baby_igor

I took my 2 month old 04 TL (navi/5AT) to my local shop for first oil change at 3000 miles. While up on the rack, the tech calls me over and says "Has this car been in an accident ?". I suddenly feel this is not going to be a good day, and reply "No, its only 2 months old, I got it with 8 miles on it"

He invites me to look at the car on the lift. The subframe welds look like something I would have done in high school shop class!! Also, some of the nut heads show evidence of having been torqued. We look around the car and see factory welds that are clean and uniform, but the welds in the sub frame (right below the tranny) look dirty and very non-uniform.

The tech tells me he had worked at a dealer before, and belives this could be a dealer f__kup that was patched up to be sold as new. So I'm going to the dealer now to demand to see a 04TL on a rack and compare for myself.

My to question to you is if this is a dealer botch-job, how do I get this turned around? I would expect a new car if this is all true.

Not a happy lad right now....

vp911

If you can prove that it was actually damaged before they sold it to you as NEW you can sue them. Your best bet would be to call a lemon law attorney (even though it is not a lemon case) as they would at least be able to point you in the right direction. But with only 8 miles on it, I doubt it is anything but normal from the acura factory in ohio.

I don't have a TL yet, but I am sure the other people on the board wouldnt mind looking at the same issue on theirs to compare to.

Good luck

PA-TL

Well I'm no lawyer, but if it's not factory and you purchased a "new" car you have legal recourse. If you can send some pix, I'll look mine over too for comparison.

Good luck and fight the good fight!

JDM5lugHatch

Well things do happen at dealerships or while on test drives. So there is a possibility that it was damaged and repaired without your knowledge. However, Don't demand to see one on the lift right away go look at one from the ground at the dealership first. Also maybe get an expert (Body Shop that has worked on a new TL) opinion as it should be free to look at it. Then if there is evidence of an accident that was not disclosed at the time of purchase be very professional and make your demands. As a back-up have a lawyer on stand by that knows the situation (get advice from him too).

I know the dealership where I bought my car had a Tl on the lot that was damaged. Apparently the driver was unloading the cars and didn't double check the ramps or something like that and backed up right into a lowered ramp on the truck. The car had 2 huge crush marks right on the trunk lid. So things do happen that they don't necessarily have to disclose to you. I believe they have to tell you only if the vehicle had frame damage. Do your homework first though. Seems you get more being professional and not getting pissed off rather than going in with an attitude and making demands. Good Luck!

GTFISH

They need and must disclose any damage over a certain trivial amount ($500, i think).


http://lawschool.mikeshecket.com/civpro/11-10-03.htm

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...s/517/559.html

rets

Our member, need4spd, ever shot some "under" pics. If no one posts, I'll upload those pics at night. So, baby_igor, you could compare those with yours, and let us know the difference.


We were shocking with those pics last Oct.

cvajs

how would a dealer damage the subframe (or have a car like such)?? if it had only 8 miles on it then i'm guessing it was a bad day for the welding robot for that part.

i too would like to see pics.

baby_igor

Thanks for all the ideas. I'm running out to Thanksgiving, but will get pix when I get back and post for all.

hopsdevil

I too have very ugly apparently hand welded welds on my sub-frame. I can see them when looking down between the radiator fans and the engine. I assumed they were "normal". Also the sub frame seems to be aluminum. Has anyone else noticed this in their TL? Just open the hood and look down at the frame.

cvajs

TL is front heavy, so they needed to shave some weight off where they could. Aluminum is also "seen" in the TL's price.

My guess is, the welds were done by a MIG machine as opposed to a TIG machine. MIG usually leaves slag and is hard to do on Aluminum (even with a AC MIG). a dead giveaway if it was MIG is to find any short pieces of 0.030" diameter AL wire stuck in a weld somewhere.

rets

These are from 04 TL SSM Auto Navi Early-build... While seeing those pics, we all expected Acura would do better in later build TLs...

From need4spd



















There are more here if you're interested....

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/rsx-r-63251/

cvajs

yep, those are MIG welds. with so many TL's being made it would be hard to hand weld all the welds for all of the cars. i'll check mine to see if welds start/end smoothly and that their paths are continuous. those pics look like hand welds, but a robot that was programmed late may produce the same looking welds (AL requires dwell at the start of a weld to heat "pool" the metal before moving the gun).

now, to analyze the baby_igor issue, the weldor would have had to remove all that aluminum from the car in order to make smooth non-dripping welds (welding overhead is very difficult and if done by a non-certified un-experienced weldor the "overhead" part would show in the weld). i don't know how easy it would be to remove, but if it was there would be signs of the removal.

cvajs

what is this pic? is that exhaust to head or manifold??

need4spd

Rets is correct, I never took down any of my photos at image station.

If you follow rets link, you will find high res shots taken with a 3megapixel camera 3 days after I got the car. The photos were taken just to show the underside details in general, not for the frame.

Everyone at Vtec (where it was first posted) was amazed at the frame photos and debate ensued, and thought it was a prototype frame, but it sounds like they have not done any better with the welds, but who cares, it is under the car, and not meant to look good, just functional.

Rets, you can post my photos anytime to help the forum members!

need4spd

CVAJS - I went back to the original photos as the title shows where it is, it says that it is "2004 tl underside comming off first cat". So, I would say that is the exhaust pipe comming off the first cat, prior to the Y pipe joining the two cylinder banks.

Here is another angle (it is the pipe closest to the front of the car):




EDIT

for some reason the link is not working, this is the same image as the first one in rets post above

consultauto

My 04 tl and the 05 tl loaner that i am driving both have the same welds. I would not worry about the vehicle being damaged because the subframe is a bolt on component, if it were damaged they would simply replace the subframe.

ONAGER

thats how mine looks.... either its normal or alot of cars got damaged in transport

pettydw

The subframe welds on my car look crappy and would never pass inspection for aerospace use, but hopefully my car will never achive altitude nor exceed the sound barrier. They look like something I have done on my 110 volt mini-MIG.

The subframe should be designed for stiffness and not stress, so hopefully the welds will hold for the typical 8 years I keep a car.