Ethanol
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,885
Likes: 406
From: KS/TX
Ethanol
Opinions about ethanol? Does anyone here avoid E-gas or stations that use E10?
I've heard mixed opinions about it including reduced MPG and reduced horse power.
I've heard mixed opinions about it including reduced MPG and reduced horse power.
People can still avoid gas with ethanol? I haven't seen an ethanol free fuel here around Chicago in atleast a decade.
I'm not too worried about it. My car seems to pull nicely through all gears, and last tank I averaged 25mpg without ever touching a highway. Can't argue too much about that :-)
I'm not too worried about it. My car seems to pull nicely through all gears, and last tank I averaged 25mpg without ever touching a highway. Can't argue too much about that :-)
Avoid it if you can. I used to run pure 91 when I lived in Wisconsin. Now I run E10 93 in Chicago. I noticed a 2-3 mpg drop (manually calculated) on the highway.
You can use this site to see if there are any pumps near you. Otherwise you've gotta live with what you've got.
http://pure-gas.org/
You can use this site to see if there are any pumps near you. Otherwise you've gotta live with what you've got.
http://pure-gas.org/
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Racer
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 440
Likes: 68
From: Miami, FL
Avoid it if you can. I used to run pure 91 when I lived in Wisconsin. Now I run E10 93 in Chicago. I noticed a 2-3 mpg drop (manually calculated) on the highway.
You can use this site to see if there are any pumps near you. Otherwise you've gotta live with what you've got.
http://pure-gas.org/
You can use this site to see if there are any pumps near you. Otherwise you've gotta live with what you've got.
http://pure-gas.org/
06 Anthracite TL
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,997
Likes: 335
From: Myrtle Beach, SC as of 5/2016
Just be careful if they ever sell E15 and make sure you don't use it (there was conjecture about bringing it to market but it never really took off). As for E10, it's all that's available here in NJ- as far as I know, there's no 'pure gas' stations here.
Ethanol 10% E10 will yield a slight decrease in mpg, stated 2-3% but ethanol in itself is @ 115 octane. The oxygen content is what reduces the emissions and will better clean the fuel system and as it has a higher octane there should be no performance problems. Only problem with the E10 is that it attracts moisture and separation can occur, but in automobiles most don't experience this, at least I haven't and the cars sit for months, but not good for older carb vehicles, esp. one that sits.
Just remember that 10% is the max, but in reality the blend differs greatly as there is no mandatory testing, probably between 9-10% at this time.
Just remember that 10% is the max, but in reality the blend differs greatly as there is no mandatory testing, probably between 9-10% at this time.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,885
Likes: 406
From: KS/TX
I found this on another forum discussing the same topic.
I don't know what it means but he used big words and math equations so it must be right.
"Straight gasoline has 114k BTU per gallon. Straight ethanol has 76k BTU per gallon, a 90/10 mixture would have approximataly 110k BTU per gallon (114k * 0.9 + 76k * 0.1). The E10 gasoline gallon equivalent 1.036 (114k/110k = 1.036). Basically, your engine will produce 3.4 percent less power per power stroke on E10 than it would on straight gasoline because there is 3.4 percent less energy in the same quantity of fuel. To make the same power per stroke would require 1.036 times more fuel induced into the combustion chamber."
I don't know what it means but he used big words and math equations so it must be right.
"Straight gasoline has 114k BTU per gallon. Straight ethanol has 76k BTU per gallon, a 90/10 mixture would have approximataly 110k BTU per gallon (114k * 0.9 + 76k * 0.1). The E10 gasoline gallon equivalent 1.036 (114k/110k = 1.036). Basically, your engine will produce 3.4 percent less power per power stroke on E10 than it would on straight gasoline because there is 3.4 percent less energy in the same quantity of fuel. To make the same power per stroke would require 1.036 times more fuel induced into the combustion chamber."
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,521
Likes: 1,824
From: MAGA country
For me, there's been no measurable difference in MPG running E10 nor can my "butt dyno" tell a difference....
I sure am glad someone started a thread on this since it's never been discussed before.
I sure am glad someone started a thread on this since it's never been discussed before.
This conversation is old hat 
, but it's fun to talk about anyway. It's this easy:
1st - Yes, many have experienced this phenomenon, that is, a consistent 10% decrease in MPG from the 10% etOH in gasoline. From a chemical standpoint, etOH contains only a fraction of the energy that is found is gasoline. Therefore, via simply chemistry, you're going to suffer an equal mileage loss equivilant to the reduced energy potential from added etOH. Usually it's less than 10% since etOH contains some energy (just not nearly as much as gasoline). So while it burns much cleaner than gasoline, you're simply having to use more gasoline to get the same result yielding no actual pollution reduction.
