JackSprat01

I changed my oil a couple weeks ago, but now I have the lab results in. This oil change was done at 2,900 and the MID said 60%. I used the standard Acura oil filter and Lubrication Engineers 10w30 synthetic oil. I also added a half pint of Maxlife. I reset the MID and will change it out again many months from now, but when I do, I'll have it analyzed again. These first 2,900 miles consisted of mixed commuting conditions (plus the maiden voyage home from the Florida dealership to Virginia.) The car also sat for a couple months in the winter, but I doubt that changed anything except that I didn't "warm it up." Here are the results:



These results seemed quite a bit different from previous posters. I had a TBN of 3.6 and 308 moly left! Clearly I could have gone further on the additive pack but the viscosity was bad....not sure what caused that, but I'm glad it's out anyway.

Hopefully this info is useful and/or interesting to someone!

SodaLuvr

Insolubles are too high, the oil was clearly in need of a change. Ideally, the insolubles should be 0.4 or lower.

Yep, no doubt, it is very possible that this another one of those High Copper Honda V6 Engines.

Wear metals are high, typical of a factory fill.

A few short OCIs, 4K or less, will lower wear metals. Wear-in usually takes about 15,000 miles, wear will usually drop to more reasonable levels by the third fill.

Michael

JackSprat01

[QUOTE=
Wear metals are high, typical of a factory fill.

A few short OCIs, 4K or less, will lower wear metals.
Michael[/QUOTE]

Ok, I wasn't planning on doing that short of an interval after the first change, but what you say makes sense and you've convinced me. I'll go ahead and change it out at 3 or 4k. I only wish I had used cheaper oil now!

SodaLuvr

What I meant to say was, don't run this next fill longer than 5K.

Your insolubles are way too high, even for a factory fill. What type of driving do you do? JetJock's TL only had insolubles of 0.5 after close to 5000 miles.

I wouldn't worry about it too much right now, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to start a shock dose of Fuel Power (FP) then continue using it at the 1ounce to 5gallon ratio. If the insolubles continue to be high at the next oil change (higher than 0.4), start using FP and consult a professional such as Terry Dyson.

Other than that, this report shows another reason why the factory fill should have came out earlier, and refilled with a high moly oil like Havoline 5W-30.

Michael

JackSprat01

I thought I did just regular driving, but maybe I'm having too much fun? Do too many insolubles indicate a heavy foot? It's a 6 spd, so maybe I'm lugging it too much? I have been known to skip a gear or two when I'm lazy. Also, in my commute I don't have any highway...lots of 45 zones and lights.

Also, can you share some links or other additional info on Fuel Power? Thanks.

AcidHorse

[QUOTE=JackSprat01]




QUOTE]


Sooooooo, with this chart, should we change at lesser intervals? Increased mileage intervals? Use all synoil? A blend of 2 different brands?

JackSprat01

Acidhorse, these charts are not often easy to interpret and can ofter be misinterpreted by non-professionals like myself. BUT, that won't stop me from taking a stab at it!

To me this chart tells me I was an idiot for waiting so long to change my oil for the first time. All items in bold are "bad." My iron and coppper were pretty high. Yes, this is normal during break in but why leave it in there to continue to grind up the engine??? Also the insolubles were too high. This can often be from gunk from the factory from the engine build process. The silicon too.

My viscosity was also low. I have no idea why that happened, but we all know that poor viscosity increases engine wear...not a good thing.

Check out Blackstone Labs for a very nice cheat sheet on what this all means. Soon you'll be looking at these charts and actually seeing something!

From this and other first oil analyses, I beginning to think that it is a big mistake to obey the MID for the first oil change. I agree that it's critical to replace the Acura additive pack, but just get some Maxlife and do exactly that. If I were to do it again, I would have changed out at 1k with some cheap Halvoline and a pint of Maxlife. I would do it again at 3k. Ah, hindsight is 20/20. Those of you with spanking new TLs, learn from our mistakes dammit!!!

SodaLuvr

Umm... If you were to do it again, I'd change at 1000 miles with SM Havoline 5W-30 and NO additives. SM Havoline 5W-30 has 360ppm of Molybdenum, which is roughly the same amount that is present in the factory fill. Yes, change again at 3,000 miles if you do that.

