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Old 12-31-2005, 10:15 AM
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Smile Just got it!

Hey guys!

I finally took delivery of an '06 Black / Ebony 6-speed TL w/ A-Spec wheels and suspension. Pics to come shortly...

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone's insight during the painful deal-making process. I'll plan on being a regular on the forum.

BTW, this is my first stick...and I know it's not the brightest idea to practice on a brand new $35k car but it is what it is. She was not too happy with me yesterday but it got better and I'm not really stalling anymore. Any tips out there from TL 6-speeders? I was curious what RPMs you are bring the engine too before starting to release the clutch. I've been bringing the engine up to about 1500 or so. I'm at the point of just trying to get faster at getting going in first gear. I've got through Monday to practice before I have to get in Atlanta rush hour Tuesday morning.

Any thoughts (and positive reinforment) would be much appreciated!

Thanks Guys
Old 12-31-2005, 10:22 AM
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Congrats on your new TL and welcome to the fourm ! Don't have a stick so can't help you with the shifting. Good luck in the Atlanta rush !!!!
Old 12-31-2005, 10:32 AM
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Vector, here's a posting by SouthernBoy about MT's. Quite lengthy but well worth the read for folks with MT. Very good tips.

1. Use as little throttle as possible while still being able to keep the engine from stalling or lugging, and get the clutch out as quickly as possible without bucking or lurching. Do not pulse the clutch.. this is a bad habit and once learned hard to unlearn.

2. Depends upon the accelerative needs, load condtions (in car and if on a hill), and speed to which you are trying to reach. The clutch should be released as throttle is applied in such a fashion that the engagement is totally seemless. Shifting in to second or any gear.. very little time.. not more than a few seconds. You should fully disengage the clutch and shift into the next higher gear in such a manner that the shift is smooth and not unduly forced.

3. Your revving higher than normal because of ascending a hill is correct.

4. Under no circumstances should you hold a car on a hill with the clutch partially engaged. This is VERY bad and will significantly shorten the life of the clutch assembly. This best medicine for this is practice.

Here is an edited collection of postings I did on another website. Please excuse the redundancy in this text. I hope if helps you out.

=============================================

Note: As it says, this is a collage of various postings I have made over the past one and a half years on the altimas.net website. So you are likely to see redundancy as well as a few other items of disarray. But enjoy and I hope you learn something.

PROPER MANUAL TRANSMISSION DRIVING TECHNIQUES

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!

Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing and other extreme conditions such as towing constitute a whole different approach and, as such, do not come under this.

Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.
Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.

Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.

Do's:

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.

Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.

I spent some time teaching a lady with whom I worked 10 years ago these techniques when she purchased a new '92 Honda Accord LX. When I last spoke with her, she had well over 140,000 miles on the original clutch with no signs of slippage. So I'm not jerking anyone's chain here. Learn to operate a manual transmission correctly and you will reap the rewards by saving a lot of money. Plus you will be one of the few who know how to do this right.

I don't mean to set myself up here as some kind of guru because I am not. But I have been driving vehicles with manual transmissions for over 40 years. I have spent the time to perfect the process into an art form because when done correctly, that’s what it is. When I sold my '88 Mustang LX 302CID, it was 6 years old and had 77,000 miles on it. When the buyer drove it, he asked me when I replaced the clutch because to him, it felt very positive. I told him that I had never replaced it and that it was the original unit. I added that it wouldn't make any sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that is not very much wear. He had a little bit of a hard time believing this, but he did buy the car. Three months later, he called me up to let me know how much he liked the car and to tell me had had not wrapped it around a tree. He again asked about the clutch and I again told him that it was the original clutch.

I used to own a 1966 Chevelle SS396/360HP. I was the original owner of the car. For a period of about 2 years, I was street racing the car frequently on the weekends. At 83,000 miles when I sold it, it would still break traction in all four gears and the clutch had no slippage. It was tight and strong. Now granted, American cars have traditionally had stronger clutches than Japanese cars. This is changing because the Japanese are putting larger and stronger (torque) engines in their cars.

Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out a bit (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.

Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Double clutching was a technique that came about when earlier manual transmissions did not have synchronizers. If you did not double clutch, you would experience some serious gear grinding when shifting.

If you did not have synchronizers in your transmission, you would have had two choices when shifting gears: (1) put up with some really serious grinding and damage/breakage to gear teeth, or (2) manually match the speed of the gears in each selected shift so that you would eliminate the problems just mentioned in #1.

