Car & Driver reviews 04 TL!
11-28-2003, 11:19 PM
#41
Senior Moderator
I'll be writing a letter to the editor...
"What garden variety of crack was the author smoking?" would be the first sentence. The BMW bias of C & D continues....
"What garden variety of crack was the author smoking?" would be the first sentence. The BMW bias of C & D continues....
11-29-2003, 12:13 AM
#43
You've all spoken of C&D like true owners, or owners-2-B ... no offense, but to those specifically who condemn C&D for poor journalism, or faulty criticism of what you feel is the best car to be had for the $$ .. to YOU .. lighten up!
You forget that they have every make/model/type of car within their reach to drive, compare, criticize. On THEIR roads, under their circumstances, under their weather conditions, and through their road course maneuvers, the RWD platforms performed the best.
Now, MOST people purchasing the TL will not come close to driving it the way C&D tests it .. hmm... I wonder which car, the Bimmer or the Acura ... is better at dropping the kids off at soccer practice .. or which one is better at carting off my groceries?
I think the magazine selection that evaluates these aspects of the car would include Family Circle, Better Homes & Gardens, etc. When you state that purchasing a BMW or an Infiniti is not worth it, remember to include that it's specifically not worth it to you, and you alone. We all clearly justify our purchases differently.
You forget that they have every make/model/type of car within their reach to drive, compare, criticize. On THEIR roads, under their circumstances, under their weather conditions, and through their road course maneuvers, the RWD platforms performed the best.
Now, MOST people purchasing the TL will not come close to driving it the way C&D tests it .. hmm... I wonder which car, the Bimmer or the Acura ... is better at dropping the kids off at soccer practice .. or which one is better at carting off my groceries?
I think the magazine selection that evaluates these aspects of the car would include Family Circle, Better Homes & Gardens, etc. When you state that purchasing a BMW or an Infiniti is not worth it, remember to include that it's specifically not worth it to you, and you alone. We all clearly justify our purchases differently.
11-29-2003, 12:16 AM
#44
Originally posted by neuronbob
I'll be writing a letter to the editor...
"What garden variety of crack was the author smoking?" would be the first sentence. The BMW bias of C & D continues....
I'll be writing a letter to the editor...
"What garden variety of crack was the author smoking?" would be the first sentence. The BMW bias of C & D continues....
who's biased?
11-29-2003, 12:57 AM
#45
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The TSX is a good car and prolly handles very well for a FWD b/c its only a i4 and 200 ponies. therefore there is not any torque steer. w/ the TL its a v6 and 270 ponies so there prolly is torque steer. just like any other high powered fwd v6 there is most likely torque steer. ex altimas and maximas. Many hondas like the tsx and prelude dont have torque steer b/c its only a high reving I4.
11-29-2003, 12:59 AM
#46
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The odd thing about the negative review (from what I've read on here) is that Car and Driver was so favorable about the TL type S two years ago. So with all the improvements that have been made since then, its bizarre that they seem to like the car less in the 3rd generation. Having owned both, I'm amazed by how vastly improved the 3rd generation is. Why didn't C & D elude to these improvements in the review? Seems strange.
11-29-2003, 06:22 AM
#47
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One thought that hit me was that C & D had already seen the TSX, liked it and decided to put it in the 10 Best competition. Likely, too, their 10 Best candidates were pertty much selected b4 this test of the TL. Their "first look" test had been positive, but then when the TL came out with some stong numbers (numbers don't have bias), they needed something to say to justify their not including it.
I stand by my earlier statement that the way most people drive, the TL is way ahead of the G35. I would add that it also has all the smile factor of a BMW 3 series for $5K less.
I stand by my earlier statement that the way most people drive, the TL is way ahead of the G35. I would add that it also has all the smile factor of a BMW 3 series for $5K less.
11-29-2003, 06:46 AM
#48
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Originally posted by youngbuyer
I used to subscribe to C/D, until a friend of a friend stated, "...we have to keep our sponsers happy" wink-wink. Try counting the number of advertisments.
I used to subscribe to C/D, until a friend of a friend stated, "...we have to keep our sponsers happy" wink-wink. Try counting the number of advertisments.
11-29-2003, 08:02 AM
#49
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by PeterUbers
...this coming from a guy who, as far as i can tell from your sig, has already owned three Honda products ...
who's biased?
...this coming from a guy who, as far as i can tell from your sig, has already owned three Honda products ...
who's biased?
Actually, I've owned 6 Honda products in total. I freely admit my bias. But so does C & D, and I still respect their opinion as they are often correct as to the pure driving experience. With that said, I'm disappointed with the review, but it certainly won't cause me to return the car, I'm enjoying it too much! And maybe the next comparo will see the TL nearer the top.
It's also caused me to upgrade my home audio system, but that's another thread.
11-29-2003, 09:50 AM
#51
A.K.A. Karl Hungus
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This is how I see it. Car and Driver pegs their tests to the BMW, as already stated. Second, they drive this car for a day, not 3 to 5 years.
When they drive a BMW, its likely to be on good behavior. They don't have to worry about it starting the next day. Second, they don't have to drive the G35 in nasty weather when it rivals only Rosebut in its sledding ability in the snow.
And then there's the TL. INSTANTLY we hit the bias -- FWD. To them its a turn off, to me its a positive. Makes the difference between getting to work and barely making it to work. Almost all negatives are due to the fact that the car is on this platform.
Now, what Acura knows and C and D don't. They have us, a base of, well, drivers, with enough sense not to want to pay any more than usual maintenance, and actually want a car that stays out of the shop. So they don't advertise NEARLY as much. IE less revenue to C and D, because they sell a product that is already superior.
Here is my reconcilliation -- if you buy a TL, you want comfort and performance for you, and no one else. Not C and D, not those women who actually check your keys for a propeller badge. You're a man or woman who is too busy to worry about "routine maintenance" checks (other than that which we enjoy doing, or do out of, well, love). Too busy to worry about whether the car will start, and too busy to wonder whether you'll actually get to work. Its buy it and forget it luxury, and until I have the money to buy a whole fleet and select my car by day, I will drive a TL.
When they drive a BMW, its likely to be on good behavior. They don't have to worry about it starting the next day. Second, they don't have to drive the G35 in nasty weather when it rivals only Rosebut in its sledding ability in the snow.
And then there's the TL. INSTANTLY we hit the bias -- FWD. To them its a turn off, to me its a positive. Makes the difference between getting to work and barely making it to work. Almost all negatives are due to the fact that the car is on this platform.