Sorry RR, but I don't mean to disagree with you, but adding a pint of MMO to M1 10W-30 or LE won't give it 300ppm of Molybdenum. Worse, it'll even thicken the oil.

Also JackSprat01, I'd like to post this UOA on BITOG. Please PM me with your permission.

I'd also like to mention that you did not collect enough oil to test for the flashpoint and the fuel. Don't make that same mistake next time. The high insolubles are normal for the factory fill since there is a lot of "big" debris that the filter cannot catch, only the silicon is caused by the engine building process and the headgasket material.

A link to the Fuel Power/Lube Control Site: http://www.lubecontrol.com/

Michael

SodaLuvr

Also, did you tell Blackstone that this is a 5W-20 oil?

Just to note, dino oils tend to shear slightly. However, yours sheared more than the other factory fill UOA showed. This could be from the fuel that was there and undetected since there wasn’t enough oil to test.

Michael

icemanvko

When are you supposed to change the oil? When the Car tells you? I have 4500 miles on it, but its all highway miles.

My car thinks I have 40% left of oil life. What should I do?

JackSprat01

I don't intend to.

Road Rage

Just a reminder that it is very imprtant to follow the Lab's instructions on obtaining the sample. I looked at a chart in my files, and it shows how particles of about 50 microns of various materials (copper, iron, etc) "settle" at different rates. Some within about 45 seconds of shut off! So wait too long, and the sample of the oil will not be indicative or comparable to another sample, making the whole process a waste of time and money. Wear anbalysis is all about trends (except where there is a mechanical failure, such as a coolant leak), and if your sampling procedure varies, it will yield unreliable test results. Try as best you can to follow the same procedure: example:
1) Wait 5 minutes to loosen the drain plug
2) Let the stream go for XX seconnds (5,10, 15, whatever)
3) Obtain sample

Use the same procedure and the same Lab, and you will have good forensics. Normal variations in the accuracy of the Lab's capabilities will smooth over time (in the R&D area my team does IT for, we outsource some of our testing to external labs, and factor in their testing history into our analyses).

2002 Maxima SE

Since you are sending the next sample in anyway....just send it in at 4k or 5k and have it next day aired to Blackstone. If all looks good, keep going, else change the oil.

I used a suction device from Wal-Mart (looks like a big syringe) and some tubing down the fill tube. Less messy too.

SodaLuvr

Maxima Person,
The fill that Jack put into his car went in during a period of the engines life known as "wear-in," which means that the wear metals will be elevated. It is normally a good idea to run (2) 5K drains after removing the factory fill. It typically takes 2-3 oil changes before the wear metals drop to a more reasonable level. Wear-in is usually the first 10-15,000 miles on an engine. Look at this UOA for an example:



In that spreadsheet, I have a sample of the factory fill. Between the factory fill and the first 5K drain (3000-8000), Pennzoil 5W-30 and a Supertech Filter was used from 1,000-3,000 miles. Notice how the short 2,000 mile "flush" really helped lower the wear metals in the engine; and notice how much more the metals dropped by the end of the second 5K run, when the vehicle had 13K on it. These three analysis reports prove that it typically takes 2-3 oil changes before the wear metals drop to a more reasonable level, usually by the 3rd fill.

Michael

JackSprat01

Thanks for the suggestion, I actually have a winter beater so I wouldn't have to overnight it. However, although I have no doubt the LE oil will still be good at 5k, I'll want to flush the engine anyway since it's so new. It's outta there at 5k.

RacialSlurs

the 5/5/5 method works just fine for any new car. no need for any lab costs, no need to worry about how the sample was obtained, unless of course you're trying to track a issue or want to know excatly what's in your oil.

the 5/5/5 method helps to flush shedding metal from the motor.

at 500 miles change the oil/filter, at 1000 miles change the oil/filter, and at 1500 miles change the oil/filter, then proceed with normal drop intervals.

and c'mon, the "additive pack" don't do squat, if it did so much good then every manufacturer would add a $2 dose of it and charge you $10 on the sticker price. Duralube is good (lol, blahhhhhhhahahah), why not use that?