2nd - The reason etOh is in gasoline is NOT because it's somehow better for the environment. After accounting for milage loss, we're breaking even (actually, not even that, see "3rd"). etOH is in gasoline because of the ethanol/corn lobby convincing the government to add it.
3rd - Adding etOH is actually worse for the environment because of the energy (in the form of fossil fuels - coal and oil) required to manufacture ethanol.
It's a lose/lose for the american consumer but a great way for government lobbiests to line their pockets. It's a steaming pile of horse
, but it's fun to talk about anyway. It's this easy:1st - Yes, many have experienced this phenomenon, that is, a consistent 10% decrease in MPG from the 10% etOH in gasoline. From a chemical standpoint, etOH contains only a fraction of the energy that is found is gasoline. Therefore, via simply chemistry, you're going to suffer an equal mileage loss equivilant to the reduced energy potential from added etOH. Usually it's less than 10% since etOH contains some energy (just not nearly as much as gasoline). So while it burns much cleaner than gasoline, you're simply having to use more gasoline to get the same result yielding no actual pollution reduction.
2nd - The reason etOh is in gasoline is NOT because it's somehow better for the environment. After accounting for milage loss, we're breaking even (actually, not even that, see "3rd"). etOH is in gasoline because of the ethanol/corn lobby convincing the government to add it.
3rd - Adding etOH is actually worse for the environment because of the energy (in the form of fossil fuels - coal and oil) required to manufacture ethanol.
It's a lose/lose for the american consumer but a great way for government lobbiests to line their pockets. It's a steaming pile of horse
Agreed. As usual, a small group of people get rich, we all pay the price, it's the new American way.
Ethanol has about 1/2 the energy content of gasoline so you have to burn twice as much to get the same power. Or said another way you get 1/2 the mpg. The plus is it's led to huge OEM fuel injectors. In the old days, injectors capable of supporting 800hp with only 6 of them idled terribly and had bad street manners; they were not linear through their flow range and did not like the super short pulsewidth required at idle.
Now we have large injectors as OEM equipment on many flex fuel cars that have great street manners and are used as aftermarket injectors on many high hp gasoline engines. Many flex fuel cars also have huge gas tanks which is nice when you run it on gasoline. Some of our work vehicles have 35 gallon tanks where they used to hold 22-ish gallons.
But yeah, if the car has not been optimized for this fuel, mileage sucks. If these a**holes did not lower the octane of the gasoline mixed with ethanol we would have higher octane with 10% ethanol but of course they use a lower octane gasoline and bring the octane back up with the ethanol mix. The ECU would see little to no knock retard and it would advance timing slightly, making up for part of the mpg loss but that's too much to ask for.
As is typical for the government, they do a piss poor job of "research", not that they actually care about what's better for us or the environment. Sure, the ethanol mix is ever so slightly cleaner through the tailpipe which is the selling point to the general public. However, you're burning a larger volume of it due to the lower BTU content. It also takes a ton of hydrocarbon fuel to produce Ethanol. In the end it's worse for the environment but hey, it's cleaner out the tailpipe and leaving out all of the other facts makes it easy to sell to the public. Kind of like electric cars. They have "zero emissions". I guess that's true, the car puts out no emissions.... but the coal burning power plant 100 miles away that supplied the energy puts out a whole hell of a lot more pollutants than a modern ULEV or PZEV car does for the same power.
My TL with the 3rd cat removed had it's first official smog test which is it's second test. The first one when it had a few thousand miles on it had almost zero hydrocarbons. This last one with 120,000 miles had absolutely zero hydrocarbons. While that's not the only pollutant we're concerned with, show me a coal burning power plant that puts out that low of emissions for a given power output. Ethanol mix in the fuel is not needed nor is it good for the car or the environment. If they actually cared about mpg they would have left the gasoline's octane the same and let the car manufacturers take advantage of the 95-96 octane with more ignition timing to get back some of the losses.
Another problem with ethanol is it can cause the car to run leaner. The ECU has a target AFR to hit under various conditions and it uses the 02 sensors to make sure it's hitting that target. Introduce the ethanol mix without changing the target and you end up with a lean condition...... Say it's shooting for 14.7:1, stoich for gasoline and it hits the target AFR as it should. The ECU and 02 sensors are doing their job just fine. The problem is, 14.7 is very lean for ethanol. With only a 10% mix the car still runs and it runs acceptable but it most definitely is not going to run at it's best.
