99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Alright guys. I am new to this forum and foreign vehicles all together. I have been a GM guy, and still am, however I am looking for the reliability and longevity of an Acura for my wife.

I have found a '04 TL with a brand new nav system, new tires, fully detailed, 82300 miles. The cost is 10,999. The carfax comes back completely clean, however the dilemma is in the autocheck report coming back with frame damage. After alot of searching and reports I've found this explanation below.

"Frame/unibody damage will be defined by Dealer Sealed Bid Auctions with reference to the NAAA standards. Scrapes, scratches, jack/lift marks, clamp marks, minor corner tie-down marks not resulting from an accident, core support damage, damage in front shock towers on unitized bodies not affecting integrity, and if vehicle measures to NAM standards are non-arbitratable bumper and trailer hitches welded to frame are not considered frame damage. Vehicles with altered suspension are not subject to frame arbitration if damage is from alteration."

source: http://www.publicauctionsonline.com/policies.html

I have designed suspensions for kit car companies and know alot about GM's and almost any American car, but I am new to the foreign market. I will be getting a full alignment done on it as well as a frame check this week before I consider the purchase. The vin# is 19UUA662X4A052277.

I am wondering what you guys suggest and if this is really a worry for the unibodies of these TL's. If everything comes back clean and based on the information above, I don't see why no but that is why I am enlisting some help.

1ogan

It looks like they're just listing an aesthetic problem. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as many others here, but I don't think it's something to be too worried about given that explanation.

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

That's what I figured, I'm hoping a few others with some more experience might jump in.

Thanks for the input though.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Impala SS? camaro?

it looks like you have your bases covered, meaning if it doesnt check out with the mechanic or frame specialist; dont buy it.

from personal experience, jacking up the car on stands can cause the unibody/frame to bend under the weight of the car. i've chalked it up to noob mistakes and make sure the jack stands are under a stronger portion of the beam.

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

That's also what I have experienced. Thanks for the input.

Does the above mentioned car sound like a good deal to you guys?

I had a 99 orange SS camaro and now a very heavily modified 00 trans am that I road race with

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

for the price it's a steal!

there is a 105k service, which includes timing belt and water pump.
something to look out for, since the car you're looking at has about 90k miles.

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Ya I have found that along with the other maintenance suggestions for that mileage mark. All those are easy though.

Thanks for the input man, much appreciated. I will also be going to a car auction and bidding on some 08's so either way I should be coming away this week with a TL!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Nice! Welcome to the family.

post pictures of your road racers!

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Thanks I'm looking forward to it.

Here is the link to my machine! I will be posting pics of the custom IRS here sometime soon. For some reason Med school just seems to take up all my time.

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Well we finally picked up an '05 w/ nav and only 71K for 16,300 out the door so not too bad!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Congrats!

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! Its a far better machine then my wifes '06 mustang it replaced

k20kev

iTrader: (1)

welcome to the TL club!

Chad05TL

regardless of price or frame damage... If it is your wifes primary vehicle, and you don't want to work on it much, then I would consider stepping up to an 07 or 08 TL for about 17 or 18k because you may end up spending a few thousand or more fixing things or doing preventative maintenance on the 04 anyway. It's best to get the newer model which already has some fixes and it will be easier to sell later. When I bought my TL, I didn't want to spend as much as I did.. but now I wish I would have spent more and got an 07 or 08. The differences doesn't appear to be much, but as you look closer, you will see there are huge differences. Everything from transmission fixes, updated navigation with better resolution, backup camera, better leather than an 04 ( but my 05 has better leather my friends 07), upgraded wheels, new Cluster, Mp3 compatibility, tire pressure sensors, rear deck vibration fixes, chrome grill compatibility, dash boards don't crack on the 07/08, new front bumper design with relocated fog lights and I could go on and on... So, you would be getting a lot more than you think on the 07/08 PLUS lower mileage and a longer lasting car.. Is longevity worth it to you? I wouldnt throw away 10k on that car. You want to invest it.. so that you can go a little ways down the road without pains. Short term it may seem like a good deal, but if you can get 2 years of pain free service, then you will be proud to own a newer TL.

ps... I have owned 9 f-body's.

