Xpditor

I have observed a systemic prejudice in the auto enthusiast media against Front Wheel Drive (FWD). It is universally condemned without investigation.

To wit: Road & Track, April 2004, tested an Acura TL and a BMW 530i. The TL outperformed the BMW in ALL areas (but one) including performance and handling. The TL got through the slalom at a higher speed and had a better "stick" expressed in terms of "g force". The one area the BMW had a slightly better number was braking 60-0. However, the TL was better braking from 80-0. In spite of this, car mags uniformally say "I love this car. I wish it were RWD."

In terms of getting from point A to point B on the twisties, the TL makes no apologies even to the German RWD icons of driving Nirvana. The two areas of discussion which fog up the landscape are:

1) subjective "feel" which is very dependent on the kind of cars upon which the driver's experience was obtained. FWD is different feeling and responding. Different is not the same as bad.

2) systemic prejudice (or auto political correctness) in which conventional wisdom says that RWD is better than FWD. Our mind is made up and we don't want to be confused with the facts.

Porches, with the engine in the rear, were put down by purists at one time because they were different- with their weight bias to the rear and funny "feel". Today, no one would suggest that Porsches don't handle or that they could improve performance with a front engine. (They actually tried that once but people didn't buy it.)

Yes, all cars (save all-out racing vehicles like Indy or Formula One) are compromises. The TL is a compromise. That is in response to what we, the buyers demanded. Going by the sales numbers, it seems Acura got it right.

The one area where the compromise can be troubling is the rear suspension geometry. To compensate for the heavy front end and torque steer, Acura has built in something akin to four-wheel steering upon high lateral forces (extreme cornering). This really works but, because of the changes in alignment, there can be excessive and premature wear on the rear tires. Worse, a heavy load of passengers and/or luggage in the rear can cause that change in alignment and wear the tires quickly. There are separate threads on this topic.

Yes, the TL is a compromise and a beautfully executed one at that. If all I wanted was sports car performance, I would have purchased a Lotus for close to the same money.

Champcar1

Hi X-

Very well put. I have owned numerous front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars. I have driven race cars, go-karts, motorcycles, yada yada yada. I must say that, for a street car, the TL is the best compromise of FWD, handling, performance that I have driven yet. I have to say though, that for all out performance and handling on a race track, I would prefer a rear driver. They simply allow more car control because if you have the power, you can steer the car with the rear almost as much as you can steer with the front. But let's all be realistic. How many times do any of us race our TL's? Not very often I would bet. So for all around street car performance and handling in real world conditions, this car is extremely difficult to beat. It's a great car.

nikko

Excellent put! I owned and Audi A4 and BMW 325 for some reason I feel no difference whatsoever in day-to-day handling between my TL and the above cars.
RWD may give you a bit better handling in extreme situations but let's face it, how many of us face extereme situations in day-to-day driving?
FWD offers so many more advantages over RWD.....a few days ago I witnessed a BMW struggling on a highway on-ramp because of 4 inches of snow.
To me the only layout that makes sense, beside FWD, is AWD.
None of my friends drive RWD and most of people I know stay away of it, they either go FWD or AWD.

ericajackhannahjamie?

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Most of these so called "magazine car experts" are a die-hard SPORTS CAR wannabe. I think they want to relate all RWD cars to a Camaro SS, Chevy Corvette, or a BMW M3. Our TLs out perform all family sedans out there. Reason I said "family sedan" is because or TL is a hybrid of family car(based on accord platform) and sports tuned (270hp). Make no mistake that I prefer FWD TL than RWD G35 Sedan. That's one of the reason I bought the 6MT TL.. I don't need to get stuck in the snow like the BMWs here because I live in New Jersey where there is snow every year , plus icy roads.

My point is made, and I can give all those car magazine experts a two down.

miniscule

I love what you said~~
FWD and RWD both have their own advantages/disadvantages, and I don't understand when people say which one is better than which.
Simply because of the fact that our cars are FWD does not mean it can't outperform any other car @ the same price range. I do wake up every morning and say "that's a beautiful car" .. and in my mind that's all that counts ^^;;;

F23A4

The TL's a quick sedan but in the broader family sedan category, I'd put my money on the Nissan Altima SE-R, with regard to performance. Good discussion here though.