SodaLuvr

I don't disagree with the 5/5/5 idea, but I do disagree with the method and the frequency. The three UOAs that I posted before your post proves that an early oil change at around 1000 miles, followed by a short 2-3K flush, followed by reasonable drain intervals will result in lower wear metals during the early part of an engine's life.

What I disagree with you on is the 500, 1000, 1500 idea. During the first 1500 miles, after the first oil change at 500 miles, it won't make much of a difference if you did a few more 500 mile OCIs since the engine is still breaking in. Wear metals will be high, you're probably going to be wasting oil by changing every 500 miles. By the third fill and around 6,000-8,000 miles, the wear metals will typically read at more reasonable levels, like it did in the Corolla on its third fill, and first 5K OCI at the 8K mark. Thus, I normally recommend to people that they do their first oil/filter change between 500-1000 miles, run a short 2,000 mile interval with a conventional, then switch to the synthetic of their choice and do 5-6K OCIs.

There is clearly a reason why Honda put a king sized dose of molybdenum in the oil. Some say its to protect the rings, others say its from an assembly line lube. We really don't know. What we can do is to find the closest replacement to the factory fill, which is Havoline 5W-30. Right now, I'm trying to get a site sponsorer on BITOG to run a VOA of the Havoline 5W-20 for us, so that we'll know whether its the same as the 5W-30. If so, I'd rather use that instead of a 5W-30 since the 5W-20 Havoline is an excellent oil in terms of protection and shear stability.

Michael

Xpditor

...and start-up is when most wear can occur as the oil hasn't gotten all around the engine yet. Some additives are there to leave a film on the cylinder walls, cam lobes, and bearings but it is still important to get the oil pressure up and delivered as quickly as possible.

For this reason, the oils that are thinner when cold/cool are delivered quicker and prevent wear. A 0W is thus better, IMO, than a 5W or a 10W (for start up).

Also, it is NOT wise to rev the engine at all until it has reached it's operating temperature. When starting out driving, I keep the RPMs below 2000 until the temperature needle has gotten to the half-way area. Our TLs warm up rather quickly. Then, I still don't like to rev more than 3000 RPMs until I have about ten minutes of operation.

There are several reasons for this that don't meet the eye initially. When the engine is cold, the fuel enrichening function is putting more fuel into the cylinders and some can find its way into the oil.

2002 Maxima SE

So, wouldn't a second UOA confirm this....no?

Road Rage

You are right, we don't. But when i visited the AMG plant last year, to watch them assemble an E55 engine, they used NO moly in any part of the assembly as best I could tell - it was just Mobil1. I asked the PR guy shuttling us around if I was wrong, and he indicated I was not. Hard to believe at least some of it is not used on the high stress pouints, such as the cam lobes, but the jury is out. Maybe someone at a Honda engine assembly plant can help us out - there is a guy at the S2KI.COm who is tight with Honda, so I will ask him.

Road Rage

1) Yes, there are additives that remain on the high stress points such as the cam lobes to protect unbder boundary librication conditions. And esters have a polarity affinity that keeps some of the oil up there even after extended periods of non-use, attracted to the neg charge of the metal in the engine.

2) Thinner is better up to a point, but I would not use a 0w or even a -10w unless I lived in the Arctic. Thinner is better in practical terms only if the recommend oil's 32degF cSt (its "W" rating") performance is inadequate to allow adequate full pressure to be achieved in "X" seconds, to reach homeostatic hydrodynamic lubrication. Once the HL status is achieved, the "oil wedge" minimizes any frictional wear. But with a 5w20, or any good sysnoil or 10w or less, the issue of oil pressure "speed of delivery" is not going to be significant that a vis not recommended by Honda be considered. Usually, a 0w20 neither has the high temp vis or shear stability of a 5w20 or 30w.

3) The issue of start-up wear is not fully understood, and often is exaggerated in terms of the oil's contribution. As you rightly stated, fuel dilution leading to acid formation is possible, but there are also theories that condensate of the water from combustion on the cold cylinder walls is a greater factor leading to > acidification of the lubricant (still, the add pack's pH buffers should deal with that). My thinking is that start-up wear is more an issue of the various metals reaching their operating temperature, and hence operating tolerances, quickly, and with good engineering of the parts to minimize wear while they are getting there.

