metal shavings on trans bolt
11-09-2007, 02:37 PM
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metal shavings on trans bolt
Just changed my trans fluid in the 04 tl with 55k and auto trans and found lots of metal on the bolt. I understand that theres gonna be some wear from break in and driving but how much metal is too much? My fluid was really dark and there was lots of sludge on the bolt as well. Bolt had about a 1/2 inch of sludge hanging on it and the metal shavings were rather large. Hands looked like I had taken a bath in anti-seize, really silver.
Anyone else had this and would you be worried enough to trade it in? We had the transmission vibes for around 20k that is known to happen on this trans and the dealer wouldnt fix it. Ended up with the lemon law route unfortunately. Couldnt believe they wouldn't own up to a known issue.
I really think the engine vibes chewed up the gears.
Thoughts?
Anyone else had this and would you be worried enough to trade it in? We had the transmission vibes for around 20k that is known to happen on this trans and the dealer wouldnt fix it. Ended up with the lemon law route unfortunately. Couldnt believe they wouldn't own up to a known issue.
I really think the engine vibes chewed up the gears.
Thoughts?
11-09-2007, 02:49 PM
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first change. I'm doing the drain and fill technique. Called the dealer and they wanted 225 and said i did not need a flush until 100k. For whatever reason honda thinks fluid lasts 100k? thats crazy. I figured 55k was too long by 25k!
11-09-2007, 03:03 PM
#4
WDP Director of R & D
I changed my 04 trans fluid at about 28K miles. Mine didn't have much for filings at that time. Does that mean you have a problem? NO. I have pulled the pan on many an automatic to find enormous amounts of shavings/sludge as you called it. In the big scheme of things the magnet is definitely doing its job.
Unless the transmission is slipping and/or whining, I wouldn't worry at this point. 55K is a few miles thus the trans is bound to have some wear particles etc.. I would bet a large sum that if/when you drain it 20 or so thousand miles down the road, you won't hardly have any shavings on the magnet.
First time always looks bad. Being at 55K just made it look that much worse.
Unless the transmission is slipping and/or whining, I wouldn't worry at this point. 55K is a few miles thus the trans is bound to have some wear particles etc.. I would bet a large sum that if/when you drain it 20 or so thousand miles down the road, you won't hardly have any shavings on the magnet.
First time always looks bad. Being at 55K just made it look that much worse.
11-09-2007, 03:32 PM
#5
Lovin' My TL-S
Yeeouch
Yea, your trans is probably shot! The dark fluid is a bad sign. Does it have a smell to it? Burnt? I don't think you should have THAT much sludge in the transmission.
I had the trans go out in my '04 Grand Prix GTP and it started eating the plates and bands - the fluid smelled like a tractor trailer that's been dragging it's brakes down a hill.
It had thrown a blade on the torque converter, shredded it up and circulated the particles of metal all throughout the transmission. A few miles later all the passages were so clogged it couldn't shift gears. All the while the clutch pack and bands were slipping overheating the fluid. It rolled to a stop after I realized I was hitting the rev limiter and wasn't going anywhere. Had to push it off the road. That's when I dumped that POS and got my TL! About a month ago in fact...
Yea, your trans is probably shot! The dark fluid is a bad sign. Does it have a smell to it? Burnt? I don't think you should have THAT much sludge in the transmission.
I had the trans go out in my '04 Grand Prix GTP and it started eating the plates and bands - the fluid smelled like a tractor trailer that's been dragging it's brakes down a hill.
It had thrown a blade on the torque converter, shredded it up and circulated the particles of metal all throughout the transmission. A few miles later all the passages were so clogged it couldn't shift gears. All the while the clutch pack and bands were slipping overheating the fluid. It rolled to a stop after I realized I was hitting the rev limiter and wasn't going anywhere. Had to push it off the road. That's when I dumped that POS and got my TL! About a month ago in fact...
