The New TL: A Six Dressed Up As A Nine...?
10-30-2003, 09:24 PM
#1
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The New TL: A Six Dressed Up As A Nine...?
Consider:
Cheap leather seating surfaces that are thinner than the competition, and far more prone to wrinkling.
SOHC engine instead of a DOHC engine.
The use of the older VTEC instead of the newer iVTEC
Timing belt instead of a timing chain (chain used in the TSX).
Body panel gaps that are often inconsistent (from some models I've seen) and wider than the TSX.
A DVD-A audio system that is more gimmick than substance (who is going to replace their entire audio collection with this new technology - assuming you can even FIND your favorite titles?). By the time this technology is widely adopted - if it ever is - you'll be ready to unload your TL.
A voice-activated navigation system that often misinterprets commands.
Engine warning lights that come on for no apparent reason.
No folding rear seats.
Considering all the glitches people are reporting, is this car really worth having? Has Acura cut too many corners? Would this car be better if it came from Japan? There's an old saying: You don't get something for nothing, and considering this car's relatively low price-point, have too many compromises been made in its design and manufacture?
Cheap leather seating surfaces that are thinner than the competition, and far more prone to wrinkling.
SOHC engine instead of a DOHC engine.
The use of the older VTEC instead of the newer iVTEC
Timing belt instead of a timing chain (chain used in the TSX).
Body panel gaps that are often inconsistent (from some models I've seen) and wider than the TSX.
A DVD-A audio system that is more gimmick than substance (who is going to replace their entire audio collection with this new technology - assuming you can even FIND your favorite titles?). By the time this technology is widely adopted - if it ever is - you'll be ready to unload your TL.
A voice-activated navigation system that often misinterprets commands.
Engine warning lights that come on for no apparent reason.
No folding rear seats.
Considering all the glitches people are reporting, is this car really worth having? Has Acura cut too many corners? Would this car be better if it came from Japan? There's an old saying: You don't get something for nothing, and considering this car's relatively low price-point, have too many compromises been made in its design and manufacture?
10-30-2003, 10:04 PM
#3
I personally think Acura has done an impeccable job designing and implementing this car (thus far), and I was very pleasantly surprised when the car was released.
As far as the points you raised:
1.) I have no data to say whether the leather is thin or not, but most of the wrinkling has been experienced in high traffic areas, such as the outer lower seat bolster. Some have also reported some stretching in the seat that resolves hours after leaving the car. I've seen many a Infiniti and Lexus with shiny, cracked/wrinkled leather in cars a year old or less (the price of supple leather?). I think the feel and look of the leather in the new TL is a significant improvement for Acura. Had they made a firmer, more-German leather, durability might have been improved, but only at the cost of softness/suppleness.
2.) A SOHC, plain old VTEC engine gets the job done, and quite well, I might add. This engine is quiet, refined, powerful. I'm not sure if the benefits of adding DOHC or iVTEC would have been worth the added cost. Plus, some people like the feel of the plain VTEC kicking in at 4700...
3.) Timing belts are quieter than chains and the one in the TL does not need to be changed until 105,000 miles.
4.) I have not noticed any problems with the body panel gaps, nor do I think they are appreciably larger than those in the TSX. I admit that I don't have a great deal of exposure in this area, though...
5.) DVD-A -- I applaud Acura for introducing a new and exciting concept to the car. True, DVD-A has a very limited music selection and an uncertain future, but I think the TL has emphasized that surround-sound audio can be successfully implemented in a vehicle. While DVD-A may go the way of the Beta tape, I believe in-vehicle surround sound is here to stay...
6.) Acura's navigation system is phenomenal. The one in the new TL is no exception. From my limited experience at dealerships, I was amazed at how well the voice recognition works. We're not quite at the level of Star Trek yet, but Honda/Acura's system has been praised multiple times for its features, ease-of-use, and quick, accurate voice-recognition.
7.) The Engine warning lights? The car is new -- problems are to be expected. I think Acura has dealt with this issue well so far. If this becomes a more prevalent issue, I'm sure Acura will resolve it as they have done with the two cases here...
8.) Folding rear seats. I agree with this one. I don't really need them, but they'd be nice to have...
When I consider the price of this vehicle, I am amazed that Acura cut as few corners as they have. My small gripes are with not having auto up/down on all windows and no rain-sensing wipers, but for the price, I'll gladly give these features up. To many of us, the TL is an extraordinary vehicle at an even more extraordinary price. To me, this is a car with the features, styling and performance of a 9 and the price of a 6.