Think about tomorrow.

Chad05TL

hey.. I just saw you got an 05... I am not downing my 04 TL brothers but I think there are improvements from 04 to 05... even if they are small. But I am Glad you said it has navi for 16k.. Otherwise I'd scream and hollar. You gotta have that today man.

but the first things I would do is keep the dash board lubricated, change the transmission fluid ASAP and use redline fluid. And make sure Acura has done the recalls on it.. There are at least 2 you can get for free.... I know because they did mine.. And every other upgrade, is at your leisure..

Congrats on the 05 and navi!

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Oh ya I decided not to go with it because I ended up finding some minor damage. Ya I always keep the interior in great condition so the dash is no worry. I am an amsoil dealer as well which helps me out with all the road racing I do so I will be running all amsoil in the car here very soon. In my experience there is really not anything better, especially when I see how it holds up at the extreme conditions I put it through compared with other products.

I actually got it from an acura dealer and talked them down to 2K under KBB and then made them take care of the tax and fees, so it ended up a pretty good deal being how tight we were on time in finding one.

Thanks again for all the help! I hope if anyone ever has GM vehicle questions they'll hit me up b/c they are my specialty, along with racing

Chad05TL

haha I used to be chad97z on ls1.com back in the day. and also on dfwls1.com .. but not now. and I used to have a 2000 WS6 TA with ram air... but lost my job.. telecom crash.. then later I built this "SS" from a Z28.. so I already know..

I hate cars

Welcome! The Tl is not much different to understand than the F-body. Unibody construction with a front and rear subframe. The torsional rigidity of the TL is on par with the C5 Vette.

To ensure you have no troubles, make sure to read up on the transmission issues. To make a long story short, you want to run a type F fluid (Redline racing and Amsoil Super Shift work great) and replace the 3rd and 4th gear switches every few years. These two simple items will make the trans bulletproof. Without them, the trans is the weak link.

Once the rotors warp, don't waste your time replacing them with stock, they will only do it again and again.

Looking forward to hearing more about the '00 TA with IRS. Did you go with the Vette setup?

FWD is not my cup of tea but the TLs with light mods do surprisingly well on the circuits. I tried mine out at Willow a couple times with light mods (just mild springs, shocks, and swaybars) and on the short course it was competitive with some of the Vettes, M3s, Subies, etc. Put it on Big Willow and it gets killed.

Chad05TL

and btw.. I painted the hood myself.. It was gray colored.. I learned how to do all that during the telecom crash from 2002 - 2006

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

Nice! I have the same id over on ls1tech.com I mainly reside there

Ya I personally prefer rear wheel drive. I went with the C4 IRS and I have been modifying it every chance I get. In the near future I will be fabbing up a custom double wishbone in the back and utilize the upgraded dana 44. Once my 15 days are up I will be able to update my sig with more info on my machine!

Ya I figured the TL's were essentially the same, I just wanted to cover my bases. Thanks for the info on the tranny as well, I've already been reading up on that so I feel pretty good now. This is the perfect car for my wife, however I will be modding it like I do my car to see what these things can handle I usually don't stick with the standard modifications as I like to pioneer new ground; hence my car's mods. I will definitely keep everyone updated on the progress of both our vehicles now, unfortunately med school is keeping my modding to a minimum.

Chad05TL

btw, "I hate cars" is a pretty knowledgeable guy on these TL's... but does he know more than me? hahahahaha.. Maybe!! anyways.. he's cool.. but I want his anti-sway bars..

However, I'm a creature of maintenance first.. so I am awaiting 3rd and 4th gear switches.

however again... I am guilty of unrequired mods.. because I just installed the RainX wipers and Pilot 30.5" white LED's in my trunk.

