purplpaul

I got my TL deposit back today, and bought a 2004 Accord V6 w/ Nav. I think I got a good deal (a few hundred above invoice), and with some extras (rear deck lid and wood trim), it all came to just under $29000 everything included. I estimate the TL would have cost me $35,500 + tax & tags = $37,750. So overall, my reasoning for giving in, and getting the Accord.
1. That's around $8750 savings for me (bid diffence).
2. Accord is kind of similar to the new TL feature-wise, and bigger.
3. I have a 1997 Acura CL already (which is kind of sporty).
4. I'm going to be repacing my CL in 2 years probably (maybe I can get an upscale sporty car then).
5. In all honesty, as much as I'm excited about the new TL, I don't know if a. trip-tronic, b. super stereo, c. quiet and more luxurios, d. memory seats, e. handsfree phone, f. better handling is worth over $8500 to me right now. Value-wise, the 2004 TL is no 2003 TL!

Anyways, just wanted to say I only came across this board a couple months ago, but ever since I've been checking it everyday (several times sometimes) scavenging for new bits of 2004 TL info .. and have had a lot of fun doing it! I'm a little bit disappointed I won't be driving a new TL, like many of you will be in a few weeks. Anyway, it really has been great reading all your messages these last few weeks. Good luck, and goodbye to you all for now ... I have a Honda Accord board to find somewhere! (not!)

Paul

p.s. they'll be red/parchment auto TL w/ Nav available at Davis Acura in PA in the next couple days if any of you are interested (for oct delivery)

EmuMessenger

Congratulations! Got an EX-V6-Navi for my wife last year and so far, so good. 13k miles and no rattles or problems.

The navigation system kicks buttocks. Wish it had xenon lights.

Love the storage for 15 CD's in the jewel case.

Enjoy!

BTW, I bought my 03 TLS-Navi at Davis.

Raheel

What color Accord did you get?

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

Nice choice. I got the accord myself. I love it!

EmuMessenger

If you were asking me, NBP.

Raheel

I was asking both of you

Maxim

Smart dude, that Paul. See Honda's dilemma? Make the TL too expensive and guys like Paul would defect (not really since he bought an Accord). But you get the drift. Higher prices give people pause. If like he says, you might end up paying as much as $37K out the door, that is BMW 525 territory almost. Snob appeal run amok is why people buy Bimmers, reliability problems and all. Honda, get real!!!

neuronbob

I'd thought at one point a few months ago about the new Accord, but decided I liked my TL better. The AV6/navi is a nice car, though, one of my buddies has one and loves it.

purplpaul

I got black with the ivory interior. I have to say the color choices/combos for the Accord are very limited. Ivory interiors only come in white, gold, green and black. I would have preferred a red/ivory or blue/ivory.

maddtl

Usually, Honda and Acura postion their lineup correct. I don't think they positioned everything correct.

- The S2000 should have 280hp, to compete with the Nissans.
- Accord is perfect, almost too perfect, takes away from TL.
- RSX should have 240hp from the S2000
- TSX, which is more expensive than an Accord but only has a 4 cylinder...it doesn't make any sense. It should at least have the V6 with 240 hp.
- TL should be more prestigious...too similar to the Accord in so many ways...XM, navigation, climate control, heated seats, look, etc! I wish they would have had 280hp!

MADD

VtecMW

The TL and Accord are not meant to be cross-shopped. Yeah, the last gen offered a lot for tremendous value, making the decision to buy much easier. With the new TL going up in price, of course there are going to be some consumers who are going to move to lower cost options, e.g. TSX and Accord. The ability to cross-shop the TL and Accord only hurts the TL's ability to sell. IMO, it's good that Honda created some distance between the two models.

Honda doesn't lose anything by having a buyer shift from the TL to Accord. They still make money, albeit not as much. And, with the TL going up in price, Acura doesn't lose anything, because the TSX now fills the value gap occuped by the previous gen TL.

