93SHOcar

The A1 service came due at 5,700 miles so I decided to give the Acura dealership's service department a try. I wanted to use my own oil and filter and the service writer said no problem. An appointmet was made and the dealer got my TL in to the shop as soon as I arrived.

According to the owner's manual, the TL requires 4.5 qts with an oil and filter change. So, I provided them with 4 qts of my own oil and stated that I would take care of topping it off.

When they finished with the TL and I was checking out, the service writer stated that the technician said that the TL really takes just over 5 qts. This meant my TL was down over 1 qt on the dipstick and I should add an additional qt as soon as possible. They also indicated that on the receipt. If I had had an extra qt with me, I would have added it on the spot but I didn't so I proceeded to go the 7 miles back home. At home, I let the TL sit for 10 minutes in my level garage. Then, I checked the dipstick and discovered that instead of reading below the 1 qt low line, in fact it was down less than 1/3 qt. So, I did not add any oil at all.

Questions:
1. How much oil have others actually been adding with an oil and filter change?
2. If had proceeded with adding the 5th qt and essentially overfilled my TL by at least 2/3 qt, how much actual damage would have been done?
3. How big of a issue should I make with the dealership on the fact that they apparently don't know the true capacities of the vehicles they service?

Thanks for all inputs and recommendations!

Saintor

Why are you bothering with providing them your own oil? Sounds very zealous to me. They are the specialists (you are not). Let them do their job.

dcarlinf1

Bxscig

There is nothing wrong with providing your own oil. Its not like they want to give you the best stuff anyway.

93SHOcar

I am using Mobil 1 0W-20. Their shop fill in bulk was Quaker State and while they had Mobil 1 available it was almost $6/qt. That's why I brought my own and the dealership certainly did not have any objection.

Aegir

I added 4.5 quarts. Not sure if an extra .5 quarts (5 total) would raise the level enough to cause a churning issue, but probably not. It would just be a waste. I haven't had to add oil between changes. I'll save the 1/2 quart for the next change.

Saintor

Synthetic oil is a pure waste of money unless living in a Nordic climate. Engines on regular oil routinely gets 250 000+ miles. You really need more than that?

Oswald Vater

Haven't changed the oil on my 04 yet but my 00 was the same engine. I always changed it myself and always used 4.5 quarts. Never had a problem and it always read full. Stick to the manual.

copter

Who is this guy??????

Syn oil is a pure waste :sqntfawk:

dcarlinf1

Someone that doesn't know what they are talking about, obviously.

Scott GN231

Mind supplying a source for this?

deandorsey

what? HAHAHAHAHAA

Aspector Gadget

Saintor= OWNED


I use Mobil 1 and supply my own oil for the same reason listed above. Price of oil at the dealer is a rip.


For the original question. The mechanic may have spilled some oil and required more to replace it, but of course they would not admit that.

Is the 4.5 qts the capacity with or without the oil filter? The filter generally adds capacity.

Ron A

ROAD RAGE WHERE ARE YOU WHEN WE NEED YOU?

Please reply in 10,000 words or less

Saintor

Don't you realize that for some, the use of synthetic oil is like a religion? A believe or die thing. To the point it is ridiculous. Don't you have anything else really important to care about?

Well I worked in hydraulic systems for 6 years as an engineer. I know very well different types of oil and filtration devices on the market, thank you.

For your sake, it has never been proved that the use of synthetic oil makes an engine last any longer. And before you'll experiment any oil break down due to temperature, you can bet your ass that something else will have failed before in the aluminium engine.

PoochaKannInc

I just laughed out loud at work. Thanks RonA for making me look like I'm schizophrenic, laughing to myself in my cubicle....

William_B

I used synthetics in my old cars becuase I was not religious about oil changes. I would go as soon as it was convenient after I passed the 12K mark. Fewer oil changes was always a plus for me.

I'll use the Honda standard now since synthetic will not buy me anything with the oil life indicator in the TL.

