superballs

i have a bit of a moral issue here. about a year ago i went vegetarian and am very happy with my choice. 4 months ago i went vegan(no milk, eggs, butter or any other animal by-product at all). now im ready to buy a 35K dollar car, and any 35K dollar car is gonna come with leather. is there any car maker(acura, bmw, lexus, etc) that will swap out the real leather seats for man-made leather, or vinyl. i went vegan for a few reasons, mainly for health(heart attacks and cancer are the 2 leading killers in america and animal ingredients increase odds of both) and also because i dont want to contribute to the death and torture of animals. obvioulsy getting leather seats, wont kill me, but it is one more cow that will be skined, probably alive. what should i do?

shotcaller88

Tare off that "cow skin" and get those seats reupholstered
I can understand you not wanting to sit your ass down on "cow skin", but in reality if they swap the seats out...i doubt they will go back to the factory to be used for a new TL. In other words, no cow saved. I would say you'll be looking at near a grand to get them reupholstered.
...just my

ZQQM

Buy some sheepskin seat covers....

Seriously, most german cars can still be special order with cloth, if they don't come standard. I test drove and 04' Audi A4 with a nice racy cloth, black on black. Sometimes when you get a cloth package, certain options aren't always available, since the cloth is considered very base. The A4 I drove was a fwd, 1.8t with cloth.

6mtV6

The BMW 3 series comes with leatherette (vinyl) standard. I think.

Repecat

Some owners of Saabs have, in ordering their cars, specified that cloth seats be substituted for the standard leather ones for reasons such as yours or wishing for more "grippy" seats for spirited driving. It was a factory order. I understand that cloth seats on new cars are not uncommon in Europe. Some dealers may be reluctant to process such requests since, if anything goes wrong with the transaction, cloth seats in a luxury car may be difficult to sell. Good luck!

drewJ32A2

SBTL

I love animals........................................... ..............they’re delicious!

PoochaKannInc

Agreed. Also I believe the Lexus IS300 can be gotten with suede/Alacantara type seating. I don't think any manufacturer will reupholster your leather seats, maybe just look at cars that do not have them standard (BMW is a major one).

I do agree with shotcaller88 though, that if you get a TL and get it reupholstered, they are not going to use that anyway, so it is still a waste of a cow.

Good luck

Ken1997TL

While I could bring up the numerous proteins you miss out from not eating animals (sorry but we are omnivorous) I wont do that.

Cloth seats are not a problem, especially if you live somewhere hot. Dealerships and upholstery shops will do it for 1000 or so.

DWP

It might be easier to swap out the leather on the seats than people are assuming. I'm researching the TL and I've been trying to find out if the TL seats are all leather, or just the perforated seating surfaces between the bolsters. The Acura web site is unclear on the point. I've posted the question in two recent threads about seat "leather" problems but the question seems to be a thread-killer - no responses. Cars at the TL's price point don't usually have all-leather seats.

If most of the seat is a synthetic material, not leather, then replacing the leather center portion of the seat back and bottom with the same synthetic material should not be too difficult or expensive.

I'm a vegetarian but not a vegan. My rationalization for driving a car with leather seats (and for wearing leather shoes and belts) is that the cow was killed to feed the carnivores, and not for its leather.

EluSiOn

try to search for butt print

svtmike

How can you buy any car? They burn dinosaur by-products.

Mike

Anthracite_Man

Unless you can convince the rest of the world to stop eating beef, I wouldn't worry about sitting on the biproduct.

Hybrid

Would you rather see the skin be thrown away, and not made into leather, after others eat the beef?

I've always thought that leather in a car isn't a good choice. Every manufacturer is using it these days because the public equates it with luxury. But it just doesn't last that well in a car. Cloth or even a good grade of vinyl are superior, in my opinion.

Anthracite_Man

I would normally agree that leather = luxury, but my sister with 2 kids swears by it because it's extremely easy to keep clean and wipe up spills from. I don't like the fact that cloth seats need to be thoroughly cleaned or else they STINK after a while. On the other hand, leather tends to stick to you in warm weather. I have purchased lambs wool seat covers that actually keep you cool in the summer and warm in the winter. They last forever and can be washed whenever you want too.

Vanwall

BMW 3 series 330i w/performance package or 3 series w/o leather or premium package.

cM3go

only the center insers and side bolsters on rear leather i believe, you could easily get them reupholstered

jdone

The new Volvo S40 and V50 come with a new synthetic called T-tec which, IMHO, looks better than the leather in my Acura.

svtmike

If you're really a Vegan, and really believe in the moral principles, then I think you have to completely forego the TL and any other luxury car that offers standard leather. Buying it and then throwing the leather away isn't saving any of those animals whatsoever.

Mike

Aegir

Thank you for presenting your dilemma. I found it intriguing.

You can have the skins from the cow that I am going to eat tonight. They are reserved for you. If you don't use them they will go to waste, and that would be a shame.