Honda's concern should be to make sure that the TL competes strongly in its segment and still offers exceptional value relative to BMW and Audi.

VtecMW

If Honda puts a 240 HP V6 in the TSX who would buy the TL? It would blur the lines between the two cars entirely too much.

The Accord and TL do not look alike. It's really a stretch to say that they do. Making the TL more prestigious would probably negatively impact its ability to sell.

Saintor

It is NOT a 8000$ difference when you have considered the resale value. But funny part is that our Accord is sold as the upscale sedan in Asia (Honda Inspire).

Maxim

"The TL and Accord are not meant to be cross-shopped." Well, tell that to Paul, who bought the Accord.

"Honda doesn't lose anything by having a buyer shift from the TL to Accord. They still make money, albeit not as much." Yes, Honda makes money at the expense of Acura. Why even have a separate division called Acura if you are going to kill it off yourself?

"Honda's concern should be to make sure that the TL competes strongly in its segment and still offers exceptional value relative to BMW and Audi." And compete it does in every respect. Other than price. People who buy Acura think they are getting a substantial car at a sensible price. People who buy Bimmers and Audi think they are getting a substantial car, period. Make the cars cost the same, and you might as well buy a Bimmer or Audi, reliability problems and all. Put the Acura and the BMW side by side and the prestige goes to the Bimmer, and the value to the Acura. Make them the same price, and guess what? Anyone with that cash to spare will buy the Bimmer.

The TSX is a great value and so should the TL.

Sparky

I'm not sure how many TL owners will opt for the TSX if the '04TL is priced too high for them. Many will *not* want a smaller car with a 4 cylinder engine.

huskerfan

Agree...but many (like myself) might opt for the Accord EX V6 coupe that has many of the same features, a great Nav unit, and is now offering the 6 speed for the performance oriented driver. I have a 98 EX V6 coupe and I love it. My wife is driving a 2003 TL Type "S" and I like that even more. However, if the 2004 TL is priced too high, I may buy a 2004 Accord EX V6 Coupe w/Nav for a few hundred over invoice and save a bundle. It gets better mileage, runs on regular, and with the 240 HP engine has very good performance. I don't know if I am typical but I'd bet there are a lot of Honda fans that will cross shop the TL against the Accord if the TL is too pricey.

Raheel

Ya, I would never buy the TSX, If I couldn't afford the 04TL..

But the TSX has awesome handling, and i-Vtec engine..

TL has so many features that its not even funny, Features and small things are what makes a luxury brand, you can compare a TL and Accord all you want, but IMO all those features, betterlook, bluetooth, 6speed, better suspension, bodykit, DVD-A, 8 in. Navigation..etc..etc..etc.... make the car worth more for the people that are willing to afford it...

neuronbob

If I couldn't afford the new TL, I'd just keep my '02, which I'm quite satisfied with. I'm upgrading because the features (and looks) are so compelling to me that it's worth it.

purplpaul

Here's my theory having owned a couple Honda/Acura products myself, and having talked three family close friends into buying second- gen TL's.

The problem (as Honda sees it) ... Acura is not regarded as being in the same class as the other luxury brands. They're certainly not as 'premium' as Lexus, BMW, Infiniti, or Mercedes. And the MAJOR contributing factor to this perception is PRICE.

Acura cars offer incredible value, but pyschologically, mainly b/c of they're cheaper, their reputation is slighted a bit, and Acura cars are regarded as "near-luxury." People who spend luxury money (more than $35,000 I'd say) think AND believe they are getting something more simply by spending $5000 extra for a Lexus ES300. Seriously, many in my family buy luxury cars, and I can assure you of one thing, they are all car idiots! I know a few luxury owners who are very knowledgable about their cars, but I think like 90% couldn't care less except for the fact they bought "a Lexus" or Mercedes or BMW (slightly smarter crowd) or even Infiniti.

