JetJock

Recently I had someone back into my driver side door. It looked like a simple repair. I took the car to the best body shop in the area, and they were originally going to replace the door skin. After pulling the upholstery away from the door, they decided the best fix would be to push out the dent. The manager said replacing the skin would involve cutting and welding, with possible future rust problems. They fixed the dent without any welding. When they went to paint the door, they tried to blend the paint with the rear door, and front fender. Anthracite Metallic must be tough to match because they didn't like the match, so they ended up painting the whole left side of the car, including the strip above the windows, front fender, both doors, and rear quarterpannel.

Now...I've got a car that only has 12,000 miles but is half repainted. Is there any recourse I might have with the other persons insurance company for Diminished Value. The car certainly, in my eyes isn't the same. It's not a perfect car anymore. It was mint before the repair, garaged, never driven in rain, and not a scratch or dent anywhere. I don't love my car anymore...it's a mental thing obviously, but I just don't like the car anymore. Are there any lawyers who can answer my question? Obviously, anyone buying the car would think twice knowing the extent of the repaint. I'd never buy the car myself.
Thanks!

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

If you live in PA, you may not be entitled to DV.

http://info.insure.com/auto/collisio...shedvalue.html

http://www.zalma.com/diminution.htm

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ght=diminished

micwiltay

That's a shame they couldn't match the paint. My dealer recently crashed the front of my Anthracite TL and took it to their preferred body shop. The match in color and metallic specks on the hood is beautiful. My front bumper cover also now matches the rest of the car

JetJock

They matched the paint...but they had to paint half the car to get it the way "I" wanted it to look. Most people would have been happy with just painting the door, but the body shop manager knew I was fussy. I told him I wanted it perfect, cost no object since it wasn't my fault.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

Must be a poor body shop... my boys tl got fender bender they replaced the fender the paint is flawless... but then again its a white tl

JetJock

Not what I wanted to read, but thank you so much for the information.

dwilliams

I am not a lawyer but rather a diminished value expert whose job it is to determine automobile values for lawyers and consumers in auto accident cases. Anytime you are the victim of another's negligence you are entitled to collect the entirety of your losses, even when it includes diminished value. However, the burden of proof is on you. Here are a couple of resources you might find helpful:

Diminished Value Slideshow
Diminished Value: Your Auto Insurance Company's Best Kept Secret
Diminished Value Gets Bum Rap in Media

If you are interested, let me know where you are located and I'll try to suggest an expert in your area.

Best Regards
David Williams

Evader

David, I would love some information on this. I am registered and insured in Virginia. My accident recently happened in New Jersey where a driver was making a left turn and did not yield to me as I had the right of way. Any information you could help me out on this would be great. My car is almost done being repaired and I have asked multiple times about dimenished value and noone seems to have an answer for me. I had moderate front-end damage which is costing close to $7K to be fixed. I filed a claim with my insurance and my insurance is going after the moron who caused the accident.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

David,

Great info- thanks!

dwilliams

Most people think that when they buy full coverage insurance it is to make sure the other guy gets paid when we cause damage to his car. Actually, insurance we buy protects US from OUR losses. So why does the insurance company of the negligent party step between the parties of an accident to work out a settlement? Because they are afraid the guy that caused the damage – their insured - will give away the farm as a result of feeling bad for the damage he caused to your property. That’s the last thing they want to have happen.


While the negligent driver may have good insurance, bad insurance or no insurance, it doesn’t relieve his responsibility to pay you in full for all the damage he caused. You are not bound by exclusions in his contract, nor would he be bound by exclusions in your contract if you caused the damage to his car.


Therefore, if the negligent party’s insurer wants to pay you for all of your losses on its policyholder's behalf, you may take the money and run. If they want to shortchange you by using aftermarket parts or by claiming they don’t owe you for diminished value, the at-fault party will have to cough up the difference.