As far as the points you raised:
1.) I have no data to say whether the leather is thin or not, but most of the wrinkling has been experienced in high traffic areas, such as the outer lower seat bolster. Some have also reported some stretching in the seat that resolves hours after leaving the car. I've seen many a Infiniti and Lexus with shiny, cracked/wrinkled leather in cars a year old or less (the price of supple leather?). I think the feel and look of the leather in the new TL is a significant improvement for Acura. Had they made a firmer, more-German leather, durability might have been improved, but only at the cost of softness/suppleness.
2.) A SOHC, plain old VTEC engine gets the job done, and quite well, I might add. This engine is quiet, refined, powerful. I'm not sure if the benefits of adding DOHC or iVTEC would have been worth the added cost. Plus, some people like the feel of the plain VTEC kicking in at 4700...
3.) Timing belts are quieter than chains and the one in the TL does not need to be changed until 105,000 miles.
4.) I have not noticed any problems with the body panel gaps, nor do I think they are appreciably larger than those in the TSX. I admit that I don't have a great deal of exposure in this area, though...
5.) DVD-A -- I applaud Acura for introducing a new and exciting concept to the car. True, DVD-A has a very limited music selection and an uncertain future, but I think the TL has emphasized that surround-sound audio can be successfully implemented in a vehicle. While DVD-A may go the way of the Beta tape, I believe in-vehicle surround sound is here to stay...
6.) Acura's navigation system is phenomenal. The one in the new TL is no exception. From my limited experience at dealerships, I was amazed at how well the voice recognition works. We're not quite at the level of Star Trek yet, but Honda/Acura's system has been praised multiple times for its features, ease-of-use, and quick, accurate voice-recognition.
7.) The Engine warning lights? The car is new -- problems are to be expected. I think Acura has dealt with this issue well so far. If this becomes a more prevalent issue, I'm sure Acura will resolve it as they have done with the two cases here...
8.) Folding rear seats. I agree with this one. I don't really need them, but they'd be nice to have...
When I consider the price of this vehicle, I am amazed that Acura cut as few corners as they have. My small gripes are with not having auto up/down on all windows and no rain-sensing wipers, but for the price, I'll gladly give these features up. To many of us, the TL is an extraordinary vehicle at an even more extraordinary price. To me, this is a car with the features, styling and performance of a 9 and the price of a 6.
10-30-2003, 10:14 PM
#4
Well, I agree with you on the folding rear seats comment, but that didn't stop me from buying the car.
For those that value what the TL offers it is certainly worth having.
-r
For those that value what the TL offers it is certainly worth having.
-r
10-30-2003, 10:20 PM
#5
Whoa, Princed! Great point-by-point rebuttal. I could only hope to know about a few of the items. I would add however, that there is no loss in having the DVD-A system. It still plays stereo CDs just fine (and quite well). I can't think of anything that I have seen on other luxury cars that I felt the TL NEEDED so I think that they did very well with value at their price point.
10-30-2003, 10:41 PM
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i have a tl build 5000's and:
No gaps anywhere...
no rattles...
who cares if the engine is vtec or Ivtec?? its 270 HP with great mid range torque that gets great fuel economy.... the engine is terrific and it sounds great...
the leather is fine... only nit pickers will notice some slight stretching.... when i get in and out of the car it doesnt even catch my eye..... Even the leather in both my parents lexus's do show some wrinkling (because we have never ever conditioned it.. oops)
the sound system is fine... it plays regular cd's just fine, you dont HAVE to buy a dvd-a (although i have 4 of them)
xm is fine, althought sometimes i feel there are too many channels
About the engine light... it has happened to 2 out of 6000 builds.... .0033 %... woopty doo
The navigation is sweet
im sure most of you out there have more than 1 car, so the TL lacking folding seats isnt gonna kill you.
if you want to gain more performance and sacrifice some luxury , go buy a G35 coupe.... but how many of you 20 ,30, or 40 year old people out there are actually going to need that tiny bit of performance edge??... Go buy a Camaro or Trans Am, because they will both smoke the TL and G35 coupe. the TL isnt the Fastest... but it is fast enough and it includes a bunch of luxury additions.
--2 cents from a 16 year old.
No gaps anywhere...
no rattles...
who cares if the engine is vtec or Ivtec?? its 270 HP with great mid range torque that gets great fuel economy.... the engine is terrific and it sounds great...
the leather is fine... only nit pickers will notice some slight stretching.... when i get in and out of the car it doesnt even catch my eye..... Even the leather in both my parents lexus's do show some wrinkling (because we have never ever conditioned it.. oops)
the sound system is fine... it plays regular cd's just fine, you dont HAVE to buy a dvd-a (although i have 4 of them)
xm is fine, althought sometimes i feel there are too many channels
About the engine light... it has happened to 2 out of 6000 builds.... .0033 %... woopty doo
The navigation is sweet
im sure most of you out there have more than 1 car, so the TL lacking folding seats isnt gonna kill you.
if you want to gain more performance and sacrifice some luxury , go buy a G35 coupe.... but how many of you 20 ,30, or 40 year old people out there are actually going to need that tiny bit of performance edge??... Go buy a Camaro or Trans Am, because they will both smoke the TL and G35 coupe. the TL isnt the Fastest... but it is fast enough and it includes a bunch of luxury additions.
