We often hear that cars that are made in Japan are better than the ones in the US. I also know there are many of you who disagree with that statement. I would like to know, for those who think "made in Japan" cars are better, why they are so. I personally do think they are better as well, and i will state my reasons later.

 

look at a legend and a 2nd gen tl. i guarantee the 2nd gen tl had more problems and has more rattles

 

i think it might be better sometimes due to work ethics. in the US people do not care about their jobs as much as people do in japan. especially in a assembly line facility where people do repetitive work. you get bored of the job and start to hate it. In japan the people like their job more. even tho its the same job they feel inclusive in the company and are usually loyal to it. people in the US worry about vacation and how to become more lazy. just look at the statistics, the US is the most fattest nation in the world. 30% of the population is overweight. it is true that the US is one of the richest nations in the world but still not an excuse for everyone to be overweight. if you visit a plant in japan and then one in the US, you will see the difference in work eithics.

 

I think it's a myth that the average Japanese assembly line worker is any better or worse than the average American.

The reason Japanese cars became vastly more reliable than American cars in the 70s and 80s had nothing to do with the laborers. It had everything to do with management, vision, and corporate culture.

In the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, an engineer named Dr. W. Edwards Deming began preaching statistical quality control. His theories were extremely well-regarded and he became famous in the engineering world. Many American companies followed his advice and grew stronger despite slowly increasing foreign competition.

Noticeably absent from the list were the American auto manufacturers, who ignored Deming completely despite having some of the worst quality products in the world.

On the other hand, the Japanase automakers embraced Deming and his teachings. Why? Because they knew that Americans considered Japanese products "junk" (this was back in the 60s and early 70s) and they wanted to compete. They saw quality as the number one battleground, and as we all know forty years and how many millions of lost jobs later, they were right.

The Japanese automakers transformed their companies, everywhere from the boardrooms to the assembly lines, into quality improvement machines, starting from Deming's principles and then developing their own increasing complex quality programs. Eventually they even had quality improvement projects for quality improvement!

And Americans began buying their products. American manufacturers lost market share, and continue to do so.

Belatedly, of course, the American automakers have come to understand the importance of quality, and now all of them have their own quality programs too. For that matter, just about every serious business in the world, including your local 7-11, has a quality program.

(Sam Walton got rich by following a similar strategy of Deming's use of statistics to create the most efficient retail system in the world.)

Anyway, the point of this lecture is this: American automakers are still struggling to fully invest their corporate culture with the "religion" of quality, and although their cars are much better than in the 70s, they still lag Japanese models.

However, when a Japanese manufacturer sets up shop in Ohio or Tennessee, they bring their culture of quality with them, and I for one believe our American workers are every bit as good as any Japanese employee. So I really doubt that the quality of build of a Japanese model built in America is significantly different from one built in Japan. I think a lot of us are psychologically biased to think otherwise. And of course those who happen to buy an American-built Japanese car that develops problems will never be convinced what I am saying here is true.

But Japanese-built cars have issues, too, and you can get a lemon from Japan, too. My brother bought a Japanese-built Integra many years ago and it was the mother of all lemons. I don't know what they call "Friday" in Japan, but it was definitely built on a Friday.

Each of us has a very small sample size (her or his own car) and statistically that doesn't mean much. My CL was built in America and has had ZERO problems in three years. What does have statistical power is adding up everyone's one-car experience, and when you add those experiences up, like JD Power does for example, it turns out that American-built Japanese cars are as highly regarded as Japanese-built Japanese cars, and American models, no matter where they are built, still lag.

So don't sweat it that your TL comes from Ohio. It's quality design still comes from Japan. And you can still be a proud American knowing Dr. Deming was the one who pioneered the science of quality for all the world to use.

 

I think it's the "Crazy People" factor... Ever see that movie, w/Daryl Hannah & Dudley Moore? He's an advertising exec who gets committed to an insane asylum, because he's started making ads that are completely, brutally honest. :wow: (i.e. "Volvo: They're boxy, but they're good.")