Road Rage

Several issues at play here:

1) I doubt 5.0 qts will cause an overfill. Most cars can be "overfilled", because the mfr's allow for it, as some nimrod will always overfill by a quart. Plus, mfrs often under-rate the capacity of the oil sump, so they can reduce the TCO $'s. On the S2000 Forum, some guys went on and on for pages about the little "X's" on the dipstick, and whether 1 x over would cause engine failure, whether to read the front X or the other side X, and so on - it was nuts!

All quality oils have silicone in them, to reduce foaming (like DiGel for your tummy). One can easily check for an overfill by running the car up to redline (under load - don't do that when at idle in neutral!!!!), then shutting down, and immediately checking the dipstick - you should not see foam, or even lots of bubbles. If you do, you ARE overfilled, and should slightly loosen the plug or pump it out through the dipstick.

2) Regarding synthetic oil being a rip. There is partial truth in this, but like anything, one liners are usually only half truths. Beware the one-liner bearing a grudge.

I have posted before that 20 years ago, synoils were unquestionably the way to go for high performance cars and high perf owners. Today, modern oil refining (hydro-cracking and hydroisomerization) has resulted in Group III oils, which are partially saturated, and near synthetic performance (synoils are fully saturated, being mono-molecular). But GIII's are not as goofd at low temps, as they still have wax crystals, and as they heat cycle, they start to "un-refine" - the heat acts liek the heat of refining, only in reverse. And the importance of the add pack cannot be ignored, either. Most minoils from the best companies (Chevron(Havoline), Motocraft (Conoco)) use similar anti-wear (AW) and anti-friction (AF) compounds.

Point is, the gap has closed -minoils are an order of magnitude better, and synoils have not become 10x better than they were.

But, generally, a quality synoil will outperform a mineral oil in:
1) detergency
2) lowering friction
3) cooling the bottom 2/3 of the engine
4) lower volatility (meaning less thickening and less boil-off requiring makeup
5) Service life
6) Generates less self-induced crud since it is not refined, it is created, molecule by molecule. Soemtimes it comes from petroleum, or natural gases, or from the synthesis of acids and alcohols, such as from corn (esters)
7) Reduced wear at frequency extremes
8) Higher flash point (see #4)
9) etc. etc.

It certainly is true that today's best minoils, used within their service limits, are all the lubrication most people need.

It is certainly true that quality synblends like Motocraft 5w20 can offer performance at or beytter than some other full synoils. It is a question of good lube engineering.

It is certainly true that a synblend like LE 8130 can arguably be the best oil on the planet, as it uses the best qualities of both mid-continent paraffins (GII), and GIV PAO's. Its add pack allows extende drains, and paraffins seem to work better with thr add pack than some straight synoils. I will post a link to something you all should read, to see in one post where all of what I have said can be verified by standard ASTM tests.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195574 all my S2KI oil posts

http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=169852 min/syn comparo

Saintor

Et voilà.

Road Rage

Well, I know you seem to like snap answers, but quoting out of context here is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? There have been wear studies using standard ASTM tests that clearly indicate that some synoils (and synblends) can signficantly reduce wear. Whether it will extend engine life is based on how long you own your car, and how you drive it. Personally, I would not go 8k on Honda's oil (Bobil Drive Clean). See the comparo for details.

Your original post said it was a rip unless you lived in the Nordic. Well, that is again, at best a half-truth, because the other half is hot climates. There, the ability to lubricate at high temps (an advantage of synoils, esp esters) and not burn off can be a signficant performance advantage. Plus, all racing teams use synoils, and often not the ones emblazoned on their cars and race suits.

I do not mind your quoting one line to support your position, as much of what I posted does support your overall contention, just not the flippant one liner. The choice of engine oil is imprtant, and people should make an informed choice. Between the 2 of us, much info to that end has been shared. It's all good, bro.

Saintor

Wait... wasn't there any string attached? I don't see how your sentence could anyway be changed by any context.

Fact is that oil industry has never been able to prove any longer durability of engines with synth oil. It was all their interest to try and try... Again, it is a believe it or die thing. Pure waste of money.

Personally, I have seen cars with once a year dino-oil change to last 17 and 19 years with original powertrain. One was crashed and the other resold.