I hate cars

You've got your priorities straight, I wish I did when I was younger. I may check it out over on ls1tech. Very curious to see first hand the improvements going from live axle to IRS in the same car. I've spent the majority of my time behind the wheel in a live axle car, I've owned it since I was 17. The GN is heavily modded in the suspension department, much more than just a set of springs and swaybars. What I couldn't get over is even with all the mods, the TL when stock was so much more planted over bumps in mid corner. Where I was ready for the tail to twitch over bumps it just stayed planted. It really got me hooked on IRS except for pure straight line racing.

I hate cars

Chad, I really like that light strip in the trunk, especially since you can't see it when standing up. I've always wanted more light in the trunk but never did anything about it. Got to be tasteful about the mods especially in a foreign car lol.

When are you going to break down and do that infinite baffle setup? I just found out that since they took so long to process my order, I can add two more of the IB15 subs to the list bringing the cost down to $125 each or only $100 each for whoever orders another two.... I may just order a couple more anyway and figure out what to do with them later. it's just so neat that you can get a couple of the best sounding 15" SQ subs out there and add only 35lbs total to the car and take up very, very little trunk space.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Not sure what you meant by "brand new navigation system", but I guess doesnt matter either way since you didnt buy that car anyway. Sounds like you went with the better choice and got a different one.
Good to see another GM enthusiast I have a C6 Z06 but sold my 2007 Type S.

James

jungy4

Welcome from a ex-GM owner!

My last car was a 2002 Pontiac Grand AM GT that was reliable to me for 170k miles. I wanted a superchaged Grand Prix, but I wanted to shift myself so here I am.

Chad05TL

ya.. funny.. break down and do it is right. because I'm so conservative I gotta wait until my impulses over drive my logic.... And plus I see longevity at my job even after a year later... So, why not!! since I have saved some $$... anywho... You crack me up.. 15" are so dang big... And I've been wanting to ask you some questions about your IB setup. Like I'm driving to work and I wonder if you have have anything covering the back since of your woofer(s)... and how much db can you hear being installed behind the seat.. or how much db LOSS do you have being behind the seat? I want a new D class JL HD750/1 or HD900/5 arg!

remember I have 2 JL, W3, 12" in a box now.. no amp though..

anywho.. even though I like hard music, I also like afterhours club music on Fridays. Oh ya.. it's friday! haha
http://www.home.roadrunner.com/~chad...s-club-mix.mp3

free info:
http://mp3bear.com/

I'm a wealth of information... glory to God.

I hate cars

One is more than enough. I've heard of people hitting 141db at 20hz at 300 watts with one! I don't crank mine very often, I'm really more into SQ but the reason I went with two is less excursion. Basically I'll never push them anywhere near their limit but two drivers with half the excursion to move the same amount of air will sound slightly better. Basically I've learned that all else being equal, bigger is better and I'm talking strictly sound quality, not just output. Just an amazing sounding sub and it requires so little power.

From a couple guys that have metered theirs, there's usually a 1-2db loss with the rear seat up and the skipass up. With the skipass down it's a barely measurable loss.

These play any type of music. I know the stigma of a 15 is that they're for rap but these will play flat to 145hz. They have great transient response, low end, and will keep up with every type of music. Honestly, these will perform rock better than a pair of 10s.

I'm building it so that I can velcro a factory looking cloth behind them. It can't restrict airflow but I want it to look stock so when the trunk is open people can't see what I have. You only lose 6.5" of trunk space so with the cloth up hiding them, it looks like a stock full sized trunk with no subs.

Chad05TL

3db down = 1/2 power. That is an Electronics Engineering principle.

maybe we can take this up in another thread!

I hate cars

I totally agree with what you're saying. But a 0-1db loss with the armrest down isn't bad. I understand it takes double the power for a 3db gain in acoustical output but 3db is still barely audible. That brings me to my next point... Some guys have marked the point where the subs start completely overpowering the front stage on the volume knob. Then put a 4 ohm load in place of the sub and measure output. They're overpowering the front stage (aftermarket and amped) with 60-90 watts. Just super efficient.

With this electrical stuff, you're the man, I can't argue because that's your game but this is the way I understand it. You would be able to run them off of a tiny amp if all you want is loud SQ listening and never have an impact on the car's electrical system.