Anyway, at the very end of the movie they show a Sony ad of his, that shows big, clumsy white guys trying to put together circuit boards, with chips flying all over the place because they're too tall to see what they're working on up close. :p Meanwhile, the little Japanese guys have no trouble working on their circuit boards. The tag line is: "Sony. Because caucasians are just too damn tall."

 

I think their made better, not necessarily engine wise, but interior and exterior wise. Less things peeling, breaking, rattling, cracking, changing colors etc. My mom had a 88" Accord made in Japan, and when she purchase a 2000 Accord some were from Japan and some were from here. She demanded one made from Japan, it just gave her peace of mind. My CRX was made in Japan, 8 years old and no interior problems or sunroof problems. Got a 97 Civic made here and it had little irratating rattles, rubber lining coming off here and there, sunroof leaks. I could tell the difference. Brother had a 92 Civic LX from here, just really poorly put together all around.

Some think it's all in your mind but I know that American made Hondas are not build as good as they use to when they were made them in Japan.

 

I think Acura's made in Japan are better than those made here. But looking at Accords and Camry's, Tundra's, Altimas, etc etc of cars built here in America, they are some of the top quality cars.
I won't go there with GM or Ford.

It has a lot to do with management more than the workers.

 

Interesting... and I truly believe that you're right as well.

Here are my additional thoughts:

1)Metric System vs. British Units: Nearly every country uses the Metric System. And inarguably it is the most precise measure unit that are available to us. Now, Japan, just like everywhere, uses the Metric System. Period. That's the only measure unit they use. So, when Honda engineers design anything that has to do with cars or anything they develop, they obviously use the metric system. On the other hand, who knows anything about the metric system in the US? Maybe some engineers and scientists. When someone say 20cm, would you know how long that is right away? I am not even going to go into people in the us have no idea about the metric system and get confused when they get layout from these Japanese engineers. The bottom line is, these Japanese people use very precise measure unit system and everything just seems very right, and WE DO NOT.

2)Risk Factor: Keep in mind that these Japanese workers are building cars that will be shipped across the Pacific Ocean. They just simply can't take the risk of building something shitty because Honda has put in a lot of money just so that that shit can come to the US. This is especially true for Korean cars. The same freaken cars in Korea are a lot worse than the ones in the US.

3)Pride: They know they are building cars that will be driven in other countries with their Japanese Name. It's just like you won't send a dumbass as an embassador to represent your country.

4)American People taking both Sat. and Sun. off: I don't know how it is in Japan these days, but the very last time i was there, they work on Saturday. Americans... On Friday morning, we wake up saying "Thank God It's Friday", and we work very unproductively the whole day because you just simply can't wait to go home or party. Then there's weekend. Monday morning, most people have hard time waking up in the first place. And when they go to work, their productivity level is very low simply because they are tired from the past weekend. so, the only days we actually work very hard are Tue - Thursday. Only 3 days =P

BUT, I still believe we Americans are amazing people. We might suck at building nice cars, but who else has ever built more space shuttles than us?

 

The lowest bidder builds the space shuttle.

 

Even if you fellows are correct about work ethics in Japan and the US, it would require a failure on the part of the QA department, for a product to leave the plant as a POS. Now, I have never been to Japan, but I know that every QA tester/manager that I have ever met in the US, has been a highly educated, and well trained person. Your opinions, like all opinions are based on emotion and personal experience. The differences are entirely PERCEIVED, and nothing more.

~Z

 

No offense, jchoi19, but I think you're wrong about several things.

1) Precision is defined in the engineering world as reproducibility of results. You were probably using the term "precise" in the way that engineers actually use the word "accurate" - meaning, close to the true value. Anyway, none of that matters so much as the fact that the metric system is not one iota more precise (or more accurate) than the British system. It is a hell of a lot more logically organized, and I agree with you that Americans are not comfortable with the metric system. But you can design and built machines, tools, and parts that are just as precisely (and accurately) one-inch in diameter (for example) as you can build stuff that is 2.5 centimeters. And you can build cars using either system that are just as well put together. Both systems of measurement are essentially arbitrary. Again, the metric system is just a lot more logical.

