Just a quick question about engine braking. Those of you with the manual tranny, you guys downshift through the gears and engine brake or just ride the gear you're already in and put it into neutral when coming to a stop? I want to save my brakes a little, but I don't want to do it at the expense of a new transmission. Thanks!

 

The engine is there to speed you up, not to slow you down. Don't engine brake. Use your brakes to slow you down. Brake pads are alot cheaper to replace then a tranny.

 

I'm no 6MT genius, but it is not necessary to downshift through the gears and engine brake, when you are coming to a full stop. You can ride the gear you are already in when coming to a stop, but it is not necessary to put it in neutral, unless you will be stopped for a considerable amount of time. Also, you don't want to ride the gear too long because then you will be lugging the engine.

When coming to a stop in an emergency situation, and you need more help in stopping quickly, you can downshift to make use of engine braking.

So, it is all a matter of shifting at the right time, whether up or down. The tach is there to help you.

 

its not bad to do that. read your manual it even tells u to downshift

 

The only part I found about downshifting, other than the engine can be damaged if you downshift to the wrong gear, was to get extra braking, which can help you maintain a safe speed and prevent your brakes from overheating while going down a steep hill. Is this the part you were referring to? I think this was intended more for specific situations, and not a general rule.

As seamg said, "Brake pads are alot cheaper to replace then a tranny. "

 

I agree with Ron A and seamg's comments, but I've also saved the value of my entire car by engine braking on slick, wet and icy roads.

Just my thoughts..

 

Yes, in icy situations downshifting to slow down can be a help, but lets not forget about ABS.

Also, don't keep the car in gear with your foot on the clutch when you come to a full stopeven if only for a short time. Get off the clutch otherwise you will wear out the pivot.

It is my understanding that in autocross, downshifting is really reserved for essentially one situation, that is, getting the car into a lower gear before a turn so that you will be in the best gear to accelerate out of the turn.

 

Hmm...most people have been saying what I originally thought about engine braking when coming to a stop. I was just wondering if there were advances to transmission technology to lessen wear and tear with engine braking because my previous car (2001 Audi A4 5AT) would engine brake when slowing down/coming to a stop. It would do it at low rpm's, but nevertheless it's engine braking. Hmm...they advertised it in the Audi manual too.

Am I totally off because I'm comparing auto with manual? But, I don't see why they should be any different...

 

Hmmm... I have to respectfully disagree. There is nothing wrong with downshifting. The only thing you're wearing out is the clutch plate. And this, like your brake pads, is something that gets replaced anyway over time. If you shift into the wrong gear (like from 6th to 2nd at 140mph), then you might do some serious damage... but that is no different than doing something else improper to wreck your car.

As for keeping your foot on the clutch when you come to a full stop... the pivot? The who? I've never heard of any problem with this. If you're talking about wearing out the throwout bearing, that has nothing to do with keeping your foot on the clutch at a stop. If you're talking about actually wearing the pivot in the clutch, it's going to be damaged over time by pushing in and letting out the clutch over and over -- not by holding it in any more than it would be damaged by sitting out all the time. After many times of being engaged and disengaged, the clutch fork and or bushing might start to wear. But I can't see how holding it in at a stop would do that.

 

Tire, so the only thing I'm wearing out is the clutch plate? You mentioned these get replaced over time. How long are these supposed to last? Changing just a clutch plate requires pulling out the whole tranny and considering how the majority of repair costs come from labor, I might as well change the whole transmission when that time comes. Changing tranny > changing brake pads when it comes to $$$.

 

MooFassa, Bottom line, you're gonna do what your gonna do. I'd recommned doing some research on your own rather than basing your driving solely on the forum's advice. I gave you my thoughts and I think if you search the forum, you will find that most 6MT drivers would agree. Hope that helps.

 

Changing a transmission and replacing a clutch are two completely different things... that's like saying because you're replacing pads, you might as well replace your whole braking system... or since you're changing tires, you should just get new wheels.

And I wouldn't say that the only thing that wears is the clutch plate, but you can't say that the only thing that wears when you use brakes are the pads, either. If you're not slipping the clutch too much when shifting or doing something goofy like holding the car on a 45 degree incline by riding the clutch or doing drag race starts at every traffic light, it'll last you quite some time -- I would guess a fair amount longer than the average set of brake pads in the average car with the average driver (whatever that means).