Here’s another article from a question and answer site I maintain that may clarify what you're owed in a third-party loss:

Auto Insurance Adjuster Lies to Third-Party Claimant

David Williams

dwilliams

In your case, your ability to collect for diminished value will be determined in part by whether or not your insurance policy has a DV exclusion. But even if it does you are not entirely out of luck. The entire premise if insurance is based on indemnification (making one whole). Is it possible that your car could be repaired to a level that equals its condition prior to the loss? I doubt it. Can you take steel, wad it up, stretch it back out, hammer it , grind it, weld on it, paint it, buff it out and make it better than steel that's never been wrinkled? Will electronics on your car fail prematurely from the jar? Yes, your car may look perfect, but is it really?

In my opinion, no car can be repaired in the aftermarket to a level that it held as an undamaged car before the loss.

Your insurance company had the right to total your car, replace your car with another of like kind, or fix the damage to your car. It chose the later because it was the least expensive of the choices. But if your car can't be fixed to equal its condition prior to the loss, then you have net been indemnified.

To collect you'll need to show the disparity between a car like your that's never been hit and your repaired car. You'll need the help of experts in proving this and it could get expensive. Had you not turned this in to your own company you would not be under any limitations to collect and you could have simply demanded the at-fault party pay your losses. By allowing the involvement of your insurer, you hampered your ability to get a fair shake.

It's not that the hurdle can't be overcome. It's just that it will likely cost you more to prove the case than you can recover if you prevail.

Live and learn!

Is There Good Hope for Fair Auto Insurance Settlements?

David Williams

Evader

David,

Thanks for your help! My insurance company (Geico) has just told me that they do not allow for depreciated value. I have contact the at-fault party's insurance and they have also told me that they do not honor this either. Looks like i'm screwed!

jay0k

Is there any diminished value in the first place. It was basically a fender bender. No major repairs had to be done. Trying to make an accident a pay day ultimately raises everyone's rates.

Bearcat94

Evader - look at that article again. What David said was you are NOT subject to the at fault party's exclusions.

IOW - if the law allows you diminished value, you are owed diminished value. Period. Whether you collect from an insurer or from the person directly is, I guess, the question.

dwilliams

Again, while diminished value is tougher to collect in first party cases due to limits and exclusions in the contract YOU purchased, that is not the case in third-party. In first party you are governed by contract law. In third-party you are governed by tort law. Tort law gives you the right to be placed in an equal position as you were in prior to the loss, while contract law - generally speaking - gives you that same right providing no contact exclusion you argeed to trumps it.

Because you elected to have your own insurance pay this claim, you may have limited your ability to go after the tort-feasor directly for diminished value. You'll need an attorney to sort that out for you.

If this were still a third-party claim you could ignore the at-fault driver's insurer and send a letter of demand directly to the negligent party. If he ignored it and you had to go to court to collect, you would likely have to sue him personally because HIS INSURANCE COMPANY OWES YOU NOTHING. In other words, his insurance company didn't cause the damage and they didn't promise you anything in HIS contract. You need to understand that. They don't have a contract with you; Their contact is with the at-fault driver, and it promises to protect HIM from HIS losses. If he never pays you and you never get a judgment against him, then technically he has never suffered a loss for which his insurer needs to spend money.

Your question now is whether you can involve both insurance companies, having part of the claim paid by each. You have really muddied the water and complicated what would have been a simple claim. Subrogation is rarely a good deal beause it will cost most insurance companies more money to go after a few thousand dollars than they can collect. In other words, they won't fight very hard - if at all - to collect money for you.

In all honesty, your effort to collect will be an uphill battle all the way. It doesn't mean you can't collect. But it does mean it will probably cost you more to bring the case than you can collect. You have two insurance companies, both tort and contract claims, two states laws, and only moderate damage. I would suggest you get an attorney to talk to you about this claim and your recovery so you can make an intellegent decision as to whether or not you should pursue dimininshed value. For some, it is not worth the expense and the fight.


David Williams
Automotive tools and tips

dwilliams

Can you name anything that can be damaged and repaired to a level that equals or exceeds it preloss condition? I'm guessing no. If for no other reason there is the possibility of failure of the repaired area that didn't previously exist befor the loss.

