LogansRun

Great forum and very entertaining content here, I am also considering a TL and am curious if the car has a chain drive (no maintenance) or a belt driving the cam shafts.. Obviously I am hoping for a chain as it would require no future maintenance expenses and better (worry free) reliability. I could not fing this anywhere in the literature on the car. Anyone out there who might know ? Thanks for your help, I am very close to pulling the trigger on one of these beauties ! LogansRun

Road Rage

It is a belt - but you are overstating the liabilities of a belt, and ignoring its benefits. A belt is quieter than a chain, and performs ideally over its lifetime. It is easily inspected for wear - millions are in use today, and even on cars where the maintenance has been less than perfect, the belts go many more miles than they are rated. They used to be 60k rated, now go 90-100k with only an inspection now and then. Belts only require reliable and simple pulleys.

Chains are noisy, and stretch over time - I have worked on cars where the chain's tension varied so much, that cam timing would vary - losing power and causing driveability issues. A chain can jump a link, jump a sprocket, etc. Plus, sprockets themselves are complicated. Roller chains and better design and mfg have improved them tremendously, but the old adage is true - chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

My S2000 has a chain, but it is exotic in design, very well lubricated, and short, since it drives only one bank of cylinders (I-4).

My NSX had a belt. Honda knows engines, and picks what it thinks is best for the application. I think you are taking a near-sighted approach if this is a primary issue in your car buying.

Belt or chain, a zero interference engine is in deep sheep-dip if its cam drive breaks - bye bye short block.

Anyway, you have your answer - hope it is helpful to you.

LogansRun

Thanks Road Rage, it sounds as if you know your engine architecture pretty well ! I haven't considered the issues you presented but it paints a very different picture of what I was always led to believe, and it calms my nerves about the belt vs chain debate. I suppose I've heard of a few horror stories of belts breaking more frequently and making mince soup out of valvetrains, which has stuck with me over the years.... I do appreciate your keen insight, and you have helped me place this in the "non issue" category for concern !!! I seem to recall you have a Deep Green Pearl /Camel.. this is the exact combo I am considering.. any regrets ?? LogansRun

mason1125

If you want a chain, try TSX.

1FasTL

But do be aware, the engine IS of an "interference design". I.E. - if the belt breaks, the pistons WILL collide with the valves and it will be major expense to repair. Belts may be rated to 100K+ but I will still change mine out at 60K - 80K regardless of what Honda or the MID says. A little maintenance will save a lot of heartache, pain, and expense down the road (as well as being left stranded when it may not be convenient - especially if the wife happens to be driving when it lets go )

tlguy99

try the black market forum. you will probably get more responses. BTW, I thought the SC wasn't out yet? Did you get a preproduction setup?

avs007

Depends on the engine. Just because it's belt driven does not automatically make it quieter than a chain driven engine. Some chain driven engines are actually quite novel, in that the gears are designed such that each sproket on each row of teeth engage/disengage at a precise moment such that all the vibration/noise is mathematically cancelled out.

Assuming belt driven engines are quieter is like me trying to say the 4.1 litre straight 6 in the Chevy Trailblazer is smoother than the 60 degree V6 in the Acura TL, because straight 6 engines are the optimal configuration for a 6 cylinder engine.

92NSX

I changed my belt on my GS-R at 95k miles. It didn't break but rather I wanted to have piece of mind with it.
It is a little harder to inspect the belt on my NSX however. It is highly advised that you change it on the prescribed time/mileage frame. You don't even want to get into the repair $$ of that engine.

fsttyms1

agreed.
both are just as likely to break. chains ARE noisier, just as much can happen with chain drives.
as for worring about belts. i have a 88 prelude with 270k on the original belt. i had a civic with 130k on the original belt. my TL has 162k on the original belt. i have inspected it and its fine. could it all of asudden break? sure! could a new on too? yes.

92NSX

Braver soul than I for sure.

