Seattle Cl-S

...don't try to race me out there either - my buddies 545 never even comes close to my CLS or my V

apwalsh

I was referring to Lexus vs BMW. Not the TL

apwalsh

I think that performance and quality are two different things. I also think that most people are referring to reliability when they say quality, and Lexus is leagues ahead of BMW in that department.

nikko

I don't know what was the problem before however, I find the center arm rest very comfortable. What really sucks is the storage space which is poorly designed.
I am very pleased with the interior quality, the only thing I am still working to adjust to is the cold and spartan interior that is so typical to german cars.
Once again, very impressed by interior quality!

nikko

Very hard to believe this....545 is low 5 sec if not less.....

SCWells72

Yep, the Lexus is an auto. That's what I wanted at the time, and for the four+ years afterward. Then I got the manual craving again, hence the S4. It's an '04 B6 S4 6MT, and just this weekend I threw the DVD navigation system/MP3 player from the B7 into it. Pretty much plug-and-play. Looks great!

levyfresh

Agreed on the reliability front...but I believe that performance is certainly a part of quality...how could it not be?

Xpditor

If true, that would be impressive. Although the TL has turned in 5.1 and 5.6 in some mag testing.

What is your source? Curious.

apwalsh

A car of shitty quality can perform well, as a car of great quality can perform poorly.

Then again, some people define the quality of a car by it's level of performance, which is understandable, but it's still not the same really.

nikko

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=8011

They say 0-60mph in 5.5 sec and 1/4 mile in 14.1 sec but this is very conservative as other mag testing turned out to be 0-60 5 sec flat.

levyfresh

Thats a little to subjective...From what your saying...The performance of the suspension, Motor, brakes,etc. aren't a factor in the quality of the product...Damn I wonder why I didn't just go out and buy a Hyundai XG or a toyota corolla

Seattle Cl-S

The CLS has a blower...runs 13.4@105. I'd be about six car lengths ahead by the end of the 1/4 mile. A race for 20 feet might be a little different since I wouldn't be able to hook up as well as a RWD car.

As for the CTS-V...well, different league in terms of performance than the 545.

Seattle Cl-S

You do realize that 0-60 has alot to do with traction right? An Evo or STI hits 0-60 in less than 5 seconds. Does that mean that the Evo/STI could pull from a 545 on a highway roll though? Nope...though in this example it would be close. The number you need to be looking at is the 1/4 mile trap speed.

nikko

I was talking about stock cars....I wonder what would happen if a 545 would be modified..it would turn out into a highway monster!

rets

I kind of agree what you've said above, and have experienced some of these issues in the first week I got this car. I love BMW, however, the current 5 series apparently has not received the same reputation/rating as its predecessor did. Well, 545 would be the awesome vehicle for you. Good luck to you.

Xpditor

Hmm. Nice! That's for a 6 MT. The same testers got 5.6 sec 0-60 for a 2004 TL with a 6MT.

Not bad. 1/10 sec quicker for only $24,000 more. Their dimensions are almost identical. Road & Track tested a TL and a BMW 530 and found that the TL out-handled the lighter (than 545) in slalom and in grip.

Yesterday, I priced a 530 BMW with the same options as my TL. The Bimmer came to $60,000.

I have a BMW. I love them. All things equal, I would rather have a BMW.

But, alas, all things are NOT equal. Especially price.

If money were no consideration, I would probably have 2 or 3 BMWs in the stable.

nikko

Can you post the article/link that says TL out-handled BMW 530?

Xpditor

Of course.

They were tested in the same issue (April 2004) but not side by side. It was at the same test site under the same conditions with the same testers, however- it was not a comparison article per se.

The Acura TL:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=1

The 530i:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=1

It is most informative if you download the two data pages- the data graphs- for direct comparison. The comments are also very interesting. These are experienced sports car drivers. They were amazed at the competence of the FWD TL. It had better grip and better speed in the slalom although they were close. They were also close in their handling characteristics: moderate understeer.

Subjectively, I think I agree with most folks who drive both that the BMW has more familiar and comfortable characteristics that we RWDrivers are used to. We like to be able to hang the tail out with the throttle. I suspect that's because it's how we learned and it's fun. It turns out that it doesn't seem to get the car to the finish line any faster.

So we can feel good or we can win (in the case of these two cars, anyway.)

I should also mention that the TL had an obvious power advantage over the BMW.

Neither do I extrapolate that the results would be the same with a 330i. I just don't know.

Ga_Tech_TL

This thread is really popular now but i just gotta say some things first though. A lexus is not above a BMW. What are u smoking? I guess in terms of like luxury then Lexus is above BMW as BMW is not really into luxury but more into sportiness. Also, there is no way a TL could handle better than a 530. A 530 is a heavy car but still it is a RWD... And last, 545i are very fast cars, u cant say that they are not in the same league as the CTS-V. CTS-V is a nice car but i think the 545 can def keep up with the Caddy bc the Caddy is a heavier car. Plus on the track, well caddies suck (bc its an american car). And the CL-S... well that's a ricer car, man. I think the speed capability of that car is amazing but still it dosnt matter if its faster. The 545 is the highest class in the BMW 5 series. With a ss released from Dinan, the 545 will fly. BUt then again, 545 isnt supposed to be like that.

nikko

It's a bit strange to learn that FWD out-handles RWD. I do know one thing though:
I pushed my TL above 50 mph on a very sharp on-ramp and it oversteered to the point where I freaked out. Same on-ramp but this time with my new 545, I did close to 60mph and the car was solid like a tank, not even a bit of body roll.
It is beyond me that a car that has 68/32 weight distribution ratio will out-handle a car that is 50/50 weight distribution.
Anyways, I don't try to prove anything, this was my

MR1

That test was a TL vs 530i, you have a 545. This is a very different beast and in a different league of performance.