11-09-2007, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tsill
first change. I'm doing the drain and fill technique. Called the dealer and they wanted 225 and said i did not need a flush until 100k. For whatever reason honda thinks fluid lasts 100k? thats crazy. I figured 55k was too long by 25k!
they are probably right about the flush part, but not the fluid change. had mine done about 4k. just do the flush & fill about 2-3 times. i think you should be fine.
11-09-2007, 04:00 PM
#7
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by PacketStorm
Yeeouch
Yea, your trans is probably shot! The dark fluid is a bad sign. Does it have a smell to it? Burnt? I don't think you should have THAT much sludge in the transmission.
Yea, your trans is probably shot! The dark fluid is a bad sign. Does it have a smell to it? Burnt? I don't think you should have THAT much sludge in the transmission.
As I mentioned, sludge/filings on the magnet are not a sign of pending transmission doom... At 55K, if the trans was eating itself IE-either the bands or gears etc., you would be hearing and feeling it.
Now, if you read the Acura Tech bulletins you will be blessed with the knowledge that the Acura/Honda Z1 fluid will "darken" - "very quickly", and this is by no means ANY indication that the transmission is having issues.
Now with GM fluid/transmissions, if the fluid turns dark brown and it smells like death, yes,, you have had some trans slipping issues and may be looking at trans repairs.
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11-09-2007, 06:07 PM
#8
Lovin' My TL-S
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
Why comments like this are tossed around without technical expertise always gets under my skin...
I'm not sure what transmissions you've been into but sludge is NOT good. You're telling me that sludge floating around going into valve spools, small passageways and behind pistons is not going to cause problems? Not going to eventually clog the filter screen?? The aluminum shavings aren't going to damage seals?
Backing up my original statement:
Transmission Sludge
Transmissions operate under widely adverse conditions and expose the transmission fluid to wide swings in temperature. As Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) ages, it forms sludge, which reduces fluid circulation and transmission cooling. Abrasive metal particles generated from aged ATF will ruin seals and cause irreversible damage to internal transmission components. A customer may eventually experience erratic shifting, excessive vibration or noise, or even transmission failure.
From Here - 5th Item - A FOREIGN car service center (Volvo, BMW, Porsche....)
Transmissions operate under widely adverse conditions and expose the transmission fluid to wide swings in temperature. As Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) ages, it forms sludge, which reduces fluid circulation and transmission cooling. Abrasive metal particles generated from aged ATF will ruin seals and cause irreversible damage to internal transmission components. A customer may eventually experience erratic shifting, excessive vibration or noise, or even transmission failure.
From Here - 5th Item - A FOREIGN car service center (Volvo, BMW, Porsche....)
Transmission Sludge-
Transmissions operate under severe conditions that constantly change, and are exposed to swings of temperature in excess of four hundred degrees. As automatic transmission fluid (ATF) overheats and ages, it loses viscosity and forms sludge, gunks up circulation and plays hell with transmission cooling. Abrasive metals whipped through the engine by aged transmission fluid ruins seals and damages engine components. Eventually, the transmission will shift erratically, vibrate and chatter, and then lock up.
From Here - Item 5
Transmissions operate under severe conditions that constantly change, and are exposed to swings of temperature in excess of four hundred degrees. As automatic transmission fluid (ATF) overheats and ages, it loses viscosity and forms sludge, gunks up circulation and plays hell with transmission cooling. Abrasive metals whipped through the engine by aged transmission fluid ruins seals and damages engine components. Eventually, the transmission will shift erratically, vibrate and chatter, and then lock up.
From Here - Item 5
However, auto manufacturers have gradually reduced the amount of zinc in their transmission fluids. Today many use absolutely none. As in zero! This change is the result of testing zinc-based Commercial Three Bayducts in newer transmissions. The tests have shown an increase in transmission sludge buildup. Sludge and heat are a transmission’s archenemies. Sludge causes more heat buildup, which in-turn reduces transmission life.
From Here - 7th Paragraph Down
From Here - 7th Paragraph Down
Oil Pan Contents
The simplest, and possibly the most revealing, troubleshooting step is a visual inspection of the contents of your transmission's oil pan.