Let's look at some losses even if the car appears to be perfectly repaired:

Loss of manufacturer's transferrable warranty on parts that were altered by the crash. This in itself can be thousands of dollars. You paid for this coverage as a part of the sticker price. You will never have the benefit of this part of the purchase on areas of the car that have been reworked.

Loss of eligibility for inclusion in manufacturer's preowned certification programs. Usually, any structural damage keeps you out.

A history that will forever follow the car through companies like Carfax and others making your car more difficult to trade or sell.

Possible failure of the repaired area at some point in the future.

Aftermarket Paint that may age differently than factory applied paint

VIN numbers missing on replaced parts that can't be purchased, else every thief would buy them.

Federally mandated R-DOT decals on replacement parts

No crash testing of the repaired car to know that it will perform predictably and as the manufacturer designed it to perform in a crash.

Fatigued metal that will bend easier in a subsequent crash

and a bunch of other stuff.

JetJock

Dave...thanks for your reply. I never expected to get the amount of information you provided. I was really pissed before I got my car back from the body shop, but thankfully the car looks perfect. I told the shop I was fussy....my car has never been driven in the rain...and it had less than 12,000 miles at the time of the incident...and still smelled new inside. Even the body shop manager noticed the conditiion of the car...and the smell inside..and complimented me on the cars condition. He said they would do everything to make it right.
Well....they did.....they ended up painting the whole left side of the car...to get the paint right. This was for a door dent...not anything structural. They tried to blend the paint..but that didn't meet my demands. They ended up removing the headlamps, side markers, lowering the bumpers and rocker panel. The results are amazing. I can't see any difference even in the "texture" of the paint. (orange peel). I plan to keep this car for 10 years....so I'm not worried about selling it anytime soon. In 10 years...the car won't be worth anything anyway...and it's condition will speak for itself. It's garaged, never driven in rain or snow....basically a "fun" second car. I'll probably get another car...but I'll keep this one until it melts...LOL!

MR1

Glad it worked out and you got your mind right JJ. The subject of DV still has many intersting aspects for the consideration of others with slightly different circumstances though.

Thanks dwilliams for joining in and welcome. Do you by chance have a TL?

dwilliams

Glad I could help! While I love the TL and think it is an awesome car, I don't own one. I drive a Dodge pickup.

jay0k

The warranty is still applicable and any decent body shop repairs their repairs with a lifetime warranty.

No structural damage.

Most likely won't even show up in CarFax and even if it does it would be noted as minor repair.

Is a crash test affected by a new paint job? I don't think so.

Still not buying it. The car didn't lose value. If every minor fender bender required diminished value payout our rates would probably double.

Glad everything worked out JetJock!

dwilliams

I guess you would like to convince us that you would pay as much for a damaged and repaired car as one never having suffered a crash?

Your logic is flawed; let's start with the warranty.

The warranty was purchased with the car as a part of the sticker price and allowed for repairs at any Acura dealer coast to coast. Further, it was transferrable to subsequent buyers within time and mileage limits making the car more desireable to used car shoppers than it would be sans the warranty.

Now that this car has been repaired, the paint is no longer warranted on repaired panels except that it may carry a warranty at the facility that repaired it. Warranty coverage on the door is gone, too, except for the limited coverage that may exist through the repair facility. Will the repairer tow the car off a freeway in California if the car owner experiences a problem with the workmanship? Acura would have. Yes, so what that repairing shop may have given a warranty. What's it really worth? What if the car owner moves? At its best it is in no way comparable to a nationwide factory honored warranty that's transferrable to subsequent buyers allowing repairs at any Acura dealer across the nation.

This vehicle owner was entitled to have repairs performed to preloss condition. Did he have a car with filler in the door before the loss? Did he have a car with half factory paint and half aftermarket paint? Will the two paints fade equally as they age? Will his door cave in more quickly in a subsequent crash now that the metal has been stretched and elasticized? Will the side airbag and head airbag work when needed or did the jar compromise them?