I think that this synth oil phenomena comes under the chapter of "people who are scared to be scared".

Road Rage

Well, Saintor, you seem to know what you know. But what are racers afraid of, I wonder? They are looking for any edge - what "religion" - are they too ignorant of the facts? And did you read the ASTM test results I posted?

Mobil and others have submitted papers showing wear reduction in controlled tests to the SAE, and those go through peer review - I guess the test procedures where they show virtually no wear after 300k miles, or reduced wear scars for the same loads, have no real-world applicability? And the engineers that per-reviewed them lack analytical faculties to "see-through" the hype.
Again, you and I agree on much, but I think you see things as black and white, but in this context, grey is real, and for many owners, grey works. Anecdotes about cars lasting 20 years are fine, but science deals with N. I know a guy who claims he never changed the oil in his car, and it lasted for 200k miles. Does that prove synoils are not necessary? Or that not changing the oil is worthwhile? Does it prove anything at all? Not to me.

Let's leave it at that, and let those who have followed this thread infer what they will, and make their own decisions based on whatever they will - but most of the engineers I know who have expensive sedans, let alone sports cars, and certainly all that race, use synoils in the engine, tranny, and diff. I use them in my S2000 except the diff, where i found LE-607 to have the highest load carrying capacity of any diff oil I have ever tested. It was relatively unknown in the passenger car world, and now it seems to be the diff oil of choice for many (point is, I am not a blind zealot - I am a scientist who uses the discipline of science to make informed choices).
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=185775

Here are some posts on the best oils I have ever used:
Delvac1 and LE 8130
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=188605
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=187689

And here is another interesting one - for years, people asked if the Mobil1 in race cars was the same as we can buy - some said yes, others of us said, Are you kidding?
Mobil1 started selling its race oil, which is high in esters:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=187689

The M1 Racing has huge amounts of anti-wear compounds, and a lot of calcium, which is a detergent, pH buffer, and helps with wera reduction to boot.

The 12.5 TBN is one of the highest in the business.

Saintor

Come on. Do you have any idea how many oil additives claim the same result? Yet it does not prove anything about longer engine life.

NYC taxis do 300000 miles routinely on the same powertrain on dino oil. Same goes for the 1 080 000 miles Accord 1994. Asking for more is overkill for 99% of the people.

I disagree about the gray zone. A determination has to be made if there are obvious benefits of using synth oil (not in racing, neither in polar temperatures), enough to recommend it.

None so far.

Aegir

I use synthetic and love it.

caball88

i use synthetic and i don't think it's a waste of money.

TLover

I've used Redline engine/tranny oil (RR, I noticed that the min-syn oil comparo didn't include Redline; any reason why?) in all my cars. I don't use it because I want the car to last 800,000 miles instead of 400,000. I've seen tests that show reduced friction with Redline, thereby, theoretically, freeing up some power. Now I know it isn't a lot, but hey, every little bit counts, eh?

Casper42

Road Rage: I see above you say you wouldnt run 8K on Honda's stock oil, but I thought I also remember reading somewhere in here that you shouldnt switch to Syn for the first couple hundred/thousand miles as it helps to properly break in the engine.

If both facts are true, what would you reccomend for a MinOil to use in place of the honda stuff? Or would you just stick it out until the first oil change at a few thousand miles and then switch to Syn?

EDIT: Re-Reading my own post and suddenly feel stupid. 8K = miles or RPM?

RTDyer

I prefer grapeseed oil - low in cholesterol and very 'Mediterranean'. Anyone use palm oil or K-Y brand warming lubricant? It is VERY personal.

lindros2

I would argue that Syn Oil *IS* a waste after spending $807 on a head gasket job for my Audi before I sold it (I used Mobil 1 for all but 3000 of the 81,000 miles). Who honestly pushes a car far enough (or lets a car sit long enough) to justify $5-6/quart ?

Dino juice is fine for me.