Chad05TL

since this thread is already "complete" because orangeSS already got a car, I think this is free space.. So with that being said..

JTS97Z28: I have been looking hard at Z06's too.. But I have not done it. They are depreciating so fast AND yet most are still too high in price and the cheaper ones are older with too many miles and too much $ with no Navi or handsfree. So I am not going that way yet until an affordable one comes out with handsfree. So it may be another year until the 2009's drop in price. haha just my opinion but it's just another GM car that breaks like any other car. So, too much $. And I can afford it if I want to. But I do have some limits.. But I mainly want a house first. But yes those Z06's are a great sport machine. And they are proud of them! haha


IHC: I agree that big power changes only produces small DB changes. I used a bridged a 100w amp in my camaro. And it played very well. But I want the bass to be tuned lower. I think I may need to add more power and remove the box. So let me ask: Is your IB flush against the back seat? Any space between the speaker and the backseat?

Chad05TL

btw, my trunk lights are brighter than what my camera depicts. The auto exposure is messing with the brightness. Plus it's hard to lightup a black surface. Thats why I put the towel in the other pic. But the best part about these lights is they cost $22 and took me 20 minutes to install.

Chad05TL

I think the GN is top heavy compared to the TL because the GN's wheels are not pushed out as far as the TL. Is the TL lighter too? Don't know. But I think the reason for the added stability in the TL is mainly due to the overall structure of the car. But tire technology helps too.. along with tire profile. Both have come a long way since the 80's. In the 70's they didn't have a thing called tire technology. haha And they didnt know what sway bars were either!!

99_orange_SS

iTrader: (1)

The added stability of the TL over the GN is for so many reasons. A few are the TL has a better weight distribution, it has true double wishbone setup on all 4 corners allowing for each wheel to be independent, its frame has far newer technology placed in it allowing it to be more structurally rigid, the car as a whole is lighter, has a more advantageous wheelbase for being nimble in the corners, and sway bar technology is improved/added...there are many other reasons, just not worth going into being that it is established the TL is better at handling

I hate cars

The weight would surprise you. My TL weighs 3,920 with me in it, the GN weighed 3,460 without me in it so add 220lbs which still comes in well under the TL. It now weighs barely 3,100lbs without me in it.

Tire technology isn't really important except when bone stock. The GN sits on better rubber than the TL out of necessity. It also came with a 28mm front bar and 15mm rear bar stock along with a quicker steering ratio than the TL. Will it outcorner the TL, probably not but that's mostly due to suspension geometry and the live axle and the fact that it's set up for straight line performance.

The live axle is responsible for the rear wanting to hop over bumps mid corner. Just about any live axle car whether it's a Mustang or Camaro will do this.
The Tl actually has horrible weight distribution. The GN has the little V6 well behind the front axle line instead of the whole engine/transmission assembly on or in front of the axle line. Stock the GN was 57/43 vs the TL's 61/38. With the small changes such as the battery in the trunk, I'm sure it's a little better now.

Wheel base between the two are identical at 108". However, the GN has more body overhang which hurts transients but not so much steady state. The GN is 2" taller than the TL.

As I stated, stock for stock the GN is a solid 150-200lbs lighter than the TL.

Both have "double wishbones" in the front but the GN's stock geometry is nothing short of terrible. Most of my money has gone into replacing the upper and lower control arms, moving the frame mounting points, and using a longer upper ball joint to correct the factory geometry. Obviously out back the TL's multi-link (not double wishbone) has a huge advantage against the live axle. Stiff frame, agreed there. The TL's frame I would guess is literally 2-5x as stiff as the GN. Again, this is not so in my case but we're talking stock for stock so I won't go there.

Put them both on equal tires and the TL should still win but it's not as bad as many people would think. Steady state cornering is pretty close but on a track the TL would leave it behind. Let's keep in mind, all mag testing from the '80s was done on 215/60/15 rubber. But when the GNX came with decent 255/50 rubber, it not only beat the Vette in a straight line, it also pulled a higher skidpad number in many tests.

