mickey3c

Tires make a whole lot of differece as you know first hand... And this goes for any car or drive setup...

Ga_Tech_TL

Um im gonna get back to what i said earlier. RWD>>> FWD in all conditions. RWD cant et oujt of the drive way or the garage in the winter. NOt to mention how slippery and all over it can be on wet roads. Same thing could happen to FWD but not likely. AWD is the best obviously

Tunerman

Really? What do you think all those cars had in the early 70s and back? RWD cars. They all got around just fine.

I have driven in the SNOW in new mexico in my 04 G35. It does just fine even with the sport GS-D tires. The LSD and traction system make a huge difference. I have owned mostly FWD cars and one AWD Audi. And will tell you that the Audi was the best in WET weather, but also the heaviest and the slowest. The 2nd best is the G35 in all conditions. My FWD cars were scary in the wet.

shodog

How do all those RWD crown victoria taxi cabs manage to get around in the snow?

Ga_Tech_TL

um... dude i dont know where u live but driving in the city is totally differnt from driving in CT. We dont supply hundreds of snow plowers plowing 24/7 and there are always so many cars in the city and that means that the road will be stickier rather than icy. BTW, most cars in the sidewalks cant move bc of the snow and the fact that their cars wont even move. The cabs cant survive outside of the city.

Ga_Tech_TL

U ever try going uphill on snow or icy on a rwd? NOt even an enzo could do that. Well i mean from a stop of course

03TL-S

Havent had any torque steer lately? FWD cars with power like the TL always have torque steer regardless. If you drive like a granny, then theres no torque steer, if you floor it alot, then its always apparent.

Tunerman

Neither could a FWD car.

Ga_Tech_TL

Really? My Honda accord did. While my M3 couldnt even get out of the driveway. If u think that RWD drives better in the snow or rain than FWD then ur just crazy. FWD will not exist then

Donte99TL

Tunerman There is a logical reason why front wheel drive cars are better in the snow.

With a front wheel drive car the motors weight is right over the wheels that are doing the pulling. Thus helping the tires get better traction. It’s basic common sense

That same theory is also one of the TL’s down falls in the handling department. Acura can’t obtain that optimal 50/50 weight balance that is important in a good handling car.

shodog

Doesn't look like the driving is too different in Connecticut because even your own state police use Crown Vics also.

EZZ

I'm also willing to bet that your Honda accord probably had all seasons vs your M3 which most likely had performance tires. BIG difference. Basically, G35 with snow tires > Acura TL with all-seasons in snow. Tires make so much difference...

AustNMike

why do threads always have to turn into opinion battles? someone's always gotta tell somebody else that they're wrong...

back on topic, I owned a 2001 TL and my girl still drives an 01 CL....I went with a 03 G35 coupe 6MT after all the tranny problems with the Acuras purely for the reliability factor....6 months later, I am looking to sell the G and go with a 3rd gen TL...purely for the ride factor.....my opinion is that the G is by far the performance machine out of the two, but the TL is the most all-round, practical, comfortable, reliable, "total package" buy of the two...and not all of that has to do with FWD or RWD....

Donte99TL

AustNMike it's a forum, would you expect anything less

avs007

So what happens when you hit the brakes? What about when you try to turn? You're going to be asking the front wheels to accelerate/decelerate, and steer at the same time. There is only a finite amount of grip that has to be shared.

FWD has a tendency to plow. Add bad weather to that, and it will have even more tendency to plow, because bad road conditions amplify driving dynamics.

With that being said, I'm not going to argue one is better than the other, as it really depends. But I do have some anecdotal stories:

One time in my FWD Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, wearing UltraHighPerformance All-season tires... I took a freeway 360 degree onramp at 45mph (in the rain), and the back slid out. (I've taken that ramp at 50mph in the dry without problems).

It scared the crap out of me It was very difficult to regain control, as every time I corrected, the back end would swing the other way . After about 3-4 corrections, everything was back to normal.