--2 cents from a 16 year old.
10-31-2003, 12:24 AM
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I've nothing against the TL...I'm seriously thinking of one myself.
The truth is, you can pick ANY car apart. My friend and I had a look at the new BMW 5-Series last weekend at the automall (before test-driving a TL) - the interior plastics seemed cheap to me, it had vinyl seats, and when you shut the door with the window down, it rattled! All for $70K (Canadian). The TL interior was better, and when the window was rolled down, guess what? It didn't rattle!
Even the foreign vs. domestic argument can be spurious. At the same automall last weekend, we ran into a guy with a year-old Ford Explorer Sport-Trac. He had small yellow balloons tied all over the vehicle, and had stenciled ÒLEMONÓ all over the windows in yellow letters. I asked him what the deal was, and he told me that it was a POS, had been in for service 37 times to correct one problem (that they couldnÕt seem to correct) and had generally caused him nothing but trouble. He was parking the thing outside the Ford dealership, and as people drove in, telling them to NEVER buy a POS Ford product.
And yet the new Ford F-150 is supposed to be an amazing truck. And Ford's new GT is being hailed on both sides of the Atlantic as a truly fantastic supercar!
I was merely trying to determine if any of the buyers out there were finding that any of the issues I alluded to had been giving them second-thoughts about the TL.
The truth is, you can pick ANY car apart. My friend and I had a look at the new BMW 5-Series last weekend at the automall (before test-driving a TL) - the interior plastics seemed cheap to me, it had vinyl seats, and when you shut the door with the window down, it rattled! All for $70K (Canadian). The TL interior was better, and when the window was rolled down, guess what? It didn't rattle!
Even the foreign vs. domestic argument can be spurious. At the same automall last weekend, we ran into a guy with a year-old Ford Explorer Sport-Trac. He had small yellow balloons tied all over the vehicle, and had stenciled ÒLEMONÓ all over the windows in yellow letters. I asked him what the deal was, and he told me that it was a POS, had been in for service 37 times to correct one problem (that they couldnÕt seem to correct) and had generally caused him nothing but trouble. He was parking the thing outside the Ford dealership, and as people drove in, telling them to NEVER buy a POS Ford product.
And yet the new Ford F-150 is supposed to be an amazing truck. And Ford's new GT is being hailed on both sides of the Atlantic as a truly fantastic supercar!
I was merely trying to determine if any of the buyers out there were finding that any of the issues I alluded to had been giving them second-thoughts about the TL.
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10-31-2003, 05:56 AM
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Some of his complaints are valid, and you do hear them again and again on this forum. In any event, he is going to buy the car anyways. It's still a very good value, and no car is perfect, especially not the first model year. I think Acura will address some of these problems. Maybe the car should have been assembled in Japan, though that is probably too late.
Turbowhat, I thought both the Camaro and Trans Am bit the dust?
Turbowhat, I thought both the Camaro and Trans Am bit the dust?
10-31-2003, 07:36 AM
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There are "lemons" in all makes/models. You are going to hear, on average, more of the problems people are having vs the problems they are not having. And out of all the TLs or any car sold, how many of those owners even post in message boards? So, you can't make a judgement based solely on a few posts. If I did that when I bought my Explorer SporTrac, I wouldn't have bought it. 15,000 miles now, and no problems at all.
10-31-2003, 09:57 AM
#11
an Acura has-been
Dealer told me yesterday that they had a TSX (built in Japan) that when they took the head liner off, it was found that they missed welding two panels together (that was the rattle the owner heard!)
So much for Japan vs USA.
I have a 1600's vin and yes, some of my panels have inconsistant gaps, but, noticable to me only, no one else has seen it! So what, as long as it does not rub, or rattle, who cares.
The dealer did an excellent job of fixing my rattles (and not with foam like most do, but finding the route cause). I have never found a dealer to do as great a job as they did, even with cars that were made for years, I have had rattles that were never found the cause of and had to live with!
Everything is great now after the one service.
So much for Japan vs USA.
I have a 1600's vin and yes, some of my panels have inconsistant gaps, but, noticable to me only, no one else has seen it! So what, as long as it does not rub, or rattle, who cares.
The dealer did an excellent job of fixing my rattles (and not with foam like most do, but finding the route cause). I have never found a dealer to do as great a job as they did, even with cars that were made for years, I have had rattles that were never found the cause of and had to live with!
Everything is great now after the one service.