2) You're saying they work harder to make a higher quality car in Japan because it has to withstand the rigors of being shipped to the US? I'm sorry, but I think that argument is patently silly and not worth debating, except to say this: a car can easily sustain as much damage (if not more) on a train from Ohio as on a ship from Japan.

3&4) Like several other posters in this thread, you criticize American workers as though you weren't American. (Aren't all of us American workers of some kind or another? Do we really think so lowly of ourselves?) Your first comment is more subtle - you say the Japanese take pride in the Japanese name. You really think the average Japanese assembly line worker takes more pride than the average American? Either you think the Japanese people are some kind of superhuman race or you hate your own country. I've got news for you - Japanese people like having days off, too, and they can party pretty heartily, too. If you don't believe me, walk around Tokyo's sushi bars and karyoke bars on a Friday night. Yes, Virginia, there is a Friday in Japan.

 

Lets not make this an America vs. Japan thing, please.

 

zuubah: explain that to consumer reports and jd power. then wipe the egg off your face.

 

Did you read in CR or JDP that a car of the exact same specs built here as opposed to Japan is different? Or did you read about QA inspectors education/training levels from one of those mags either? What are you trying to say? Tell me what CR and JDP say about what you are talking about. Also, if you are going to try to attack anyone personally on this topic, then I will simply take my opinion and go to another topic.

~Z

 

I can only speak for Toyota and as stated it is management. They have incredibly low tolerances for quality issues for Toyotas and for Lexus, it is even more stringent. It's not like workers make the cars and they are sent directly to the dealer. As Zuubah states, management has to inspect it.

Though if the workers believe in their product and the companies mission, it makes it easier for quality control (less issues in the first place).

 

I concur with most of this post. I think it stereotypical at best, and just plain ridiculous at worst, to endorse or blast an entire group of people, whether the boundaries be ethnic, cultural, national, or whatever.

Example: Previous generation TL and TL-S products were assembled in Ohio and carried over a 2-1 ratio of American parts. What was the number one trouble issue with those cars? Transmission. Every one of those transmissions were designed, manufactured and assembled in Japan, then shipped to Marysville. Ironic? Maybe. Shall we consider this typical in quality of all Japanese automotive products? Of course not. MDX products are built in Canada and have suffered a few quality issues also. Shall we blast the entire Canadian workforce while we're at it? I hope not.American Honda owns and operates design facilities in San Diego, CA. Previous and current gen Accords are American designs. I'm not sure how many other Honda products intended for North American assembly and sales are actually designed here.

Gator's comment about fostering and nurturing quality is every bit as relevant though. If quality is included in the design stages as well as in the assembly (which is primarily robotic anyway), the end product, whether built here or in Japan, will most likely be well received.

 

 

UminChu,
This is not the first time I have agreed with one of your posts. (Even if it was not stated on these forums)

Well put!

~Z

 

One word Unions. So this is not a myth. Even Germany has hella issues with their workers and unions (why their cars' quality is horrendous for their price and part of the reason the cars cost so much)

 

I have, and I know exactly what you are talking about. But do Tokyo people build Honda cars? Now you are comparing those people in Tokyo with people in Ohio. Wouldn't New York City be a better comparison for your argument?

From what i remember, there weren't simply anything to do in most places other than some big cities in Japan. Granted, there aren't that many things to do in Ohio either (no offense for those from Ohio, but I just spent 4 years in Ohio/Michigan area.. 'nuff said), but everyone picks up their beer on way home like they are neccessities. I don't remember seeing that many drunken people in relatively small towns in Japan.... BUT YES, THERE WERE MANY DRUNKASSES in Tokyo

 

U.S. cars top European in reliability - Big surprise right???

U.S. cars top European in reliability
Tue Mar 9, 6:47 AM ET

By Matt Nauman, Mercury News

For the first time in 25 years, European cars aren't as reliable as those made by U.S. automakers, Consumer Reports magazine says in its annual auto issue that hits newsstands today.