Now, what Acura knows and C and D don't. They have us, a base of, well, drivers, with enough sense not to want to pay any more than usual maintenance, and actually want a car that stays out of the shop. So they don't advertise NEARLY as much. IE less revenue to C and D, because they sell a product that is already superior.
Here is my reconcilliation -- if you buy a TL, you want comfort and performance for you, and no one else. Not C and D, not those women who actually check your keys for a propeller badge. You're a man or woman who is too busy to worry about "routine maintenance" checks (other than that which we enjoy doing, or do out of, well, love). Too busy to worry about whether the car will start, and too busy to wonder whether you'll actually get to work. Its buy it and forget it luxury, and until I have the money to buy a whole fleet and select my car by day, I will drive a TL.
11-29-2003, 10:02 AM
#53
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Funny, I think more Acura owners have written letters to the editor in Car and Driver than I have ever read. From stolen headlights to losing comparisons.
I think if the TL was STILL 30k, it would have gotten a more favorable review. FOr 35k, there is really no longer a price advantage. Understand, Car and Driver has ALWAYS stated, they go for the SPORTIEST vehicles unless otherwise stated. For instance the LS 430 won last months' comparo b/c they were looking for the ultimate in luxury not sport. Othewise, the 745 would have wiped it's ass with it.
Since the TL has stubbornly stayed FWD and marketed and sold as a true sports sedan, it will continue to lose and get it's ass kicked by RWD cars. Car and Driver DOES NOT want compromises, they want sport. It is CAR AND DRIVER not CAR and DUDE ON THE CELLPHONE WHILE DRIVING or CAR and PASSENGER.
They have gotten so far the fastest acceleration numbers for the car. And at least they tested it instead of a little article on it or only waiting for a comparison to test it (like the previous TL-S). Maybe it was the same writer that hated the TSX it's first article (and now it's a 10 best winner, which I agree with).
For those that say they are biased toward BMW, no ****, BMW makes the sportiest cars stock, so they kept winning. Only until recently have carmakers gotten their heads out their asses to make true competitors.
If I recall, the TL-S got a 1 page preview article, then in it's 2nd chance, placed 6th out of 9 sports sedans (1. G35 2. 330 3. IS 300).
I am with this guy.
I think if the TL was STILL 30k, it would have gotten a more favorable review. FOr 35k, there is really no longer a price advantage. Understand, Car and Driver has ALWAYS stated, they go for the SPORTIEST vehicles unless otherwise stated. For instance the LS 430 won last months' comparo b/c they were looking for the ultimate in luxury not sport. Othewise, the 745 would have wiped it's ass with it.
Since the TL has stubbornly stayed FWD and marketed and sold as a true sports sedan, it will continue to lose and get it's ass kicked by RWD cars. Car and Driver DOES NOT want compromises, they want sport. It is CAR AND DRIVER not CAR and DUDE ON THE CELLPHONE WHILE DRIVING or CAR and PASSENGER.
They have gotten so far the fastest acceleration numbers for the car. And at least they tested it instead of a little article on it or only waiting for a comparison to test it (like the previous TL-S). Maybe it was the same writer that hated the TSX it's first article (and now it's a 10 best winner, which I agree with).
For those that say they are biased toward BMW, no ****, BMW makes the sportiest cars stock, so they kept winning. Only until recently have carmakers gotten their heads out their asses to make true competitors.
The odd thing about the negative review (from what I've read on here) is that Car and Driver was so favorable about the TL type S two years ago.
front wheel drive is not purist drivers platform, no it ain't no BMW. but is is a good car. relax, it all depends on what perspective you are lookin from . TL is powerful, quiet, , good looking , but it is still a front driver, Car mags never were big on them, as front wheel drive has its limitations, . Live with it, if you love it enough said
11-29-2003, 10:05 AM
#54
Instructor
One benefit of thel ess than stellar review: might keep demand a little lower than a number one rating would have, so those of us trying to get Navi models will have a better chance!
11-29-2003, 10:24 AM
#55
CEO of IMHO
Thread Starter
Bob,
We need to start a new thread. I'm also including new home speakers into my TL purchase price.
I was frankly stunned regarding how much DVD-A sounded in the car vs. my home system. And I have a nice home system!
Jon
We need to start a new thread. I'm also including new home speakers into my TL purchase price.
I was frankly stunned regarding how much DVD-A sounded in the car vs. my home system. And I have a nice home system!
Jon
Originally posted by neuronbob
Actually, I've owned 6 Honda products in total. I freely admit my bias. But so does C & D, and I still respect their opinion as they are often correct as to the pure driving experience. With that said, I'm disappointed with the review, but it certainly won't cause me to return the car, I'm enjoying it too much! And maybe the next comparo will see the TL nearer the top.
It's also caused me to upgrade my home audio system, but that's another thread.
Actually, I've owned 6 Honda products in total. I freely admit my bias. But so does C & D, and I still respect their opinion as they are often correct as to the pure driving experience. With that said, I'm disappointed with the review, but it certainly won't cause me to return the car, I'm enjoying it too much! And maybe the next comparo will see the TL nearer the top.
It's also caused me to upgrade my home audio system, but that's another thread.
11-29-2003, 10:40 AM
#56
CEO of IMHO
Thread Starter
I'm not accusing C&D of BMW bias.
I'm accusing C&D of performing a non-review.
Take aways from the non-review:
It's not not recommended.
It's not RWD.
It's not a 330i.
It's not even a G35.
It's not RWD like S2000 and NSX.
It's on a Accord platform.
There's no comparison to last year's TL.
It's faster than its competition.
It lacks the direct communcation of the BMW's and Infiniti's.
A similarly-equipped G35 costs the same.
A similarly-equipped BMW 330i costs $5k more.
It's weight distribution isn't as even as the G35 or 330i.
It's skidpad is lower than the G35 and 330i.
There are neat goodies inside that no one cares about.
Now, granted, I'm picking out the negatives here... but there are enough of these to drown out the article. The author really did spend more time comparing the TL to the 330i and G35 than actually reviewing the TL itself. It's like it was a comparo, but only focusing on the aspects that make the TL fail the comparo.
Where is "fair and balanced" reporting when you need it?!?!
Jon
I'm accusing C&D of performing a non-review.
Take aways from the non-review:
It's not not recommended.
It's not RWD.
It's not a 330i.
It's not even a G35.
It's not RWD like S2000 and NSX.
It's on a Accord platform.