Suppose you are traveling in second gear, the engine is turning at 2500 RPM, and you are getting ready to shift to third. At the road speed you are going, let's say that once in third, your engine would be turning at 1800 RPM. When you remove your foot from the gas, the engine is going to loose RPMs quickly and by the time you get into third, the engine might only be turning 1200 RPM. Without synchronizers, you would need to raise the engine back up to 1800 RPM in order for the gears to mesh. By blipping the throttle and at the same time letting the clutch out some when you are passing through the neutral gate, you will both increase engine RPM and increase gear speed. As the engine RPMs fall back off, they will reach a point at which you will be able to complete the shift.

Since for years, manual transmissions have been fully synchronized, there is no need whatsoever to double clutch when upshifting and I definitely recommend against this practice.

Now downshifting is much like this, only in reverse. In other words, you are going from a higher gear to a lower gear so if your engine was turning at 2500 RPM and you wanted to shift to second, You would want to blip the throttle enough to raise engine speed to perhaps around 3200 - 3500 RPM.

When you are upshifting, the RPMs fall off and most people find it pretty easy to adjust to this and to add throttle at the right time so that when the clutch comes back out, they have the proper RPM's for the gear selection/road speed.

However, most people downshift by (1) removing their foot from the throttle, (2) moving the shifter into the next lower (or chosen) gear, then (3) slowly releasing the clutch while adding little or no throttle. This is NOT the proper manner in which to downshift. What you are doing in effect, is riding the clutch in reverse. In other words, you probably wouldn't dare attempt to start your car off in third gear because you would have to add a lot of throttle and really slip the clutch to get the car moving. When you downshift like the example I just gave, you are doing something similar to starting off in a higher gear, though it does take more energy to get a car moving from a dead start. Now if you double clutch during the downshift, you are spinning up the gears and the transition to the next gear will be quite smooth.

Junkyard asked a question about the concept of “passing through the neutral gate”. You don’t stop or stay in neutral. You are just passing through, so to speak. In your second question, you said I had mentioned to put the car in neutral when downshifting. Not exactly. Try this with the engine off.

Put the car in fourth. Depress the clutch and shift to third and let the clutch out. Now do the same thing, only this time as you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out some or a good deal and blip the throttle, then clutch back in, get into third, clutch comes out for the final time. That is the movement you want.

Incidentally, blipping the throttle is just a little stab at the petal, enough to raise RPMs to the desired level. You do not want to be on the throttle long because you will be in the process of shifting. Yes, this does take a lot of practice and may not come easily for many, but it is the best way, in fact the only proper way, to downshift because it very significantly reduces clutch and synchronizer wear (especially clutch), and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to do it quite fast.

The bottom line to all of this folks is to match engine speed to wheel speed in a given gear, and to do it in such a manner as to eliminate undue trauma to your drive train. I do this all of the time and have been downshifting like this since my late teens. I actually learned it from a magazine article (as I can best recall). If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly operate, all of the components and how they perform together, you will understand the beauty of the process.

Oh the grinding noise Junkyard hears when he starts letting up the clutch too quickly is most likely due to not having fully engaged the gear teeth and they separate (pop out of gear). That or he actually begins engaging the gear teeth before the clutch is fully depress so there is still some flywheel/disk/pressure plate contact.

One of the things I noticed right off the bat on my SE was that the clutch began to engage much too close to the floor for me (a contributor to the problem Junkyard has had). It was starting to engage about 1 inch from the floor, so I adjusted it out to 2 inches and it is fine. If you do this, just make sure you have the required toeplay, otherwise you will prematurely wear out your release bearing.

The purpose of letting the clutch out some as you pass through the neutral gate is to spin the gears up in preparation for the speed at which they must be at for the lower gear selection. This will allow you to get into that gear very easily. When you depress the clutch, you disengage the crankshaft from the transmission. The gears in the transmission will begin to slow down. By letting out the clutch some (or completely) in the neutral gate, you once again, MOMENTARILY, engage the full drive train and get the gears spinning. Only this time since you have blipped the throttle, they'll be spinning faster. As they slow down from the higher speed, your clutch will be coming out for the final time with the transmission in gear and the mesh will be smooth.