The 2003-2004 Honda Accord is so good of a car, honestly, I think it will capture almost all of the old second-generation TL market (those willing to spend around $30,000). Most of those buyers are people that are very value-conscience. In the old days, they'd prefer to spend $25,000 for a car (like an Accord or Camry), but they got so much more for just another $5000 in an 2002 TL, they figured what the heck, I'll extend myself a bit, and bought a TL. I don't think the 2004 TL was made necessarily for those type of buyers.

Acura wants to redefine their reputation .. they want to be a luxury label, not just near-luxury. Honda, frankly, has taken over as a near-luxury label. Acura wants to compete directly with BMW and the like. And so the new 2004 TL is priced $33,000-$35,000, has upgraded luxury, comfort, and performance .. and will appeal to a new segment of buyers, "those expecting to spend $35,000+", not just those "hoping to spend around $30,000 or less." I think with the richer (and not necessarily value-driven) clientelle, Acura's brand reputation WILL improve, and Acura will become a fell-fledged luxury label (especially if the new RL is much improved as well).

BOTTOMLINE (for those that don't care to the read above long-winded comments).
The old days ... Honda was the "value" label, Acura was the "near-luxury" label.
The future .. Honda will be the "near-luxury" label, Acura will be a full-fledged "luxury w/performance" label (almost exactly like BMW, I think they're hoping).

And for those (especially me) who feel left out and complain because we can no longer afford an Acura, we just have to realize these are the growing pains that will inevitably go along with Acura growing up into a proper luxury brand. If we want to stay aboard, we need to go get better jobs, and be prepared to drop some more cash!

Overall, I think its a very good strategy, people shouldn't complain so much about 2004 TL pricing. If you want a 'luxury' car, you have to pay for it, and the 2004 TL still represents a great value compared to others in the luxury segment. Near-luxury buyers who want to spend less can buy an Accord.

Just my theory.

Paul

huskerfan

FYI > The Accord EX V6 Coupe has a 6 speed and a body kit available. Voice Operated Nav is optional (as on the TL) but XM radio is standard. In addition, the Accord with the 240 HP V6 is about 200 lbs lighter than the TL so the performance will be just as good or better. Granted the TL has more luxury, but will it be enough to justify the price differential over a loaded Accord.

Raheel

Makes total sense

neuronbob

I agree with you too, Paul, except that I (being a "car guy") already considered Acura a luxury brand. Acura's problem is that it needs to convince more people that it is. The new TL seems to be a great way to do that. Luckily for me, I can certainly afford $35k and, having tasted the TL in the past, am willing to pay for quality.

Maxim

What does it profit a carmaker to gain "luxury" status and lose sales? Nothing. Pre-2004 TLs sold very well 'cause you see them everywhere. I don't know the figures, but they sold more of them than in the previous first generation/Acura Vigor brand. If it is too expensive, I see Acura not only losing market share to the BMW/Audi crowd, but to Lexus/Infiniti as well, particularly if the IS 300 is updated and enlarged.

Just look at the competition: Lexus IS300/ES 330, BMW 330/525, Infiniti G35, Audi A4 3.0/A6, MB230/240, Jaguar X-Type, Saab 9-3, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S-60, and maybe, even the Nissan Maxima or Lincoln LS. Tough crowd, huh? So how do you distinguish yourself? Stick to the thing you do well. Identify your niche and defend it vigorously. Which Acura had done until now. Overprice the TL and those other cars begin to look more appealing. Throw in a few incentives and they look really appealing.

purplpaul

If you sell half the volume of cars, but make double the profit per car ... you end up with the same revenue. The second-gen TL's were selling close to invoice, and I think invoice was only $1000-$2000 over manufacturing cost (btw, many Saturns retail at only $500 above manufacturing cost, typical SUV at least $5000 above manufacturing cost - many around $10k and above). Anyway, high volume doesn't mean high profit .. there's no correlation. High profit is a function of profit per car (selling price - manufacturing cost). Just take a look at Mercedes and BMW; they certainly don't do high volume, and they still manage to make alot of money.