There's no comparison to last year's TL.
It's faster than its competition.
It lacks the direct communcation of the BMW's and Infiniti's.
A similarly-equipped G35 costs the same.
A similarly-equipped BMW 330i costs $5k more.
It's weight distribution isn't as even as the G35 or 330i.
It's skidpad is lower than the G35 and 330i.
There are neat goodies inside that no one cares about.
Now, granted, I'm picking out the negatives here... but there are enough of these to drown out the article. The author really did spend more time comparing the TL to the 330i and G35 than actually reviewing the TL itself. It's like it was a comparo, but only focusing on the aspects that make the TL fail the comparo.
Where is "fair and balanced" reporting when you need it?!?!
Jon
11-29-2003, 10:55 AM
#57
"they trashed the new five , like old better" - what, and this proves they like BMW better than BMW? 
C&D is pretty weak when it comes to reviewing cars beyond raw performance numbers, so don't go looking for quality journalism there (esp. with the $$ in advertising). If you totally disregard everything they say about BMW in every review of almost every other car on the planet, then you often end up with a decent review... though I DO find it interesting, like JD, that this was more of a "non-review" - this was similar, but worse, then what they did for the TSX.
C&D is pretty weak when it comes to reviewing cars beyond raw performance numbers, so don't go looking for quality journalism there (esp. with the $$ in advertising). If you totally disregard everything they say about BMW in every review of almost every other car on the planet, then you often end up with a decent review... though I DO find it interesting, like JD, that this was more of a "non-review" - this was similar, but worse, then what they did for the TSX.
11-29-2003, 10:56 AM
#58
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by JonDeutsch
I'm not accusing C&D of BMW bias.
I'm accusing C&D of performing a non-review.
Take aways from the non-review:
It's not not recommended.
It's not RWD.
It's not a 330i.
It's not even a G35.
It's not RWD like S2000 and NSX.
It's on a Accord platform.
There's no comparison to last year's TL.
It's faster than its competition.
It lacks the direct communcation of the BMW's and Infiniti's.
A similarly-equipped G35 costs the same.
A similarly-equipped BMW 330i costs $5k more.
It's weight distribution isn't as even as the G35 or 330i.
It's skidpad is lower than the G35 and 330i.
There are neat goodies inside that no one cares about.
Now, granted, I'm picking out the negatives here... but there are enough of these to drown out the article. The author really did spend more time comparing the TL to the 330i and G35 than actually reviewing the TL itself. It's like it was a comparo, but only focusing on the aspects that make the TL fail the comparo.
Where is "fair and balanced" reporting when you need it?!?!
Jon
I'm not accusing C&D of BMW bias.
I'm accusing C&D of performing a non-review.
Take aways from the non-review:
It's not not recommended.
It's not RWD.
It's not a 330i.
It's not even a G35.
It's not RWD like S2000 and NSX.
It's on a Accord platform.
There's no comparison to last year's TL.
It's faster than its competition.
It lacks the direct communcation of the BMW's and Infiniti's.
A similarly-equipped G35 costs the same.
A similarly-equipped BMW 330i costs $5k more.
It's weight distribution isn't as even as the G35 or 330i.
It's skidpad is lower than the G35 and 330i.
There are neat goodies inside that no one cares about.
Now, granted, I'm picking out the negatives here... but there are enough of these to drown out the article. The author really did spend more time comparing the TL to the 330i and G35 than actually reviewing the TL itself. It's like it was a comparo, but only focusing on the aspects that make the TL fail the comparo.
Where is "fair and balanced" reporting when you need it?!?!
Jon
Honestly, I don't even understand why the TL isn't compared to other cars more in its class such as the ES330, I35, Maxima, Volvo, Audi, and various other makers of sporty FWD. Is it really a big shocker that the 330 and G35 have better handling? Unlike the universal accord platform, their chassis was designed to be in a sports car rather than a mainstream family sedan.
1sicklex had a good point about C&D being sports oriented. I bet R&T and Motortrend will have the same results. The 330 and G35 are better drivers cars under dry conditions. Wait till Edmunds or Consumer Reports do their reviews and the TL will certainly garner much more respect due to its everyday driveability.
11-29-2003, 11:50 AM
#59
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The author really did spend more time comparing the TL to the 330i and G35 than actually reviewing the TL itself
Car and Driver still gets my $10 a year. Great editors and writers. Very fair reviews. Motor Trend, I canceled, they are horrible. As is Road and Track. Automobile is pretty bad too.
I get EVO, CAR and Top Gear, they are sold in Europe. Best damn articles and pics. though they mostly test cars we don't get. And they rarely test cars they don't get. Jeremy Clarkson ownsz all of them.
I don't even understand why the TL isn't compared to other cars more in its class such as the ES330, I35, Maxima, Volvo, Audi,
If u think this review was bad, the inital preview test of the CL-S was called the Japanese Thunderbird. Or the 1 page review of the RL a few months ago when they basically said why even bother build the thing. The Saturn Ion got blasted in there. The FX 45 got 3rd place and it got good reviews initally (out of 4 SUVs).
In comparing my previous car, the GS recently placed 3rd, 2nd was the A6 (which would have placed third but stupid Lexus put the 16" wheels on the GS) and the 540 was 1st. I cannot argue with this. The Q45 was 4th (a ballerina in high heels was a quote), the S-type was 5th, the Caddy Deville 6th (non-sport). Fair to me.
The RX-8 beat the G35c and Mustang Cobra for best sport coupe that seats 4. Fair to me.
The S2000 beat the TT, 350Z, Z4 for best convertible. Fair to me.
They have a real strong track record in my book.
11-29-2003, 12:46 PM
#60
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My test drives and Car & Driver article
Hey guys...I am currently shopping for a car to replace my '92 Honda Prelude (which has been a great handling, fun to drive, and flawlessly reliable car for many years). I'm looking for a four-door entry level luxury car with an emphasis on "sport" and "fun to drive" characteristics (reliability and cost of ownership is obviously big in the equation as well).
Yesterday I test drove, back-to-back, the following cars: Audi A4 3.0 Quattro (6-speed manual), Acura TL (6-speed & Sequential Auto), and BMW 325Xi (5-speed manual).
Upon returning from these test drives, the January issue of Car and Driver was in my mailbox with their review of the 6-speed TL and I must say...I could not disagree more strongly with C&D's comments regarding "the wicked torque steer of the 6-speed TL". More comments on this later (see below).
