I hate cars

The auto also has a torque convertor and shifts are done in miliseconds. Two important factors. I wish it would blip the throttle on downshifts wouldn't be hard to do in the engine management.

With the auto, if I lift off the gas quickly or I'm going down a hill, the transmission downshifts to help slow. If I let off the gas slowly on a level surface, the downshifts occur at much lower rpms just like any normal automatic.

I hate cars

I was 1/4 mile from home and was on the phone with a friend that out of coincidence was 4 cars behind me but couldn't see me. When I did the clutch drop he started laughing because he said it looked like someone was doing a burnout but smelled worse. Later that night I went to get in his Mustang to go to the gym and his car still smelled like my burned clutch.

The funny thing is I had already decided to get rid of the car in the next month and wanted to make sure it was dead before it hit the junkyard. I had a bet with some friends that it would withstand a 300 shot of nitrous for at least one 1/4 pass. Would of been fun in a faded orange/red 1987 Celica with a 300 shot... for a little while anyway.

mishar

Well, I knew from the beginning that we will disagree, but you are not the only one who is reading this. I can say that you and guys you are quoting are right. I only say that all this is outdated and that gains are disputable.

- Synchronizers and clutches of today are way better than they use to be;
- 5 – 6 speed gearboxes has close gear ratios, so les rev difference to be matched;
- large intake plenum, designed to create better breading at lower rpm’s and single throttle body makes rev matching blimp almost uncontrollable;
- brakes are so much better that they don’t need any help from engine;
- double clutching diverts drivers attention of more important things, especially if one is not very skilled.
- You never know if you actually overspined transmission when double clutching causing synchronizers to do the same job just in a different direction.

I can go on and on, but let me just conclude: double clutching is a skill of the past, just like manual ignition or mixture adjustment. Masters of outdated skills always oppose progress, but others, more practical people, embrace it and that’s the end of certain skill. Of course there are museums …

SouthernBoy

First let me say that I have no idea where you get the impression that I am embracing "outdated" techniques. Nothing could be further from the truth. Certain things are timeless. I can only suspect that by doing this, you are attempt to cancel my "argument". Doesn't work.. just ask around this sight.

- Synchronizers and clutches of today are way better than they use to be;
o Don't count on it. If I had to say which of these two had advanced more, it would be the synchronizers. One would have to weigh what makes a clutch better or not. Clamping pressure? Material? I can assure you that clutches made 40 years ago were every bit as good as today and in fact as far as serious American machinery, far stronger.

- 5 – 6 speed gearboxes has close gear ratios, so les rev difference to be matched;
o The fact is, the TL manual transmission is NOT a true close ratio box. The reason is the ratio spread between first and second gears is too wide. The rest of the ratios are fine. The rest of your statement is correct.

- large intake plenum, designed to create better breading at lower rpm’s and single throttle body makes rev matching blimp almost uncontrollable;
o Completely untrue. I can rev-match and double clutch my TL as well or better than most any other car I have owned. And I did it right from the first day I owned the car. Only thing I had to do is use my tach for the first week or two to get used to things because the exhaust was too quiet to use it as a guide.

- brakes are so much better that they don’t need any help from engine;
o True. There are a few exceptions to this when compared to a certain strain of mid-60's machines, but for the most part, you are right here. I almost never downshift for the sole purpose of slowing the car down, by the way.

- double clutching diverts drivers attention of more important things, especially if one is not very skilled.
o Yes and no. Yes if the driver is not skilled in this and not if he is. One could also argue that powering a window up or down or changing a radio station also diverts a driver's attention. You should ride with me sometime and see if this statement holds water.

- You never know if you actually overspined transmission when double clutching causing synchronizers to do the same job just in a different direction.
o Believe me, you will notice if you are aware of things. If you spun the engine up to fast during the double clutching action, it will be harder, and take a moment, to complete the shift because the synchronizers would have a harder time matching shaft speeds. If you do it correctly, it will almost feel as though the transmission is pulling your shifter into the next gear selection. There is a certain left hand turn I make every day on the way to work where this is very evident when I go into third gear for the turn.

