hondafan

I stopped by the local Honda dealer today and looked at a 06 Civic Hybrid. After a test drive I was pretty impressed with the total package, minus the ugly wheels. Now I'm actually thinking of selling my A-spec and going green. The 50+ mpg is very appealing, but I'm not sure the backseat will be big enough for a 4 year old and a new born on the way. The TL has certainly been the nicest car I've ever owned so I'm sort of torn between having an absolutely wonderful car, or a car that is great for my pocketbook and the environment. Have I completely lost it by even thing about getting rid of the TL and going back to a Civic?

HiTEC

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, if that's what you choose. Cars are nothing but a waste of money and there is nothing wrong with going economical (car and mpg).

RS_TL_Lover

well
i won't
consider how much safer it is for you and your chrilden
the TL is certainly a lot better then the civic
just that will be enough to get u to keep ur TL

leedogg

I would not advise a hybrid if you want to save on pocket book, only for environment.

a) I would say you would probably break even on the hybrid around 100k miles
b) Any repair/maintenance will likely require a special mechanic at special mechanic prices.
which brings up c) that your average joe mechanic may not be able to fix your car if you break down in some remote location.

Burgman

Wow, you must have big kids.

fast-tl

I tohught the same thing! Surely the car would be big enough. Although I may not be one to talk since our other vehicle is a Ford Expedition to cart around a 4- and 8-year-old, haha!

hondafan

A baby bucket and a rear facing child seat takes up a ton of room, so for the next couple of years mom will be sitting in front with the seat about half way forward and I'm 6'3" so my 4 year old which will be required to sit behind me will be a little more cramped than in the TL.

hondafan

Thanks for the feedback. All comments seem like very good advice. My TL is paid for, so I'd probably be able to get the Civic and put $6-7k in my pocket, but the opinions being presented certainly will make me really think before I pull the trigger.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

I would highly recommend picking up this month's issue of Motor Trend. In it, you will find a good comparison test between the Prius and the Civic hybrid.

Oh, and you most likely won't be seeing 50+ mpg at all. Sorry to diappoint ya. New laws will be in effect soon to reflect more realistic figures for hybrids... which will bring down the estimated fuel mileage by anywhere between 10-30% on the hybrids. In other words, the figures are all jacked up right now.

clsdave

I would want to know how long do the batteries last and what is the cost of their replacement before purchasing a hybrid.

Also is there any additional maintenance on a Civic hybrid?

erdoc48

In truth, I have also thought about a 4 cylinder because of the recent increse in the price of gas. However, any savings from better fuel economy should be weighed against the upfront costs of a new car, depreciation and the like. Also, if you already own a TL, which is an upscale car, do you want to do without some features like a leather interior and heated seats? If the TL was getting more like 12 mpg, you could make a case for a smaller 4 cylinder, but since the TL gets more like in the low to mid 20's (mpg), then it's probably not worth getting a smaller car. Like one of the posters noted, hybrid cars are great and green, but not really worth the initial cash outlay. If you decide on a 4 cylinder, you would probably be better off getting a Civic EX, that way it's fully loaded, will get mid 30's mpg, and will be as close to a luxury car as possible. The hybrid lacks a sunroof, is slower than the standard 4 cylinder, and has the ugly wheels. As for me, if the price of fuel climbs, I'll do what I did last year: cycle between the TL, my motorcycle (ST1100), and my MR2 Spyder.

Brettg

For its size and power, the TL does REAL good on the mpg ratings.
Forget the money side, selling the TL will loose you big bucks, and you will be behind even if gas gets to $6.00 a gallon.

I would not worry about the civic hybrid reliability, or getting it fixed, its a honda
and rated real good.

The only real reason to get the hybrid is to stop paying nasty countries and rotten
oil companies for loads of gasoline.

Go solar on the house, and use it to charge the hybrids batteries, the prius
has a kit you can buy to enable it to go 100 mpg, bigger battery and external charging...

If everyone went solar power on their roof, and charged up their hybrid with it,
this country to tell the oil countries to pound sand.

With oil guys running the country, thats not going to happen, record profits by oil companies and oil men as prez, vice prez, sec def, what do people expect?


Brett

Power1Pete

Civic hybrid is nice, but I think the Accord hybrid fits you better.

hondafan

Definately not worth the 5 mpg increase over the TL, plus I'd have to put down some cash to get it.

I really don't think there is any benefit to go with the Accord Hybrid as I could purchase the 4 cyclinder Accord and get better fuel milage than the V6 Hybrid.

hondafan

I was thinking about going solar on the house. Has anybody on the site done that yet and if so how much should I expect to pay to retrofit an 8 year old home?