Asian automakers continue to lead the industry, the magazine says, but domestics topping the Europeans is a sea change.


Especially considering the high quality of cars the Europeans have been known for, "this year they seem to have dropped considerably," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test department and head of its 327-acre testing facility in Connecticut.


In all, only eight of 41 European cars and trucks tested by Consumer Reports' editors and evaluated by their readers earned the coveted "recommended" check mark.


They were: BMW 3-Series, Porsche Boxster, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, Volkswagen Passat six-cylinder, Volvo S60, S80 and V70.


European bestsellers such as the Audi A4, BMW 5- and 7-Series, Land Rover Discovery, Mercedes-Benz C-, E- and M-Classes, Mini Cooper, Volvo XC90 and VW Golf, Jetta and New Beetle aren't recommended.

In a telephone conference with reporters, Champion revealed a startling statistic: a new 2003 BMW 7-Series sedan has more problems than an 8-year-old Lexus LS 400 sedan


Consumer Reports confirms a growing awareness of less-than-perfect quality with the cars and trucks made by European automakers.


Last year, J.D. Power and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study of 3-year-old vehicles showed "substantial quality gaps" between domestic and European models. On average, European vehicles had 49 more problems per 100 vehicles than did U.S. cars and trucks at three years of ownership.


Will growing awareness of quality problems begin to affect the reputation and sales of European cars?


"I'm sure it will," Champion said. "People who buy these expensive cars tend to be busy people. Any down time in their day is a big annoyance to them."


A Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman said via e-mail that her company wouldn't comment on the findings until it got more specific details from Consumer Reports. A call to the U.S. headquarters of Volkswagen in Auburn Hills, Mich., wasn't returned Monday.


Most of the problems with European cars, according to Champion and Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, relate to electrical systems and power components such as seats.


European brands such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi "do tend to make very complicated vehicles," Champion said. Still, vehicles from Lexus and Infiniti offer similar complexity without similar problems, he said.


And, Paul noted, the problem more precisely is an apparent lack of progress rather than lack of quality.


The number of problems with European vehicles actually fell from about 21 per 100 vehicles in 2002 to 20 in 2003. Domestic vehicles, however, fell from about 21 in 2002 to about 18 in 2003.


The average for all vehicles in the survey is 17 problems per 100 vehicles, while Asian models only have 12 problems.

 

CLGator,

Your write-up is pretty good, impressive.

I love Dr. Deming theories and activism, who went to Japan at the end of World War II. It's true he really hleped Japan industries developed.

:worship:

 

Though the highest quality Japanese cars are made in Japan (Lexus, Infiniti), many of the American made ones (Honda, some Acuras dont lag too far behind in quality.

My 2002 Maxima is 100% made in Japan but appears to have measurably more service issues than the 2002 Alitma, which is made in the USA. And I'm speaking basically on the issue of parts quality.

When it comes to assembly line workers, IMO Japanese workers have a quality oriented work ethic that Americans dont have as much of. (i.e.: The guy on the line installing the the carpet on a Lexus in Japan takes total pride in the quality of the job he does; he knows his work is vital to the culture of quality at the plant. Whereas, his Toyota counterpart in Georgetown, Kentucky wants to do a good job on the installation of the carpet in the Camry but, also wants to get home as soon as possible.)

That said, IMO:

Assembly quality scale:

High<---------------------------------------------------------------->Low
Japanese worker---Amer. Worker---------------------UAW Worker

Parts Quality
High<---------------------------------------------------------------->Low
Jap cars-----Amer made. Jap cars-------------------------Domestic

 

I have a 2001 Regal GS (3.8 supercharged engine) and has been flawless - never been in for a single repair after more than 33,000 miles.

Comparing our new TL to Regal - the only thing I really see different (quality wise) is that the TL definitely has tighter body gaps but that's about it. I'd buy another GM product in a minute. In fact, it was between the TL and the new Grand Prix but my wife liked the TL better.