By the way, doors have an intrusion beam and are thus considered structural panels. And, accidents written up by law enforcement and /or paid by insurance are among the most frequent reports provided to Carfax and other VIN history retailers. Nothing you can do to keep them from the files.

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, diminished value exists because cars cannot be repaired to their preloss conditions, and they carry damage histories that can never be erased.

So...please tell us which insurance company you work for. Insurers seem to be the only people that don't get it.

David Williams
Safe Collision Repairs

JetJock

[QUOTE=dwilliams]I guess you would like to convince us that you would pay as much for a damaged and repaired car as one never having suffered a crash?

Your logic is flawed; let's start with the warranty.

The warranty was purchased with the car as a part of the sticker price and allowed for repairs at any Acura dealer coast to coast. Further, it was transferrable to subsequent buyers within time and mileage limits making the car more desireable to used car shoppers than it would be sans the warranty.

Now that this car has been repaired, the paint is no longer warranted on repaired panels except that it may carry a warranty at the facility that repaired it. Warranty coverage on the door is gone, too, except for the limited coverage that may exist through the repair facility. Will the repairer tow the car off a freeway in California if the car owner experiences a problem with the workmanship? Acura would have. Yes, so what that repairing shop may have given a warranty. What's it really worth? What if the car owner moves? At its best it is in no way comparable to a nationwide factory honored warranty that's transferrable to subsequent buyers allowing repairs at any Acura dealer across the nation.

Now you have me feeling rotten again.....just as I was starting to forget about the damage. I think I need a drink!!

MR1

[QUOTE=JetJock] It's Friday night...have a drink but don't drive.

Remember that you are keeping your car for 10 years and it will have minimal value anyway. Rule #1 Don't sweat the small stuff. Rule #2 It's all small stuff.
For you, car is fixed, looks good, runs good, you love it so forget about it. Diminished Value applys more to people that are trading within a short period. The longer you keep it, the less important it is. The repairs are also guaranteed for as long as you own the car. Now have one for me.

dwilliams

[QUOTE=JetJock]Didn't mean to bring you down. After all, it is YOUR money you are leaving on the table, and if you are OK with that, who am I to question your decision. For your own peace of mind, ask a dealer what they will give you for your repaired car with full disclosure of the damage and you'll know if the diminished value is an amount worth fussing over. I'm guessing it will be in the thousands, not hundreds, that you'll lose, even with beautiful repairs.

jay0k

Apparently you're in the industry of making money off these sort of things.

Most people including myself wouldn't have a problem with a car that has been professionally repaired in a minor way such as a dent or new paint.

The Acura warranty is not voided in any way because of this.

Diminished value usually applies in major accidents where there is an actual loss of value to the ACV of the car. It seems everyone these days tries to get something for nothing.

dwilliams

I'm making nothing from this. Just trying to correct a lot of misinformation about diminished value. As for the warranty, check your owners manual, particularly the warranty booklet. Under the exclusions to warranty coverage you will see that accident damage is clearly spelled out as voiding warranty on the parts of the car that have been altered from their original design. Think about it. Why would Acura want to honor the warranty on workmanship it had nothing to do with? It didn't leave the door with plastic filler in in it.

How about you or someone with a TL posting that exclusion when you find it so we can all read exactly what it says? I've never seen a manual where the accident damage exclusion wasn't included. But I'll keep an open mind and give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.

David Williams

JetJock

Is there any way to find out online what the dimished value might be? I'm reluctant to tell the dealer about the damage since they know my car, it's history, my history, and always give me top dollar on a trade. The way the car looks, I doubt if they'll know about the damage if I decide to trade someday. 10 years is a long time...and I hear a TL-S calling me.

MR1

I have no dog in this fight.