IMHO the TL competes very well aganist 525-530 but not a 545. Enjoy the new ride and don't worry about what anybody else thinks.

Seattle Cl-S

Just for your info, the CTS-V's handling is on par with the E46 M3 and the E39 M5. It also weighs over 200lbs less than the M5. EVERY article out there states this. The V does the 1/4 in 13.1@109 and pulls 0.90 G's bone stock. So, unless you're saying the 545 can beat those two benchmarks then your facts are waaaaaaaaay off.

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/seda...io/index7.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

Caddies suck on the track? Tell that to the losers in the SCCA (RS6, Vipers, Saleen).

http://www.code-v.com/press/2004/031904.htm


Since when did a CL become a 'ricer car'??? Just b/c it's japanese owned? I always though 'ricer' denoted rediculous body kits and neon lights. How can a stock car with rims be 'ricer'?

Xpditor

.

Xpditor

Preach it, brother.

Don't underestimate those CTSs.

Just watch an SCCA race or check the numbers for the CTS-V. It's competition is Corvettes and cars in that league.

It's not your father's Cadillac. (to purloin a phrase)

Ga_Tech_TL

Um i never said that they can beat the V. I said that the 545 can keep up with it. Wait a minute and let me go ask some guiys on a diff forum about the CTS v and the e46 m3's par handling performances. That shit was heavy as hell when i drove it. Fast, cenrtainly but quck aroudn the conrner.... no. Again, i never said the 545 is faster. And a m5 would smoke the V. Now we are talking about diff leagues. 500 hp, v10, 7 spd smg...

Ga_Tech_TL

Yes, CL-S is a ricer car bc is a jap. NO offense or anything but i never considered hondas as luxury cars until they came out w/ the 3rd gen TL and the RL. A stock CL-S isnt even close to being as fast as a 545. Dont even talk about modding bc with the right money u can do anything to the bimmer. Again, im not offending the CLS but still its no german.

apwalsh

The continued performance of the suspension, motor and brakes would directly relate to quality or reliability, but performance is a different thing altogether. Hyundai's and Toyota's have excellent quality and reliability.

The bottom line is quality is an adjective used to describe something, and performance is a noun. They are not the same thing technically, but I thought I made it clear that I underdstand that some people define the quality of a car by its performance. That doesn't make them the same thing.

You didn't go out and buy a XG or Corolla because you wanted more performance, and probably more luxury, neither of which equate to quality.

apwalsh

The 545 is not keeping up with the V. They are not in the same league as far as performance.



What does this mean? You just said the BMW was more into sportiness, and then this? It sounds like you are saying that the BMW is not meant to be tuned, but if it's more into sportiness than luxury, why not?

Lexus has better reliability than a BMW was the only thing I saw anyone say. Not that the Lexus is above the BMW completely, just at least that category.

levyfresh

Um ok lets put this argument to rest cause we are on a different page...but to correct you quality is a noun and an adjective....Its a noun which means degree of excellence...also if you read the various reports posted...quality is not the issue presented...dependability is...big difference

Ga_Tech_TL

WEll first off man, this is not confirmed but a M5 supercharger costs like 20 or 30gs... I mean i could say that could mean BMW weren't supposed to be tuned. They dont need to be bc they come all with big engiens with plenty hp. I think 0-60 spds are similar with the 545 and the V. BTW, the 545 comes in SMG which saves a lot time bc there is no need to use the clutch. But yeah, the V has more hp so it shold be faster but i wouldnt say they are in diff leagues...

Seattle Cl-S

The V's 0-60 is 4.6 seconds and hits the 1/4 in 13.1@109. The 545 would lose about 6 car lengths on every straightaway around a road course. It was also lose ground in every corner because the V can pull 0.9G's. If that doesn't put it in a different league as the 545 then I guess you're also saying there is no reason to buy a M3 or M5 either.

I also stated earlier that the V is comparable to the E39 M5 in terms of performance, not the new 500hp beast. That machine truly is in a class of its own.

Sorry about the thread hijack. I just can't stand misinformation and BMW > * attitudes. The 545 is an amazing machine both inside and out. This is true of their entire lineup. But you can't just go about spouting that there is nothing else that can keep up with one just because you happen to like the brand. Reality check.

Ga_Tech_TL

well at least we got that cleared. No way is the V comparable to the new M5. I think the e39 M5 still gets the V though as there are several races posted on the site and shows clearly who the winner is. I do like the Caddy but i wouldnt say taht it is a true performance racing car bc of the fact that it is a muscle car. Sorry but BMW >>> Caddy, the two brands really cant be compared as BMW is german and Caddy is another American brand. 545 is really in the middle of it all. Its got similar numbers as the e46 m3 so i would say that its in the same league as the V. The V just has the torque and hp advantage. If with right mods like dual exhaust and weight reduction, the 545 should be right there with the V. And the thread was hijacked so long ago so dont really feel sorry abou it

apwalsh

Well if performance is part of quality then dependability would have to be also. You can't have it both ways!

levyfresh

that was my original point...let me amend that last statement...Quality was not the ONLY issue...dependability was...big difference. Anyway Nice car Nikko!!

F23A4

...I think he's on a different page (probably different book) than us apwalsh.

levyfresh

lol Read my last post...and quit the holier than thou crap

Xpditor

If you guys want to discuss BMWs and Cadillacs, do it over in Car Talk, as I suggested before.

This forum is for Third Generation TLs.

Thanks.