As for your statements of, "Masters of outdated skills always oppose progress, but others, more practical people, embrace it and that’s the end of certain skill. Of course there are museums …", I find them to be quite insulting. These skills are by no means outdated. On the contrary, they are a mark of a knowledgeable and caring driver. If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps you do not know how to perform these skills and are therefore trying to defend a position of ignorance of a technique that is rather widespread and still practiced. If I am wrong about this, than so be it. A little humility is a wonderful thing.

SouthernBoy

Ok folks, one more time. Our fellow member asked a simple question here and received a slew of responses.. some good, some not so good, and some led to discussions which fostered less than informative answers and more along the lines of combative rhetoric. Opinions are fine. Facts are just that and are indisputable. We don't help each other or ourselves by being combative or vindictive.

Gentlemen, what say we stick to the topic and be a little more civil in our discourse.

Final

You tell em Southern No I dont downshift to slow down, only to keep up in traffic and keep the car in a good powerband range.

mishar

So far with not embracing antiques.

And you are double clutching all the way to the first gear?

Well, that really depends on what you owned, but the point is not what you can do. You are recommending double clutching to everybody. One would get feeling that nothing else is right.

Exactly. But I think that most people are not playing with buttons while braking.

No need. I believe you. But we are not talking about your skills.

I find them funny, but , as it seams, it depends how touchy one is.

Sure. It is really shame that technology is advancing so fast.

Not a good guess. I did my double clutching on my racing cars when brakes were fading after second round, but engine would blimp in a split second. Doing it with clumsy luxury car engine is just for entertainment. But then why not.

teomcdohl

Speaking of double clutching, I decided to give it a try today. It was a little interesting, but the concept of it isn't too difficult. I was in 4th gear, so I put my foot on the clutch, revved it, and put it into 3rd... it was really strange - it felt like I was upshifting, as in the engine didn't pull or slow down, rather the engine was louder and had more torque, but felt just fine.

Note : I did this on my 2000 Hyundai Elantra. Car kinda sucks, but might as well mess with the clutch.

Either way, I'd try it again. To get really good at a technique like this one would really have to pay attention to their car, their rpms, and really take note of it - revving the car in neutral is a completely different beast than revving the car in gear - I haven't really revved the car in neutral too much, so its quite different.

Honestly, it seems more of a racing technique to me, but to each their own. The clutch is meant to take a lot of abuse, same with the transmission... I think older transmissions were made with equal or better quality - the main difference between the two is technology - the technology in the newer ones really tell the story.

Thats just my

As far as everything else, its nice to hear the conversations between people, what they believe and their thought processes. Honestly, I don't mind if there are disagreements, or if people are talking about their beliefs, or their own cars... the story about the clutch was good for a laugh - burnt clutch reeks.. I had a friend who tried to get his car out of a snow ditch, and by rocking back and forth, back and forth.. he fried that clutch... then a few months over he flipped over the Ford Explorer...

Anyway, back to the sidelines I go

SouthernBoy

Based upon your description of what you did here, you left out the most important part when double clutching. As you blip the throttle when passing through neutral on your way to third gear, you must at the same time, release the clutch a bit to spin up the transmission input shaft. This is double clutching.

Our manual transmission is nowhere as strong as some other manuals, but it is perfectly adequate and fine for the task at hand in the TL. For example, it cannot hope to match the strength of the tranny used in the Z06 Corvette or even the stock Corvette. And perhaps the king of them all was the 4-speed M22 Muncie made in the 60's. A monster manual transmission capable of handling massive amounts of torque, it was called the "Rockcrusher".

Our clutch is also fine for the task at hand, but certainly not up to severe use such as serious racing. It wouldn't have a long and happy life doing that.