I can tell everyone that I have personal experience post accident. Our MDX received a $10,000 blow a few years back. Excellent repair all factory parts etc. A few months later I took it to the dealer for what I assumed would be a warranty front end adjustment. Less than five minutes after being on the rack, the technician came to talk. This car has been in an accident and no work will be covered. I was disappointed to say the least. Happy ending, my insurance guarantees all repairs for life of my ownership so paid to fix it @ frame shop.

Dealer could tell so fast because all parts replaced must be marked. When I sell or trade anybody that checks will know = diminished value. This made me know that I should have negotiated a little more when we got hit. Accident was not our fault and I don't feel whole. The car and deal with insurance company are satisfactory but when I sell, I'll lose. We are keeping the MDX because it's a good car and received a good repair job, but also because we are partially screwed.

dwilliams

There are Internet sources, though I wouldn't put much stock in their opinion. It is simply impossible to determine the extent of diminished value without examining the car in its repaired condition. Any figure you get will be conservative at best. You'll only be cheating yourself. I can tell you when I last did a crunch of the numbers in my own files - about a year ago - Inherent DV amounted to almost $4,900 of the average DV appraisal. Inherent diminished value does not factor in workmanship or flaws. The cars in these files had suffered about $10k in loss and had an average value of about $22,000. The diminished value was about 33% of the actual cash value of the car. Here's an article I did two years ago when I first started tracking my numbers. While the newest numbers are a bit different, there isn't much change. This will give you an idea of the amount of money that's on the line.

Safe Collision Repair Statistics Show Average Diminished Value is $6,486.54

JetJock

Dave, thanks for always replying...I appreciate the time you take to answer questions. Since my damage was only a door dent from parking lot rash. Certainly more than a ding, but there was no structural damage. The total repairs came to a little over 1K because they had to repaint more of the car than originally estimated to match the color and texture of the paint. It's impossible to see the difference. With this in mind, would the DV be worth persuing? Thanks
Steve

jay0k

A reputable shop won't use plastic filler on any modern cars.

If for every old lady that bumped a car with a shopping cart we expected a payout of $6,000 for a $1,200 repair insurance would quick become un-affordable for most.

I don't agree. Driving a car has some risk and crap happens. One should be made whole but shouldn't expect to get rich.

I will add to this if you are in a major accidents. For example front end damage, air bags deployed, structural damage, body damage, mechanical damage, etc. Your car has decreased in value now even after repairs. You should be compensated for that. But for a fender bender, give me a break.

dwilliams

Nearly all shops claim they use little to no filler. But when I get out the electronic mil gauge, often I find the coatings are too thick to get a reading. Sadly, that is the rule, not the exception. All shops use plastic filler. If you believe otherwise you are sorely out of touch with reality. There is no way around it. Metal is too thin to be stretched, shrunk, worked and filed as it was in the old days.

Driving a car does have risks. But when one buys an insurance policy they make a conscious decision as to how much risk they themselves are willing to bear. After they pay their deductible following an accident, the burden of the loss - however great it may be - is not their problem, even if the accident was the result of their carelessness.

When the damage is caused by negligent acts of another, a person should not lose a single penny. And, I would even argue that insurers should be paying the bill for the inspection to make certain they have fulfilled their obligation.

I rarely see people trying to get more than they deserve after having an accident. Yet, I see insurers taking more than they are entitled in nearly every claim. For example, when the car is in its damaged state and worth less money, how do insurers justify keeping the insurance premium the same despite the fact that their exposure has decreased?

I'm glad we agree that "one should be made whole" after an accident. Since work can't be performed well enough in the aftermarket to restore a car to its preloss condition, it leaves no choice except paying diminished value. Courts in 1840 understood it, as did many courts prior to that date. In fact, some of the first cases of diminished value were filed as horses shared the streets with the newly manufactured automobile. If a car struck a horse and caused it to be lame, the horse could be replaced with one that was younger, stronger and faster. Problem was, it didn't know the milkman or mailman's route like the old horse did, and had to be tied and untied at every stop. Courts recognized the need for additional compensation to make up for the loss.