RR.

Lore

I've been reading the posts on this forum about the merits of 5w30 vs that of 5w20 and I'm still not clear on what to use. I went and bought 12 qts of Havoline 5w30 mineral oil today at Walmart, but will not hesitate to return it for 5w20 if it's a better product to use. I keep hearing that 5w30 can get too thick at high temperatures, causing you to lose a little bit of fuel efficiency, but how much is "a little?" Will I see my average MPG drop from 21 to 19, or is it so insignificant that I won't even notice the difference?

I live in California where the summers can get pretty hot, but I don't know if I'd really benefit from the shear stability of a 30w oil.

edit: Reason I went with 5w30 is because the Walmart I went to did not have any 5w20 Havoline.

Xpditor

You're going to get more than one opinion on that.

I can tell you from experience that I put Mobil 1 10W-30 in my TL at the first oil change and my average MPG dropped one (1) from 22 to 21. I think it feels a little less "snappy" but that could be all in my head.

Road Rage likes a 30 weight oil with as little spread between the summer and winter ratings. E.g. 10W-30 because used oil analysis show it holds up a little better against shearing because of fewer VIs (viscosity improvers). RR holds that Honda/Acura recommend 5W-20 because the Feds make them recommend what they used in their fuel economy and horse power rating protocols. He feels that, if not for that, they would prolly recommend 10W-30 like most car mftrs in this country. Note that in Europe, the performance autos usually recommend 10 or 20W-40.

That made sense to me so I followed RR's advice and, in addition, followed his other advice to add 15 oz. of Valvoline MaxLife Engine Protector to the Mobil 1 for its molybdenum content. Honda/Acuras come with high moly content. The factory warns in the owner's manual not to change the oil before the MID says to because it is "special break-in oil." UOAs show the only thing special about it is the high moly content.

In fact, the Havoline that you bought happens to have almost the same moly content as the factory fill from Acura and is a highly reputed oil. You can't go wrong with either 5W-20 or 5W-30. They are both good. Their thickness or viscosity is quite similar. In higher heat and stressful operation, I would feel better with the safety margins of the 5W-30 but it's a matter of personal preference. Neither will hurt the TL. You might give up a slight edge on the fuel economy but I doubt you would notice it. It might amount to an extra 5-10 miles range per tankful. Maybe.

Equally important is to get a good filter. Mobil 1, Purolator Pure One, are good. Stay away from Fram IMO. Their construction leaves a lot to be desired. That's my personal opinion and not that of Acurazine.com.

Lore

Xpditor:

Thanks - you summed it up very well, and confirms why I bought 5w30 at the store today. I figured that the extra protection the 30 weight oil gives me will pay for itself in the stop and go Bay Area traffic that I have to endure daily. And the 5w rating is still the same, so that side won't really suffer.

The very reason I bought Havoline was due to its high moly content. In some of Michael Wan's posts, he mentions that if you were to drain the factory oil at about 1000 miles, you could replace it with Havoline and suffer no ill effects. However, no one really mentioned anything about using Havoline long term.

In any case, I figure since our family's Accord drinks 5w30 and our Pilot asks for 5w20, I could standardize on one type of oil and save some cash. However, I also bought some Chevron 10w30 today since it comes out to .59 a quart after rebates. I was going to use this for our 94 Camry beater, but I hear the Chevron stuff is quite similar to the Havoline stuff, so maybe I'll use the Chevron stuff in my TL sometime this summer.

Anyone have experiences using Chevron's oils?

Repecat

Lore.....I agree that Xpditors comments pretty well sum up the situation, at least for my purposes. As to Chevrons oils, they have always been pretty good I think. I now wonder if there are now similarities between Chevron and Havoline oils since Chevron and Texaco merged within the last year.

Lore

Hey repecat,

If you go to Havoline's site they talk about how Shell was able to use the Havoline name until late 2003 (http://www.havoline.com/products/na/faq.html). However, I wouldn't be surprised if the base oils were the same, and the Havoline just had different additives or what not added to it.