...The pan should contain nothing but fluid and a very small amount of metal specks - the end product of normal bushing and thrust bearing wear. But if your transmission has been slipping...clues found in the pan can confirm that the unit needs a complete rebuild. ...Some transmissions generate more metal than others. Regardless, the general rule of thumb is that more than a tablespoonful of metal in the pan means rebuild...
Varnish and Sludge
Check for varnish and sludge in the pan too. If you find even the thinnest layer of chocolate pudding-like-sludge, chances are the clutch frictions and bands are slipping, worn and glazed....If you find sludge that resembles aluminum paint, and the converter road test...indicates possible converter failure, you've got your confirmation.
Frome Here - Middle Column 2/3's of the way down - A TRANSMISSION GUIDE
The simplest, and possibly the most revealing, troubleshooting step is a visual inspection of the contents of your transmission's oil pan.
...The pan should contain nothing but fluid and a very small amount of metal specks - the end product of normal bushing and thrust bearing wear. But if your transmission has been slipping...clues found in the pan can confirm that the unit needs a complete rebuild. ...Some transmissions generate more metal than others. Regardless, the general rule of thumb is that more than a tablespoonful of metal in the pan means rebuild...
Varnish and Sludge
Check for varnish and sludge in the pan too. If you find even the thinnest layer of chocolate pudding-like-sludge, chances are the clutch frictions and bands are slipping, worn and glazed....If you find sludge that resembles aluminum paint, and the converter road test...indicates possible converter failure, you've got your confirmation.
Frome Here - Middle Column 2/3's of the way down - A TRANSMISSION GUIDE
But back to tsill's question:
I hope everything is ok with your trans. Not trying to spread doom and gloom - just speaking from VERY recent experience. You know what the correct answer to your question is? Take the car to a dealer or a transmission shop and let them decide. Did you toss the fluid and sludge out? If you didn't, take it with you, tell them what you saw and let them see the gunk. Maybe for a minimum amount of money they will be willing to drop the pan and take a look. There's likely plenty more sh*t coating the pan. You'll need a transmission refill, but if there was that much crap in there, running the fresh fluid you just put back in there for a while and then another change is probably a good idea - give it a good flush.
Otherwise I don't think anyone can give you an adequate answer across an Internet forum. Maybe have a UOA done on the oil to find out what materials are in there?
Good luck dude...
11-09-2007, 06:21 PM
#9
Lovin' My TL-S
Oh yeah, I almost forgot - as far as this:
That may be correct. And we're not all blessed with the knowledge from the Acura Tech Bulletins. But sludge is NOT good. Also tsill said,"...hands looked like I had taken a bath in anti-seize, really silver." I would be just as concerned as him if I had seen that come out of my transmission. Aluminum ground so fine that it looked like anti-sieze?
Come on...
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
Now, if you read the Acura Tech bulletins you will be blessed with the knowledge that the Acura/Honda Z1 fluid will "darken" - "very quickly", and this is by no means ANY indication that the transmission is having issues.
Now with GM fluid/transmissions, if the fluid turns dark brown and it smells like death, yes,, you have had some trans slipping issues and may be looking at trans repairs.
Now with GM fluid/transmissions, if the fluid turns dark brown and it smells like death, yes,, you have had some trans slipping issues and may be looking at trans repairs.
Come on...
11-09-2007, 06:26 PM
#10
Did you do the 3x3 drain and fill or just once?
The dealers term _flush_ is the 3x3 we do per the book
The best thing to do is buy 2 more qts of HONDA atf
go to www.blackstone-labs.com
http://blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html
for a freee sample taking kit
As you drain some oil, you catch 4 oz in a bottle, seal it up and send
to them with 23$
They do a Mass Spectograph testing and give a printout of each element-metal-whatever- is in the fluid and their expert analysis of whats going on.
Let them know you are concerned and they will make sure to look for indication of wear
If gears are sheding metal- they will know what type of metal!
They can test any type fluid too- engine- power steering- trans etc
Knowledge is power!!