EnJ

Sorry to do it but this post is screaming for this article.

http://www.randomperspective.com/page.asp?1news/2/062

superballs

well thanks for most of the advice. except for the two idiots who dont think about anything but what tastes good in there mouths. a lot of people think that vegetarians miss out on vitamins and proteins by not eating meat, but if they did any research on the subject theyed learn that its harder to make a protein lacking diet, than it is to get the protein you need, and by far. also, I feel fine and take daily vitamins everyday to make up for ANY small amount of vitamins I might miss (I took the same vitamins when I ate meat) but im sure to some people taking a pill everyday is harder than getting a heart attack once.
The thing I dont understand, is why would Volvo make a man-made leather which probably looks better, is easier to clean, lasts longer, and nothing dies for it, and other idiots still wanna kill things,....
aegir, the day you go out and kill a cow, skin it, and eat the meat, i will personally come out and pick up the skins. to be honest, i already decided against reupholstering the car, because i agree that it wouldnt save an animal, but i WILL go test drive that Volvo now that i know they are a car company with compassion. anyway, thanks for the help, anyone that thinks this is a silly thread should pick up a book or check out peta.com or at least try to learn something instead of just living the routine thats been handed down to you.

Dr.Murdock

Sorry to say, but your beliefs are flawed. Why are you so ahamed of what we are? We have to eat, its part of nature. In essence, we ourselves are animals. Why do you see that eating an animal is torture? Well i got news for you, plants are living things as well. So can you not justify by killing plants torture as well? Best thnig you can do is starve youself to death. get it through your head, eating is part of nature. You don't see animals not eating other animals becuase they feel bad for them. Its just a part of nature, eating and death is a natrual thing. On the other hand, cumpulsive eating and wasting food is different. Buying 30 punds of meat and eating 1 pound is somethnig to be ashamed of, that is unnatural, it is gluttony. But the act of eating meat itself is not. Using the skin of animals that we eat to make products is fine, because it puts more use out of the animal which is used for food. But simply killing animals for their skin, throwing away their meat, thats a different story. My great grandparents ate meat their entire life, bearly ate any vegetables at all. Where i comne from, meat is eaten o na daily basis. They both lived to old age, my grandmother died at the age of 89, while my grandfather died at 101. The extreme of any side is unhealthy, you have to have a balanced diet. Eating only vege/meat is bad for you. An extreme is never healthy.

Sorry for this off-topic post, i just felt like typing.

-BTW, taking vitamins in pill form is very different then actually obtaining it from food. Any well educated person would tell you its true.

sellnACURA

Keep in mind the side airbags. It might be difficult to find a shop to do the conversion correctly. We wont even contract the work out, due to liability.

DWP

Do you mean that the side door panels (where the side airbags hide) are also real leather? Are you sure it's real leather, and not synthetic?

rick955i

Acuras have the side airbags built in to the seat

Neogeek

i test drove the Volvo S40 T5, and it was a real fun car to drive, and the the seats werent lether but instead this stuff that felt like wet suit material...

I have a couple vegan friends, and they respect my eating habbits as i respect theres, ecept they drive old crappy nissans with carpet seats, and have never experienced the true powa of my car.

Isnt the WRX STI cloth? I will check my friends out tommorrow.

Aegir

Watch what you wish for... My point is that demand for beef drives the availability of the leather, and ultimately the existance of the cows themselves - twist that one around in your brain for a bit!

Your subsequent post makes the depths of your beliefs clearer. You shouldn't even consider a car that uses cow parts since it is a moral issue for you. By the way, did you know that tires, brake fluid, and anti-freeze contain cow parts too?

SpecialFX

If you get the TL I'll give you my address to send me the skins . I would prefer it if you get the quartz interior so they'll match.

I normally don't care what people do but in my experience I've found that people who are so concerned about animals and are morally opposed to meat, leather, research, etc. don't have the same concern for people. Not saying that's the case in your situation, just from my experience. I love animals and would never want to see one harmed for no good purpose but anyone who would put an animal over a human being is just nuts.

Also, if you have to take supplements it means your diet is missing something.

SLVR04TL6PD

I ask a technical question about the TL and it gets thrown into the sub-forums where nobody goes. And somehow this useless thread manages to stay alive in the main forum?SVTMIKE hit the nail on the head.


Where are the mods?? End or move this please...
-Chad

narnia

Superballs, ignore the lame replies, I'm sure you expected them.

I won't go further off-topic and rebutt, to each his/her own, but I've been a veggie for 40+ years and I went through the same thing you're going through when I decided I wanted the TL.

FYI only a small part of the seats (the perforated parts) and the wheel and shift knob are actually leather, the rest is synthetic. As much as I try to avoid using any leather/animal products, it's not possible to do so 100% of the time. You have to make your own choices and see what you feel comfortable with.

kosh2258

First, I respect your position, being a pet owner myself I understand your perspective.

Now comes the part that will probably get some raised eyebrows.