My observations from the test drive: Audi & BMW are obviously smaller cars with noticeable tighter back seat (We have two children and being able to take the kids & carseats in this vehicle is something we would like to do...although our Toyota Sequoia performs primary family hauling duties).
On to the test drive. We drove these vehicles over the same test loop, some concrete highway, but mostly back road which included broken pavement and alot of twisties where I had the opportunity to drive all three vehicles at 7-8/10th's (note...the sales consultant was on all test drives and I wasn't trying to put my wife and I or the salesman in any danger driving vehicles that I wasn't absolutely familiar with in terms of "at the limits" handling).
We drove the Audi first. The Audi probably got the highest marks for it's very solid structure and solid handling (it did seem to have that 1/2 to 1 extra suspension bob over bumps...not as well damped as the TL or BMW. The power was merely adequate and both my wife and I struggled with the clutch and shifter action in this vehicle, especially when trying to accelerate from a stop aggressively through the first 3 gears. I would describe the shifter as notchy and somewhat rubbery.
We drove the TL next and requested the 6-speed first. Oh my!! The TL exhaust note upon startup and accelerating from a stop is intoxicating. The significant extra thrust versus the audi & bmw was immediately noticeable. I also must say that in the twisties, the 6-speed TL felt extremely connected at all times and even somewhat more "tossable" than the audi and on par with the bmw. I also must say that the 6-speed manual of the TL was infinitely more precise and easy to modulate than the rubbery shifter of the Audi. I also rate the TL clutch/shifter superior to the BMW 5-speed manual as well, although the BMW was significantly smoother than the Audi. I was immediately comfortable with the "snick-snick-snick" shifter and clutch action of this TL, and it was so easy (second nature really) to operate that if I place an order for the TL, I most definitely will be getting a 6-speed.
Our test drive included very aggressive accelerating through the first three gears of all cars listed here. This included full throttle acceleration out of and through twisties rated at 25-35 mph (We obviously where blasting through these curves at 50-60mph). With the Audi & BMW being all-wheel-drive models, there was absolutely no sensation of torque steer as would be expected. Now the TL: (and this is where I feel that C&D was on some sort of mind altering drug for their test drive) at no time during our test drive of the TL (6speed or automatic) did I detect a hint of torque steer. I repeat...During hard acceleration and powering through and out of the twisties, I did not detect one iota of the dreaded torque steer that C&D spent 4 pages complaining about in their review (Could it be that the TL sample that they received had a bad LSD???). This is the most neutral FWD drive car I have ever driven!...including my current Honda Prelude. The car was stable and extremely powerful with excellent feedback (much more so in the 6-speed model than the sequential automatic TL).
I included the 325Xi in our test drive because in all the comparison reviews, the BMW is always "the standard" of comparison. Yeah whatever... I agree that the BMW was a very tossable, competent handler, and probably did the best job of providing sporty handling while delivering a suspension that also did the best job of these three (by a slight margin) of swallowing up broken pavement and irregularities. I realize that power wise, the BMW is way down compared to the TL and it showed. After driving the TL, I was spoiled by it's power and the 325Xi left me wanting more.
That's where the value equation comes into play (All with no Navigation System). The 325Xi, equipped like you typically find them on the lot with features similar to the TL is priced in the $37-38K range. Stepping up to 330Xi sends you quickly into the low to mid-$40's range. The Audi 3.0 is also in the $39-41K range comparable equipped. Then you have the TL at ~$33K...The value here is undeniable especially with the '04 TL where the fit/finish of the exterior/interior is on par and in may areas exceeds the two german brands that I drove.
To close (sorry for such a long post) I am extremely impressed with the new '04 TL and it is easily at the top of my list (Anthracite/Quartz, 6-Speed, Non-NAV). I still would like to drive the Infinity G35 (the all-wheel drive option intrigues me, but I'm very disappointed that you can't get that option with a 6-speed manual), and possible the Saab 9-3.
Based on the cars I drove, I feel like it should be on C&D's Ten Best list for what it offers per dollar. I read the C&D January review and simply don't know what they were thinking with regards to the torque steer thing. I read this article within 1 hour of my test drive and have to wonder if the model they drove had some mechanical issue or defect with it's LSD. It seems like their torque steer comments may have kept it off of this year's 10 best list......JMHO, this new TL has no discernable torque steer and as I reflect back on my test drive of these three, the TL drove and accelerated with the neutrality of the two all-wheel-drive germans.
Yesterday I test drove, back-to-back, the following cars: Audi A4 3.0 Quattro (6-speed manual), Acura TL (6-speed & Sequential Auto), and BMW 325Xi (5-speed manual).
Upon returning from these test drives, the January issue of Car and Driver was in my mailbox with their review of the 6-speed TL and I must say...I could not disagree more strongly with C&D's comments regarding "the wicked torque steer of the 6-speed TL". More comments on this later (see below).
My observations from the test drive: Audi & BMW are obviously smaller cars with noticeable tighter back seat (We have two children and being able to take the kids & carseats in this vehicle is something we would like to do...although our Toyota Sequoia performs primary family hauling duties).
On to the test drive. We drove these vehicles over the same test loop, some concrete highway, but mostly back road which included broken pavement and alot of twisties where I had the opportunity to drive all three vehicles at 7-8/10th's (note...the sales consultant was on all test drives and I wasn't trying to put my wife and I or the salesman in any danger driving vehicles that I wasn't absolutely familiar with in terms of "at the limits" handling).
We drove the Audi first. The Audi probably got the highest marks for it's very solid structure and solid handling (it did seem to have that 1/2 to 1 extra suspension bob over bumps...not as well damped as the TL or BMW. The power was merely adequate and both my wife and I struggled with the clutch and shifter action in this vehicle, especially when trying to accelerate from a stop aggressively through the first 3 gears. I would describe the shifter as notchy and somewhat rubbery.
We drove the TL next and requested the 6-speed first. Oh my!! The TL exhaust note upon startup and accelerating from a stop is intoxicating. The significant extra thrust versus the audi & bmw was immediately noticeable. I also must say that in the twisties, the 6-speed TL felt extremely connected at all times and even somewhat more "tossable" than the audi and on par with the bmw. I also must say that the 6-speed manual of the TL was infinitely more precise and easy to modulate than the rubbery shifter of the Audi. I also rate the TL clutch/shifter superior to the BMW 5-speed manual as well, although the BMW was significantly smoother than the Audi. I was immediately comfortable with the "snick-snick-snick" shifter and clutch action of this TL, and it was so easy (second nature really) to operate that if I place an order for the TL, I most definitely will be getting a 6-speed.