I took this exact same onramp with my G35 during the test-drive when I was looking at the car. Salesman told me to get in the outside lane, and to punch it, and pass all the cars. It was raining lightly at the time, but I thought nothing of it, since he told me to do it. So I punched it, and took that same curve at 60mph, and the back end didn't even come loose .

Now fast forward a bit, and now I have the car with UltraHighPerformance All/Seasons, just like the GTP. I was being crazy/stupid, and while passing a truck, forgot my lane ends. So I ended up taking a 35mph curve at about 80mph. The back end came loose, I scared the crap out of myself, as I was on a "mountain road". However, before I could say holy sh.., I was able to correct and do a power-slide through the curve , without even leaving my lane.

Now my GTP and TL are vastly different handling wise, but when I took a similar curve too fast, there was no correction you could do, as I was just headed straight into the ditch. All I could do was slam on the brakes and pray. Luckily I slowed down enough to make that turn

Now before you guys think I'm some crazy maniac driver or something, it's not like I did all these things back to back, on one crazy weekend

Ga_Tech_TL

I see so we have to get into tire performances now? WEll then my friends 12 year old volvo with snow tires would drive better in the snow than my aspec TL. Of crouse... but in terms of the cars themselves (with same tires), the FWD will drive safer and better.

Donte99TL

First off you are saying the front tires have to do three things at the same time. They have to accelerate/decelerate, and steer. But in all actuality they can only do two of them at any given time. You can’t accelerate/decelerate at the same time so you can either accelerate and steer or decelerate and steer.

Second, out of all four tires on a front wheel drive car in the snow which ones will have the most grip? The front tires because of the weight of the engine. So out all four of those tires which ones would you want doing your accelerate/decelerate, and steering. The front tires because they have the most grip.

Third, you said “FWD has a tendency to plow” which is correct but you are forgetting one thing here. When does a car start to experience plow? Do they plow at slow or normal driving speeds? No. Do they plow at higher speeds? Yes. In most cases you would only experience plow when on a race track or driving really crazy on the streets.

Now, when driving in the snow at what speeds will you be driving at? I hope to god you aren’t going fast. Everyone I know drives sloooooow in snow. Would you ever get plow at slow speeds? I think you already know the answer to that.

Wow you took a 35mph curve at 80mph and power slid through the turn without even leaving your lane. You should get into some of those drifting competitions

Also when in a front wheel drive car that has the back end coming out on you……. the last thing you want to do is slam on the breaks. All that would have done is help the back end come around even more. Slamming on the break will cause all the weight to transfer forward. Thus causing the rear end to get light and loosing even more traction on the rear tires.

This may sound crazy but if you have been to any of the high performance driving schools this is one of the techniques they will teach you.

The short story is when the back end starts to break loose and come around. Point the front wheels in the direction you want to go and punch it. The front wheels will pull the car straight and through the turn.

Also always look where you want to go. Look through the turn and where you want the car to go. There is this thing called target fixation. You think oh god I am going to hit that guard rail and you focus on it and you end up hitting it.

Donte99TL

It’s funny that avs007 says his Ultra High Performance All-season tires helped him in the rain. He would have been better off with an Ultra High Performance summer tire for rain. This is from tirerack.com

Ultra High Performance All-Season tires were developed for the drivers who require some traction in slush and light snow, yet still want to retain as much dry and wet traction, handling and steering response as possible. But while the Ultra High Performance All-Season tire category name appears to promise that these tires will be the best possible combination (ultra high performance in All-Seasons), in reality they have to be the most compromised. The Ultra High Performance All-Season tires' ability to perform well in All-Seasons reduces their ability to excel in any one season.