The dealers term _flush_ is the 3x3 we do per the book
The best thing to do is buy 2 more qts of HONDA atf
go to www.blackstone-labs.com
http://blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html
for a freee sample taking kit
As you drain some oil, you catch 4 oz in a bottle, seal it up and send
to them with 23$
They do a Mass Spectograph testing and give a printout of each element-metal-whatever- is in the fluid and their expert analysis of whats going on.
Let them know you are concerned and they will make sure to look for indication of wear
If gears are sheding metal- they will know what type of metal!
They can test any type fluid too- engine- power steering- trans etc
Knowledge is power!!
11-09-2007, 06:27 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by PacketStorm
And you judge my technical expertise by my quick post? Jeeez, and I thought this was a cool place to hang out. A little abrasive aren't we?
I'm not sure what transmissions you've been into but sludge is NOT good. You're telling me that sludge floating around going into valve spools, small passageways and behind pistons is not going to cause problems? Not going to eventually clog the filter screen?? The aluminum shavings aren't going to damage seals?
I'm not sure what transmissions you've been into but sludge is NOT good. You're telling me that sludge floating around going into valve spools, small passageways and behind pistons is not going to cause problems? Not going to eventually clog the filter screen?? The aluminum shavings aren't going to damage seals?
Dude u'll be fine, like the guys mentioned earlier, fluid will darken, tranny is breakin in and its ur first change in 55K. sludge builds up in any car, any fluid, and so will metal shards thats why we have filters and magnets in our tranny's now a days. as long as u dont feel it chances are ur tranny is FINE
11-09-2007, 06:32 PM
#12
Lovin' My TL-S
Originally Posted by 06 Acura TL
i didnt know tranny had pistons..haha
11-09-2007, 06:34 PM
#13
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by PacketStorm
And you judge my technical expertise by my quick post? Jeeez, and I thought this was a cool place to hang out. A little abrasive aren't we?
Now, re-read his initial post. The filings and "sludge" he speaks of are on the drain plug magnet. IE its very small particles of metal - not aluminum or "floating sludge etc.. What he described is very normal given his mileage. Ive been into literally hundreds of transmissions and differentials that result in the same - layman's term - "magnet full of stuff". Most will look like a small "fir ball" when removed...
Your above info MAY apply if that's what he had but all he has is a magnet that is doing its job. Nothing that would spell trans failure. The dark color of the fluid is normal as well.
I just stick to the facts and what I know.
Don't take it so personal
Cheers
11-09-2007, 07:07 PM
#15
Lovin' My TL-S
[QUOTE=KJSmitty]
Not taking it personal. The "tossed around without technical expertise" and "always gets under my skin" comments seemed a little strong though.
What concerned me most about tsill's post was the (apparently) large amount of silver all over his hands. I can understand a ball of steel shards attached to the magnet, like you said, that's it's job.
But whatever, have a good one...
Originally Posted by PacketStorm
Don't take it so personal
Cheers
Cheers
What concerned me most about tsill's post was the (apparently) large amount of silver all over his hands. I can understand a ball of steel shards attached to the magnet, like you said, that's it's job.
But whatever, have a good one...
11-09-2007, 09:23 PM
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Hey thanks all for the interest in the trans. Especially all the background digging from KJSmitty and Packet Storm.
Obviously with acura 2gens we all have something to fear. Hopefully we don't all get the same issues with the 3 gens. I've changed plenty of trans fluid in my day and normally wouldn't think 2x about the metal, but the sludge was too much to ignore. Just drain/filled it 2x tonite and will do another tomorrow. Being late, dark, and tired I decided to fill the damn thing with a quart before i realized i hadn't put the drain plug in! Didn't get to work on it before the sun went down and when I went to clean out the garage in the afternoon my wife says, "it's a nice day just do it outside." Changing trans fluid in the dark sucks. This is the same women that didn't want the free 6sp manual, 4 piston brembos and better tires! Gottal love her though. Fortunately i got the first one done in the light and could see what was going on. The second drain came out a nice red color. Especially after the "extra quart" of fluid. Will do the third tomorrow and post what i find.
