-in oil is confirmed again - their factory fill has high moly count, which is why i recommend adding MLEP if you change your oil out early. Honda knows what it is doing.

Most minoils have a TBN of about 5-7, synoils 7-9, and the best oils like LE and RL often higher.

My VOA of LE8130 showed much higher levels of ZDP than any current SL oil, a TBN of 11.1, no moly, plenty of boron and magnesium (part of LE's prorpietary Monolec additive). Remember, Blackstone does not measure ingredients that are part of LE's unique chemistry.

 

When I first too delivery of my '04TL, I took it easy with the RPM's and pressure on the throttle for the first 600 miles or so. I did rev it to approx 5000 rpm's briefly, but used very little throttle pressure. As the car got more miles on the OD, I gradually increased throttle pressure and rpm's until I started briefly using full throttle runs to the redline. I was carefull to vary the rpm's constantly during the breakin period...and having a MT car helped in this regard. As the engine "broke-in" and started to feel better, I started running it harder, but I didn't race the car, or abuse it in any way. I would say that I didn't baby it nor abuse it either. After the car got to 3000miles, the engine seemed to "come alive" and had noticably more power, so I gradually started running it harder. By "harder" I still don't mean racing the car or really pushing the engine, I just like to run thru the gears and use full throttle while shifting thru the gears. I usually shift at lower rpm's in first gear since the rpm's build so fast, and take 2nd, and 3rd gear to just below the redline when shifting. I've probably done this a dozen times at most, and my normal driving style is to shift at 3000-4000rpms while running the gears. I don't lug the engine at any time...this engine likes to rev, and I let it go. My normal cruising is done in 6th gear at 70-80mph. Currently, I've got RedLine 5W-20 in the engine, and plan to change it out in a few thousand miles to insure that all the dyno oil is flushed from the engine and I'm using 100% synthetic oil. I've got another 5.5 qts. of RedLine remaining, then I'm open to suggestions about switching to another brand of synthetic oil. Actually, I'm not so attached to RedLine that I wouldn't switch to another brand if someone convinced me that something else would be better. I'll have another Blackstone analysis done when I do the next change, and post the results. Thanks to Michael for starting this thread, and everyone else for their comments. RoadRage, your comments are always welcome.

 

I'd REALLY like to change my oil too, have 3k on mine w/50% on the MID. What I'd like to know is what could possibly be NOT broken in after 3k? This is killing me, I'm used to building a motor, putting straight 30W ND in it, taking it to operating temp, changing it out, go 200 miles, changing it out, etc. Can't draw anything conclusive from this thread but I'm leaning toward changing it out asap.

 

When piston aircraft engines are built, they also put in ND oil, and run them at full throttle to break-in the engine. Are car engines any different? Boosteddsm...I'd change the oil if I were you. I regret leaving mine in so long.

 

i no this is off topic..... but the mid just said A1 service due soon, how long or how many miles do u think it'll be till its bad? were are about to take a 100 mile trip (200 miles total) with 15% oil; do you think it'll last until the change? we hav almost 3900 miles.

 

Isn't A1 just an oil change and a tire rotation? 200 miles is gonna make much of a difference IMO.

 

From one of my earlier posts, I have included a link to Bobistheoilguy.com. On that site, I've started a thread asking all recent Honda owners who's engines have been factory-filled with the high molybdenum break-in oil, at what mileage did they do their first oil filter change. Most people did their first oil/filter change between 3-4K, and have not experienced ANY oil consumption. Some people changed theirs as early at 2K, one person at 700 miles, and still have not experienced any consumption.

Link: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...=009378#000005

If I was a TL owner, I'd change mine for the first time at 1000 miles and refill with Exxon Superflo 5W/20. At $1-$1.50/quart, it is actually Honda O.E. Oil rebottled. It contains a large dose of molybdenum, about as close to the 500 or so ppm that the factory fill contains as you can get, aside from Redline. The longest that I'd ever leave ANY factory-fill in a vehicle would be 3K.

So for you, boosteddsm, I'd suggest that you change your oil/filter immediately and replace it with either Exxon Superflo 5W/20 or Mobil 1 0W/20. At 3,000 miles, your engine should ber ready for a Group IV based synthetic.