I personally prefer American made cars but the TL did get me to become an Acura customer. Now, if Toyota could make something that didn't scream "vanilla and bland", might eventually get me into one of those too.

 

We can all cross our fingers and wait for the "vanilla and bland" company to get off of their arse's and bring the Supra back...


~Z

 

Well 04ABYSSTL, you technically do have a domestic car. Just badged an Acura. U did buy an American made car.

 

"American Space Shuttle...Russian Space Shuttle, all the same! Made in Taiwan".

I don't know how many of you remember global studies but one of the very topics that was discussed was work culture in japan. after world war 2 when japan was in ruins they needed to get back on their feet badly. the culture in japan naturally revolves around nationalism with the pride of the japanese culture coming first. this nationalism is displayed all the time. during the war kamakazi pilots will basically kill themselves by diving into ships with their planes. so its natural for a culture who puts their nation first to have stronger work ethics. i do agree that quality control plays a key component in ensuring the highest quality products. i am not saying the japanese workers are smarter or even better at building. i think their work eithics are different resulting in better built automobiles because they do seem to care more about the job. as far as the transmission is concerned that may have been a design flaw and it doesn't matter where it was built. it would have been the same. what i think we are comparing here is the rattles and squeaks that may have been prevented if the car was assembled better.

 

If management practices as a group of leaders rather than merely a command structure, and as such nurtures a culture of quality amongst the labor force, in demonstrated leadership as much as in words, and the labor unit accepts and adopts a culture and attitude of "quality first", does it really matter where the factory is located?

My TL, built in Ohio from a majority of American made parts and components, so far has been 100% rattle, squeak and glitch free. Exterior and interior panel gaps are tight and consistent, everything lines up just so. I'm not a paint expert, but the finish looks flawless to me, and I looked carefully.

Please share your opinion: Shall I attribute my good fortune to quality design, quality of American workforce and production, Honda quality in general, Honda management, dumb luck, some combination of all of the above, or some other factor entirely?

 

2 words-okay 4: World War II and Kamikaze's. The Japenese are a damn, dedicated bunch.

This is a blanket statement so don't flame me but I think Americans have become pretty fat, dumb and happy in the last 30 years. Our whole culture is driven by self-centeredness and self absorption. It permeates every aspect of our lives. People care about good ol' numero uno and many, not all, aren't motivated to do a good job or make sure the job gets done right. If you don't buy into this, have you checked out the construction industry lately??? Bought a track home??? Quality just aint job one anymore.

 

I disagree, my neighbours son-in-law works at the Toyota Cambridge, Ontario plant that makes the Matrix and Corolla and they are very finicky about the cars and care greatly. I have friend who works at the Cami automotive plant in Ingersoll Ontario, which is a Suzuki and GM plant, and they don't give a rats ass about their vehicles. I think its all about the Manufacturer as I hear the Honda plant Alliston, Ontario that makes the Civic, MDX,Pilot and Odyssey, have employees that care and make good cars.

 

I sold Hondas for a while and from experience the cars were pretty even. Some Japanese built Accords had fit/finish issues just like the US built cars. The Preludes (all built in Japan) were ABSOLUTELY perfect.

I've owned a Civic made in Canada (perfect fit finish) and Accord made in Ohio (perfect fit finish) and a TL made in Japan (perfect fit finish)

Perhaps I'm just lucky but it seems that the more "mass produced cars" such as the TL's and Accords have more problems. Of course, there were more Accords on the lot, so that might be why!

When you have say 100 Accords and 5 Preludes... yeah, you get it.

But it is my expressly personal opinion that the S2000, Prelude and RL and NSX are THE most reliable cars Honda produces or produced.

 

i did not mean all americans are lazy and don't are about their job, just a very large number of them. i am sure you neighbor's son in law is great at his job but what about his co-workers? there are probably alot that just don't really want to be there but stay for the paycheck.

 

This is the second comment about the war. This is a terrible way of thinking.