I'm going off topic but I believe diesel is the best thing we currently have, at least in the near future. Emissions are now low. They no longer sound like a diesel or smell like a diesel or have NVH like a diesel. My friend's Jetta TDI gets 44mpg in town and that's not driving it easy. He's hit 59-60mpg on the freeway a couple times driving it nicely. No batteries and no coal burning power plants to supply the power.
Ethanol has about 1/2 the energy content of gasoline so you have to burn twice as much to get the same power. Or said another way you get 1/2 the mpg. The plus is it's led to huge OEM fuel injectors. In the old days, injectors capable of supporting 800hp with only 6 of them idled terribly and had bad street manners; they were not linear through their flow range and did not like the super short pulsewidth required at idle.
Now we have large injectors as OEM equipment on many flex fuel cars that have great street manners and are used as aftermarket injectors on many high hp gasoline engines. Many flex fuel cars also have huge gas tanks which is nice when you run it on gasoline. Some of our work vehicles have 35 gallon tanks where they used to hold 22-ish gallons.
But yeah, if the car has not been optimized for this fuel, mileage sucks. If these a**holes did not lower the octane of the gasoline mixed with ethanol we would have higher octane with 10% ethanol but of course they use a lower octane gasoline and bring the octane back up with the ethanol mix. The ECU would see little to no knock retard and it would advance timing slightly, making up for part of the mpg loss but that's too much to ask for.
As is typical for the government, they do a piss poor job of "research", not that they actually care about what's better for us or the environment. Sure, the ethanol mix is ever so slightly cleaner through the tailpipe which is the selling point to the general public. However, you're burning a larger volume of it due to the lower BTU content. It also takes a ton of hydrocarbon fuel to produce Ethanol. In the end it's worse for the environment but hey, it's cleaner out the tailpipe and leaving out all of the other facts makes it easy to sell to the public. Kind of like electric cars. They have "zero emissions". I guess that's true, the car puts out no emissions.... but the coal burning power plant 100 miles away that supplied the energy puts out a whole hell of a lot more pollutants than a modern ULEV or PZEV car does for the same power.
My TL with the 3rd cat removed had it's first official smog test which is it's second test. The first one when it had a few thousand miles on it had almost zero hydrocarbons. This last one with 120,000 miles had absolutely zero hydrocarbons. While that's not the only pollutant we're concerned with, show me a coal burning power plant that puts out that low of emissions for a given power output. Ethanol mix in the fuel is not needed nor is it good for the car or the environment. If they actually cared about mpg they would have left the gasoline's octane the same and let the car manufacturers take advantage of the 95-96 octane with more ignition timing to get back some of the losses.
Another problem with ethanol is it can cause the car to run leaner. The ECU has a target AFR to hit under various conditions and it uses the 02 sensors to make sure it's hitting that target. Introduce the ethanol mix without changing the target and you end up with a lean condition...... Say it's shooting for 14.7:1, stoich for gasoline and it hits the target AFR as it should. The ECU and 02 sensors are doing their job just fine. The problem is, 14.7 is very lean for ethanol. With only a 10% mix the car still runs and it runs acceptable but it most definitely is not going to run at it's best.
I'm going off topic but I believe diesel is the best thing we currently have, at least in the near future. Emissions are now low. They no longer sound like a diesel or smell like a diesel or have NVH like a diesel. My friend's Jetta TDI gets 44mpg in town and that's not driving it easy. He's hit 59-60mpg on the freeway a couple times driving it nicely. No batteries and no coal burning power plants to supply the power.
Last edited by justnspace; Apr 28, 2014 at 06:04 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,521
Likes: 1,824
From: MAGA country
Re: ^^^^
Uh, not correct... Please don't blindly repost crap. Thank you 
Per unit volume, pure ethanol has about 2/3 of the energy of gasoline, or 66.7%.
It is indeed less than 10%. The total energy in E10 is 96.7% of straight gasoline, assuming that the E10 in question does indeed have a full 10% ethanol. E10 only means "up to 10% ethanol". The exact content of ethanol in E10 varies, so not all E10 (if any) has a full 10% ethanol.
So, worst case (and assuming you are filling up with a full 10% E10 variety), mileage should suffer by 3.3%, or on our TLs, about 1 MPG.
In practice, I haven't been able to see that at all. I've been running E10 for at least 4-5 years up here in ND and I still get above EPA estimates for highway driving (30-31 MPG).