10-31-2003, 07:45 PM
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Re: The New TL: A Six Dressed Up As A Nine...?
Originally posted by Gundar
Consider:
Cheap leather seating surfaces that are thinner than the competition, and far more prone to wrinkling.
SOHC engine instead of a DOHC engine.
The use of the older VTEC instead of the newer iVTEC
Timing belt instead of a timing chain (chain used in the TSX).
Body panel gaps that are often inconsistent (from some models I've seen) and wider than the TSX.
A DVD-A audio system that is more gimmick than substance (who is going to replace their entire audio collection with this new technology - assuming you can even FIND your favorite titles?). By the time this technology is widely adopted - if it ever is - you'll be ready to unload your TL.
A voice-activated navigation system that often misinterprets commands.
Engine warning lights that come on for no apparent reason.
No folding rear seats.
Considering all the glitches people are reporting, is this car really worth having? Has Acura cut too many corners? Would this car be better if it came from Japan? There's an old saying: You don't get something for nothing, and considering this car's relatively low price-point, have too many compromises been made in its design and manufacture?
Consider:
Cheap leather seating surfaces that are thinner than the competition, and far more prone to wrinkling.
SOHC engine instead of a DOHC engine.
The use of the older VTEC instead of the newer iVTEC
Timing belt instead of a timing chain (chain used in the TSX).
Body panel gaps that are often inconsistent (from some models I've seen) and wider than the TSX.
A DVD-A audio system that is more gimmick than substance (who is going to replace their entire audio collection with this new technology - assuming you can even FIND your favorite titles?). By the time this technology is widely adopted - if it ever is - you'll be ready to unload your TL.
A voice-activated navigation system that often misinterprets commands.
Engine warning lights that come on for no apparent reason.
No folding rear seats.
Considering all the glitches people are reporting, is this car really worth having? Has Acura cut too many corners? Would this car be better if it came from Japan? There's an old saying: You don't get something for nothing, and considering this car's relatively low price-point, have too many compromises been made in its design and manufacture?
B) SOHC is fine for this car as it does not need to rev to 8000 rpms. Honda makes quite capable SOHC engines. There are plenty of DOHC engines that are complete dogs. (See your local Dodge dealer for details).
Also, a DOHC V6 would require a completely different design for the J - series and the costs would outweigh whatever gains.
C) Lack of i-VTEC is not an issue with this car, it has plenty of go for 99% of the potential buyers.
D) Lack of timing chain. I agree on that, but again, this would require a redesign of the J series motor. Wait until the next engine design (M block?)
E) I have not seen any inconsistancies myself but I'm sure they exist. This is typical of a first year model year. Wait one year if this of concern.
F) DVD-A could be the mainstream future for high-end sound systems, Acura took a gamble on this, give them credit for that.
G) The Navi was developed by IBM I believe, blame them for their voice recognition software. One thing I have noticed, people do not pronounce words properly, they tend to mumble or have some strange accents. Half the time I can't understand what they are saying either.
H) Warning lights, hmm.. I'll have to look into this one.
I) Lack of folding rear seats. I agree on this one, but I believe it would take a significant redesign, don't quote me though.
J) Would this car be better if it came from Japan? I'm not sure. It is designed and made in the US for the US/Canada. As of now, it is only available in the 50 states and the 51st
(Before I get flamed, I have dual citizenship, so I can say that)
11-01-2003, 11:01 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gundar
[B]I've nothing against the TL...I'm seriously thinking of one myself.
The truth is, you can pick ANY car apart. My friend and I had a look at the new BMW 5-Series last weekend at the automall (before test-driving a TL) - the interior plastics seemed cheap to me, it had vinyl seats, and when you shut the door with the window down, it rattled! All for $70K (Canadian). The TL interior was better, and when the window was rolled down, guess what? It didn't rattle!
FYI - The front door excessively rattled when the window was down on a TL that I recently examined. Hopefully a pad was out of adjustment. When the window was up the door was as tight as a drum and made a satisfying solid thump when shut.
[B]I've nothing against the TL...I'm seriously thinking of one myself.
The truth is, you can pick ANY car apart. My friend and I had a look at the new BMW 5-Series last weekend at the automall (before test-driving a TL) - the interior plastics seemed cheap to me, it had vinyl seats, and when you shut the door with the window down, it rattled! All for $70K (Canadian). The TL interior was better, and when the window was rolled down, guess what? It didn't rattle!
FYI - The front door excessively rattled when the window was down on a TL that I recently examined. Hopefully a pad was out of adjustment. When the window was up the door was as tight as a drum and made a satisfying solid thump when shut.
11-02-2003, 02:05 AM
#16
i think they did a good job for the 04 TL... too many people want this to change and that to change we should just be greatful that we can have a chance to have a car like this when other countries can'teven afford to have these cars....
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