anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I'm not really sure where you're getting these numbers but C&D was only able to get a 14.4 @ 98 from the base 6 spd. 3/10 is a substantial difference. And I've seen listings for the Type S 6 MT at 5.5 to 60 which is again well ahead of the 5.7-6.0 times for the base 6MT. I can't say I've ever seen any times on the Type S auto. Bottom line is that the S is kind of disappointing really and I'd expect a more drastic difference between the two models.

SouthernBoy

In May '04, Car and Driver managed a 0-60 run in 5.6 seconds and a quarter mile at 14.3 seconds at 99 MPH with an A-Spec 6MT. This remains the best times I have seen reported for a non-Type S 3G TL.

Ramrodthrusterpuppy

Sorry...totally disagree there. That was true 10 - 15 years ago, but not today. Why do F1 cars use paddle shifting with an electronically controlled transmission? Because it shifts faster than any human possibly can! Ferrari, Porsche and other high performance marques use automatics...yes, some use vastly different technology (i.e. DSG) but operationally, they are still an auto....no manual clutch operation.

The purists argue the contrary but again, an electronically operated performance oriented transmission will always shift quicker than you, I or Michael Schumacher. I own and love my 6MT...but to hack on the auto Type S because it's slower by a couple of tenths....please.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sorry but Michael Schumacher racing paddle shifters are connected to SMG's (Sequential Mechanical Transmissions) generally with twin plate clutches not automatics transmissions with torque converters & planetary gears engaged by hydraulic pressure.

A few 10's of a second is a about 1 1/2 at car lengths 0-60 & 3 car lengths at the end of the quarter mile

Ramrodthrusterpuppy

Understood, but not my point. SMGs, DSGs and autos operate the same way from a driver input perspective....no manual clutch operation.

Additionally, contrary to what we may want to think...TLs are not track cars. And in 99% of driving for 99% of us, 2/10s of a second doesn't mean that much.

darksom1

^ See that's just it...you have to get TECHNICAL to describe why they belong in the same sentence. While I am talking about the fun of driving one versus the other, you are talking about what you have to do in each different one to achieve the same goal. If you think that shifting wth your thumbs is better than, not FASTER than, better as in more FUN, than clutching and going thru the range of motion of shifting gears with your right hand, then ok...but I could care less if an auto shifts from 1-2 seconds faster than a manual...the ACT of doing it is not more fun in my opinion.

BEAR-AvHistory

That's like saying all brakes - mechanical, hydraulic, electric, drum, disc/drum, disc & electric operate the same from the drivers perspective. You just push the pedal.

As for the 2/10's its used every night heading north in Raleigh, NC at the Six Forks Road & I-540 traffic light.

Six Forks goes from 2 lanes in each direction to one lane each way at this traffic light. The right (curb) lane goes away a few hundred yards past the light. Since the traffic backs up 20-30 cars in the left lane wise guys with BMW 330's, TL 6 speeds, EVO's, Merc 550's, Vettes, Mustang GT's etc slip up past the backlog up to the light in the right hand lane.

Of course when the light turns green the good citizens in the left lane, many of whom have the exact same cars, who politely waited their turn through one or two cycles, at the light don't want to let you in when you jump the line. Makes for an interesting 5 seconds or so before dinner.

2/10's of a second can be the difference that lets you move into the left lane with no problem or sitting in the right one getting the finger till all the cars go by.

This is common enough at this light that the cops hide in the gas station where the lanes come together a few time a month to whack the guys who have busted the 55mph (45mph+10) speed limit.

BukvaMan

The TL's clutch sucks........I owned a 2004 6speed now i have a 2005 TL AT and althoe i miss it sometimes i love this one many times more then i used to hate the 6speed. The clutch had no feel and u couldnt shift it fast at all .........compared to an audi or bmw its nothing alike so unless im ready to buy an audi im not gonna go with a stick. and by the way i live in NYC area so traffic is another one

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

Comptech short shifter takes care of that, and if it's still to long a throws get a Team Voodoo countersunk knob.

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

No rev limiter on downshifts? Now that's funny.

darksom1

+1 on the CT SS, but I went with the Skunk2 shiftknob!

BEAR-AvHistory

The BMW has a much better clutch action for normal driving & when you need to be very smooth its easier to use. The TL's clutch needs more touch then the BMW to drive smoothly, but once you are used to it, it works fine. I would agree however that people who cannot master smooth shifts with it should not bother with having one.

The TL's gearbox has a slightly better feel to it when running through the gears especially going down then the BMW.