Per unit volume, pure ethanol has about 2/3 of the energy of gasoline, or 66.7%.
So, worst case (and assuming you are filling up with a full 10% E10 variety), mileage should suffer by 3.3%, or on our TLs, about 1 MPG.
In practice, I haven't been able to see that at all. I've been running E10 for at least 4-5 years up here in ND and I still get above EPA estimates for highway driving (30-31 MPG).
I'm not trippin either. 
I get 21-22mpg in pure city with lots of stomping on the skinny pedal with up to 10% ethanol fuel.
I'm sure if i got on the freeway at a constant 60-65mph I'd able to get up to 30mpg.
in other words, E10 is all I know. I've never had fuel without it
I get 21-22mpg in pure city with lots of stomping on the skinny pedal with up to 10% ethanol fuel.
I'm sure if i got on the freeway at a constant 60-65mph I'd able to get up to 30mpg.
in other words, E10 is all I know. I've never had fuel without it
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
From: Pensacola, FL
just fyi, 14.7:1 is not "very lean" for ethanol. The parts air vs fuel can be tuned the same as straight gasoline. Just because their stoichometric ratio is larger, doesnt mean it gets tuned different. It only means more fuel is used to obtain X AFR vs gasoline.
I have never tuned straight gasoline before though so I cannot comment on gasoline and e10 but i can bet there is a very low difference in injector pulsewidth.
I'm looking forward to tuning my TL and MDX once KTuner releases the reflash package for them.
I have never tuned straight gasoline before though so I cannot comment on gasoline and e10 but i can bet there is a very low difference in injector pulsewidth.
I'm looking forward to tuning my TL and MDX once KTuner releases the reflash package for them.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 440
Likes: 68
From: Miami, FL
"...From a chemical standpoint, etOH contains only a fraction of the energy that is found is gasoline...."
Which is still a fraction.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,885
Likes: 406
From: KS/TX
I'm not trippin either.
I get 21-22mpg in pure city with lots of stomping on the skinny pedal with up to 10% ethanol fuel.
I'm sure if i got on the freeway at a constant 60-65mph I'd able to get up to 30mpg.
in other words, E10 is all I know. I've never had fuel without it
I get 21-22mpg in pure city with lots of stomping on the skinny pedal with up to 10% ethanol fuel.
I'm sure if i got on the freeway at a constant 60-65mph I'd able to get up to 30mpg.
in other words, E10 is all I know. I've never had fuel without it
Pro
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 705
Likes: 137
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,863
Likes: 439
Ethanol 10% E10 will yield a slight decrease in mpg, stated 2-3% but ethanol in itself is @ 115 octane. The oxygen content is what reduces the emissions and will better clean the fuel system and as it has a higher octane there should be no performance problems. Only problem with the E10 is that it attracts moisture and separation can occur, but in automobiles most don't experience this, at least I haven't and the cars sit for months, but not good for older carb vehicles, esp. one that sits.
Just remember that 10% is the max, but in reality the blend differs greatly as there is no mandatory testing, probably between 9-10% at this time.
Just remember that 10% is the max, but in reality the blend differs greatly as there is no mandatory testing, probably between 9-10% at this time.
Corn is for eating, not burning as fuel....
the overexplainer
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,287
Likes: 385
From: OC, CA
ethanol will break down and leave a green film all over your fuel system within a matter of months. I avoid it like the plague when it comes to my scooter as even when I run the machine dry there is still just enough left to cause problems. I really dislike taking scooter apart once every 2 years to clean the green crap out of the carb...
Corn is for eating, not burning as fuel....
Corn is for eating, not burning as fuel....
best bet for long term storage is to either drain the carbs and tank manually or fill it up to the top, put marine stabil in it, and ride it around to circulate the treated fuel.
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
From: Pensacola, FL
ethanol will break down and leave a green film all over your fuel system within a matter of months. I avoid it like the plague when it comes to my scooter as even when I run the machine dry there is still just enough left to cause problems. I really dislike taking scooter apart once every 2 years to clean the green crap out of the carb...
Corn is for eating, not burning as fuel....
Corn is for eating, not burning as fuel....
you can add fuel stabilizer to gas tanks if you plan on leaving it sitting for a bit and it will help keep it from breaking down and gumming up the carb jets and bowl.
I run a fuel cutoff switch on my lawnmower. when i am done, i shut the valve and let the engine run itself out of gas which only takes a few minutes of idling.
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