There isn't as much leather in the TL's interior as many think there is. The door inserts and arm rests, the console cover and the seating (the formed seat parts & backrests) surfaces are leather as well as parts of the front headrests. The rest is vinyl, albeit a very good quality vinyl. Now, before everyone freaks out, check it out for yourselves.

Go to your car and run your fingers over all the seat surfaces (this is assuming they haven't been treated with something which will mask the finish texture). You'll notice that the leather has a smoother, "harder" feel to it. The vinyl has a stickier, bit more rubbery feel and you'll be able to easily tell the difference between them. The color match is pretty excellent as is the grain match, but the vinyl is very much there.

Of course, as others have pointed out, Acura doesn't offer cloth as an option and reupholstering the seats won't save the animal that's already committed its hide to the process. Point being that there isn't nearly as much leather to replace as one might think on first consideration so replacing it isn't as big a task either.

rsinisi

And don't forget the steering wheel and shifter knob.

Eduardo

The BMW 330i with vinyl seats may be a possible option. A 2004 330i can be had for around $35,000. The price differential is not too vast. They still have their 1.9% APR by the way.

Check out www.bimmerfest.com, a vegan on that site asked a similar question (use the 'search' option).

Granted, you won't get all the gizmos of a TL but after extensively test-driving a TL and a BMW the handling and drive of the BMW is in a class by itself. I LOVE driving my automobile!!!

meathead

yes. but it is almost a special order cuz all the dealers get the optional leather for the cars.

Aegir

Despite being dismissed as a lame and barbaric savage, I truly did find your dilemma intriguing; so much so that I did some research to learn more about vegan philosophy. One particular site that I found discussed the use of a ‘results-based’ vs. an ‘ingredients based’ approach. http://www.veganoutreach.org/starter...eingvegan.html

Selecting a car is especially difficult because all cars utilize animal products either as direct materials or as part of the manufacturing process. Some of the benefits of purchasing a TL include its ULEV status, relatively good fuel economy, and low ownership costs. Other cars may present a better ‘ingredients-based’ alternative, but the value presented by the TL may allow you greater capability to contribute to your beliefs in other ways.

That link also has a section on ‘dealing with others’. Taking advantage of opportunities to build understanding and respect for vegetarianism in public forums almost certainly contributes to that cause more than avoiding leather seats.

I'm sincerely interested in what decision you make and the factors you consider. Thanks.

te3point5

If God didn't intend us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

superballs

im glad to see at least one person has taken 5 minutes of their life to learn something new. that makes my day. if everyone spent 5 minutes everyday learning something instead of just being closed mind, i believe the world would be a better place. before i posted this thread, i was 99.9% ready to trade in my 03- tl-s that i bought before i was vegetarian and go for the 05 tl. at this point, i WILL take a visit to the bmw dealership and volvo dealership to see what else is on the market. i do want a luxury car, and i do like the features that the tl has to offer, but its not my biggest concern. if i find something comparable to the tl, i might shoot for that. im glad to hear the majority of the interior in the tl is vinyl and not leather, and im corious to know why they dont use the same vinyl throughout the whole car. i would bet it holds up much better than the leather portions.
specialfx, like i stated, i dont NEED daily vitamins. i took the same daily vitamins when i ate meat as i do know. im sure without them, i would be fine, but theres a lot of minerals and supplements they have to offer, that im sure anyone could find beneficial.

PoochaKannInc

They don't use vinyl because of the public perception that leather = luxury. And yeah you are correct, the vinyl they use will probably wear better than my wrinkle and butt-print infested leather.

Good luck with your choice in vehicles.

Snive

3 and 5 series BMW's come with "leatherette" standard. The X3/X5 come with Sensatec upholstery, whatever that means. But the SAV's (not SUV??) come with leather wrapped steering wheels. I couldn't find whehter 3 and 5's have leather wrapped steering wheels.

However, that got me to thinking, what manufacturer has steering wheels that aren't leather wrapped in the 30k price range. Also shifter boots or even door trim are going to be leather.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it seems you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.
If you're intentions are to show car manufacturer's that you want a car that does not abuse animals rights. Then you're gonna have to set your sights on something other than a luxury or near-luxury car segment. Or you'll have to work with the dealer/manufacturer directly to ensure that you don't get any animal by-products in your vehicle.

If you're intentions are to lower the levels of animal by-products (instead of completely eliminate) in your car, then you can probably choose any dealer and ask for them to provide an alternative interior trim.

If you're intentions are more personal (i dont' want to touch dead animals, instead of I want to protect living animals), then just get any car and replace the interior parts you don't like.

If you're intentions are to be as Earth-conscious (instead of animal vs. plant conscious) then you may want to seriously consider a bicycle. There are two people at work who ride their bikes, one 10 miles the other just over 20 miles, even in winter. They have families, including children. They also own cars, but don't use them to get to work, unless the weather conditions force it. However, I think on those days they should tele-commute instead, but that's my opinion, not theirs. In a case like this, you may have to investigate getting some sort of electric/soy/alternative fuel vehicle. Just a thought.