Our test drive included very aggressive accelerating through the first three gears of all cars listed here. This included full throttle acceleration out of and through twisties rated at 25-35 mph (We obviously where blasting through these curves at 50-60mph). With the Audi & BMW being all-wheel-drive models, there was absolutely no sensation of torque steer as would be expected. Now the TL: (and this is where I feel that C&D was on some sort of mind altering drug for their test drive) at no time during our test drive of the TL (6speed or automatic) did I detect a hint of torque steer. I repeat...During hard acceleration and powering through and out of the twisties, I did not detect one iota of the dreaded torque steer that C&D spent 4 pages complaining about in their review (Could it be that the TL sample that they received had a bad LSD???). This is the most neutral FWD drive car I have ever driven!...including my current Honda Prelude. The car was stable and extremely powerful with excellent feedback (much more so in the 6-speed model than the sequential automatic TL).
I included the 325Xi in our test drive because in all the comparison reviews, the BMW is always "the standard" of comparison. Yeah whatever... I agree that the BMW was a very tossable, competent handler, and probably did the best job of providing sporty handling while delivering a suspension that also did the best job of these three (by a slight margin) of swallowing up broken pavement and irregularities. I realize that power wise, the BMW is way down compared to the TL and it showed. After driving the TL, I was spoiled by it's power and the 325Xi left me wanting more.
That's where the value equation comes into play (All with no Navigation System). The 325Xi, equipped like you typically find them on the lot with features similar to the TL is priced in the $37-38K range. Stepping up to 330Xi sends you quickly into the low to mid-$40's range. The Audi 3.0 is also in the $39-41K range comparable equipped. Then you have the TL at ~$33K...The value here is undeniable especially with the '04 TL where the fit/finish of the exterior/interior is on par and in may areas exceeds the two german brands that I drove.
To close (sorry for such a long post) I am extremely impressed with the new '04 TL and it is easily at the top of my list (Anthracite/Quartz, 6-Speed, Non-NAV). I still would like to drive the Infinity G35 (the all-wheel drive option intrigues me, but I'm very disappointed that you can't get that option with a 6-speed manual), and possible the Saab 9-3.
Based on the cars I drove, I feel like it should be on C&D's Ten Best list for what it offers per dollar. I read the C&D January review and simply don't know what they were thinking with regards to the torque steer thing. I read this article within 1 hour of my test drive and have to wonder if the model they drove had some mechanical issue or defect with it's LSD. It seems like their torque steer comments may have kept it off of this year's 10 best list......JMHO, this new TL has no discernable torque steer and as I reflect back on my test drive of these three, the TL drove and accelerated with the neutrality of the two all-wheel-drive germans.
11-29-2003, 01:46 PM
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Great comparo cstls! I agree 100%. The new TL has astonishing low torque steer for a high powered FWD car. IMHO C&D has a ulterior motive for their bias against the TL.
11-29-2003, 01:57 PM
#63
A guess: people who complain about the torque steer drive nothing but RWD vehicles, and so notice the difference immediately on hard driving. People who drive FWD currently are impressed with the "lack" of torque steer on the TL. Likewise, I'd imagine that people that currently drive FWD would complain about how "wild" the back end is on high-powered RWD sport-sedans (G35 anyone?), which is an equally valid criticism in my book.
11-29-2003, 02:14 PM
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vitocoleone, I agree. There is a feeling a FWD car gives when driven hard, that is different from RWD, that is not necessarily torque steer. Torque steer is not having to correct your steering wheel to change your course when cornering. If so my RWD 911 Carerra had tons of torque steer. Isn't it interesting that the really bad combination of rear engine and RWD in the 911 is rarely criticized, but the FWD of the TL is not a "driver's car" I will say it again the TL is twice the car my 911 ever was!
11-29-2003, 03:05 PM
#65
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Originally posted by vitocorleone
A guess: people who complain about the torque steer drive nothing but RWD vehicles, and so notice the difference immediately on hard driving.....
A guess: people who complain about the torque steer drive nothing but RWD vehicles, and so notice the difference immediately on hard driving.....
Originally posted by JonDeutsch
We need to start a new thread. I'm also including new home speakers into my TL purchase price.
I was frankly stunned regarding how much DVD-A sounded in the car vs. my home system. And I have a nice home system!
We need to start a new thread. I'm also including new home speakers into my TL purchase price.
I was frankly stunned regarding how much DVD-A sounded in the car vs. my home system. And I have a nice home system!
My home system stinks, it's a cheap, early (from 5 years ago) HTIB. I think I'm going with the Onix Rocket ELT-1 speaker system, looks good and reviews from customers are good, and I've already purchased a new Yamaha RX-V1400.
11-29-2003, 03:21 PM
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My test drives and Car & Driver article
Hey guys...I am currently shopping for a car to replace my '92 Honda Prelude (which has been a great handling, fun to drive, and flawlessly reliable car for many years). I'm looking for a four-door entry level luxury car with an emphasis on "sport" and "fun to drive" characteristics (reliability and cost of ownership is obviously big in the equation as well).
Yesterday I test drove, back-to-back, the following cars: Audi A4 3.0 Quattro (6-speed manual), Acura TL (6-speed & Sequential Auto), and BMW 325Xi (5-speed manual).
Upon returning from these test drives, the January issue of Car and Driver was in my mailbox with their review of the 6-speed TL and I must say...I could not disagree more strongly with C&D's comments regarding "the wicked torque steer of the 6-speed TL". More comments on this later (see below).
My observations from the test drive: Audi & BMW are obviously smaller cars with noticeable tighter back seat (We have two children and being able to take the kids & carseats in this vehicle is something we would like to do...although our Toyota Sequoia performs primary family hauling duties).
On to the test drive. We drove these vehicles over the same test loop, some concrete highway, but mostly back road which included broken pavement and alot of twisties where I had the opportunity to drive all three vehicles at 7-8/10th's (note...the sales consultant was on all test drives and I wasn't trying to put my wife and I or the salesman in any danger driving vehicles that I wasn't absolutely familiar with in terms of "at the limits" handling).
We drove the Audi first. The Audi probably got the highest marks for it's very solid structure and solid handling (it did seem to have that 1/2 to 1 extra suspension bob over bumps...not as well damped as the TL or BMW. The power was merely adequate and both my wife and I struggled with the clutch and shifter action in this vehicle, especially when trying to accelerate from a stop aggressively through the first 3 gears. I would describe the shifter as notchy and somewhat rubbery.