larrynimmo

I fell in love with the 2004 TL...almost went to a dealer and placed a deposit to buy one...but when the talk of 32, 33, 34K came into being, and the fact that dealers will sell this car for MSRP for many months....coupled with the reduction of price on the 2003, I went and bought a 2003 for 25.4K in the color I wanted. I feel so far ahead by getting one. For 8K difference in price I'll take the 2003. I have a friend who sells Hondas and he offered me a 2003 Accord EX V-6 240 HP for 23.1K...but for the 2K difference, I think the Acura has more features and is a better value.

Raheel

The Acura has more features?

The Accord have voice activated Navi, and the only thing TL still has is memory seats, HID's and couple other things..

I myself would never buy a Accord, but I would not buy a Brand new Car that will be outdated in one month..

Nothing wrong with your choice Just My Opinion.

lovemyTL

Finally a guy that knows the econ of revenue. Why does everyone think that lower sales = lower profit?!?! Or lower sales = the demise of the TL or Acura? I'm sure Acura is thinking bigger picture - not let's increase sales on the TL but who cares about their other cars. If they can successfully touch every portion of the market to their forecast (up to the RL), so be it. They have other cars, not just the TL.

And to the guy who got the accord - must better buy at this point. Good chance acura will not budge on msrp. Besides - look how much more money you got!!

Raheel

Acura's new Slogan, "Fk the bargain getters, and lets get the guys with wadds of cash, so Our name goes up in name"

Raheel

Also if you look at the TSX, it looks overpriced, but they sell enough of them, and Acura makes tons of money by importing a Honda and changing couple things..

This way the car stays mroe rare and you feel more special and feel more prestigous..

Most people buy TSX because not everyone and there mom has it..

Maxim

If that be the case, Honda can simply make less Accords and hike up their prices and still make the same profit margin. I think they risk losing market share when they price themselves out of it. Market share is also important to them. They also lose the repeat buyer who will waltz toward a more affordable alternative. Since there are fewer moneyed people that's hardly a pool worth pursuing.

Raheel

well think of it this way..

The Company makes high volume cheap cars, while its luxury counterpart sells less volume at higher prices, making it rare and prestigous..

seotaiji

Anyway, if you driven 2003 EX Coupe 6MT, the experience is pleasure and awesome. Nice car, I felt lot better than my 2002 TL and better suspension overall better than TL-S. The Navi works great 8" Monitor, seating is nice and leather wrapped. I'm sure you can get it for 27K or less. 29k would be expensive. TL would be more luxury, maybe compare with BMW 525/530/ A6. Accord I would have to compare with 325.

1SICKLEX

I agree with some good points here and not others. Honda's HUGE problem is they make their ACCORD so damn good, why buy an Acura? The ACCORD is a better car than the RL for instance. THE TL/CL is based off the ACCORD. THe ACCORD coupe killed CL sales. The interior of the ACCORD is just as nice as any ACura (both have fake wood, why buy an Acura?). Both offer most of the same features. They always look similar in exterior appearance.

It's not a bad problem per-se but Acura at least was on par with Infiniti and though Infiniti is still a 2nd tier luxury brand, Acura is now behind them (Infinit's new product on-slaught).
No RWD, No V-8, No real wood, these are luxury car basics.
No luxury car status.
It is CLEAR Acura has no intentions of trying to compete which is fine. They will stay in their niche and be a great company for those Honda owners that want to stay with the Honda family and want a little more prestige and better dealer service.

I must admit, cars are becoming so WELL BUILT and with BMW and Benz and Jaguar going down-market, lines are blurring between what is and what is not luxury.

Raheel

You guys are comparing the Accord to a old gen.. The old gen has been out for 5 years, compare Accord to something built with current technology..

The Accord does not have 8 in navi (NOT POSITIVE), while 04TL does..