The ideal deal would be the BMW clutch & TL gearbox mounting the BMW shifter.

That being said, I drive both (2004 330Ci 6spd - 2006 TL 6spd) on any given day & there is no measurable difference in shifting speed when accelerating hard.

Both launch very quickly & shift fast enough in the lower gears 1/2 2/3 to chirp the tires when you shift.

6SpdTerror

6MT FTMFW!! I just ordered my 08 type-s in manual also. Cant wait for that one!

calgary2800

Aint that the truth,you are in for a treat. I dream of that car everyday.

jeff442

I own an 02' 6MT and love it. I have a very limited history of owning other cars with MT's but I have owned a TSX. The 6MT in this car is often regarded as being one of the best ever. I do have to say that (apart from the times when the temperature is below 40 degrees) the clutch/shift action in the TL is right on par with the TSX. The only downside is that it was very difficult to find a black on black 6MT with Nav (though it was worth the wait!).

S PAW 1

Why is it funny?
There are reports that come up on this forum about once a month whereas someone has downshifted inadveretently into 2nd, where they thought they were going into fourth, and bent the valves. The ECU does not limit the revs on a downshift, just an upshift.
It wasn't my own experience, but it is factual.
This creates a risk that can lower resale value that I don't believe Acura will keep around much longer. After all, the trend is to protect us from ourselves

SheSpawn

I think the simple truth lies in the fact that this debate will wage on forever, even after they make an automatic that can shift faster and better than any human and put it in every car made. The reality is you either want the manual or you don't and you can come up wtih 100 reasons on either side why you would or wouldn't. Each person has to decide what best fits their situation and desires, AT or MT is a decision only the driver themselves can make.

Might I suggest renting one of each to make up your mind before purchase... of course that may be difficult or make too much sense... either way...

darksom1

I rented a manual Celica before...I doubt very seriously if it is possible to rent a TL (unless loaner), let alone a manual one. As far as types of drivers when it comes to the two trannys, I guess you are either a driver enthusiast (MT) or a commuter (AT).

BEAR-AvHistory

Because you can't possibly eliminate over-rev on a mechanical gear box downshift in any car when the wrong gear is chosen.

The engine is mechanically connected to the driving wheels & they will force the engine into over-rev no matter what or the ECU you do.

Manual Transmission

I disagree with your claim even more seriously.

I can't believe you are comparing a Fomula 1 race car tranny to your TYPE-S 5AT. That is the most ridiculous comment I have heard in my 31 years of life. How can you even dare say that. Holly molly..... I bet ya the cost of the pedal shifter on the F1 costs about half the price of your Acura TL TYPE-S! Yes of course the pedal shifter on the TL-S engages quickly WHILE engaging, but there is still huge amount of lag in response time. It's a joke compare to the F1's sequential gear box.

.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

ahahaha formula 1 paddle shiter not equal to type s paddle shifters...
the type s paddle shifters are SO LAME

juruki

iTrader: (2)

C&D test of the 07 TL-S 6MT
0-60 5.5 sec
1/4 Mile 14.1 @ 101

Ramrodthrusterpuppy

*sigh*...read my post again in context to the preceeding post and maybe you'll figure it out....then again, maybe not....whatever.
I also don't have a 5AT, I have a 6MT, but again that just goes to show that you really didn't understand what I had stated.

No matter...to the OP, test drive both and pick what you like best, because ultimately it's your car and you have to live with it. Both the MT and AT Type S are great cars.

S PAW 1

Sure you can. You integrate a lockout to prevent the transmission from being engaged in that lower gear above a certain RPM.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.

darksom1

You are disagreeing for all the wrong reasons. I am not comparing the shifting motion or operation in a 6MT TL-P to ALL paddle shifters, especially the ones you mentioned just the Type S! Nor am I saying that ALL paddle shifters can't take curves as aggressively, or more aggressively than the 6MT TL-P. What I am saying, however, is that to shift gears using the paddles in a Type-S during spirited driving is NOT more fun than doing it in a 6MT TL-P or TL-S. Understand now? If you do, then do you agree or disagree on that?

BEAR-AvHistory

Computer software, electrical or hydraulic servos, additional mechanical parts in the gear box. You can do just about anything if you spend enough money, but a $10 or 15K gearbox in a $30K street car would seem a bit over the top.

pkarandi

I guess the bottom line for the OP is that it is simply a personal decision, and asking us what we think will only make your decision harder, not easier.