SouthernBoy

"So far with not embracing antiques."
o I admire anything that's good and catches my fancy. Would you call John Browning's 1911 semi-auto pistol and antique? This design is still used today and variations of it continue to appear in sidearms all over the world. And then there is the small block Chevy engine.

"And you are double clutching all the way to the first gear?"
o No sir, that would truly be rare, though not out of the realm of possibility should the need arise.

"Well, that really depends on what you owned, but the point is not what you can do. You are recommending double clutching to everybody. One would get feeling that nothing else is right."
o I have only owned one vehicle in my life that was my own personal driving machine with an automatic transmission. All others have been manuals. For a FWD car, my TL has a wonderful feel to the shifter and I find that the whole setup lends itself quite nicely to my method of operation. As with many, if not most, things in life, there is a right way and a wrong way and a host of ways in between to do things. Same goes with operating a manual transmission. I have a simple approach to this. I know what I do is correct because it is mechanically correct and that is the measure I use, not my feelings or beliefs about how I think it should be done. Another example is this. How many times have you noticed people who, when parking a car or leaving a parking space, turn their front wheels when the car is not moving? This is not correct. You should avoid doing this because of the stress it places on the steering components primarily. Most people do not know this. I avoid doing this because I know that mechanically it is not a sound thing to do. Sometimes that is inconvenient, but that's just the way it is.

"I find them funny, but , as it seams, it depends how touchy one is."
o Sensitive or touchy are two things I am not. I do have a few "buttons" but they have not been pushed here or nearly never on this sight. I am very un-PC and have a strong sense of humor so if your statement was meant in humor, that's a good thing.

"Sure. It is really shame that technology is advancing so fast."
o The biggest and most amazing advancements in automotive technology in the past, say, 20 years, has been in engine management science. The TL is a good example of this. Here you have a 3500 pound car being pulled around be a rather small 196 cubic inch V6 engine that is capable of sub 6-second 0-60 runs and quarter miles in the lower 14 second bracket, top speeds of around 153 MPH, and can deliver nearly 34 MPG on the highway with the A/C on, while still managing to be a ULEV. Now that's amazing. Modern cars produce lower emissions at off idle than cars did 40 years ago with their engines off. Go figure.


In a word, my premise is quite simple. How someone choses to operate their vehicle is their business and theirs only. If they ask questions or want an opinion, then that's what they'll get. Whether or not they learn from this and improve their skills is still their business.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and do y'all celebrate anything like Thanksgiving up there?

mishar

OK. Since there is not close ratio there you should do that. Perhaps once every three years.
That would be one simple world. Unfortunately this one is not that simple.
I hate to say, but I don’t agree with this either. That static stress is quite smaller than dynamic stresses that steering is designed to withstand. Don’t mix force you have to use to turn a steering wheel (if no power steering) with forces hitting that mechanism while driving. Forces from left and right wheel mostly annul each other so we don’t feel them, but they are steel there.
On this one I totally agree. So any luck?
Thank you. I wish you the same. Thanksgiving in Canada was October 8.

I hate cars

Glad to see someone else who does not turn the steering wheels without the car moving. I thought I was weird. Just had this discussiong with the GF yesterday. Even if I'm rolling at 1/2mph it's better than the people who crank on the wheel with the car stopped and usually ram it into the steering stops.

switchedON

any nubes lap stroking your tranny like a glass slipper? My double clutch begs for more each day...yours will you to if just let it give back what you have been wanting to give it.

I switched back on and I hope you all have learnd a little somin somin about JAP rules.

TLingham

Related topic. I have an automatic that I can switch to manumatic. I'm in a hilly area and I like using the manumatic to downshift when going downhill. In some cases, I can coast in 3rd or 2nd without using the breaks. Is this bad for the transmission?

phee

iTrader: (5)

i wouldnt think so, your car will do it when you are in automagic mode

TLingham

Brakes that is.