We drove the TL next and requested the 6-speed first. Oh my!! The TL exhaust note upon startup and accelerating from a stop is intoxicating. The significant extra thrust versus the audi & bmw was immediately noticeable. I also must say that in the twisties, the 6-speed TL felt extremely connected at all times and even somewhat more "tossable" than the audi and on par with the bmw. I also must say that the 6-speed manual of the TL was infinitely more precise and easy to modulate than the rubbery shifter of the Audi. I also rate the TL clutch/shifter superior to the BMW 5-speed manual as well, although the BMW was significantly smoother than the Audi. I was immediately comfortable with the "snick-snick-snick" shifter and clutch action of this TL, and it was so easy (second nature really) to operate that if I place an order for the TL, I most definitely will be getting a 6-speed.
Our test drive included very aggressive accelerating through the first three gears of all cars listed here. This included full throttle acceleration out of and through twisties rated at 25-35 mph (We obviously where blasting through these curves at 50-60mph). With the Audi & BMW being all-wheel-drive models, there was absolutely no sensation of torque steer as would be expected. Now the TL: (and this is where I feel that C&D was on some sort of mind altering drug for their test drive) at no time during our test drive of the TL (6speed or automatic) did I detect a hint of torque steer. I repeat...During hard acceleration and powering through and out of the twisties, I did not detect one iota of the dreaded torque steer that C&D spent 4 pages complaining about in their review (Could it be that the TL sample that they received had a bad LSD???). This is the most neutral FWD drive car I have ever driven!...including my current Honda Prelude. The car was stable and extremely powerful with excellent feedback (much more so in the 6-speed model than the sequential automatic TL).
I included the 325Xi in our test drive because in all the comparison reviews, the BMW is always "the standard" of comparison. Yeah whatever... I agree that the BMW was a very tossable, competent handler, and probably did the best job of providing sporty handling while delivering a suspension that also did the best job of these three (by a slight margin) of swallowing up broken pavement and irregularities. I realize that power wise, the BMW is way down compared to the TL and it showed. After driving the TL, I was spoiled by it's power and the 325Xi left me wanting more.
That's where the value equation comes into play (All with no Navigation System). The 325Xi, equipped like you typically find them on the lot with features similar to the TL is priced in the $37-38K range. Stepping up to 330Xi sends you quickly into the low to mid-$40's range. The Audi 3.0 is also in the $39-41K range comparable equipped. Then you have the TL at ~$33K...The value here is undeniable especially with the '04 TL where the fit/finish of the exterior/interior is on par and in may areas exceeds the two german brands that I drove.
To close (sorry for such a long post) I am extremely impressed with the new '04 TL and it is easily at the top of my list (Anthracite/Quartz, 6-Speed, Non-NAV). I still would like to drive the Infinity G35 (the all-wheel drive option intrigues me, but I'm very disappointed that you can't get that option with a 6-speed manual), and possible the Saab 9-3.
Based on the cars I drove, I feel like it should be on C&D's Ten Best list for what it offers per dollar. I read the C&D January review and simply don't know what they were thinking with regards to the torque steer thing. I read this article within 1 hour of my test drive and have to wonder if the model they drove had some mechanical issue or defect with it's LSD. It seems like their torque steer comments may have kept it off of this year's 10 best list......JMHO, this new TL has no discernable torque steer and as I reflect back on my test drive of these three, the TL drove and accelerated with the neutrality of the two all-wheel-drive germans.
Yesterday I test drove, back-to-back, the following cars: Audi A4 3.0 Quattro (6-speed manual), Acura TL (6-speed & Sequential Auto), and BMW 325Xi (5-speed manual).
Upon returning from these test drives, the January issue of Car and Driver was in my mailbox with their review of the 6-speed TL and I must say...I could not disagree more strongly with C&D's comments regarding "the wicked torque steer of the 6-speed TL". More comments on this later (see below).
My observations from the test drive: Audi & BMW are obviously smaller cars with noticeable tighter back seat (We have two children and being able to take the kids & carseats in this vehicle is something we would like to do...although our Toyota Sequoia performs primary family hauling duties).
On to the test drive. We drove these vehicles over the same test loop, some concrete highway, but mostly back road which included broken pavement and alot of twisties where I had the opportunity to drive all three vehicles at 7-8/10th's (note...the sales consultant was on all test drives and I wasn't trying to put my wife and I or the salesman in any danger driving vehicles that I wasn't absolutely familiar with in terms of "at the limits" handling).
We drove the Audi first. The Audi probably got the highest marks for it's very solid structure and solid handling (it did seem to have that 1/2 to 1 extra suspension bob over bumps...not as well damped as the TL or BMW. The power was merely adequate and both my wife and I struggled with the clutch and shifter action in this vehicle, especially when trying to accelerate from a stop aggressively through the first 3 gears. I would describe the shifter as notchy and somewhat rubbery.
We drove the TL next and requested the 6-speed first. Oh my!! The TL exhaust note upon startup and accelerating from a stop is intoxicating. The significant extra thrust versus the audi & bmw was immediately noticeable. I also must say that in the twisties, the 6-speed TL felt extremely connected at all times and even somewhat more "tossable" than the audi and on par with the bmw. I also must say that the 6-speed manual of the TL was infinitely more precise and easy to modulate than the rubbery shifter of the Audi. I also rate the TL clutch/shifter superior to the BMW 5-speed manual as well, although the BMW was significantly smoother than the Audi. I was immediately comfortable with the "snick-snick-snick" shifter and clutch action of this TL, and it was so easy (second nature really) to operate that if I place an order for the TL, I most definitely will be getting a 6-speed.
Our test drive included very aggressive accelerating through the first three gears of all cars listed here. This included full throttle acceleration out of and through twisties rated at 25-35 mph (We obviously where blasting through these curves at 50-60mph). With the Audi & BMW being all-wheel-drive models, there was absolutely no sensation of torque steer as would be expected. Now the TL: (and this is where I feel that C&D was on some sort of mind altering drug for their test drive) at no time during our test drive of the TL (6speed or automatic) did I detect a hint of torque steer. I repeat...During hard acceleration and powering through and out of the twisties, I did not detect one iota of the dreaded torque steer that C&D spent 4 pages complaining about in their review (Could it be that the TL sample that they received had a bad LSD???). This is the most neutral FWD drive car I have ever driven!...including my current Honda Prelude. The car was stable and extremely powerful with excellent feedback (much more so in the 6-speed model than the sequential automatic TL).