Did not American soldiers also give their lives, many of them willingly, to preserve our nation? The fact our society frowns upon "suicide bombing" and kamikaze tactics doesn't make a kamikaze pilot any more dedicated to his country than a 19 year old American who landed, and promptly died, on the beaches of Normandy.

There are lazy and hard-working people in every nation. America, and Americans, have our flaws and problems, but in case you haven't noticed Japan's economy has been in the shitter for something like 15 years.

Oh, and WWII was a long, long time ago.

 

Sorry, but no one's "making" it into that. The original poster started the thread off that way from the get go.

You're right, though, we shouldn't have an "us vs. them" mentality. The Japanese on the whole are a lot closer to our way of thinking politically and financially than almost any other nation in the world, except Canada and Britain.

 

Good point.

 

Thanks.

We need a "head swells from praise, then explodes from false pride" emoticon.

 

Great post!

 

Great Information, CLGator - thanks!

My company develops new electronic products and then we outsource the manufacturing for our clients. Of course, 80-90% of our manufacturers are now in China.

This is partly because of the low labor costs. But, it is also due to the fact that the newest and most modern factories in the world are in China. Even the best Japanese cameras are now made in China, Malaysia, etc.

We find that the quality of the products is NOT related to the country of manufacture, but is instead DIRECTLY related to:
1. The design of the product
2. The manufacturing system and management.

One of our vendors in China produces nearly 1 Million pcs a MONTH for Sony, with ZERO defects allowed. When they do the random inspection before shipping, if there is any malfunction, or if even a cable or user guide is missing, the entire shipment is reworked! This rarely happens. They have exceeded even the reliability level of Sony's own factories in Japan. They do this with one of the least educated work forces in the world.

We are able to offer our clients products that are nearly perfect at reasonable costs because we know how to DESIGN good products, and our vendors know how to MAKE good products.

It is the ENGINEERING, the FACTORY and the MANAGEMENT that makes a good product, not where it was made or designed.

My Solara was made in Tennesee, I think. It was one of the first made in '99. I did not have a SINGLE problem with it in 5 years. Nothing, Nada, Zip.

US auto makers are fully capable of making the finest cars in the world, but they are handicapped by the fickleness of the American Investors. Should Ford or Chrysler or GM put out the Millions need to revamp their design and manufacturing facilities, and NOT pay dividends for a couple of years, the stock market will desert them in droves, cutting the value of the company.

On the other hand, the Japanese culture rewards long-term planning, and Toyota's investors were patient while the lost money with the Lexus products, year after year, buying their way into the American market. An LS400 was $34,950 when it was introduced, and is now nearly double that. You think that the production cost has doubled - Hardly! Lexus sold the car at little or no profit, rasing the price gradually as it was accepted.

This will never happen in the USA with our "instant gratification" culture.

Enough rambling for now.

 

It's called 'reverse engineering'. All the asian countries practice this and they do it better than us. For example, Demming (an American) came up with the idea of applying statistics to manufacturing process. Our ego (and massive slave consumer market) ignored him and went on about our way of things (namely the big 3). We didn't pay attention until our invention started to kick our collective a$$. Now, all the companies are going japanese craze (kanban, kaizan, and other japanes process ideas that have American roots). The simple fact of the matter is we invent stuff, our government don't back private enterprises (this time capitalism hurts us), the invention goes overseas where the governement does back the reverse engineering, they put their flag on with a nice package and now we think they came up with it.

By the way, if our 5 day work week hurts us, then how does the euro's get away with their work hours & 4 day work week?

 

i also believe the work ethics in china to be better than americans as well. most commercial products are made in asia because of cheap labor with the ability to maintain quality. almost all of the processors that we have in our computers are made in taiwan. all laptops are made by basically one manufacturer in Taiwan (forgot the name) who is contracted by companies like Dell and HP. workers in asia do honestly care more about their job than americans. i do not deny the fact that structure, management and quality control in a corporation leads to a better product. but worksmanship will be affected by the worker. Just look at our society, people over indulge so much that the country is the fattest in the world.