Thanks again.
Obviously with acura 2gens we all have something to fear. Hopefully we don't all get the same issues with the 3 gens. I've changed plenty of trans fluid in my day and normally wouldn't think 2x about the metal, but the sludge was too much to ignore. Just drain/filled it 2x tonite and will do another tomorrow. Being late, dark, and tired I decided to fill the damn thing with a quart before i realized i hadn't put the drain plug in! Didn't get to work on it before the sun went down and when I went to clean out the garage in the afternoon my wife says, "it's a nice day just do it outside." Changing trans fluid in the dark sucks. This is the same women that didn't want the free 6sp manual, 4 piston brembos and better tires! Gottal love her though. Fortunately i got the first one done in the light and could see what was going on. The second drain came out a nice red color. Especially after the "extra quart" of fluid. Will do the third tomorrow and post what i find.
Thanks again.
11-09-2007, 10:34 PM
#17
Moderator
The sludge and metal shavings on the magnet are normal, as is the dark fluid. My buddy is an Acura master tech at a dealership and he has drained hundreds of these units and they all have a ton of sludge on the magnet and have dark fluid.
As a side note, we have one guy with 236k on his '03 Accord 5AT on the ORIGINAL transmission. He changed the transmission fluid every 50k (or so). First few times was with Z1, last few has been with Maxlife ATF. And yes, his fluid looks dark.
As a side note, we have one guy with 236k on his '03 Accord 5AT on the ORIGINAL transmission. He changed the transmission fluid every 50k (or so). First few times was with Z1, last few has been with Maxlife ATF. And yes, his fluid looks dark.
11-10-2007, 10:31 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
The sludge and metal shavings on the magnet are normal, as is the dark fluid. My buddy is an Acura master tech at a dealership and he has drained hundreds of these units and they all have a ton of sludge on the magnet and have dark fluid.
As a side note, we have one guy with 236k on his '03 Accord 5AT on the ORIGINAL transmission. He changed the transmission fluid every 50k (or so). First few times was with Z1, last few has been with Maxlife ATF. And yes, his fluid looks dark.
As a side note, we have one guy with 236k on his '03 Accord 5AT on the ORIGINAL transmission. He changed the transmission fluid every 50k (or so). First few times was with Z1, last few has been with Maxlife ATF. And yes, his fluid looks dark.
Hopefully we all get at least 236k!
11-10-2007, 03:21 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by tsill
Normal doesn't always mean good in my opinion. What happens when we all get free trannies like the 2gen becuase these normal transmissions become defective?
Hopefully we all get at least 236k!
Hopefully we all get at least 236k!
Regardless, a free transmission sounds great to me!
11-10-2007, 06:15 PM
#20
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by tsill
Normal doesn't always mean good in my opinion. What happens when we all get free trannies like the 2gen becuase these normal transmissions become defective?
Hopefully we all get at least 236k!
Hopefully we all get at least 236k!
11-10-2007, 08:55 PM
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drained for the third time and filled it up. shifting is so much smoother it's a noticable difference. does anyone have a spec as to what the difference fin volume from the bottom to top hole on the dipstick volume would be? That would be a good item to know. mine was around 700 ml... there is 946ml in a quart if i remember the bottle label correctly. i imagine it would depend on the temperature of the engine and trans though.
thanks for all the help along the way. will hope for 150k!
thanks for all the help along the way. will hope for 150k!
11-10-2007, 09:06 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by tsill
drained for the third time and filled it up. shifting is so much smoother it's a noticable difference. does anyone have a spec as to what the difference fin volume from the bottom to top hole on the dipstick volume would be? That would be a good item to know. mine was around 700 ml... there is 946ml in a quart if i remember the bottle label correctly. i imagine it would depend on the temperature of the engine and trans though.
thanks for all the help along the way. will hope for 150k!
thanks for all the help along the way. will hope for 150k!
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