Try it both ways. Do it first the way you do it and notice that you have to add a little bit of force to get the shifter into gear. That's because the synchronizers are doing their job of gear speed meshing. Now try it the way I outlined and if you do it right, you will have virtually no resistance as you slip the shifter into your chosen gear.

Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.

To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.
Old 12-31-2005, 10:58 AM
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This is great information. But I have a question, under normal conditions, how quickly should I be off the clutch when starting, and what is the lowest possible RPMs on our cars? About 1500?
Old 12-31-2005, 11:10 AM
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Ya know Ive never paid attention to it. I think you will just get a feel for it. I really dont know what RPM's Im releasing the clutch at. I think over time you will just have a seat of the pants feel for it. It took me some time to get used to it.
Old 12-31-2005, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by trancemission
Ya know Ive never paid attention to it. I think you will just get a feel for it. I really dont know what RPM's Im releasing the clutch at. I think over time you will just have a seat of the pants feel for it. It took me some time to get used to it.
You're right. As you said, you'll get a feel for it.

Congrats vector7777 on your choice. While my TL is an '04 Antracite/Ebony/6MT/Nav, the black on blacks are really sharp in this car.. you will not be disappointed.

As for your questions, "how quickly should I be off the clutch when starting, and what is the lowest possible RPMs on our cars? About 1500?", get the clutch out as quickly as you can with the lowest RPMs UNDER THE INSTANCE CONDITIONS (such as a hill, having to accelerate more quickly than normal, etc.). I would say that under normal conditions, your guess of around 1500 RPM is pretty much dead on. You do not want to "ride" the clutch any more than is absolutely necessary before gaining full engagement. As you start the engagement process, you will need to add a little throttle to keep the engine from dying as the clutch engages. Watch this and don't add so much throttle that you find it necessary to maintain partial engagement.

I know it all sounds "out there" and like "perfect theory", but once you get the hang of it, you'll do fine.

Watch your downshifts. This is where most people who drive cars with manual transmission screw up. If you just cannot seem to master the techniques I've outlined, keep your downshifting to a minimum. It's much cheaper to replace brakes that to replace a clutch assembly.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Old 12-31-2005, 08:34 PM
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How much did they charge you for the A-spec wheels and suspension cuz i want to put those on my car too.
Old 01-01-2006, 12:11 AM
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Drive, Drive, Drive! Put the miles in between now and Tuesday. Work on the thing that all beginning clutch drivers hate: The start from a standstill on a mild hill. This will quickly teach you the engagement point of your clutch, and just how much throttle you need to use to avoid bogging the engine. Don't worry about learning on a 35K car. It's your 35K car, and the clutch will survive.

Don't focus too much on the exact RPM you think you need, and definetly don't stare at the tach on takeoff. Turn off the radio and all other distractions, and use the sound of the engine and the feel of the accelleration to tell you when you're right on the money. Engagement rpm will change depending on how aggressively you wish to leave drivers of lesser cars choking on your exhaust fumes.

When you add clutch too fast for the amount of power you're requesting via the throttle, you will bog the engine and it will lug, or shudder. You've probably already experienced this once or twice.

When you don't let the clutch out quickly enough for the amount of power you're dialing up, the engine RPM will rise quickly ahead of the car's speed. You will be immediately aware of this by the sound of the engine, without any need to look at the tach.

I would wait to start working on the downshifting until I was fairly confident with the upshifting. Now get out there and do some driving around town, with lots of stop signs.

Learning to use a clutch is not that hard, and once you experience the additional control that it gives over the car, and how much more immersive the driving experience becomes, you will never want to go back to an AT. You'll also never have to endure people like me telling you that buying a car with an AT is only one step away from wearing pink, lacy women's underwear...
Old 01-01-2006, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by shockwave
Drive, Drive, Drive! Put the miles in between now and Tuesday. Work on the thing that all beginning clutch drivers hate: The start from a standstill on a mild hill. This will quickly teach you the engagement point of your clutch, and just how much throttle you need to use to avoid bogging the engine. Don't worry about learning on a 35K car. It's your 35K car, and the clutch will survive.

Don't focus too much on the exact RPM you think you need, and definetly don't stare at the tach on takeoff. Turn off the radio and all other distractions, and use the sound of the engine and the feel of the accelleration to tell you when you're right on the money. Engagement rpm will change depending on how aggressively you wish to leave drivers of lesser cars choking on your exhaust fumes.