For example, most drivers know that Ultra High Performance All-Season tires can't match the dry road performance of Ultra High Performance "summer" tires. Some even realize that typically the Ultra High Performance All-Season tire's wet traction is compromised to deliver slush and snow traction, and that the "summer" tires will actually provide more traction in wet conditions. Don't believe this? If you review the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW report which tested the same size tires as this report, you'll see that in the wet, the slowest Ultra High Performance "summer" tire was faster than the fastest Ultra High Performance All-Season tire in this test. And finally, all drivers would agree that Ultra High Performance All-Season tires can't equal the the snow traction of winter tires especially when you consider that Ultra High Performance All-Season tires include many low profile sizes with wide treads which have to "plow" a wide path through the snow. If deep or frequent snow is expected, we recommend using winter tires.

So recognizing the inherent compromises, why would a driver want Ultra High Performance All-Season tires? There are plenty of reasons which depend on where you live and how you drive. Ultra High Performance All-Season tires are for you if you enjoy the appearance of a car equipped with large diameter wheels and low profile tires and live at the edge of the snowbelt where only occasional or light snow is the norm. Or if you live in the sunbelt and are likely to only encounter snow on a limited basis (from your Atlanta home you visit the relatives in Rochester, NY for the winter holidays). Or if you don't repeatedly exercise your car's handling capabilities or feel its Original Equipment Ultra High Performance summer tires were too uncomfortable, too expensive or wore out too quickly (some Ultra High Performance All-Season tires offer the low profile sizes, ride a little smoother, last a little longer and cost a little less). If your driving needs are identified above, Ultra High Performance All-Season tires may be just the right tires for you.

ljj33

you got the g35 because TL's had tranny problems? i remember when I had my g, there were numerous problems with the 6mt transmissions? i didn't know this was also a problem with the TL 6mt. that sux.

avs007

First off you are saying the front tires have to do three things at the same time. They have to accelerate/decelerate, and steer. But in all actuality they can only do two of them at any given time. You can’t accelerate/decelerate at the same time so you can either accelerate and steer or decelerate and steer.

Actually, that's what I said. When I put the "slash" between accelerate and decelerate, I meant accelerate or decelerate, not both.


Second, out of all four tires on a front wheel drive car in the snow which ones will have the most grip? The front tires because of the weight of the engine. So out all four of those tires which ones would you want doing your accelerate/decelerate, and steering. The front tires because they have the most grip.

For simplicity sake, lets say the front tires have 100 points of traction. You have to divide that between acceleration and steering. If you are using 90 points of that traction for acceleration, you only have 10 points left for steering.

If you have a RWD setup, with decent tires on. You could have for example, 60 points of traction for acceleration through the rear wheels, and 100 points of traction for steering through the front wheels.



Third, you said “FWD has a tendency to plow” which is correct but you are forgetting one thing here. When does a car start to experience plow? Do they plow at slow or normal driving speeds? No. Do they plow at higher speeds? Yes. In most cases you would only experience plow when on a race track or driving really crazy on the streets.

What about when you try to take a turn on an ice/snow covered street, at a speed you thought was safe? I mentioned the story of the freeway ramp, because I normally took that curve at 50+, so when it was a little wet, I slowed it down to 45 or less, but the back end still broke loose, and I had a harder time recovering than when I did a similar thing in a RWD car. I'm not advocating driving like that all the time, I'm just saying it was easier to maneuver a RWD car in a similar situation. Regardless I learned the limits of my FWD car very quickly.

Now, when driving in the snow at what speeds will you be driving at? I hope to god you aren’t going fast. Everyone I know drives sloooooow in snow. Would you ever get plow at slow speeds? I think you already know the answer to that.

The answer is YES! I've seen people slide into curbs all the time, and they weren't going that fast.


Also when in a front wheel drive car that has the back end coming out on you……. the last thing you want to do is slam on the breaks. All that would have done is help the back end come around even more. Slamming on the break will cause all the weight to transfer forward. Thus causing the rear end to get light and loosing even more traction on the rear tires.

This may sound crazy but if you have been to any of the high performance driving schools this is one of the techniques they will teach you.