Legend2TL

From the http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...36167&mime=asc website

Technical information for the Accord

"The i-VTEC engine is crowned by a compact, lightweight cylinder head made of pressure-cast aluminum alloy. Its 4-valve-per-cylinder design has double overhead camshafts activated by a silent chain drive to ensure extremely precise control of the cam phasing. The cam drive is maintenance-free throughout the life of the engine. "



Very important for timing belts is that is replacement is age and mileage dependent. I have not seen any official guidelines from Honda but I've heard 6 years or 90K miles for lastest generation models whatever comes first.

Shoot2Thrill

How long does the water pump typically last because often that acts as the driver to changing the belt since it typically must be removed anyway.

Legend2TL

You do not have to remove the water pump on most vehicles to change the timing belt. But since timing belts are difficult to get to, it makes sense to just replace the water pump when you are doing a belt replacement.

I've changed ~15 timing belts mostly on Honda's and Acura's. Typically the water pump uses the timing belt for drive (only on Prelude Si and Supra did the water pump not run off the timing belt).

The majority of the time I change the water pump as a precaution since it is not easy to get to normally. I've only ever replaced a water pump/timing belt once due to a water pump failure (seal failed), the rest of the time the weep hole was dry but it's good insurance.

A neighbor two new gen Accord (2003 and 2004) with the timing chain, I'll have to look into the engine bay and see how the water pump gets it's drive.

Legend2TL

I didn't answer your original question.

Water pumps typically don't last the life of a vehicle, but 100K+ miles is a resonable life as long as good (non-Prestone) anti-freeze is used and changed on or before the recommended service interval.

Road Rage

All eng'g is a Bell Curve - you are on the happy side of it, but your luck could run out at anyy time. Yes, a new belt could break, but it is always covered by the original warranty, and many mfrs guarantee a belt replacement if they install it even after the warranty has long expired.

I always replace the water pump at the same time - the coolant should be non-abrasive, such as Honda Type 2 or equivalent. BASF yellow G-5 spec (Ford Premium Gold) is also good as long as one flushes all the Honda coolant out. Considering how cheap Honda fluid is, relative to the popssible damage the wrong cooloant can do, i cannot see cheaping out on this element of maintenance.

I am sure I have a ""RR Journal" reference posting at s2ki.com in the 3G Garage on Coolants - everuthing you ever wanted to know......

pettydw

Chains have been the problem with Honda motorcycles (their racing bikes and previous generation VFR's had gear driven cams) and chains definitely wear over time. The belts stretch initially, then do not change over life. I have never seen a "broken" timing belt. What happens is the teeth shear off and the belt skips enough to cause problems (can be expensive). I agree with RoadRage in that you should always change a timing belt driven water pump with the belt. Also, this is the perfect opportunity to change the thermostat (a $10 part that can result in $1000's of repairs when it fails).

JerryG

So what can one conclude by Honda making a point of highlighting "maint-free chain" vs their use of a (maint required) belt in the TL?

What about the same question RE SOHC vs DOHC? In other words, why did the above engine design (as well as the NSX v-6) use DOHC, but the TL use SOHC? (other than simply cost).

pettydw

If you are very good about chaining the engine oil with synthetic and do not rev the engine much, the chain may never need attention in 250K miles. However, anyone that has a motorcycle can tell you 150 mph blasts stretch the drive chains substantially compared to boring 80 mph stuff. Chains are heavy, stretching and wearing significantly at high rev's due to increased engine load and centrifugal force. The chains, sporkets, and tensioner blocks all wear out about evenly and all require replacement at the same time. On most belt applications, only the belt needs replacing (an exception - Fiat's also wear out belt pulley's).

Numerous pushrod GM cars have had chain & sprocket issues in the 100K mile range and those chains are very short. Porsche 911's also have timing chain issues. The only good thing about chains is they tend to send warnings (chains slapping engine cases) to observant drivers before they skip time.