When you add clutch too fast for the amount of power you're requesting via the throttle, you will bog the engine and it will lug, or shudder. You've probably already experienced this once or twice.

When you don't let the clutch out quickly enough for the amount of power you're dialing up, the engine RPM will rise quickly ahead of the car's speed. You will be immediately aware of this by the sound of the engine, without any need to look at the tach.

I would wait to start working on the downshifting until I was fairly confident with the upshifting. Now get out there and do some driving around town, with lots of stop signs.

Learning to use a clutch is not that hard, and once you experience the additional control that it gives over the car, and how much more immersive the driving experience becomes, you will never want to go back to an AT. You'll also never have to endure people like me telling you that buying a car with an AT is only one step away from wearing pink, lacy women's underwear...
Good points, all.. especially about the underwear (yuk, yuk).

I would add the using the tach during the initial phases of learning to drive a manual is not a bad idea at all because most people never use their tachs.. they're like meaningless gauges to them. BUT, I agree with you about trying to get away from their use, also. I would say use the tach at first to help get a feel of how the car starts off from a stop. Then star to ween off of its use as you learn to listen to the engine and just get a "feel" for the car itself.

I would also suggest to safely learn the basics, find a large parking lot somewhere, such as a shopping center or school or church, and practice there until he gets a decent hang of it and is ready to move out onto the streets.

You made some good points. If he does this right, the chances of any premature clutch wear are pretty remote.
Old 01-01-2006, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by whatjones911
How much did they charge you for the A-spec wheels and suspension cuz i want to put those on my car too.

I paid $3,450 for both...not the best price I know...I've read that you can get them cheaper off E-bay from Acura of Las Vegas and get them installed through a 3rd party or do it yourself.
Old 01-01-2006, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by shockwave
Drive, Drive, Drive! Put the miles in between now and Tuesday. Work on the thing that all beginning clutch drivers hate: The start from a standstill on a mild hill. This will quickly teach you the engagement point of your clutch, and just how much throttle you need to use to avoid bogging the engine. Don't worry about learning on a 35K car. It's your 35K car, and the clutch will survive.
Guys this is great stuff...please keep it coming! I've been practicing quite a bit and will continue today. My parent's subdivision has plenty of rolling hills that I will be taking full advantage of!

I promise pics are coming this afternoon! And speaking of women's underwear, there will be plenty being thrown at this car!
Old 01-01-2006, 09:35 PM
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Here she is guys:



Old 01-01-2006, 09:51 PM
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Here she is, guys.

Old 01-01-2006, 10:48 PM
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I fixed your pics. For photobucket, click on the bottom box below the picture, which will give you the URL with [img] instead of the one with [url]. Copy that and paste it directly into the post.
Old 01-01-2006, 11:13 PM
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Does your a-spec wheels have the TPMS sensors on them?
Old 01-01-2006, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by vector7777
This is great information. But I have a question, under normal conditions, how quickly should I be off the clutch when starting, and what is the lowest possible RPMs on our cars? About 1500?
I shift between 2000 to 3000...anything after that feels like your forcing the car to go faster. I dont let it go pass 2000 in the morning...until the car is warmed up. 5 to 10 mins later after its warmed up....and if I feel like driving fast I'll start shifitng at 4000 to 5000. I live in Florida so it doesnt take much to warm up the car here.
Old 01-02-2006, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by whatjones911
Does your a-spec wheels have the TPMS sensors on them?

Yes...my A-specs have the TPMS sensors.
Old 01-02-2006, 11:50 AM
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1500 rpms is about right (even a little bit lower is fine). I also learned how to drive a stick on my car. Here are a few tips I can give you.

1. Drive the car more. Drive in traffic, on hills, etc. so that you learn how the car/you react in different situations.
2. Don't be lazy. The time I spent learning the proper form was well-spent in my book. I kept trying to learn how to rev-match and not the the car "do" it for me. I learned to keep my heel off the ground when I engaged/dis-engaged the clutch. I learned to use the "dead" pedal when I didn't have to shift so I wouldn't ride the clutch.

I'm still learning to this day, but I keep having to remind myself that I should not be lazy. I shouldn't believe that I have learned it all...and this is the best I can do. Someone once posted on this site (probably our resident MT guru SouthernBoy) that driving an MT is an art...but very few perfect it. The more you read, and practice, the more satisfied you will be about your own performance.

Good luck...and once you get it down...the clutch/shifter is a sweet combo.




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