It is true, as mentioned above, that in AutoX, you pretty much never use engine braking... but that has little to do with why you should or shouldn't use it on the street. During AutoX, you're only goal is to go as quickly as possible around the track. If you're braking, you're braking as hard as you can; and if you're accelerating, you're accelerating as fast as possible. Engine braking is worthless because it does nothing but slow you down inefficiently. However, there is nothing wrong with a little engine braking on the road.

Try riding a motorcycle w/o engine braking... it's a major part of controlling the speed of the bike.

But like it is mentioned above, do what you feel is best. I work part time at a gun... firearms are kind of another passion of mine. People ask me for advice all day long about guns and calibers and ammo. I tell them what I think and I follow it up with this disclaimer and I think it applies here as well:

"Keep in mind that this is just one idiot's opinion. As far as you're concerned, you should consider that I am an idiot. Also, everyone else on the internet is an idiot. Everyone you talk to on the street is an idiot. You're friends are morons, and your family are all dolts. We're all stupid, and not a one of us has the slightest clue what we're talking about. It's completely up to you to read and educate yourself. You are responsible to make up your own mind. Then and only then will you be qualified to tell other people what *you* think... then you, too, can be an idiot like the rest of us."

 

TireSmoke....I could not agree with you more. I think we are actually on exactly the same page as far was what to do and what not to do. As you said, and I'll say again, you gotta get out there and practice and practice and refine your technique, I know that's what I'm doing....I'm no pro driver....far from it....just another know-it-all on this forum.

 

Depends what you mean by bad. The clutch does not wear when it is engaged - it wears when you change gears. Frequent downshifting to slow the car, even with proper rev-matching, increases wear and tear on the drivetrain. No doubt.

I looked in the manual, and found nowhere that it recommended engine braking, except when descending a steep grade, where the brakes or the fluid or both could overheat.

I agree that brakes are cheaper and easier to repair than a tranny/clutch.

 

To clarify TireSmoke's response and to the original poster:
A clutch should last AT LEAST a 100K miles if driven by a good driver (and avoiding the practices that TireSmoke alluded to). That said, mine probably will not, since I learned to drive stick on my TL. I'm still practicing "heel and toeing", seamless downshifting etc. etc.

I downshift to lower gears sometimes (but not during fast stops), but I definitely would not do it until I was used to downshifting. If you are not good, or practiced at blipping the throttle, what happens is this (and I speak from experience). You have your foot on the brake, and the clutch as you downshift to the next gear, but you slip the clutch to get a good smooth engagement in the lower gear. Essentially you are wearing out the clutch by riding it in gear. I've done it a few times, until I realized that I might as well brake, till I "almost" stop, then push in the clutch and pop it in neutral.

I do agree with TireSmoke and seamg that you should search through the forums, since they have a lot of info that have taught me a lot as well.

 

I just have to add my 0.02 cents here. I drove a 1992 Honda Civic for 12 years before picking up my TL. I can't tell you how many times I used the engine to bring me to sudden stops or slow down for lights or corners when coming in too hot. In those 12 years I never once had any probs with the engine. And in those 12 years I replaced the clutch once at around 100k. I sold that car with 142,000 miles and still in excellent condition. IMO there is nothing wrong with using the engine to help you slow down. Technology today should be way better than what my '92 Civic had so I will continue as such with my TL.

 

EXACTLY. This is all I'm saying. My point is not that one is better than the other... my point is that it really doesn't matter which you do if you do it right. You're consuming consumable parts either way. You're not "wrecking" your car. Treat it right and a Honda should last you quite some time.

 

If you wait at a light with the clutch depressed, you are putting undue stress on your release bearing. And as for clutch assemblies. Assuming the clutch was properly engineered (size, clamping pressure, material) and that it was properly installed (alignment, torque, etc), the most damaging thing that can happen to these parts are improper operating techniques. There is absolutely no reason why you can't get, at the minimum 150 to 200 thousand miles out of a clutch assembly.. barring racing or towing. Heck, even those numbers are probably low.

And if you know how to properly downshift, there is virtually no wear on these components, either. However, it is still a good practice to use the brakes most always and save downshifting when it's necessary (which it is frequently).

I'm going to include something here which may cause me some heartache because I'm quite certain it will raise some discussion and disagreement. But please treat it as a learning tool. It is a collection of some writings I did on another website.. redundant for sure, but I hope informative. Enjoy.