Check out this article about a boat claim that happened in 1837:
Is there Good Hope for Fair Auto Insurance Settlements?

So, when are you going to tell me which insurance company you work for? Come on...out with it! I'm beginning to think you are ashamed of them!

Article: Get Your Head Out of the Sand

David Williams
Safe Collision Repairs

dwilliams

You're welcome. I sent you a private message with the name of an appraiser in your state. It won't hurt to contact him to get his thoughts. If it were $10 laying on the ground, I'd pick it up. But that's me. As I said before, your loss will be in thousands, not hundreds. Unfortunately, the hoops you are made to jump through may make it unattractive for you to pursue. Each state is different. Good luck and let me know if you need anything.

David Williams

JetJock

Dave, thanks to you, I decided to file a claim for diminished value. I didn't hire a lawyer, nor pay for any "expert advice". I just filled out the paperwork and hoped for the best.

Today, I got a call from the Insurance Company responsible. They offered me $250.00 to just go away. My other choices were hire a lawyer, or get proof of damages. I took the $250. I'm sure there might have been more money available, but I just wanted this nightmare to end. Like you told me before....."I wouldn't leave $10 on the floor". Well.....I got a fast $250....which will pay for a good night out on the town.....a good bottle of wine...end of story. THANKS!!!!!
I wouldn't have done anything without your advice....THANK YOU!!!

Steve

husker1

Wow, very enlightening read. Thanks for the info and glad that it is working out.

darth62

Jetjock - I don't know if this will help. However, my TSX arrived with some problems with the paint. Its a Meteor Silver - which is a silver light blue. There were a few dark spots on the hood and on the side fender. It looked like either paint overspray, or some kind of chemical damage that occured in transit. After a lot of complaining, Acura had a factor rep check the car out at the dealer. They decided to repaint the front hood entirely. The rep warned me at the time that it might not match the rest of the car.

End result? I can't even tell that there was a problem - and I'm an obsessive detailer. I wax the car once every two weeks and go over every panel carefully. The paint match is nearly perfect.

The moral of the story is that a good body/paint shoptought to be able to restore the car to the shape it was in before. You should have an issue with diminished value, because the car should look like it did before.

Bob_F

This is a very interesting thread!

I want to thank JetJock for mentioning this topic in the 2nd Gen TL forum.

David Williams may have mentioned this already, but another thing to consider is diminished Kelly Blue Book price estimates. Once your car has any body work it's dropped out of the "Excellent" category for "Vehicle Condition". A car in the next highest category, "Good", can have a substantially reduced KBB valuation.

And from a psychological standpoint, some buyers simply won't consider a car that's had any bodywork, regardless of the price. That can make selling the car more of a hassle.

Bob

JetJock

darth62...I'm exactly like you in the way I cared for my car. I never drove it in the rain....fortunately I have a daily driver for work. I probably had 15 coats of Zaino on the paint, and it was always covered in the garage when I wasn't driving the car. I treated it like a Ferrari because I simply loved the car looking and smelling new.

The repair really does look good...I was fussy and the body shop knew that, otherwise they would have just painted the door and sent me packing. The only one who can tell the car has been repaired is ME! I'm not sure if anyone will ever know....since it was parking lot rash...I'm not sure if it will even show on Carfax. Certainly, any private buyer would never know. If they asked about damage...I'd tell them it had a parking lot dent repaired, but no accident damage. I got screwed.....everyone does with repairs. I just wonder why you didn't refuse your new car. I'd never accept a new car with a repainted hood.

darth62

I didn't refuse it because I didn't catch the problem. I had already taken delivery, and did not notice the problem until a month or two later. By then, I already had quite a few miles on it.

JCharged

iTrader: (5)

Sorry to high-jack

but

Um...Dave williams could check out this thread?

https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/mercedes-e-class-amg-news-%2A%2Ae63-previewed-top-gear-page-2-%2A%2A-165694/

Is it worth it for me to pursue DV on my car?

Also I would like the contact of my appraiser in my area (20166).

Thanks in advance.