RS_TL_Lover

you will regret it if you get into an accident
u will think back and think how the TL would have safe some part of your body
civic is a paper box

leedogg

In an accident, hybrids can be a veritable gigantic live battery. Emergency rescue workers need special training on how to ground/drain the battery to make sure they dont get fried while cutting through the vehicle.

hondafan

The saftey aspect is a concern for me and sometimes when you rush a decison you don't put all things into perspective. I clearly did not even consider the safety factor. The TL is the safest car in it's class and I forgot about that as all I could see earlier today was all the $$ I'd be saving should gas get to $5 a gallon by going to a Civic. Maybe that won't happen for a couple more years. Thanks for all of the feedback I can definatley see the light.

leedogg

you might be able to drop to a standard accord if you want to save a few. Cant go wrong with an accord.

Brettg

There is/was a rebate, from the state, and the feds, that pays like 70% of the cost, if you get a loan for the rest, you figure you are going to get electricity
for what the loan cost, over 20 years.
Sunlight is free, so it winds up being like three cents a KW hour locked in for
20 years, if the system works longer then that, its totaly free.

Some states allow you to SELL the power to the grid, install a big system and get free power, if the price goes way up, you just MAKE more money...

Honda should have made the 4 cylinder accord a hybrid, not the V6.
The 4 can use the power boost more then the V6, and it would get really good MPG! I would have gone for that...

Brett

RS_TL_Lover

haha
good for u
safety should always be the top top consideration

mlody

Accord i4 won’t get you more than 1-2MPG than TL, not to mention Accord Hybrid. I moved from ’04 TL 6MT to ’06 Accord i4 5MT and I regret buying i4 because I am not saving any money on gas (almost). My TL had some problems, so I had to let it go, but i4 for sure is not a gas saver – at least the way I drive, which is the same driving that I did on my TL (same roads, speed, temp etc). for gas saving, I think Accord v6 is the best deal, lots of power, and torque and excellent mileage – better in most cases than i4 sibling.

hondafan

I'll most likely be keeping the TL for the foreseeable future. Thanks all for the feedback.

TL Dude

18K - 22 K for a is a real rough estimate from the research I have done. 1600 sq ft house in califronia. That was two years ago. Rate may be better. Assumes break even energy costs at the end of the year.


Sorry for off topic response

subinf

I'll join you on that off topic response. My neighbors just finished solar power on their house. I think they paid a lot more, but their house is freaking huge...so its probably not realistic for what everyone else would be paying. There are a hell of a lot of rebates and incentives out there as well.

03CoupeV6

With all due respect, where the hell have you been? Under a rock?

The TL is in fact NOT the safest car in its class, but the Civic is. The Civic is the ONLY small car to earn a Gold rating from the IIHS - meaning it aced every single crash it was subjected to - frontal offset, side, and rear (head restraint). The TL is much worse in a rear-end collision than a Civic.

This sort of misinformation spewed forth... errr.. maybe I should rephrase this - people talking as if they have the facts when actually they know absolutely nothing pisses me off. If you're going to step into a thread here and have an opinion, at least take 30 seconds and research it before you post.

Goodness.

hondafan

Hmmmmmmm?

fast-tl

Last time *I* looked, the TL was more massive than a Civic and from my earlier post, mass counts in a wreck.

You may be smoking something because he never said the TL was SAFEST, but implied that it was SAFER than a Civic.

Take a breath, then read the numbers for yourself, to confirm what he was saying:
Civic's Safety Numbers

Acura TL's Safety Numbers

I'm afraid he's right., but the issue of swapping cars has already been settled.

TL Dude

What about keeping the TL (i think you mentioned it was paid for) and getting a (newer) used civic? Best of both worlds?

hondafan

Were not a three car family yet and the wife refuses to let me pry her fingers from the steering wheel of our MDX.

Hybrid

What an incredible amount of misinformation regarding hybrids I see posted all over the place (by no means just on this forum)...

The EPA milage reductions in a couple of years will affect all cars, not just hybrids. But the "hit" to a hybrid" will look like more. 20% of 50 mpg is 10 mpg. 20% of 30 mpg is 6 mpg. For most people (not all!), hybrids get less mpg than on the EPA sticker, but that's true of all other vehicles also, including the TL.

The battery packs are now expected to last the life of the car, and aren't something that a typical owner is going to have to have replaced. Some Prius owners are now over 300K miles with the original pack. Following hybrid forums, I just don't see any reports of people replacing battery packs. I read that Toyota said they haven't replaced any under warranty. (Or maybe that was Honda, or both of them?) The gov'ts own tests stopped at 160K when there was no degradation in battery performance by that mileage. Yes, the packs are supposed to cost $3000 or something. Ever price a TL engine or transmission at dealer MSRP? Most major parts have inflated prices, especially before anybody is actually buying them. The Civic battery pack (previous generation, I don't know about current generation) consists of 120 D-cells, essentially, all in series. 120 rechargeable D cells (NiMH) don't cost $3000, even at retail. If batteries ended up a replacement item, I suspect aftermarket companies, independent mechanics, and even owners would be replacing them.