I'm not a retard. If you read my post, I said I slammed on my brakes when the front was sliding. The incident where the back end of my FWD broke lose, was another story, and in that story I never said I slammed on the brakes.

avs007

I"m well aware of that, but it is really dependent on the tire. For example, my stock Michelin Pilot Sport summer tires, are a pretty good summer tire. However, I know of other summer max performance tires that have gotten poor wet weather traction.

With that being said, I wanted UltraHighPeformance All/Season tires, because it doesn't snow all that much here. It maybe snows one week out of the year. However, I can't just run summer tires, and garage the car when it does snow, because it does dip below 50 degrees for a good chunk of the year. And the Michelin Pilot Sport Summer tires, absolutely suck when it's less than 50 degrees. If its < 50 degrees, and there is any water on the pavement, my car will fishtail like crazy when accelerating. This problem went away with my All Season tires.

I did a lot of research when I bought my tires. That's why I stuck the Contis on the GTP, because it got the best snow traction, but not as good handling, but I don't take the corners as aggresively as my othe cars. So I put the Michelin Pilot Sport All/Season on my G35, because in many tests, (and my own butt-dyno), it performed exceptionally well for me.

avs007

I also took a look at the Max Summer vs All Season comparo you talked about. The all season tire that was tested, was the Goodyear Eagle RS-A ! Not only is that tire not listed as an "Ultra High Performance All Season", (it's listed as a High Performance All Season), that tire is one of the worst tires in it' category, as it came in almost dead last among other tires in it's class. I can vouch for that myself, as that tire came stock on my GTP.

avs007

As a side note, I didn't say I was helped out in the rain with All Season tires. I mentioned the Ultra High Performance All Season tires, because then my RWD car would've had the same type of tire as my FWD car did, for a better comparison...

Donte99TL

My bad that I miss understood you.

Tunerman

Please provide us with proof that FWD is better. Not opinions. Back your statements up. We will be waiting.

Tunerman

Some people obviously are blinded a little. Donte99TL.

Remember, that RWD and FWD act differently when the weight is transfered. FWD has more weight up front on some cases. But think of it this way. What happens when you hit the gas? 70+% of the cars weight goes on the back TIRES! And guess which ones have less traction then? The front. RWD is better in the snow than FWD just because of this. FWD isn't better than RWD. They can be equally matched.

Remember, most cars weight is always on the back when accelerating. This is why RWD cars do not have problems in the snow as people tend TO THINK they do by all these rumors which aren't true.

Also when it rains, if you go more than half throttle on most cars the FWD cars will just start to spin a tire. The RWD cars do not seem to loose any traction at all. Most of my cars I have owned till the G35 were FWD cars and all experienced this. The G35 is the most stable car other than my Audi in bad weather conditions.

dsc888

Wait a minute! I have to disagree with you on this one. Your statement holds true for dry and wet surfaces. But if you try and accelerate on snow from a complete stop, the FWD setup will have the advantage. Once you tires start to slip in the snow, weight over the drive wheels will have the advantage as the weight shift towards the back has NOT yet occurred. Once underway, your point has more validity. But put a good set of snows on the back of a Bimmer, and it can leave the TL spinning its front wheels.

dsc888

Legend2TL

We're also waiting for you to back up your proof with facts also

TLinNJ

I really don't feel like reading all that but from the topic i must say fun and worth is totally different. A EVO is way more fun to drive than the TL IMHO becuase its faster,smaller,and more responsive<(which makes the car more fun). But i would never in my life ever buy a EVO/G/350 with my own money. But i never regret going from 2001 TL to 2005 TL. Cars should be worth its money for there own purpose. If you want a fast two door/coupe car with some class get a G35 coupe or 350Z or even a cheap mustang GT which will kick both g35 and 350z ass.If a 4 door/sedan that is fast with class TL/ES300/G35 was my options. But i know that someone will take a EVO over them which i think looks like a toy but would really love to own one without buying it. GET IT? Sorry my grammar is so bad.

Way of talking in english and my own language is so different and hard.