My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.

But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...

My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!

Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?

S PAW 1

^
The MT's of the future will be limited to those "purist" sports cars, of which the TL(S) is not. I doubt if the MT in the S2000 will disappear in the not to distant future, but in the TL-S, I wouldn't be surprised to not see an MT option offered on the '09 4G.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

You do relieze debating manual vs auto is the same as the WDP vs NBP. This war is never going to end EVER.

SouthernBoy

Very simply put. If the TL had not been available in '04 when I got mine, I most likely be driving a CTS-V. I don't buy automatics for my own personal driving machines and I am not about to start any time soon.. Lord willing.

And my friend, you are certainly not "an old dog refusing to learn a new trick" as there is nothing tricky about driving an automatic. Like me and countless others, you prefer to shift for yourself.

ARX-01b

iTrader: (1)

They can't even do that in million dollar race cars.

Even the best professionals have blown up their engine with a missed shift

HiTEC

One big thing I've noticed buying my left several cars with manual transmission is that the resale value sucks when you go to sell it. It hasn't stopped me from buying manual, but it has been tough to sell my last few cars by owner even though they've been low miles and in mint condition. It takes the right buyer than wants a manual car to come along.

SouthernBoy

This is all dictated by the market in which you live. I would imagine that a manual TL is not about to fetch as much at sell time in New York as it would down here in my neck of the woods. This is the most wealthy and affluent area in the country so it's quite common to run across manual Bimmers, G35s, 350Zs, the "fun" pocket rocket sedans, and TLs. I expect a manual TL might even go for more in a private sale here.

I bought my manual '04 in July '04. At that time, the dealer (Pohanka) was averaging 27% of their TL inventory in manuals. Over the next year, I tracked this and it remained between 22 and 25%.

So you market, which encompasses geographical and demographic factors, is the sole largest controlling entity when it comes time to let your car go.

S PAW 1

Doesn't the Corvette have a similar system, only in reverse?
It "locks out" 2nd and 3rd gear when the ECU detects smaller throttle openings/RPM's. It will take you directly from 1st to 4th, whether you want it to or not. It is doubtful that it is a very expensive feature.

bpham

I have a manual and its so much more fun to drive than the automatic. Get the short shifter too, big big big difference.

Legend2TL

Good writeup to a seemingly endless debate. The main point to me (and many others in this thread) is the driving experience and fun of a manual transmission. Heck, I even semi-enjoyed driving a manual transmission on a 24' UHaul moving I reneted in the mid-90's. The bottom line is for many drivers you are in more control of the powertrain with a manual over a automatic or even a SMG-type gearbox.

For those wondering about the demise of the manual, I think that is overblown. Although Honda did drop the 6MT from the base TL, they offer a 6MT for the Accord V6 coupe. A friend is looking at getting a Pontiac G8 GTP and a 6MT is available for it, and yes it's a 4 door sports sedan. One of bigger detriments to MT is emmisions, it's can be more difficult to get EPA emissions cetification since it's more difficult with a manual (although DBW throttle and ECU do make it happen).

A friend is BMW service tech in the Baltimore area and drives all the latest BMW's. He drives a 2G 735 with a 5MT, even though he has driven the latest SMG's in the latest M3/M5/M6 he still prefers the 6MT in those models over the SMG. BMW marketing also agrees since originally the M5 was not available with a manual, only the SMG. They later brought back a true clutch and MT offering.

So if you think that all sedans are family cars and should only come with AT, great that's your opinion. Alot of other drivers (probably those here with 6MT's) know you can have alot of driving fun with four door sedan with a well balanced suspension, powerful V6, and a MT.

JetJock

I've had my 6MT since '04 and I love it when I'm in the mood for spirited driving. Sometimes traffic makes me wish I had the automatic but the Brembos, LSD, and suspension keeps me happy with my choice. Get the 6MT...it's pure fun to drive.

Never Summer

Comparing the automatic transmission in the Acura TL to the "automatic" in an F1 car, DSG, or SMG, is like comparing corn to cheese, sure they are both yellow, but that is where the similarities end. Honestly unless you have the choice at a dual clutch gearbox, get a MT.

6SpdTerror

Even if i had the choice of a DSG type gearbox.....i would still want a traditional manual gearbox. Guess u can call me old school (im only 28!) but i like the involvment of a tru manual tranny.

SouthernBoy

I had heard that the initial of the Pontiac G8 will only be made with an automatic. Has that changed? I sure hope so because that car looks like it could be a winner.