Back to my original statement, the live axle is why the GN skips around corners and the IRS is why the TL is so planted and less scary at the limit. Both very different cars with different purposes. Some days I like the raw nature of the GN and sometimes I like the more refined nature of the TL. I love them both.

Chad05TL

A few comments:

1. where do you get those numbers for weight distribution?

2. If your rear end skips in a curve, it might be because if you lowered your car, the LCA's have lost their effectiveness because of angle, as well as stiff shock obsorbers..

3. If IRS means independant rear suspension, then that is not the only thing that causes a car to skip around in the back. It's only a fraction of the reason.. I bet the rear end of your car is sagging. So, you have reduced spring action plus stuff shocks like Bilstien or something like that.

4. GN's don't require out of "necessity", "better" tires.... Metal is metal. 4 wheels in a square is 4 wheels in a square.. (or rectangle). In other words, your GN doesn't know if it is riding on AS tires or Z rated.. The car does what it does.. It's not smart.. And it doesnt require anything.. It just depends on what you want out of it.

5. 220? are you all muscle? haha Yur AbOut 70 PoUnDs Heavier than me dude.. and I'm 6 friggn 1.

I hate cars

TL weight distribution came from the official Honda site. It actually surprised me because I thought it was 70/30 so better than I was expecting. The GN came off the top of my head.

My GN is barely lowered as I wouldn't do anything to hurt the straight line traction. Lots of unsprung weight causes the tires to skip over bumps and while IRS might give you less than 15lbs, the entire axle on the GN is unsprung weight so it's several times more than a TL which is why it hates bumps mid corner. On a perfectly smooth road, the live axle would actually do just as well if not better than IRS but perfect roads don't exist.

Good rubber is a necessity. It has 100more hp than a ZR1 at the wheels and weighs just a little less than a new Civic. On non drag radial street tires it has no problems spinning at 110mph. Let's keep in mind it hasn't been to the track in a bunch of years. It has the power to weight ratio to go 9s in the mid to high 130mph range. Power is no good unless you can put it down.

220 and mostly all muscle, I've taken a couple years off but I was a competitive power lifter at 198lbs and walked around at 215. Did a few other things that required me to be pretty lean too. I always cut for summer so I'll be around 215 in a month or two.

Chad05TL

well congrats on physical condition, but my detuned 86 IROC outran a grand national on the highway even... and it handled like no other car previously... except an 85 IROC.. And my IROC was even stronger on off the line.. So, your numbers seem to be off a little. I saw your nitrous bottle on your webpage.. But that doesnt make your rear end skip around.

Overall, you can fix your skipping problem.. IRS or not... you can fix it. er at least I bet I could.. =)

I hate cars

Your IROC must've been modified, I ran lots of stock IROCs when I was stock. Nitrous has not been used since the '90s. It's not hooked up but the bottle remains as a way of hustling races. The IROC only came with a 5.7L 220hp/320lbs torque 350 with an auto and 3.27 or a 190hp 5.0 with a manual and 3.42. Neither of which are going to have anything for a stock GN.

Look up IRS vs live axle and you will understand what I"m talking about. The number one reason for IRS is to avoid the rear end hopping around under hard cornering on uneven pavement. This is text book material. I'm not talking about wheel hop under power, none of that going on. IRS tends to be a little more fragile under big power and big traction but has the advantage in corners. The Vette guys seem to have it down pretty well though. It's personal preference.

Again, let me emphasize that any skipping around is cornering at the limit, anything below that it's fine. It's perfectly fine in this car because cornering is not a priority. Your IROC and your Camaro would do the same at the limit if you pushed it hard enough. Why do you think the OP went to IRS?

Chad05TL

no GN would ever touch an IROC in cornering.. period.. end of story.. GN = Hype. souped up 6 banger.. still not equal to a Vette or an IROC. And I drove my IROC super hard.. no skipping.. you are super wrong buddy.

Chad05TL

GN almost equal to Regal.. oops.. Like SS Regal..