And I dont think u can get a 6speed Accord w/ navi for under 29k, I think they are going msrp cuz of the demand..

amdmaxx

good choice for wife, personally 29k buys me STi..

VtecMW

I don't think it takes RWD and a V8 to be certified as having a true luxury sedan. Now if we were talking having a true luxury 'performance' sedan, then I think a case could be made.

I think refinement, features, exceptional performance and a relatively distinguished appearance is the formula for a (near) luxury sedan. If all this can be achieved without investing in the R&D to develop a RWD platform, why bother? True, the Accord is so good that people don't feel a need to buy an Acura. But, what about the Infiniti, Audi and BMW owners?

While Honda's knock may be positioning a FWD sedan against a RWD sedan, it's not like the other luxury marques can't be knocked for their own shortcomings, pricey, poor quality and reliability, cost of ownership. Sure, some of have come close to perfecting the luxury car formula, but no one is perfect. Ask BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Lexus owners who purchased their cars because its RWD, and if that's because RWD offered better performance. You might get a handful of people who answer yes to both.

Acura has never claimed to offer the "The ultimate driving machine". We also have to remember that Acura isn't exactly hurting when it comes to sales of the TL. With the definition of luxury becoming so blurred, and high end marques moving downmarket, does it have to offer the ultimate? Or is it enough for it come reasonably close?

Maxim

Maybe I am wrong, but I did not think that prestige was the goal of Acura. If it is, that is not it's strong point. The strong point is Honda reliability at a sensible price. It is an issue of perception, but Acura has not been around that long to begin thinking like MB, Audi and BMW. Those are the premium brands. They do not have Honda quality, but buyers of these brands do not care. They can afford to fix problems. But if Acuras start to cost as much as these cars, the owners are not going to say "hmmm, now that the TL costs $36K, I'll forsake the Bimmer." No way they are going to do that. They are still going to buy the Bimmer. So what happens to the traditional Acura buyer? The sensible buyer who knows they are getting really good value? Well, they have been priced out and will beat a path to other brands like Infiniti, which, while not an Acura, still has a lot going for it.

huskerfan

I called a free buying service that used to be associated with SAM's clubs. They had a local dealer call me and he said he would sell me a 2004 Accord for 3% over invoice. All I specified when I talked to the buying service is I wanted a 2004 Accord EX V6 Coupe. I didn't say Auto or Manual and it didn't appear to make any difference to the dealer. You may be right on the size of the Nav screen. I checked the Honda web site and couldn't find out the size of the Nav screen. I think the older ones were 7 inches but I don't know if the 2004's increased to 8. The 2004 Accords do have many of the same features (dual A/C, heated seats, tilt/telescoping wheel, etc.

purplpaul

Before we judge the 2004 TL to be "not worth the price," let's wait for it to be released, wait for the real reviews, wait for the marketing, and wait for the price!
I don't think we can make any legitimate judgement based just on press releases and internet pictures.
If the car is well-received by the media and general population, wins some awards, wins some car-comparison reviews, many of you may find yourselves redefining what you consider a 'good value.'

Sundance CL-S

Before I purchased my ’01 CL-S, my dealer let me take it home over a weekend. I used this opportunity to do my own comparison test. I drove it to the Honda, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity dealerships. With the Accord and CL sitting next to each other I was able to compare the details inside and out. I noticed a difference in the fit & finish of the interior, a quieter ride and a few options not available on the Accord (memory seats/mirrors, heated seats/mirrors, etc.). To me these differences were worth the price.

Furthermore, after purchasing my CL-S and my wife’s MDX, I can tell you there is a huge difference in the service I receive between Honda and Acura. For those who have owned both, you know what I’m talking about. I’ve owned 5 Hondas and 3 Acuras, and I’d much rather go to an Acura service department.

My advice when car shopping is to narrow it down to a couple of cars and compare them next to each other. There is a difference that you can’t see in a brochure or on a website.

Chris