I included the 325Xi in our test drive because in all the comparison reviews, the BMW is always "the standard" of comparison. Yeah whatever... I agree that the BMW was a very tossable, competent handler, and probably did the best job of providing sporty handling while delivering a suspension that also did the best job of these three (by a slight margin) of swallowing up broken pavement and irregularities. I realize that power wise, the BMW is way down compared to the TL and it showed. After driving the TL, I was spoiled by it's power and the 325Xi left me wanting more.
That's where the value equation comes into play (All with no Navigation System). The 325Xi, equipped like you typically find them on the lot with features similar to the TL is priced in the $37-38K range. Stepping up to 330Xi sends you quickly into the low to mid-$40's range. The Audi 3.0 is also in the $39-41K range comparable equipped. Then you have the TL at ~$33K...The value here is undeniable especially with the '04 TL where the fit/finish of the exterior/interior is on par and in may areas exceeds the two german brands that I drove.
To close (sorry for such a long post) I am extremely impressed with the new '04 TL and it is easily at the top of my list (Anthracite/Quartz, 6-Speed, Non-NAV). I still would like to drive the Infinity G35 (the all-wheel drive option intrigues me, but I'm very disappointed that you can't get that option with a 6-speed manual), and possible the Saab 9-3.
Based on the cars I drove, I feel like it should be on C&D's Ten Best list for what it offers per dollar. I read the C&D January review and simply don't know what they were thinking with regards to the torque steer thing. I read this article within 1 hour of my test drive and have to wonder if the model they drove had some mechanical issue or defect with it's LSD. It seems like their torque steer comments may have kept it off of this year's 10 best list......JMHO, this new TL has no discernable torque steer and as I reflect back on my test drive of these three, the TL drove and accelerated with the neutrality of the two all-wheel-drive germans.
11-29-2003, 03:40 PM
#67
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Sorry for the double post above
My browser keeps putting me into some sort of new post mode and resubmits my latest post (not sure why).
You guys have raised good points regarding the way a FWD vehicle drives versus a RWD vehicle. I am certainly used to driving FWD vehicles (a Honda Prelude currently).
Lakeman (as you are the previous owner of a 911), I think it's incredible that you comment that your TL is twice the car your 911 ever was!
I certainly agree that the new TL is most certainly a "driver's car" (one that behind the wheel is precise, tossable, and much more fun than my current prelude--might have something to do with the surgically precise 6-speed and 270hp! ).
The simple fact of the matter is that the TL's suspension is equally up to the task with extremely flat handling in the corners.
During my test drive, the Acura salesperson (who also sells Subarus--as this is a combined dealership) stated that he felt the TL 6-speed was much more of a car than either the WRX and the STi in the performance department. As he clarified, driving turbo charged cars is definitely a different experience than driving normally aspirated cars, and with the TL the power is seamless and "always" there.
You guys have raised good points regarding the way a FWD vehicle drives versus a RWD vehicle. I am certainly used to driving FWD vehicles (a Honda Prelude currently).
Lakeman (as you are the previous owner of a 911), I think it's incredible that you comment that your TL is twice the car your 911 ever was!
I certainly agree that the new TL is most certainly a "driver's car" (one that behind the wheel is precise, tossable, and much more fun than my current prelude--might have something to do with the surgically precise 6-speed and 270hp!
). The simple fact of the matter is that the TL's suspension is equally up to the task with extremely flat handling in the corners.
During my test drive, the Acura salesperson (who also sells Subarus--as this is a combined dealership) stated that he felt the TL 6-speed was much more of a car than either the WRX and the STi in the performance department. As he clarified, driving turbo charged cars is definitely a different experience than driving normally aspirated cars, and with the TL the power is seamless and "always" there.
11-29-2003, 03:45 PM
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guess: people who complain about the torque steer drive nothing but RWD vehicles, and so notice the difference immediately on hard driving. People who drive FWD currently are impressed with the "lack" of torque steer on the TL. Likewise, I'd imagine that people that currently drive FWD would complain about how "wild" the back end is on high-powered RWD sport-sedans (G35 anyone?), which is an equally valid criticism in my book.
During my test drive, the Acura salesperson (who also sells Subarus--as this is a combined dealership) stated that he felt the TL 6-speed was much more of a car than either the WRX and the STi in the performance department.
Those 2 own the TL in performance as the TL owns them in luxury and features.
11-29-2003, 04:16 PM
#69
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got my copy today. They definitely focused way too much on the FWD aspect, and given how much they liked the CL-S 6sp and previous TL-S, it seems somewhat unjustified. And they weren't complaining of just some torque steer, it seemed they were complaining of consistant, uber torque steer. 10hp more than the last gen, this time with an LSD and other innovations, and it's that much worse? come on
11-29-2003, 04:28 PM
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Response to 1sicklex above regarding WRX / STi comment
I guess it didn't come through very clearly in my post. His real comment comparing the TL to the WRX and STi was from a "Total Package" standpoint....(Performance & Luxury considered in the context of the price of entry $$).
Hope that clarifies the statement....I have not driven the WRX or the STi, but reviews of these cars certainly indicate that they are performance icons in their segment (with interior appointments that certainly aren't trying to fill in the "luxury" part of the equation).
Hope that clarifies the statement....I have not driven the WRX or the STi, but reviews of these cars certainly indicate that they are performance icons in their segment (with interior appointments that certainly aren't trying to fill in the "luxury" part of the equation).
11-29-2003, 04:41 PM
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Re: Sorry for the double post above
Originally posted by cstls
Lakeman (as you are the previous owner of a 911), I think it's incredible that you comment that your TL is twice the car your 911 ever was!
Lakeman (as you are the previous owner of a 911), I think it's incredible that you comment that your TL is twice the car your 911 ever was!
11-29-2003, 05:05 PM
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Reply to lakeman
Lakeman, thanks for the clarification on your 911.
Your comment about the "two cars in one" really rings true.
I was amazed at how much I enjoyed putting the 6speed TL through the twisties (much more than my current Prelude, more than the Audi A4 3.0, and about equal to the 325Xi) so the TL really shows it's sport side. The flip side is that the TL is supremely luxurious and can carry a family or load of adults in comfort.
Your comment about the "two cars in one" really rings true.
I was amazed at how much I enjoyed putting the 6speed TL through the twisties (much more than my current Prelude, more than the Audi A4 3.0, and about equal to the 325Xi) so the TL really shows it's sport side. The flip side is that the TL is supremely luxurious and can carry a family or load of adults in comfort.