Well stated post X.

Xpditor

miniscule:

Let me take the opportunity to welcome you to the Acura family in general and to Acurazine specifically. I know you will benefit from the comraderie and the shared knowledge that is available here- as I do.

Congratulations on your new TL. It is a beautiful choice of colors. I wish you many happy miles with your new ride. You have the taste and discernment to have chosen one of the best among people who know cars.

I have many fond memories of Alberta but haven't been farther north than Jasper and the mountains in the area (Whistler, etc.). It is indeed God's country.

Xpditor

The new Nissan Altima SE-R is a nice piece of work- especially in the Spec V edition.

I am a die-hard Maxima lover- having had several over the years. They performed well and wouldn't die. I also think that the VQ 3.5 Engine is one of the finest made at any price in any car. It makes our 3.2 look pedestrian as far as sophistication and engineering. I wish we had some of the features like DOHC and micro-honed surfaces.

At the end of the day, it will still be an Altima. It will go like stink, make a lot of noise in the process, build up your biceps trying to hang on, and scare you on a daily basis. It will also be boring and plasticky on the interior with loose bits here and there.

It will cost north of $32,000 (not sure the premium for the Spec V edition) but will not provide half of the luxury features that are standard on the TL. They aren't even available as options. It will have 260 HP compared with the TLs 270. Manual to manual or auto to auto, it appears to be pretty equally matched with the TL.

In daily driving, the Altima will feel stronger as does the Maxima. This is because they are tuned for peak torque lower in the RPM band. The Nissans (I consider them to be kissing cousins to my TL)will snort, and roar, and thrill the testosterone-drenched senses. It will burn its tires all the way through first gear in either stick or auto. It has a different spirit, feel, and ambiance (or lack thereof).

Chosing one over the other is a matter of priorities. What is more important to you? Luxury, comfort, style, class, quiet elegance? Or raw grunt and head-turning presence?

The choice was made easier for me when I saw that the performance/acceleration numbers slightly favored the Acura comparably equipped.

No, you can't have it all. But the TL gets real close and is a bargain as well.

-XP

gsrthomas

FWD does suck!

F23A4

mickey3c

Interesting... it is almost like people are trying to convince themsleves that the purchase they already made was a good one... class, speed, etc. Or starting a TL religion..... lol You bought what you bought... Its a car that has more than its share of problems according to some of the people here and the rating of 2 it received....

I would prefer less toys and for acura to provide something other than a cookie cutter car... All the same only one engine/drive/suspension/door/etc...

F23A4

Although my ride is an 02 Maxima, I cant claim to be a Maxima lover. (Especially given the 6G Maxima's styling departure from previous generations.) Also, there is no Spec-V version (Sentra only) but ,the Alti SE-R can be acquired for close to it's $28k invoice.

Good points. I was just referring to MainEvent's reference to TL outperforming all other family sedans. So maybe some comparison to the LGT and upcoming Mazda MS6 (2 more fast family sedans) is more applicable than the TL. Even the 3.5SE has an option of two that the SE-R doesnt have (i.e.: Navi) and is a bit plusher.

Back on topic though, the TL probably performs at about 95% (min) of how it's RWD counterparts perform. You'd have to be really on the edge (i.e.: AutoX, Road Course) in order to realize the G35S and 330i's RWD advantage. In my 02 Maxima (FWD), I've yet to run against a RWD car where the outcome was decided by it's RWD layout.

A lot of the mags we peruse through are performance oriented, the nature of which accents any performance advantage in a performance driving situation. As I recall similar comments about the then upgraded 5G Maxima (2002-03), you just need to read those comments in the light from which they originate.

Pro Stock John

Interesting thread.

Big longstanding bias against FWD, so the TL gets dissed even though it's faster than a 330i, 530i, and have a way better interior.

I love ours and my race car makes 754rwhp, I would not buy a 330i.

Altimas are crap looking.

caball88

fwd cars always do better in the slalom because most of oversteer/understeer characteristics. i prefer rwd as well simply because the handling is more nuetral and balanced. i got the TL because of fwd for snow and bad weather. the torque steer when accelerating through corners can be pretty dreadful sometimes. i know there will be people here who say torque steer doesn't exist. who are they kidding the freakin front wheel is accelerating like crazy and you don't feel it tugging on the wheel? my last car was a bmw and the handling was completely nuetral, very predictable and smooth. don't get me wrong i think the TL is one of the best sedans you can get. i like the car alot and everything that comes with it, including the fwd config.