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Note: As it says, this is a collage of various postings I have made over the past one and a half years on the altimas.net website. So you are likely to see redundancy as well as a few other items of disarray. But enjoy and I hope you learn something.




PROPER MANUAL TRANSMISSION DRIVING TECHNIQUES

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!

Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing and other extreme conditions such as towing constitute a whole different approach and, as such, do not come under this.


Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.

Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.


Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.


Do's

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.

Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.



I spent some time teaching a lady with whom I worked 10 years ago these techniques when she purchased a new '92 Honda Accord LX. When I last spoke with her, she had well over 140,000 miles on the original clutch with no signs of slippage. So I'm not jerking anyone's chain here. Learn to operate a manual transmission correctly and you will reap the rewards by saving a lot of money. Plus you will be one of the few who know how to do this right.

I don't mean to set myself up here as some kind of guru because I am not. But I have been driving vehicles with manual transmissions for over 40 years. I have spent the time to perfect the process into an art form because when done correctly, that’s what it is. When I sold my '88 Mustang LX 302CID, it was 6 years old and had 77,000 miles on it. When the buyer drove it, he asked me when I replaced the clutch because to him, it felt very positive. I told him that I had never replaced it and that it was the original unit. I added that it wouldn't make any sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that is not very much wear. He had a little bit of a hard time believing this, but he did buy the car. Three months later, he called me up to let me know how much he liked the car and to tell me had had not wrapped it around a tree. He again asked about the clutch and I again told him that it was the original clutch.

I used to own a 1966 Chevelle SS396/360HP. I was the original owner of the car. For a period of about 2 years, I was street racing the car frequently on the weekends. At 83,000 miles when I sold it, it would still break traction in all four gears and the clutch had no slippage. It was tight and strong. Now granted, American cars have traditionally had stronger clutches than Japanese cars. This is changing because the Japanese are putting larger and stronger (torque) engines in their cars.



Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out a bit (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.

Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Double clutching was a technique that came about when earlier manual transmissions did not have synchronizers. If you did not double clutch, you would experience some serious gear grinding when shifting.

If you did not have synchronizers in your transmission, you would have had two choices when shifting gears: (1) put up with some really serious grinding and damage/breakage to gear teeth, or (2) manually match the speed of the gears in each selected shift so that you would eliminate the problems just mentioned in #1.

Suppose you are traveling in second gear, the engine is turning at 2500 RPM, and you are getting ready to shift to third. At the road speed you are going, let's say that once in third, your engine would be turning at 1800 RPM. When you remove your foot from the gas, the engine is going to loose RPMs quickly and by the time you get into third, the engine might only be turning 1200 RPM. Without synchronizers, you would need to raise the engine back up to 1800 RPM in order for the gears to mesh. By blipping the throttle and at the same time letting the clutch out some when you are passing through the neutral gate, you will both increase engine RPM and increase gear speed. As the engine RPMs fall back off, they will reach a point at which you will be able to complete the shift.

Since for years, manual transmissions have been fully synchronized, there is no need whatsoever to double clutch when upshifting and I definitely recommend against this practice.

Now downshifting is much like this, only in reverse. In other words, you are going from a higher gear to a lower gear so if your engine was turning at 2500 RPM and you wanted to shift to second, You would want to blip the throttle enough to raise engine speed to perhaps around 3200 - 3500 RPM.

When you are upshifting, the RPMs fall off and most people find it pretty easy to adjust to this and to add throttle at the right time so that when the clutch comes back out, they have the proper RPM's for the gear selection/road speed.

However, most people downshift by (1) removing their foot from the throttle, (2) moving the shifter into the next lower (or chosen) gear, then (3) slowly releasing the clutch while adding little or no throttle. This is NOT the proper manner in which to downshift. What you are doing in effect, is riding the clutch in reverse. In other words, you probably wouldn't dare attempt to start your car off in third gear because you would have to add a lot of throttle and really slip the clutch to get the car moving. When you downshift like the example I just gave, you are doing something similar to starting off in a higher gear, though it does take more energy to get a car moving from a dead start. Now if you double clutch during the downshift, you are spinning up the gears and the transition to the next gear will be quite smooth.


Junkyard asked a question about the concept of “passing through the neutral gate”. You don’t stop or stay in neutral. You are just passing through, so to speak. In your second question, you said I had mentioned to put the car in neutral when downshifting. Not exactly. Try this with the engine off.