11-29-2003, 05:35 PM
#73
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cstls,
Thanks so much for your positive review (esp back-to-back!). It really helps a guy like me on the brink of buying feel better about his decision.
Jon
PS - I'm probably pulling the trigger on a 6MT this week, assuming I can get my prescribed discount off of MSRP.
Thanks so much for your positive review (esp back-to-back!). It really helps a guy like me on the brink of buying feel better about his decision.
Jon
PS - I'm probably pulling the trigger on a 6MT this week, assuming I can get my prescribed discount off of MSRP.
11-29-2003, 05:40 PM
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Lakeman: You said "Torque steer is not having to correct your steering wheel to change your course when cornering. "
This is confusing and not the greatest definition of torque steer. More simply put, torque steer is when you apply power (press the gas pedal) and the steering wheel and front wheels turn a little, or try to turn against you holding the wheel firmly in one place. The effect can be felt going straight or in a corner. Test for its presence by accelerating strongly in first or second or even third gear, going straight, with a light grip on the wheel. If as you add power the wheel tries to turn and you let it, you won't be going straight anymore. Just watch the steering wheel as you add and subract power. Also watch where you are going!
This is confusing and not the greatest definition of torque steer. More simply put, torque steer is when you apply power (press the gas pedal) and the steering wheel and front wheels turn a little, or try to turn against you holding the wheel firmly in one place. The effect can be felt going straight or in a corner. Test for its presence by accelerating strongly in first or second or even third gear, going straight, with a light grip on the wheel. If as you add power the wheel tries to turn and you let it, you won't be going straight anymore. Just watch the steering wheel as you add and subract power. Also watch where you are going!
11-29-2003, 05:45 PM
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Torque steer is also noticeable when you try to apply power out of a right hander - instead of straightening out, the car tries even harder to keep turning to the right.
One thing's for sure: you'll never forget that the TL is a front driver.
One thing's for sure: you'll never forget that the TL is a front driver.
11-29-2003, 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by erikmoeser
Lakeman: You said "Torque steer is not having to correct your steering wheel to change your course when cornering. "
This is confusing and not the greatest definition of torque steer. More simply put, torque steer is when you apply power (press the gas pedal) and the steering wheel and front wheels turn a little, or try to turn against you holding the wheel firmly in one place. The effect can be felt going straight or in a corner. Test for its presence by accelerating strongly in first or second or even third gear, going straight, with a light grip on the wheel. If as you add power the wheel tries to turn and you let it, you won't be going straight anymore. Just watch the steering wheel as you add and subract power. Also watch where you are going!
Lakeman: You said "Torque steer is not having to correct your steering wheel to change your course when cornering. "
This is confusing and not the greatest definition of torque steer. More simply put, torque steer is when you apply power (press the gas pedal) and the steering wheel and front wheels turn a little, or try to turn against you holding the wheel firmly in one place. The effect can be felt going straight or in a corner. Test for its presence by accelerating strongly in first or second or even third gear, going straight, with a light grip on the wheel. If as you add power the wheel tries to turn and you let it, you won't be going straight anymore. Just watch the steering wheel as you add and subract power. Also watch where you are going!
11-29-2003, 08:18 PM
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So, I took the TL for another test drive today, with the C&D review fresh in mind. I focused on the aspects of performance that C&D had a problem with, of course.
Well, now I think I see what they are complaining about. The 6MT was jumpy around turns at high speeds, and had pretty hefty understeer, again, at high speeds. It was not "light" and "tossable" around sharp turns. It was a fight when taking turns at high speeds.
I probably should go test drive a G35 to see how a RWD car compares (ie., maybe I'm being too harsh of a critic now that I have a harsh critic's view in mind?). And then I'll have to figure out exactly how much I'm willing to give up (ergonomics, reliability, DVD-A, V-NAVI, HFL, etc.) for sharper cornering capabilities.
To C&D's point, tis a shame I can't have it all.
Jon
Well, now I think I see what they are complaining about. The 6MT was jumpy around turns at high speeds, and had pretty hefty understeer, again, at high speeds. It was not "light" and "tossable" around sharp turns. It was a fight
when taking turns at high speeds.I probably should go test drive a G35 to see how a RWD car compares (ie., maybe I'm being too harsh of a critic now that I have a harsh critic's view in mind?). And then I'll have to figure out exactly how much I'm willing to give up (ergonomics, reliability, DVD-A, V-NAVI, HFL, etc.) for sharper cornering capabilities.
To C&D's point, tis a shame I can't have it all.
Jon
11-29-2003, 08:21 PM
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Re: guys if you like your car ,who cares BUT
Originally posted by jyg tl 3
front wheel drive is not purist drivers platform, no it ain't no BMW. but is is a good car. relax, it all depends on what perspective you are lookin from . TL is powerful, quiet, , good looking , but it is still a front driver, Car mags never were big on them, as front wheel drive has its limitations, . Live with it, if you love it enough said
front wheel drive is not purist drivers platform, no it ain't no BMW. but is is a good car. relax, it all depends on what perspective you are lookin from . TL is powerful, quiet, , good looking , but it is still a front driver, Car mags never were big on them, as front wheel drive has its limitations, . Live with it, if you love it enough said
11-29-2003, 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by youngbuyer
I used to subscribe to C/D, until a friend of a friend stated, "...we have to keep our sponsers happy" wink-wink. Try counting the number of advertisments.
I used to subscribe to C/D, until a friend of a friend stated, "...we have to keep our sponsers happy" wink-wink. Try counting the number of advertisments.
11-29-2003, 08:52 PM
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Response to JonDeutsch above
Hey JonDeutsch, thanks for summarizing your latest test drive in the TL.
Wow, now you've got me thinking that I'll need to take another test drive and concentrate on the torque steer issue .
You commented that the 6MT was "jumpy" and "a fight" when taking turns at high speeds...Can you comment on how high the speeds were? Did you notice this while taking turns in the 45-60mph range...etc...?
Also did you notice the torque steer present when accelerating from a stop or accelerating around and out of slow speed turns?
Wow, now you've got me thinking that I'll need to take another test drive and concentrate on the torque steer issue .
You commented that the 6MT was "jumpy" and "a fight" when taking turns at high speeds...Can you comment on how high the speeds were? Did you notice this while taking turns in the 45-60mph range...etc...?
Also did you notice the torque steer present when accelerating from a stop or accelerating around and out of slow speed turns?