Ga_Tech_TL

Proof? Well i cant show u but i know for myself bc the honda got out of the driveway but the m3 didnt. And the 530 had a tough time getting out. The 530 had the advantage bc it was the haviest of all. If u are going on a snowy surface and stop, a rwd will just spin and havea hard time going. My point is that fwd had easier time getting the car moving again. ITs pure physics really. Its easier to pull from the front and from the back. Am i making sense here?

avs007

I'm still going to say tires make all the difference. A few winters ago, my wife got stuck on the hill by our house in her TL. Those Michelin Energy MXV4 tires stuck. I rescued her in my GTP, which was wearing UltraHighPerformance All Season Yokohama AVS db tires.

What tires did your M3 have? They come from the factory with summer only rubber. Did your 530 have the sport package? (which also includes summer rubber IIRC)

I had zero problems with my RWD G35, when it was wearing Pilot Sport All Season tires, accelerating from a complete stop, on a snow/ice covered surface. I even made it up my inclined driveway just fine. The TL on the otherhand, I had to back the car up, and get a running start to get it up my driveway. Maybe it's because the driveway was inclined, so the weight shifted onto the back tires, when going up Our 05' TL hasn't seen the winter yet, so I can't comment on it. But I do know that the Pilot MXM tires on it suck, according to tire-rack.

samkws

you can't say the car is fun to drive just because it's RWD or AWD, you have to actually drive the car around for a while and compare

my aunt has a CTS and she travels a lot, so she let me to use her car when she's away (tons of mileage unused), and even i get a gd car to drive around and RWD, i don't find it's interesting or fun to drive vs. my TL

so you can't say this car is better because it look so on the paper

mickey3c

Well I can agree somewhat... The RWD G does get better numbers on the skidpad with the 215 55 17 tires, So anyone with the sport suspension is having more fun in the G. It is not entirely because of RWD, it is because of how it is set up. I have driven both and the G is more fun. Seat of the pants torque is there as well. Even if it was a it slower on the 0-60 run, you would not notice it.

I travel the same roads every day and I notice that I cannot travel at the same speed with the TL as I can with the G.

Legend2TL

Some posts here have taken great liberties mixing opinion into facts and are overly simplistic.

If you are interested in some real physics in automobles I suggest looking at this excellent series from the Miata.net group

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/

empathy

rwd > awd > fwd.

wonder why prosche and ferrari loves building MR's? wonder why the s2000 has a 50/50 weight distribution to basically give it handling characteristics of a MR?

neffster

Well, as a casual reader of this forum (and very infrequent poster) I have to say that I am soooo glad that I got my 2004.5 G35 Coupe 6MT.

Just yesterday I dropped about $6800 (a little more than the price for an A-Spec kit) for a Vortec S/C, Defi boost, Defi Fuel Pressure, AEM Wideband A/F gauges, G3pod gauge pod, NGK 1 step colder plugs and a GATES Belt, (along with pre-paying for the installation and tuning) and I'm soon to be expecting close to 400rwhp.

I too test drove the TL and almost bought it, but the coupe kept calling me. From the exhaust note to the sleek styling and relentless performance modification potential... I just don't see how with all of these neat things, you guys/girls can get caught up in FWD vs. RWD. That's so not the point to a G35 owner...

The G35 has soooo many more performance mods available it just seems unfair (at least for the guys on your end).

Back into hiding for now... Go get 'em AVS007!

rets

Under some "performance-related" categories, yes, you could be right...

2LOW4U

Wha'ts wrong with Fox bodies? Have you ever been in a fast one? ie 9s on the street? I don't think it gets a whole lot more fun, unless its a 9 sec Vette or Supra...

Tunerman

Yea, do you know Mike Murillo? He is one of my local friends. He has the fastest mustang in the country. But its not a car for any type of handling. No mustang is really.

lavo

G35 is faster, maybe handles better...other than that it's not that great of a car. parents have a sedan and I drove a Coupe...I'll take my TL thank you very much.