People say to not buy a hybrid due to the incredible amount of hazardous waste involved in the batteries. See above. The battery pack is about the size of a large lead-acid battery. Somehow, the world is surviving the disposal (recycling) of lead-acid batteries, which also have nasty waste. Is the hybrid battery pack that much worse? I also suspect most individuals toss in the household trash a larger volume of batteries than there are in a hybrid pack, over the life of the hybrid pack (whatever that life turns out to be). But the same people that scream about the hybrid waste stream don't seem to notice that.

The extra cost doesn't work out over reasonable ownership periods. Yep, basically true. But also consider depreciation in the calcs. For now at least, if you sell a hybrid, you'll get most to all of the cost difference back. So how did you lost money? Try the same economic theories to see if you should buy a navigation system, or larger wheels, or A-Spec package. Do those work out economically? Might it be "OK" for a person to buy something, even a hybrid, that he/she WANTS? Does it HAVE to come down to economics? When somebody spends an extra $1000 on a dining room table, do people come out of the woodwork analyzing that decision and saying it wasn't smart in absolute dollar terms? Also, lots of people think gas prices are going nowhere but UP, and if that ends up happening, the economics will change. (Also note that hybrids tend to have long ranges between fill-ups. That's a very nice advantage even under normal driving, yet alone if there are shortages at some point).

Wouldn't buying a Civic Hybrid end up cheaper per mile than buying a TL? (I don't mean trading one for the other, but comparing buying each from scratch). So why be so hard on the Civic economics? Even if the economics don't work out, just how much is $3000 (or whatever)? Is it going to bankrupt anybody who can afford the car in the first place? Compare it to the price of a plasma TV that lots of us are buying. It's 50% more than the Navi option in the TL. How much interest do people that finance TLs (or lease them) pay to a bank or leasing company annually? In other words, basically, when spread over a few years... so what?

The Prius "100 mpg" thing was somebody's garage experiment, basically. As far as I know, there's no "kit." Definitely not one approved by Toyota. Basically, it was a whole bunch more batteries (weighing quite a bit and negatively affecting handling and acceleration times), taking up luggage space. These batteries are charged with house current. It allowed the car to drive around more on battery-only power. Then they said they could get 100 or 200 mpg. Basically, a crock. They didn't bother to include the cost of the energy required to charge the batteries, and were regarding it as free. It basically had no more validity than saying a TL gets infinite mpg when the engine is off and it is coasting downhill. Energy from the hybrid batteries and electric motor isn't really free. Some of it comes from gasoline, in direct charging of the battery, and some of it comes from energy recovered during coasting and braking. (That part IS "free" when compared to a non-hybrid car, but it IS energy that gasoline provided in the first place to get the car up to speed).

Some people warn not to buy a hybrid because the technology will have a limited life. After all, hydrogen cars will save us in a few years. When will that really be? 20 years? Even 10? Many or most of today's hybrids, TLs, etc. will be scrap by that time.

There's lots more, but this it too long already.

hondafan

Enjoyed your post

narikin

...and it really does feel quite solid (new frame construction apparently a safety plus, and it's certainly no lightweight at 2800 lbs and has only two doors and much less in the way of electric motors and leather). The TL was a highway dream cruiser, but I wanted a change, and I'm very happy with the Civic. Though it doesn't get the 40mpg of the standard models, I got better than 30 on the last highwary trip, compared to 27 in the TL, and while it's "only" got the 200 HP engine from the RSX, the engine is a screamer above 6000 (and the flashing light that comes on when you get close to the 8000+ redline is cool). I like the digital speedo, and the back seats that fold down, but it basically comes down to being more fun to drive for most of the driving I do. It's fairly safe, efficient, has the NAVI I didn't buy on the TL, and makes me smile. It doesn't feel small and unsafe to me. I sometimes miss the Bluetooth, heated seats, and automatic thermostat, but the Civic is simply more fun (and easier to park, in my garage and elsewhere). Now if i were using the backseat, it would be different with this two door coupe, but in two years of the TL, only once did I have someone ride in the back.

Apples and oranges to be sure, but I like em!

CBR1100XX

I read an article that claimed at current gas prices you would have to drive huge miles to justify the price difference between a regular Civic and a Hybrid Civic. Keeping im mind a regular Civic gets between 30 and 38 MPG. I have also heard several dealers are charging Hybrid premiums.

subinf

There is a huge backlash against people who buy hybrids. Each article that I read seems to bash the hybrid owners because they fail to see that they are not saving money, etc. People also buy hybrids to reduce the impact on the environment, not just to fill up less. Yes that is a perk but I think a stronger reason is that there is less of an impact on the environment.

ttliang

you have many good points. I only have problems with people who think they can save a lot of $$$ by buying hybrids. simply not true as you pointed out. buying hybrids for any reasons other than save $$$ is fine with me.

CBR1100XX

I would think if the desire is to save the enviroment one would be better off riding the bus. I personally take the park and ride.

hondafan

I'm keeping my TL, at least for now.

subinf

But the bus does not make a stop at the local grocery store.

CBR1100XX

The TL is not hard on the enviroment. It is all the SUV and trucks with v8 in them getting 13MPG. Honda is an extremely green company as a whole which includes all of their models.