 

Thanks to Michael for starting this thread. I hope it provides some insight for new TL owners into making the decision to go with the MID, or oil analysis when deciding what time is best to do an oil change. Personally, I think oil analysis is the way to go, and it's not that expensive for the piece of mind that it provides.

 

EDIT: Just to make it easier for you folks, I've posted the actual data here:

Vehicle: 2004 Acura TL
Miles on Unit: 4765
Miles on Oil: 4765
Make-Up Oil: 0 Quarts
Time: 3/2004-12/2004
Oil: Factory Fill 5W-20

First column is actual, second is universal averages.

Al 9 3
Cr 2 1
Fe 40 11
Cu 142 18
Pb 5 5
Sn 2 1
Mo 301 43
Ni 1 0
Mn 2 0
Ag 0 0
Ti 0 0
K 2 1
B 23 37
Si 70 12
Na 10 7
Ca 2055 2236
Mg 0 157
P 787 834
Zn 954 969
Ba 6 0

SUS Viscosity @ 210F: 52.7 should be 54-61
Flashpoint in F: 370 should be >365
Fuel: <0.5 should be <2.0
Antifreeze: 0 should be 0.0
Water: 0 should be <0.1
Insolubles: 0.5 should be <0.6
TBN: 1.9

 

I posted in detail on why - it is in the RR Journals - we have done analysis of the factory fill and it has high molybdenum count.

 

It definitely did. Changed mine today w/3100 on the clock and 50% on the MID w/5w20 Valvoline (per RR's recs) and a Purolator PureOne filter, and I feel good about it Next change I'll go to a synthetic. Thanks for everyone's input!

 

Yeah, good thing you did. The high molybdenum content in the factory fill is not sufficient IMHO to protect the engine against excess wear caused by the abnormally high wear metals left over from the break-in period.

Next time, if you ever decide to use a dino oil again, I'd highly recommend NOT using Valvoline. Valvoline's 5W/20 tends to have a rather weak additive package and does not "hold up" very well past 4,000 miles as indicated here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...=001913#000000

Instead, I'd recommend using Exxon Superflo 5W/20. Currently, its onsale for $1.09/quart at Autozone with a case purchase. Honda O.E. oil is actually this stuff rebottled. Honda engines tend to perform very well with engine oils containing a high molybdenum content. Also, look into using Supertech filters for short conventional motor oil "runs," they give you the best bang for the buck during those 4K runs.

For synthetic, I'd recommend using Mobil 1 0W/20. There have been rumors of them launching a 5W/20 version in the near future, as well as the extended drain motor oils. However, Motorcraft 5W/20 synthetic blend offers much of the same performance as Mobil 1 0W/20 for only $1.50/quart. I don't see why I should shell out the extra money for Mobil 1 if it doesn't last twice, or three times as long, when Motorcraft is 3 times cheaper.

Hope this helps

Michael

 

Ahh, you're right, RR said Havoline was one of the good ones, not Valvoline Looks like I'll change this one when it goes 3k.

 

Actually,

RR said:

In this thread:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101214

In the same post he said:

and

 

I think RR was referring to the Valvoline Durablend, not the Valvoline All-Climate 5W/20 which I think boosteddsm used. (Please Confirm)

RR also said this: "Valvoline's additive package is generally not considered to be as advanced, but their UOA's look good. The buzz for "oil heads" is that Valvoline is "old school", but gets the job done, while MC is more advanced. I will say that the MC UOA's, in a wide variety of engines, has looked a bit better to me than Valvoline's. "

I personally think that MC 5W/20 Blend gives you much of the same performance as Mobil 1 0W/20 for 3 times less. Therefore, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it for $1.50/quart at Wally World.

Michael

 

BTW, RR said that Valvoline Durablend outperforms some minerals oils in general (Group III syns, synthetic blends, etc), but for a PURE mineral oil, one that is not a synthetic blend, he suggested that Havoline 5W/20 is a good bet.

I still recommend the Motorcraft 5W/20 synthetic blend though.

Michael

 

This is a good thing I haven't done any damage to the car. My car is coming in shortly. What are the suggestions as far as when should I change the oil out and also what kind of oil should I use as a replacement. Can I replace it with Syn Oil (Mobil 1) when I take the factory oil out or is that too early.