Road Rage

I answered that: change at 1K miles, and add a bottle of Valvoline Maxlife Engine Protector (MLEP). MLEP has all the goodies in Honda's break-in oil, so you can have your cake and eat it too. I went with a typical minoil, Castrol GTX. Motorcraft's typical minoil is made from much better GIII stocks, but one does not want super-slippery oil during bedding in of the engine. I would wait until about 5k to switch over to synoils, so you could just wait until then with no hram - I like to change the OE oil early because there can be sand left over from the castings, silicone from the sealants, and other debris I would prefer not to have swishing around in an expensive engine. With MLEP and Castrol GTX, it works just fine (I did this on the S2000). I posted the VOA of the Accord V6 factoiry fill if you eant to look at it, compare it to the MaxLife, and see that my recommendatioin is sound. Just enter into your service log the following: nothing.

RE: Red Line. I do not know why they were not in the test - probably because they are relatively small player compared to the others. I have used Red Line in various applications for many years, but I think several others have caught up or surpassed them, and those are in my recommendations. Esters are fine, but base stocks are only part of the making of a great oil - add packs make or break it. On BITOG, there have been some posts on Hondas showing elevated copper in the used oil with Red Line- some say it is because the RL leeches wear metals out with its high detergency, others say it is something to be concerned over, since other synoils do not seem to do it. Esters can cause hydrolysis, and whenb watre gets in with the oil, bad things happen - so do a routine UOA now and then to check for coolant leakage. Esters also have to use some PAO to offset each other;s tendency to swell/shrink seals. Thrust bearing and crank brearings use copper in the Hondas I recall, so this mystery is quite important. I do not plan to do the guinea pig.

But RL is a fine company, and I like their MTL and MT-90 in my S2000's tranny - I have not liked their ATF's though, and they do not make one for the TL - Amsoil does.

The one real benefit of esters is that their intrinsic magnetic polarity charge makes them stick to metal - gravity never pulls all the oil off the cam lobes, the highest stress opints durintg start-up. So if you run your cars rarely, that may be a real plus.

It allk comes down to choices, and for mem based on many hours of thought and countless analyses and measurements, that I am going with LE 8130. I have asked LE to consider making a 5w20 synblend, and they are considering it. That would make the warranty fraidy-cats happy.

Road Rage

You have posted that several times - what does the failure of a head gasket have to do with the price of cheese? I mean, what does it have to do with synoil? If youa re suggesting that M1 caused your head gasket failure, I would love to know why.

Dr.Murdock

Why not?

Joe5.0

RR why the knock on 0w-20 Mobil Drive Clean? I've always used Mobil oils and never had a problem.

OuTLAw4422

Usually a head gasket failing results from overheating, not from the use of a type of oil. Your cooling system probably had something to do with your head gasket failure.

Road Rage

Why not the Earth is flat? Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

Why not? Becasue it makes no sense.

Road Rage

I do not recall knocking Drive Clean - but I have found no reference to a 0w20 Drive Clean - do you measn Mobil1 0w20 perhaps.

Too thin at high temps, and it will tend to become thinner over time.

Agent47

"Synthetic Oil" is a sham from a marketing stand point, not necessarily from its effective use.

What do you suppose they make "synthetic" oil from??? The same crude oil all lubricants are made from. The expense is from the extra refining and detergents.

Laugh if you want, but I Z-Max my cars. I put it in my Celica the day I bought it and the oil was the same carmel brown coming out as it was put in 6000 miles earlier. So I stuck with that until my car was killed by an SUV last April. Same story everytime. The lube tech onced asked me if I was changing it more frequently, cause it was never dirty.

So on July 3rd, with only 2 miles on the odometer, I Z-Maxed my TL before it rolled off the dealer's lot.

ranberndt

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.htm


Wake Up!.......your not in Kansas anymore.

ndabunka

Of course, your WRONG on this one but we will let it go as this isn't a forum on why synthetic is better than dino oil.

ndabunka

Just synthetic oil isn't used in your line of work does NOT mean that it does not have advantages. It has been PROVEN to provide better suspension of contaniments than dino oil. This helps reduce wear at startup (and all other times as well). The synthetic stuff does NOT break down at higher temps like the dino oil has been proven too. that's enough of a hi-jack for now...