Put the car in fourth. Depress the clutch and shift to third and let the clutch out. Now do the same thing, only this time as you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out some or a good deal and blip the throttle, then clutch back in, get into third, clutch comes out for the final time. That is the movement you want.

Incidentally, blipping the throttle is just a little stab at the petal, enough to raise RPMs to the desired level. You do not want to be on the throttle long because you will be in the process of shifting. Yes, this does take a lot of practice and may not come easily for many, but it is the best way, in fact the only proper way, to downshift because it very significantly reduces clutch and synchronizer wear (especially clutch), and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to do it quite fast.

The bottom line to all of this folks is to match engine speed to wheel speed in a given gear, and to do it in such a manner as to eliminate undue trauma to your drive train. I do this all of the time and have been downshifting like this since my late teens. I actually learned it from a magazine article (as I can best recall). If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly operate, all of the components and how they perform together, you will understand the beauty of the process.

Oh the grinding noise Junkyard hears when he starts letting up the clutch too quickly is most likely due to not having fully engaged the gear teeth and they separate (pop out of gear). That or he actually begins engaging the gear teeth before the clutch is fully depress so there is still some flywheel/disk/pressure plate contact.


One of the things I noticed right off the bat on my SE was that the clutch began to engage much too close to the floor for me (a contributor to the problem Junkyard has had). It was starting to engage about 1 inch from the floor, so I adjusted it out to 2 inches and it is fine. If you do this, just make sure you have the required toeplay, otherwise you will prematurely wear out your release bearing.

The purpose of letting the clutch out some as you pass through the neutral gate is to spin the gears up in preparation for the speed at which they must be at for the lower gear selection. This will allow you to get into that gear very easily. When you depress the clutch, you disengage the crankshaft from the transmission. The gears in the transmission will begin to slow down. By letting out the clutch some (or completely) in the neutral gate, you once again, MOMENTARILY, engage the full drive train and get the gears spinning. Only this time since you have blipped the throttle, they'll be spinning faster. As they slow down from the higher speed, your clutch will be coming out for the final time with the transmission in gear and the mesh will be smooth.

Try it both ways. Do it first the way you do it and notice that you have to add a little bit of force to get the shifter into gear. That's because the synchronizers are doing their job of gear speed meshing. Now try it the way I outlined and if you do it right, you will have virtually no resistance as you slip the shifter into your chosen gear.

Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.


To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.

 

RR, your thoughts are in line with what I originally thought. A few years back, the users from a VW forum pretty much said the same thing. I still used engine braking all the time on my '96 VW Passat VR6 until my clutch broke (~75k miles). I can't remember the specific part that broke, but I ended up just getting a new tranny because the cost of labor to rip the transmission open was pretty much the same as a new one.

However, when I got my '01 A4, it used engine braking to assist slowing down and that was an automatic. I thought transmission technology had improved a lot over the past 5 years from my '96 Passat to my '01 A4 if engine braking was built into the transmission. I wonder if the TL 5AT does the same thing?

Now that I'm back to a manual with the TL, it felt "natural" to engine brake when slowing...either to a light/stop sign/turn. I've been trying hard to NOT engine brake. I still end up doing it from time to time though. That's how my original question came up and I wanted to bounce the question off to the users here. I was wondering if transmission technology has gone far enough where engine braking would cause insignificant damage. If not, I'm going to continue to retrain myself because l think the cost associated with the higher rate of brake pad replacement/rotor resurfacing < the cost associated with a transmission replacement.

BTW...thanks for all of those who responded. Didn't mean to start a debate about this because I remember this being debated all the time on the VW forum a few years back.

 

OK, when it come to cars, I'm not an idiot, internet or not... However, My wife definitely has different opinions on other subjects.......

Coming from a mechanic with well over 25 years experience the two items you need to consider when downshifting are your clutch (disc/pressure plate) and your synchronizers for each gear. Like others have mentioned, if you don't perfect a near exact rpm of the engine to selected gear you will have wear to the clutch and synchronizers that you wouldn't if not downshifting. Is the wear going to be severe? Depends on how many times and how bad at the process you are....

Sure, sometimes downshifting is a good choice given a specific road condition etc. But, once again as others have mentioned, using your brakes is still the best in regards to maintenance cost and mechanical wear issues..

From someone who has repaired, rebuilt, and replaced everything mentioned above.

Smitty