Xpditor

I can speak only of my car. It has had NO problems in almost a year. Tell me about your personal experience with your 2004 TL. What problems have you had?

Who gave it a "2" rating? On what scale?

I wouldn't call the new TL a cookie cutter car. It gets a lot of attention and compliments from strangers. You are correct that there is only one model and no options. You have the choice of auto or stick and Navi or non Navi. What's your point? BTW, the A-Spec offers different suspension and wheels with some different styling.

If there had been a 2 door (CL) available, I would have gotten that.

On the XP scale, I would give it a 8 out of 10 for a luxury performance car. I'm saving the 10 for the Bentley Continental Coupe.

Xpditor

The NissanUSA.com website lists an SE-R Spec V in its drop down model menu for Altima. There are no other details, however, so perhaps it hasn't been released yet.

Do you know what the Spec V package gets you on the Sentra? I assume it will be similar.

jhan1102

I had torque steering when I got the car, but after 4-wheel alignment it’s gone. Dealer took my car to the alignment specialist, and tech said that most cars that come from the factories are little off. But when I gun the car now, it goes out without any torque steer.

F23A4

R U sure you changed the model from Sentra (default selection) to Altima? Link

kosh2258

I agree, and well said.

Every method of getting power to the ground is a compromise. These are generalizations about each. I acknowledge there are exceptions and by no means all the pros/cons to each method.

RWD:

Positive - Splits responsibility for power transfer and steering.
Negative - Traction in adverse conditions suffers from less weight over drive wheels.

FWD:

Positive - Put more weight over drive wheels for better traction in adverse conditions.
Negative - Places more responsibility on front wheels to both power and steer, higher loads to overcome.

AWD:

Positive: Best of both worlds regarding traction and power transfer, and overall best balance.
Negative: Adds weight, cost, and complexity to the vehicle.

All the trade rags are jumping on the the RWD bandwagon at the moment because it's the buzz du jur and they're pandering to the market. That's obvious because of all the years that numerous FWD vehicles were just fine and now, rather suddenly, they all are considered substandard to RWD.

Watch, however. Once the trade rags figure out the market is hot for AWD, suddenly AWD will be the darling and both strictly FWD and RWD vehicles will be substandard.

Ya has ta love media hype.

Xpditor

I think you're right. I can't find it again now. I got all excited for nothing.

EZZ

RWD has inherent advantages in driving dynamics during aggressive driving / racing etc... Weight transfer plays a big role in controlling your car and RWD allows higher limits due to its setup. I believe mags will always choose RWD over FWD. It will never change because they focus on going fast...not safety, practicality, cost or space available. Consumer reports and Edmunds are much better publications that focus on everyday drivability and the TL usually scores very high on those factors.

As AWD systems become lighter, it will probably replace FWD in high horsepower cars due to torque steer. RWD will always be the choice for dry climate sports cars. I don't mind FWD and its great for everyday driving but still wouldn't want it in my sports cars.

F23A4

No biggie. That site has been running kinda weird over the last few days so, I dont doubt that you clicked 'Altima' and the trim levels for the Sentra didnt change for a minute or two.

Dr.Murdock

I dont get torque steer while regular driving or even hard striaght away driving. Only time i feel it is when i accelerate hard when going around long corners

Xpditor

Your post is a good example of the conventional wisdom of which I spoke. When people say things like, "It will never change...", that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I will say again- the TL was FASTER than the BMW 530i in ALL measures including cornering/handling/grip. The testers said they both had mild understeer- . Here is what they said further of the TL:

“In the slalom, the TL threads through the cones with utmost agility, giving the car a bit of on-throttle over steer character thanks to its rear suspension geometry.” - R&T, April 2004

What will probably never change is the "purists" refusal to acknowledge that fact. The "inherent advantages" of RWD seem to melt away in the objective numbers at the race track. But still, R&T said they wish the TL had the driving wheels in the rear.

It begs the question: Would they still want the driving wheels in the rear if the performance of the car were not as good? How locked in are they to their preconceptions?