I figured with 17 quarts of Havoline 5w30 I can service the three Honda-based cars that need 5w20 or 5w30 in my family, and the other 12 qts of Chevron 10w30 will go to the Camry.

If anyone else has any experience using 5w30 -- specifically Havoline -- please post

SodaLuvr

Its perfectly fine to use a 5W-30 when a 5W-20 is unavaliable, but in most driving conditions, a 5W-20 is sufficient unless you are putting the engine under severe stress by Auto crossing, racing, etc.

Though 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils are far superior in terms of HT/HS scores, 5W-20 oils don't shear very much despite popular belief.

From the UOAs that I've seen of 5W-20 Havoline and Motorcraft Blend, they have proven to be very shear stable in real world applications for most drivers. They have shown fantastic wear, and a 5W-30 won't give you any additional benefits except under conditions that I've mentioned above, racing, auto crossing, etc.

Michael

JRL

Hi Everyone,

I am coming up on my first oil change, about 4K miles. I want to be sure to use an oil with the correct properties as suggested in this thread. This thread is going back a few years and I'm looking for some advice.

Two questions:

I am having a tough time finding havoline oil in my area. Are there any other brands that have the high moly content? It seems quite difficult to find this type of information, even on the oil manufacturer's web page.

If Havoline is still the best route, is the Havoline of 2008 the same as Havoline of 2005? Do you suggest the synthetic Havoline or the standard dino oil?

Thanks in advance for the help!

S PAW 1

Royal Purple is a good high moly oil.

Simba91102

You know I read most of this thread, and I'm curious what all this means to the 99.99999% of us that change are oil and filter when we're supposed to and use the commonly available materials (and that's all). Sorry, but I can't help but find this jibber jabber a little over the top.

Oh, and aside from what may be inferred from this 3 year old thread, If you're going to do oil changes at 4K miles (a waste in my book), any name brand oil should suffice. I've been using K&N filters, or the Honda replacement filters should be fine. You may want to consider changing to synthetic; it offers more protection and will stay good longer (you may also want to extend your change interval if you do).

BEAR-AvHistory

No much if anything.

Been driving & changing my oil since 1959 & have never lost a street driven engine for any reason. That includes a few cars I have bought used, with unknown prior care, Including a Z-28 with 45,000 miles on it when I got it.

It also includes high performance cars like 409 Chevy's 421 Pontiac super duties GTO's etc.

That being said, except for my '67 Corvette as far as I can remember the most mileage I ever put on a car was around 150,000. Generally I sell them by about 125,000

If the oil meets the SAE standards & it meets the manufactures standards & will go the normal distance between changes with a safety margin.

An interesting side note many here are obsessing about 3,000 & 4.000 mile change intervals & my 2004 BMW 330's standard MID oil change Nanny kicks in at 15,000 miles. Go figure?

I also wonder about the value of an oil analyses on break-in oil. If it did not have a lot of trash in it that would be an amazing occurrence.

Xpditor

Havoline is pretty ordinary oil in these parts and is carried by AutoZone and most of the auto parts store chains. I'm speaking of the regular dino oil, not the synthetic.

The reason for the concern in NEW Acuras is that the factory says to leave the factory oil in for proper break-in. By lab analysis, the only thing unique about the factory fill is the high Moly content.

You can go to www.bobistheoilguy.com if you want to see a virgin oil analysis of Havoline compared with the analysis of the factory fill. They are almost the same.

I don't remember the moly content of Royal Purple but WalMart has started to carry it. That oil site will have an analysis of it as well.

As to overkill? Probably. But oil=cheap; engines=expensive.

Modern Dino oils are just about as good as synthetic these days. I would use either with confidence. But, for the initial break-in, I would go with Acura's advice. They would know; they have to pay the warranty claims.

piluc001

I I'm wondering how we do to reset the computer of the car after remplacing my old oil!!!!

SouthernBoy

It's in your owner's manual.

o Go to your oil life display and select A or B for your trip miles (this will reset to zero).

o Press and hold the reset for 10 seconds and another display will appear.

o Press and hold for another 10 seconds then press the reset one more time.

01tl4tl

it amazing what info is found in the OWNER manual~
If you cant find yours, here is the free download from acura- click year then model
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...01_OMANUAL.asp